One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[albertwv]

We're gonna find out how strong Kuma really is/was, so any REASONABLE guesses on how strong he is?

I always thought he was YC3 level, the same as Doflamingo. He doesn't have any feats that would put him above Doflamingo IMO. We can assume he was equal to Ivankov in strength or near due to Ivankov's interaction to him in Marineford. I don't rate Ivankov that high, definetly not stronger than Doffy but who knows nowadays.
I think his teleporting ability can be countered by CoA and maybe even ACoO. CoA to counter when he touches you (even better ACoA so he doesnt actually get to touch you) and ACoO (or proficient CoO) to see his next location whenever he teleports himself.
Pre TS Zolo was able to cut him enough to show skin and bleed just an example.

I think Monster Trio with maybe even including Jimbei could 1v1 Kuma.

 

[XXGenesis]

@albertwv
I was gonna troll a few days ago and say he’s Admiral lv because he dodged Akainu’s Hell Hound while heavily damaged…….

Trolling aside. Kuma I say is YC1.

 

[Ricko]

Really depend if he can use Haki or not... As a human and as a pacifista
For the moment there is no proof he can use it.
Without Haki he can be YC3 at most, is DF would be mostly useless against strong Haki opponent.

 

[BlackTiger]

Powercreep

Besides, you can always excuse Kaido as fighting a gauntlet of opponents. Is it hard to believe that if you switched Luffy with Kizaru against Kaido, Kizaru would win in the end?

Gear 5 Luffy was also nerfed. Gear 5 used a lot of amount of energy to revive himself so Kaido and Gear 5 were equally nerfed. Fresh Gear 5 Luffy vs fresh Kaido would end up with Gear 5 winning in the end.

In SBS Oda also said Kaido>Akainu so Kizaru>Kaido doesn't make sense because that would mean Kizaru>>Akainu.

Nice try though.

Powercreep doesn't exist. It only exists in the trash bin. WCI Snakeman Luffy will blitz Kaido too just like Wano Snakeman Luffy did.

 

[Fox666]

fresh Kaido would end up with Gear 5 winning in the end.

How can you be 100% sure?

doesn't make sense because that would mean Kizaru>>Akainu.

So?

WCI Snakeman Luffy will blitz Kaido too just like Wano Snakeman Luffy did.

Or not

 

[BlackTiger]

How can you be 100% sure?

Already explained nerfed Luffy beat nerfed Kaido so fresh Leffy/Gear 5 Luffy will beat fresh Kaido

So?

That would mean Marco>>>WB because Kizaru<Akainu based on match up in MF that Akainu fought WB and Kizaru fought Marco. So Akainu>Kizaru just like WB>Marco.

Or not

Yes powercreep implies Kizaru>Kaido therefore Kizaru>Kaido>Akainu which does not make sense as I explained above why Kizaru cannot be>Akainu so it does not exist therefore WCI Snakeman blitzes Kaido if Wano Snakeman also did it.

No need to bend the logic to suit your agenda I know It's impossible to downplay Katakuri so bending the logic is the best you can do. All Snakeman feats blitzing Kaido is Katakuris feat as well. Kaido needs a lucky hit to beat Katakuri truth hurts I know.

 

[Fox666]

Power scaling changed a lot since Marineford

Back then, the Emperors weren't so ridiculously overpowered compared to their 1st commander

 

[BlackTiger]

Power scaling changed a lot since Marineford

Back then, the Emperors weren't so ridiculously overpowered compared to their 1st commander

No it doesn't. MF powerscaling is still valid. In fact, people have been using MF to wank Marco ignoring that Crocodile, Doflamingo equal also held top tier Mihawk.

Current emperors are also still not ridiculouly overpowered compared to Katakuri. Kaido, Big Mom need a lucky hit to beat Katakuri based on Snakeman vs Kaido. Yonko Luffy except Snakeman and Gear 5 get bodied by Katakuri. No need to deny the manga to push your agenda.

MF Whitebeard was the weakest yonko because he was sick. MF version of WB cannot beat Katakuri. Cannot use CoO. Much slower than Snakeman. He also cannot use aoe gura df because the aoe would kill his crews too so MF version of WB is doomed to lose to Katakuri.

There is no logical explanation why Kizaru>Akainu. Powercreep only exists in the bin. WCI Snakeman and Katakuri blitz Kaido like Wano Snakeman did.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Power scaling changed a lot since Marineford

Back then, the Emperors weren't so ridiculously overpowered compared to their 1st commander

According to whom? Whiteboard was miles stronger than Marco in Marineford

 

[kkck]

Back during marineford at the very least marco, jozu and vista were capable of holding their own against admirals or mihawk. it was clear that WB was stronger than any of them of course but it is a completely different scenario from how katakuri or king were pretty much shit for big mom or kaido. Of course, the actual implication here would be that WB's commanders were a decent bit stronger than other yonko's top 3. And odds are that some of WB's other commanders could have been as strong as marco, vista and jozu considering that 20 years back someone had to function as WB's top commanders (I am guessing fosa and rakuyo).

