One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yes.

What's more: CoA projection is not a completely different aspect of CoA. According to Hyogoro it's literally just coating hard and focused on a point of your body instead of letting it disperse elsewhere.

Different aspects of CoO are feeling presences, "hearing" people dying, etc, future sight is literally what we saw in Skypiea with extra seconds. If that offends, I don't know what to tell you.

That doesn't offend me, not sure why it would

 

[Nie Li]

That doesn't offend me, not sure why it would

I don't know, I'm high on red bull.

 

[john ellis]

I think people over rate FS a lot of this forum but it’s certainly not some basic technique that everyone uses. That said I think it’s useless against stronger opponents

 

[Pirate Queen]

Stamina in this series is tricky and is often used more as a hype tool than an actual measurable stat. If Oda wills it, two characters can fight for days on end, only to get downed in under an hour by other characters. Hell, Akainu is likely going to go down to Luffy in that time frame despite him and Kuzan popping off for 2 business weeks against one another. So, imo, stamina can't really be debated properly in the series.

I guess I'll go into more detail about my thoughts on Katakuri's potential performance in this fight while we're still on the topic:

The fight isn't going to be as simple as King just chilling in Flame On mode and fending off Katakuri with basic attacks. From what we've seen, King almost always used his stronger, named techniques when the fire on his back was off. That wasn't always the case, as with Imperial Wings, but all of his physical attacks had him go flame off. And it was during those attacks that Zoro managed to get the drop on King. Even early on in the fight, you can see Zoro's Tiger Trap interception break through more of King's mask, surprising him, likely implying that Zoro broke through his defenses even then. And it's during those attacks where Katakuri's FS will shine because Katakuri can more easily time his counters against King while his flames are off. The large majority of Katakuri's attacks against Luffy were basically counters to Luffy while he was still in the middle of his attacks. Of course, King could stick to the skies and his fire attacks, but I highly doubt that would be enough to take down Katakuri.

King's physical strength is his biggest asset and, while I think Katakuri's Power Mochi would allow him to not be completely outboxed given that that particular technique was still tossing around Boundman during it's short appearance during his and Luffy's fight, it may not be enough as we don't really have a good measure of it's upper limit. I think Mole would be where most of his offense would lie. Unfortunately, because he had to toss it away to give Luffy a fighting chance, we don't have much to go on for it. What little he did show makes me think it'd be enough to deal a significant blow to King when his defenses are down. His haki should definitely be up to snuff to do so. Side note, not confirmed, but as I mentioned earlier, I think the argument could be made that Katakuri may have AdCoC.



Those parallels feel intentional and that scene with Kaido was right before Luffy made his realization that you could infuse CoC in 1010.

Katakuri's Awakening would also be a pretty good boon as it would give him another method of potentially downing King without worrying about bypassing his Lunarian Defenses. Plus it opens him up to a variety of possible avenues to go at King once he's in range.

All that being said, King is not an easy target. I can easily see things quickly going downhill for Kata should King catch him off guard because King not only hits hard as hell, but he can quickly put on pressure with his rapid attacks. And while I think FS is often underplayed way too much, it is not without it's flaws. But the flaw isn't related to speed or stamina. It's simply that FS revolves around the sight of its user. Katakuri got caught off guard by Snakeman not because it was faster, but because it attacked from angles he didn't initially think it would attack from. He got used to it eventually, but that is something King could take advantage of to throw Katakuri off. Especially once he makes use of his suit's hidden weapons. He would be able to keep Katakuri guessing with some attacks.

Earlier I mentioned that King sticking to the skies wouldn't be enough. I stand by that, but that'd still be a clear advantage for King as Katakuri would have no means to reach him (we don't have a clear idea of how far Katakuri's mochi can really stretch) but it would mitigate the effectiveness of Katakuri's awakening. And while I don't think the fire would be enough, King would still be the only one with a way of attacking at a range and holding that advantage for as long as he wants. It wouldn't be enough to take Katakuri down, but it gives him time and options to think of different approaches.

