I mean, sorry. I acknowledged it's unconfirmed. I guess I should've also mentioned that I don't take it into consideration during hypotheticals because of that.
Either way, I said from the jump that I was arguing for Katakuri's potential performance in the bout. Hell, despite King getting a fair share of arguments, I tossed in other feats of his that I didn't see being brought up to help his case on his performance. So, honestly, I'm a bit bamboozled to how the discussion suddenly became about biases. Especially when it's a discussion on why we think these characters could win against one another. What's the point of debating a versus topic in the power level thread otherwise if all we just chalk up the opposing arguments as biased and discount them seemingly immediately?
You've got a point here.
We all have our biases that we don't realize until we do, but the ones we were talking about were assumptions of disingenuity.
I observe that vast majority of arguments for Katakuri comes from him being YC1, and the headcanon assumption of YC1s being all relative. This reasoning clearly doesn't hold up when we look a bit deeper into it, cause
at least half of the "YC1s" are not in same tier.
But looking back, I also used to be one of those guys who had the same headcanon of 'YC1s are in same tier', and I certainly wasn't pushing that viewpoint while believing that it was a lie, I genuinely believed that. It took me a while to come out of that mindset, like it does for many other scenarios where I realized the faults of my viewpoint (like for example me eventually coming to realize admirals are at the very least giving Yonkos a run for their money......even before the whole GB stuff.......while I used to think it was a mid-high diff for Yonkos a couple of years ago)
So, my mistake assuming intentional bias/disingenuity. I should grant others the benefit of doubt instead of assuming they are being disingenuous.
But many of the frustrations that I and others like
@XXGenesis are talking about, comes from the appearance that Katakuri pushers aren't giving an inch and keep repeating the same talking points without properly addressing the counter arguments. It's almost like we are talking to a brick wall. (touching more on this later)
While we even grant the possibility of Oda's inconsistencies to Katakuri. Because quite honestly, the debate
instantly ends if we take the pre Udon feat of base Kaido blitzing and one shotting pre Udon Luffy at face value.
*********************************
Unless spoilers (which I don't read) reveal something else, the previous chapter had Zoro implying the opposite. AdCoC still wasn't enough for Zoro to pierce King with his flames on.
King was blocking and avoiding his attacks, with Zoro taunting him why.
The above page holds no narrative meaning if Zoro couldn't damage King in his defence mode.
In fact, the entire narrative of Zoro awakening advanced conqueror's haki is null and void, if it wasn't even required to defeat King.
Now..........is it possible that Oda retconned this part? Maybe.
But I believe there is a reason why Oda hasn't made Luffy or Zoro use advanced conqueror's haki yet in the Egghead arc yet. This is simply the PIS that Oda pulls to extend the arc to buy time, until Kizaru and Saturn arrives. Zoro didn't even realize Seraphim looked like Lunarians, and it got played off for a gag.
Giant Imperial Flaming Wings seems to be a rather straightforward attack. Yes, given it's magma like nature and how Oda treats that level of flames, it would be able to do damage to Katakuri's real self, but, and pardon me for assuming, I figured since the general consensus seemed to have been reached earlier in the discussion that Katakuri would be able to dodge Tempura Udon, it'd be agreed that he'd likely be able to dodge this as well. It's not a tracking attack from what we saw, nor is it super fast. Zoro was capable of dodging the smaller version and the larger version was just that, a larger version. I don't see Katakuri going down to it due to his speed and his fruit. In my opinion, it wouldn't be worth it to try and get Katakuri to both stay still and become vulnerable when overpowering him with his strength would likely be the better route.
Here is the issue here.
I presume you are talking about the imperial fire dragon final attack. That dragon is as big as Kaido, i.e it is a city block in size. Zoro's size in that page in comparison, he was like an ant in that AOE.
Katakuri can't tweak his body around that. The way he dodges attacks is by tweaking his logia-esque mochi body. This means of dodging attacks clearly won't work when the AOE is big enough.
The tempura udon (that is him stretching his dino head right?), yeah obviously Katakuri dodges it. It's a fast but straightforward attack without any AOE, FS counters it easily.
As for the pressure, both I and @DeadlyBeast gave our arguments for how Katakuri would potentially deal with King's invulnerability. He's a counter-heavy fighter due to FS. King's stronger, physical-based attacks, all have him doing full force with his flames off to increase his momentum and his power. His flying blades, Tankyudon, Tempurdon, Barizodon all have him turn his flames off to attack. Aside from Tempuraudon, for the reasons already stated, I think those techniques would be the best option for putting Katakuri down because of the power and speed behind them. At that same time, he also leaves himself open for counters. While I think Katakuri would be able to potentially eek out a win, I do not think it'd be easy and, again, as I acknowledged in my original argument, if King were to gain the momentum, it'd be easier for him to keep it than for Katakuri to keep it.
