Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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Not sure how the logic there works. Why would it kill moria? because it stretches and maims it's bones? But... in that case, it would do the same to a corpse.
I always interpreted this as Oda having his cake and eating it too or PIS on Moria's part. The fact Oars lost by his spine breaking making him unable to move implies his body still needed to function even if he didn't feel pain. At the same time we saw Moria made Oars stretch his arms multiple times in ways that should have shattered all the bones and made his arms useless. However, it's clear that Oars was able to move his arms without issue after implying his bones were perfectly fine. Does that mean Moria could do the same with himself and other zombies without consequence and PIS stopped him? Or is Oda bending the rules and saying its okay to stretch zombie body since they don't feel pain but forgetting structural damage they'd incur if that happened to keep the plot going?
Bolded part:
Nah the SHs had tough uphill battle but they could have managed to defeat Oars if it wasn't for Moria. Even without the help of Salt or Luffy, they would have won.
Oars was a huge zombie which gave him the advantage of being able to continue getting up, he didn't feel pain AND even when his bones were broken he could still talk but not move.
The SHs would've won for sure if it wasn't for Moria intervening and using moves similar to Luffy's rubber abilities.
Moria's shadow was able to stretch Oars that's how. It wasn't until after Moria stepped in that the tables turned for the SH's and Oars was winning.
At the same time we saw Moria made Oars stretch his arms multiple times in ways that should have shattered all the bones and made his arms useless. However, it's clear that Oars was able to move his arms without issue after implying his bones were perfectly fine.
This could kind of be like how BM didn't use aCoC in her fight. Moria if he had fought seriously and not relied so much on others could have been a far more formidable foe.
This could kind of be like how BM didn't use aCoC in her fight. Moria if he had fought seriously and not relied so much on others could have been a far more formidable foe.
He could have been stronger but not as strong or near Kaido's level as many people believe he once was.
Moria at his prime was probably YC3 at best even then I have a hard time believing that....
Him fighting Kaido but then Kaido killing all his crew and causing Moria PTSD for over 20 years, tells me Moria was no way close to his level.
He could have been stronger but not as strong or near Kaido's level as many people believe he once was.
Moria at his prime was probably YC3 at best even then I have a hard time believing that....
Him fighting Kaido but then Kaido killing all his crew and causing Moria PTSD for over 20 years, tells me Moria was no way close to his level.
I always interpreted this as Oda having his cake and eating it too or PIS on Moria's part. The fact Oars lost by his spine breaking making him unable to move implies his body still needed to function even if he didn't feel pain. At the same time we saw Moria made Oars stretch his arms multiple times in ways that should have shattered all the bones and made his arms useless. However, it's clear that Oars was able to move his arms without issue after implying his bones were perfectly fine. Does that mean Moria could do the same with himself and other zombies without consequence and PIS stopped him? Or is Oda bending the rules and saying its okay to stretch zombie body since they don't feel pain but forgetting structural damage they'd incur if that happened to keep the plot going?
It’s implied that his shadow control ability was able to warp their form, similar to Gomu gomu. When his back was broken, it was physical damage, but when he stretched with Moria’s shadow abilities, it was more like metaphysical manipulation.
He could have been stronger but not as strong or near Kaido's level as many people believe he once was.
Moria at his prime was probably YC3 at best even then I have a hard time believing that....
Him fighting Kaido but then Kaido killing all his crew and causing Moria PTSD for over 20 years, tells me Moria was no way close to his level.
Oh yeah I don't think Moria was ever as strong as Kaido. In my mind Moria's experience likely is akin to Kid pirates with both Kaido jumped off that sky island and more recently Shanks OHKO. It was very likely a one way slaughter where Moria and crew didn't stand a change. I even imagine Moria survived and escaped using his disappear ability to swap out with Doppleman same way he did in Marineford.
I think Moria at his best was a strong NW pirate who never made it to upper echelon (YC or better). However I do think we are about to witness a retcon with him and he will return as YC level fighter.
It’s implied that his shadow control ability was able to warp their form, similar to Gomu gomu. When his back was broken, it was physical damage, but when he stretched with Moria’s shadow abilities, it was more like metaphysical manipulation.
I've always taken that scene differently. Moria explicitly says that even knocking him out won't return the shadows, he has to do it purposefully. And yes, there are a couple of times where he lets them slip out involuntarily, but his control over the remaining shadows that fueled Shadow Asgard seemed to have a lot more to do with Moria giving up in earnest. His last words before letting the shadows go essentially amounted to "Good luck in the New World asshole, hope you go through what I went through!" And without being the MC with contagious plot armor, Luffy absolutely would have been a repeat of Moria's loss to Kaidou.
I think Moria at his best was a strong NW pirate who never made it to upper echelon (YC or better). However I do think we are about to witness a retcon with him and he will return as YC level fighter.