TL;DR: I think Katakuri's moveset is much more suited for King's than King's moveset is for Katakuri. FS especially gives Kata an advantage as it allows him to capitalize on counters, which would allow him to discover King's vulnerability easier than others and his spear gives him the offensive means to deal the necessary damage to potentially take King down.

I agree with everything but 1 point

Katakuri can summon rings of mochi from which to reach King in the air. Katakuri's stretching concern isn't necessary. He can just take the fight to the skies with King.

Peerless donuts mitigates King's flight advantage almost fully

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 14, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 14, 2023 ---

I think people over rate FS a lot of this forum but it’s certainly not some basic technique that everyone uses. That said I think it’s useless against stronger opponents

It's no more over-rated than King's Lunarian Defense

 

[Rmstorm]

I think people over rate FS a lot of this forum but it’s certainly not some basic technique that everyone uses. That said I think it’s useless against stronger opponents

Nope, it was extremely helpful for luffy agaisnt kaido. Even kaido was forced to use FS to counter luffy's FS Snakeman.

That is how powerful it is. It is the most powwrful ability in the story asidr for. ACOC shanks level.

 

[XXGenesis]

Katakuri is implied to have ACoC…….WtF are we really talking about now?!?! lol

If this wasn’t pulling something out of thin air. I don’t know what is. Like this is definitely a stretch. Face palm, lol One Piece bias is too funny at times.

I’ve never heard anyone anywhere allude to this. Which it’s an incorrect assumption and super funny to me because as I said I’ve yet to see a non bias argument and scenario made for Katakuri…

Everyone can create their own fan-fic with created favorable scenarios and decide who wins.

Logically Katakuri can’t hurt King & can’t dodge his Giant Flame Dragon, nor Is he blocking the attack…..For me it’s that simple King has the stronger final attack & its unavoidable. All the in between stuff is Fan fic.

 

[HereNThere]

Katakuri is implied to have ACoC…….WtF are we really talking about now?!?! lol

If this wasn’t pulling something out of thin air. I don’t know what is. Like this is definitely a stretch. Face palm, lol One Piece bias is too funny at times.

I'm more than willing to accept that I'm wrong, but I think the argument could be made given the apparent parallels in the panels. And I have my biases but these two characters aren't among them.

Katakuri can summon rings of mochi from which to reach King in the air. Katakuri's stretching concern isn't necessary. He can just take the fight to the skies with King.

Possibility, but Luffy wasn't exactly far from Katakuri when he used Peerless Donuts, so I don't want to assume Kata can just pop donuts up from any range.

 

[Pirate Queen]

If your biased enough to argue that King can't be hurt by Katakuri because of his flame on defense, then the counter bias is that King can't hit Katakuri due to future sight

Both are illogical when debating a fight between the two

both are equal. A fight between them is extremely close either way. All this "Neg diff" or Katakuri can't be hurt" is simply idiotic

 

[Fox666]

I don't get the argument of King being able to fly

He did not used that to his advantage against Zoro, presumably because King is not good at long-range attacks

 

[I Am Atomic]

King side's argument is: Always Fly, Flame mode on at all times, spam explosions and AoE full time
Forgets that's not how King fought against Zoro!

 

[Fox666]

If we are gonna base the discussion on creative ways the characters could use their abilities, rather than how they did it...

Katakuri spawn mid-air fists inside of King's body. Game over.

King? He brings an air tank and burns all oxygen, rendering everyone unconscious immediately.

 

[XXGenesis]

I don't get the argument of King being able to fly

He did not used that to his advantage against Zoro, presumably because King is not good at long-range attacks

I can provide the scans if you want.

King flew around shooting at Zoro, while Zoro uses his air slash & missed…

King was airborne blocking Zoro’s Dragon twister; King Flew through Onigashima pushing Zoro outside of Onigashima

Happy to bring up more instances of King flying; You know the petradactyl Zoan & Lunarian who can fly…its part of his fighting style, he wasn’t running around much.