This simply isn't true.
This is what we are talking about when we saw Katakuri side doesn't listen and just keep repeating the same point.
Defence mode King isn't simply a swordsman. He also has high AOE with his fire.
King creates explosions with this AOE:
This explosion has an AOE as big as the entire omigashima castle!!
It is perfectly reasonable to argue that Katakuri can see these AOE attacks with future sight and tank with armament, or some mochi if he's using awakening, But you lose credibility when you suggest that King doesn't have means to tag Katakuri other than his speed mode, cause he clearly does.
*********************************************************
Narratives:
Just want to discuss this from a narrative perspective, without focusing much into the feats themselves.
The narrative in WCI was to have Luffy finally reach Katakuri's level. This is precisely why Oda had Katakuri say "I no longer view you as my inferior"
While I do believe that Katakuri was still a bit stronger than post WCI Luffy, he was still in same tier. This is manga canon
While it is technically headcanon, it could be argued that maybe the base Kaido blitz and one shot of pre Udon Luffy was an outlier.
Let's assume this is the case, because otherwise Katakuri's feats are so outdated that it makes the discussion completely pointless in my eyes.
Let's say it shouldn't have been a one shot.
The fact still stands that the narrative of pre Udon Luffy was that, he was an irrelevant insect to Kaido. This was the clear narrative that Oda wanted to portray here.
This is exactly why Oda had Kaido say "
what changed between Udon and now" after getting hit by Luffy once. And gave him the famous visions of his "5 top". What is narratively signified here is the
massive powercreep that happened in the 2-3 weeks since then.
Now look at how Zoro was portrayed in rooftop.
- The wind slash attacks that were deadly to scabbards, that shook even the commander level characters like Kyoshiro, Cat/Dog....... was fodder that wasn't even worth Zoro's time that he casually swatted away with a single sword.
- had so much armament haki in his sword that BM sensed it and asked Kaido to dodge. Was the only attack in rooftop which got this reaction from her. And Kaido dodged it.
- countered Kaido's dragon twister with his own dragon twister. Injured Kaido, and the haki from that attack got him thinking of Oden (while in fact it's just Zoro's haki)
- made an advanced armament haki barrier that blocked and partially deflected hakai. That attack was likely the strongest attack we saw in the arc with the exception of BG and flame drum dragon.
- while injured and in his last legs, used Asura, won a clash and scarred Kaido with presumably an advanced conqueror's haki leak. Maybe this can be discounted since it technically shouldn't be counted for rooftop Zoro's intentional power (i.e power that he can willingly use).
Kaido, after he presumed he had defeated Luffy, Zoro and Law: "What a shame! We could've conquered the world together if you joined me"
Showing how much he grew to respect their power.
Rooftop as standalone, Zoro's portrayal was below nobody's except maybe Luffy's
In what way is this guy
even remotely portrayed on the same level as pre Udon Luffy that was narratively an insect to Kaido, let alone
BELOW pre Udon Luffy?
Even if we go by feats, rooftop Zoro is in a completely different tier in all stats except CQC in G4 (due to FS)
Both narrative/portrayal and feats suggest rooftop Zoro is different from pre Udon Luffy. Who in turn is Katakuri tier, based on both narrative/portrayal and feats
Three major narratives involved in Zoro vs King fight:
- lunarian narrative
- narrative of Zoro awakening conqueror's haki
- formation of Beast Pirates and Joyboy hints through flashback
Coming to the fight exclusively, the narrative clearly was that King was stronger than rooftop Zoro, to the point where Zoro needed to awaken advanced conqueror's haki.
King could not only fight Zoro in combat as a fighter roughly equal to him, but also was invulnerable to anything thrown at him.
If Zoro didn't
need to awaken advanced conqueror's haki in that fight, that part of the narrative loses all meaning.
Further narrative on King's power.
It is his genes that form the core of the Seraphim. Who, even as just teenagers whose lunarian durability is implied to be not near the peak by Vegapunk, are yet to take any damage in the Egghead arc so far.
And they aren't even good fighters like King who could match rooftop Zoro in combat, they are basically damage sponges that are getting smacked around left and right, completely carried by King's genes.
*********
I would like to respond to some of
@DeadlyBeast post as well, but this had gone too long already lmao. Another time.