No way. Imo Moria was upper YC before losing his ambition, and as a result, his haki. Otherwise why would it be notable at all for him to have lost to Kaidou in the past if he was just some common schmuck. Also Blackbeard trying to recruit him seems to suggest that too.
I think Moria at his best was a strong NW pirate who never made it to upper echelon (YC or better). However I do think we are about to witness a retcon with him and he will return as YC level fighter.
I'm going with the possibility Moria's decrease in power was much more substantial than we initially thought. Now, it's unlikely he was on Kaido's level when they fought back then, but he had to have done something substantial that made him stand out to be offered the role out of all the other candidates.
No evidence to suggest that Moria had any type of Haki. I think it's a reach to say he was YC3 level when he fought Kaido but nothing higher.
Current Moria is strong GL wise but in the NW he may be Yonko Executive level. I don't see him beating any of the Flying 6.
Honestly it makes me wonder how pirates were Able to become warlords and why them? They range from low Yonko Executive level to possibly Yonko level (Mihawk). Besides the fact that Alabasta Crocodile was weak in today's terms, let's go with MF Crocodile.
My list of the OG Warlords
Mihawk
Doffy
Kuma
Hancock/Jimbei
MF Crocodile
Moria
Hard for me to decide whose stronger from Kuma, Hancock and Jimbei.
Hancock only has her stone-turning hax ability but her other stats I don't see her above Jimbei or Kuma. Jimbei is weaker than Doffy, after seeing Doffy in Dressrosa, I don't see how Jimbei could handle him.
I got nothing on Kuma but I don't see how he is stronger than Doffy, he may very well be but for the time being I don't see it. Ivankov did make a statement that implied he was strong or stronger than Kuma at MF. Don't know how to take it but yeah.
MF Crocodile held his own at MF better than Moria.
I always interpreted this as Oda having his cake and eating it too or PIS on Moria's part. The fact Oars lost by his spine breaking making him unable to move implies his body still needed to function even if he didn't feel pain. At the same time we saw Moria made Oars stretch his arms multiple times in ways that should have shattered all the bones and made his arms useless. However, it's clear that Oars was able to move his arms without issue after implying his bones were perfectly fine. Does that mean Moria could do the same with himself and other zombies without consequence and PIS stopped him? Or is Oda bending the rules and saying its okay to stretch zombie body since they don't feel pain but forgetting structural damage they'd incur if that happened to keep the plot going?
Wasn't that explained by zombies not being able to feel pain, which is a double edged sword? Oars' arms could have been shattered, but because Oars wouldn't feel pain as a zombie, he didn't have to worry about his arms being useless. However, not being able to feel pain wouldn't mean he wouldn't need his body parts, and without his spine, how would Oars's body communicate with the brain?
But also, I think Moria being in Oars's body is what allowed him to do all those stuff, no? Or am I remembering wrong?
Wasn't that explained by zombies not being able to feel pain, which is a double edged sword? Oars' arms could have been shattered, but because Oars wouldn't feel pain as a zombie, he didn't have to worry about his arms being useless. However, not being able to feel pain wouldn't mean he wouldn't need his body parts, and without his spine, how would Oars's body communicate with the brain?
But also, I think Moria being in Oars's body is what allowed him to do all those stuff, no? Or am I remembering wrong?
I think that was the intent by Oda but it doesn't make sense with how Oars was defeated. If the back bones breaking made Oars immobile due to structural issue of needing bones to support the body and not because Oars felt pain, the same would apply to his arms. Oars arms were stretched and twisted in ways that would shatter all the arm bones, tear muscles & nerves etc, so even if he didn't feel pain the arm would be non functional in the same way his body became immobile after the back bones breaking.
The fact that Oars arms were unaffected may indicate that the changes to a body as a result of manipulating shadows don't have any impact on its integrity. This is similar to how Luffy's awakened powers can rubberize other peoples bodies without causing them injury from the stretching itself.
Lol why are you getting salty with Garp, of all people? I have absolutely no idea how you keep on hating every character that isn’t Zoro tbh. Shouldn’t you be glad that we’re finally seeing Shanks and Garp fight?
How can you even enjoy this manga when the only character you care about has a feat once every 70 chapters or so, and a proper fight only once an arc?
Lol why are you getting salty with Garp, of all people? I have absolutely no idea how you keep on hating every character that isn’t Zoro tbh. Shouldn’t you be glad that we’re finally seeing Shanks and Garp fight?
How can you even enjoy this manga when the only character you care about has a feat once every 70 chapters or so, and a proper fight only once an arc?
I predict Aokiji probably will mid-diff Garp in this fight. Garp is definitely strong but I think his age will get to him very quickly once the fight gets serious.
I predict Aokiji probably will mid-diff Garp in this fight. Garp is definitely strong but I think his age will get to him very quickly once the fight gets serious.