King side's argument is: Always Fly, Flame mode on at all times, spam explosions and AoE full time
Forgets that's not how King fought against Zoro!

?? King did and does fly???

King’s only reason for resorting back to Flame off was because he was nervous about ACoC while Flamed on & wanted to end the fight quickly.

The explosion would only work once. But it’s convenient How Katakuri’s side argument ignores his state of mind needed to maintain ACoO or that it can be depleted and Luffy never tried to deplete.

King has AoE attacks….why should for the bias he not use it??

Katakuri has no answer for King’s Giant Flame Dragon….It comes down to that.

 

[I Am Atomic]

?? King did and does fly???

King’s only reason for resorting back to Flame off was because he was nervous about ACoC while Flamed on & wanted to end the fight quickly.

The explosion would only work once. But it’s convenient How Katakuri’s side argument ignores his state of mind needed to maintain ACoO or that it can be depleted and Luffy never tried to deplete.

King has AoE attacks….why should for the bias he not use it??

Katakuri has no answer for King’s Giant Flame Dragon….It comes down to that.

You missed my point. King's side says "All the time". Stay away from Katakuri by flying out of his range --> Flame mode on at all times --> Spam AoE all the time. The problem with this is..... that's not how King fought!
King CQC Zoro (fly all the time is out).
King turned off flame fighting Zoro even before he unlocked aCOC (flame mode on at all times is out).
King never spammed his AoE against Zoro (spam AoE is out).

Some of these statements, we do not even know if it's true. You are right about Katakuri cannot use aCoO forever, but neither can King spam his attacks forever. We know Katakuri can easily use his aCoO for 11 hours. Can King spam his Lava attack for 11 hours straight while flying with flame mode on and out of Kata's range?

You cannot make a character fight a certain way when they never fought like that.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Katakuri could maintain FS for 10+hours.

King couldn't stay in flame mode for 10 minutes


Anyone wanna do the math here?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 15, 2023 ---

Here is a scenario.

Katakuri fights luffy
Katakuri used future sight to predict Luffy's Gear 4
Katakuri attacked Luffy to prevent Luffy from getting time to summon Gear 4

Here a different scenario

Katakuri fights King
Katakuri uses Future Sight to predict King will summon fire dragon
Katakuri attacks King to prevent King from getting time to summon fire dragon


This fight is not as black and white as the King side of the argument is making it

 

[XXGenesis]

If your biased enough to argue that King can't be hurt by Katakuri becausee, then the counter bias is that King can't hit Katakuri due to future sight

Both are illogical when debating a fight between the two

both are equal. A fight between them is extremely close either way. All this "Neg diff" or Katakuri can't be hurt" is simply idiotic

Kudos for one of your Most logical post ever. Still Yet you’ve been the most illogical about FS on this forum lol…

It’s ok to have a bias.

@HereNThere triggered me a bit lol. With the whole ACoC. With a scenario painted a lot more in Katakuri’s favor.

I’ve said they were equal a while ago. Yes I agree “Bad takes” are neither can be hurt.

What I don’t think is idiotic when dealing with equal characters. Best attack vs Best attack similar to how it boils down in the manga…I vote King

But I’ll rest my case now.

 

[grey matter]

King side's argument is: Always Fly, Flame mode on at all times, spam explosions and AoE full time
Forgets that's not how King fought against Zoro!

It's better than "no FS = auto lose" for sure.


King was flying for like half of his combat, so it's a part of his fighting style. Not full time, but he can choose to fly whenever he wishes as required by the situation.
If he faces some scenario that requires him to stay in air, he would. He can just fly in air and spam fire attacks and flying slashes if he chooses to.



You do realize that 99% of King's panels were with him in his flame on mode, right?
In fact until the final chapter, we didn't even know that King could turn off his flames behind him. You wonder why? Cause King NEVER turned off the flames behind his back, it was on even when he was passively standing around.

What do you see Seraphim do here so far? 100% of ALL their panels so far are with flames on behind him.