I espect Blackbeard commanders to gang up on Garp. I don't think Prince Grus and the others are a match for them. On top of that Blackbeard himself may appear.
The travesty of Wano arc is Big Mom's loss making people think Kid & Law are relevant against Admirals/Yonko in a 1v1 fight. It took them 2v1 and lots of PIS to get there W so as soon as they are no longer favored by Oda they get the treatment they were meant to get against BM. Luffy is the only one that came out of Wano actually at that level.
As we saw with Law, he was able to give a mid diff at least to Blackbeard in a 1v1. Obviously everyone knew Kid or Law can't 1v1 a top tier, but what happened against BB is basically what most of us expected - put up a decent fight but lose convincingly. I don't think anyone expected Shanks to outright one shot Kid lmao.
So this isn't quite a Law/Kid dehype. It is moreso Shanks hype, rather than anything else.
Let's look at things from a broader perspective.
- Shanks doesn't have the durability of Kaido or BM
- Shanks is a swordsman, and they are known for hitting above their tier generally speaking
Put these two together, and we can start seeing why Shanks one shotted Kid.
What Shanks lacks in durability and versatility of a DF, he makes up for with his haki, CQC and attack power.
Also, let's not use this to somehow take BM above where she was shown to be in the manga.
She used all her ultimate moves, and Law/Kid tanked them. We outright saw Kid tank an Ikoku attack, as well as Misery (which seems to be her trump card).
She has physical strength and haki on par with Kaido (at least pre drunken modes), she's around same level in overall durability too. But her CQC, speed and attack power is the lowest we have seen for a top tier fighter.
Let's simply rank BM based on what the manga showed us, instead of attributing all her anti-feats to plot or CIS/PIS or whatever. Yes, some instances are that, but not all.
Scale Attack: Causes a massive wind storm that destroys everything around him. I'm essentially envisioning what he did in Loguetown on steroids with tornadoes all over the place too.
1V1 Attack: If he really is a wind user I'd argue for a blast of air imbedded with aCoC that is so powerful that it ends up defeating YC2+ level fighter in a single hit.
Mihawk:
Scale Attack: He cuts an island in half, splitting the very earth (similar to what WB did in Marineford). Alternatively he splits the ocean revealing the sea floor like Pirate Queen alluded to earlier.
1V1 Attack: Honestly as a swordsmen I'd expect some attack that is similar to Kamusari where its a powerful cut imbued with aCoC. In my mind him cutting Jozu in diamond form and KOing him would be a flex.
I think the Admirals have all had their flex scenes before since all of them have fought enough.
I think Dragon's power will be "atmosphere" rather than just "wind". A conqueror's haki clad tornado + lightning storm would be hype AF. It would be like dragon twister, but bigger and with lightning all over it.
Who do you think Dragon will flex against? I think Oda will choose to flex on Greenbull, but I hope not. Greenbull desperately needs some hype, even though his feats are top tier his portrayal took a hit cause Oda wanted to sellout for some movie, Dehyping the same guy again wouldn't sit well with me. I am trying to think of someone else who is powerful enough to hype while also expendable (he achieved his goal), but can't figure it out.
For Mihawk, I can see him cutting the entire atmosphere in half as his flex. Basically doing what two top tier advanced conqueror's haki users do when clashing, but split it as a result of one of his attacks. Splitting the ocean in half also could be pretty hype as well.
Cutting an island in two wouldn't be a hype moment, S-Hawk almost did that, Mihawk did an equivalent feat in Marineford too, so did Zoro back in Dresrossa arc.
Who do you think Mihawk will flex against? I can see Oda use Fujitora or Magellan, when Cross Guild is going to Impel Down to break out Doffy/Weevil. Again, for same reason as I mentioned for Dragon, Fujitora hopefully isn't that guy. Though he wasn't humiliated like Greenbull, he doesn't have solid feats either (flexing on Dresrossa SHs who are fodder to him doesn't count). Cutting Jozu would be hype AF, but both these are "good guy pirates", I don't see how and why narratively this could happpen,
Once Mihawk goes all out and get feats, we are about to see one of the biggest meltdowns and copium we have seen in the fanbase. It will be worse than "Mihawk is YC1+" clown takes that got completely destroyed by chapter 1058. Can't wait for it lmao.
These are all good points and were heavy contributors to BMs loss. However, I do think there is PIS involved too since she didn't use any aCoC against Kid/Law and there as also a point where she had both of them on the floor but she didn't finish them off. Kaido also had some PIS but none to this degree.
Like I said, we simply can't attribute every feat of Law/Kid, or anti-feat of BM, to CIS/PIS/plot.
The only blatant CIS is BM turning her back on Kid/Law when they were down. Everything else, is part of the package of villains in OP, not specifically BM.
We kept seeing fodders get knocked out around her, meaning BM was using advanced conqueror's in some of her attacks at least. It's moreso Oda never bothering to show them IMO