You want to know WHY King was forced to use his speed mode?
Because of this page:

Spoiler

King is no longer invulnerable in his defence mode, KoH Zoro is capable of damaging him. Which is why he is blocking and avoiding, with Zoro tautning him. So he wanted to use speed to his advantage - to try blitz, to create distance between them, etc.
Why exclusively stay in defence mode, when that no longer offers him invulnerability?

Katakuri is implied to have ACoC…….WtF are we really talking about now?!?! lol

If this wasn’t pulling something out of thin air. I don’t know what is. Like this is definitely a stretch. Face palm, lol One Piece bias is too funny at times.

I’ve never heard anyone anywhere allude to this. Which it’s an incorrect assumption and super funny to me because as I said I’ve yet to see a non bias argument and scenario made for Katakuri…

Everyone can create their own fan-fic with created favorable scenarios and decide who wins.

Logically Katakuri can’t hurt King & can’t dodge his Giant Flame Dragon, nor Is he blocking the attack…..For me it’s that simple King has the stronger final attack & its unavoidable. All the in between stuff is Fan fic.

We have seen this many times already.

The bias being so much is the reason why I have slowly reduced engaging, it's pointless.

Even when we are giving benefit of the doubt and entertaining the possibility that base Kaido blitz and one shotting Luffy who tied with Katakuri could be an outlier. It isn't returned.
I mean, we can really just easily argue that King/Marco are even in a different tier all together if we are to take feats at face value.


King doesn't even need to use his fire dragon.
You remember him exploding upon Zoro hitting him? That shit created an explosion as big as the entire onigashima castle.

Spoiler

Fuck me if Katakuri is tweaking his body around that AOE.
It is perfectly reasonable to argue that Katakuri can see these AOE attacks with future sight and tank with armament, or some mochi if he's using awakening, But you lose any credibility you have when you suggest that King doesn't have means to tag Katakuri other than his speed mode, cause he clearly does.

Katakuri's FS + mochi body combo is broken only against pure CQC fighters with no AOE. Just because he could dodge everything from Luffy doesn't mean others don't have capability to tag him.

 

[Fox666]

Zoro was fine after taking that explosion at point-blank, so I don't think it's that powerful for someone at commander-level.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Just to point out, if King was so vastly above Katakuri that there is 0% chance King loses, the majority of people in the Fandom wouldn't think it's an extreme diff in Katakuri's favor. That is a fact.

People are just dickriding King's lunarian defense to the point that he literally wins against any YC1 not named Zoro.

Now with the latest showing of the Seraphim, we are seeing just how poorly King utilized his defense tells us Katakuri would have ample opportunity to win in a 1v1.

From what we know now, if King had just kept his flames on during that final attack... Zoro wouldn't have beaten him so easily

 

[grey matter]

Zoro was fine after taking that explosion at point-blank, so I don't think it's that powerful for someone at commander-level.

Zoro's armament haki is on a completely different tier.

Look at what all he managed in rooftop.
BM sensed so much armament haki in his sword that she asked Kaido to dodge. His advanced armament haki even blocked hakai for a duration of time and partially deflected it.

This is simply circular reasoning of "If Zoro can, X can too" that we see all the time.
No, rooftop Zoro's armament haki is at least comparable to rooftop Luffy's armament haki based on what we have seen. Rooftop G4 Luffy's armament >> Katakuri's armament ~ WCI G4 Luffy's armament haki



If we want to really go with that, let's go there.
BASE Kaido ONE SHOTTED pre Udon Luffy, who at minimum was as tanky as Katakuri.
While Zoro multiple attacks from Yonkos in rooftop, including Hakai.
Rooftop Zoro's and Katakuri's durability aren't comparable.

Plus, it wasn't that Zoro didn't get damaged, he got damaged but tanked it. He says if he put haki there a second later, he would've been one shot.
King slowly kept dealing chip damage to Zoro, and by the end of the fight Zoro was at like 10-20% his HP.
Clearly, the chip damage added up considerably towards the end.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Lunarian defense = auto lose
Future sight = auto lose

Both arguments are equally foolish