 

[BlackTiger]

Back during marineford at the very least marco, jozu and vista were capable of holding their own against admirals or mihawk. it was clear that WB was stronger than any of them of course but it is a completely different scenario from how katakuri or king were pretty much shit for big mom or kaido. Of course, the actual implication here would be that WB's commanders were a decent bit stronger than other yonko's top 3. And odds are that some of WB's other commanders could have been as strong as marco, vista and jozu considering that 20 years back someone had to function as WB's top commanders (I am guessing fosa and rakuyo).

Crocodile had better feat than Marco, Jozu and Vista. Holding his own against Mihawk is a better feat than holding Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji. Mihawk is guaranteed to be stronger than any admirals because of his relationship with Shanks+EOS material bonus.

Jozu was in MF to hype Doflamingo. Vista was in MF to hype Ronse. These 2 should prove they are stronger than Doflamingo first.

Its the opposite Kaido was pretty much shit to Katakuri. Look how Snakeman embarrassed him. Even with FS and speed boost by copying Snakeman pattern he still looked like shit compared to Katakuri against Snakeman.

Marco already got negged by the weakest admiral hypetool King.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 10, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 10, 2023 ---

And odds are that some of WB's other commanders could have been as strong as marco, vista and jozu considering that 20 years back someone had to function as WB's top commanders (I am guessing fosa and rakuyo).

Daifuku already embarrassed Sanji though. Which veteran can embarrass post TS monster trio?

 

[Ricko]

Crocodile had better feat than Marco, Jozu and Vista. Holding his own against Mihawk is a better feat than holding Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji. Mihawk is guaranteed to be stronger than any admirals because of his relationship with Shanks+EOS material bonus.

Jozu was in MF to hype Doflamingo. Vista was in MF to hype Ronse. These 2 should prove they are stronger than Doflamingo first.

Funny how you can say something and it's opposite in the same post .
If I follow your logic :

Crocodile > Marco because of Clash with Mihawk = Shank
Vista who clash with Mihawk < Doflamingo
As Doflamingo clash and seem superior to Crocodile = Mihawk = Shank
Doflamingo > Shank ???

 

[BlackTiger]

Funny how you can say something and it's opposite in the same post .
If I follow your logic :

Crocodile > Marco because of Clash with Mihawk = Shank
Vista who clash with Mihawk < Doflamingo
As Doflamingo clash and seem superior to Crocodile = Mihawk = Shank
Doflamingo > Shank ???

I didn't say that. My point is any YC tier can clash with casual top tier. If Crocodile can clash with casual Mihawk then Doflamingo can too which means any of Sweet Commanders can also stall top tier like Mihawk WBP commander feats in MF did not put them above BMP or BP because these are just Doflamingo's equal (Crocodile) tier feat.

Casual Mihawk = Casual Shanks = Marco => Doflamingo = Crocodile => Jozu = Vista.

Doflamingo and Marco are on the same tier as Marco, Jozu, Vista.

 

[Fox666]

My point is any YC tier can clash with casual top tier.

During Marineford arc. Not so much in Whole Cake Island or Wano arcs.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 10, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 10, 2023 ---

We're gonna find out how strong Kuma really is/was, so any REASONABLE guesses on how strong he is?

I always thought he was YC3 level, the same as Doflamingo. He doesn't have any feats that would put him above Doflamingo IMO. We can assume he was equal to Ivankov in strength or near due to Ivankov's interaction to him in Marineford. I don't rate Ivankov that high, definetly not stronger than Doffy but who knows nowadays.
I think his teleporting ability can be countered by CoA and maybe even ACoO. CoA to counter when he touches you (even better ACoA so he doesnt actually get to touch you) and ACoO (or proficient CoO) to see his next location whenever he teleports himself.
Pre TS Zolo was able to cut him enough to show skin and bleed just an example.

I think Monster Trio with maybe even including Jimbei could 1v1 Kuma.

I assume Kuma is less competent ever since his brain was replaced with a computer. But I don't know to which extend.

That Kuma appeared to be slightly behind Ivankov. Ivankov was defeated by Magellan, who supposedly is equal to Shiryu...

 

[BlackTiger]

During Marineford arc. Not so much in Whole Cake Island or Wano arcs.

It applies for post TS as well. Post TS Doflamingo will stall casual Mihawk as well. You have no argument Doflamingo cannot stall casual Mihawk like his equal Crocodile did. Any Sweet Commanders can stall casual top tier Cracker victim rival (Crocodile) proved it by stalling casual Mihawk.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 10, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 10, 2023 ---

If you don't want to use MF then you should stop using MF to wank Marco as well. He is just King victim to hype King before beaten by Zoro if you ignore MF and see his Wano portrayal.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 10, 2023 ---

During Marineford arc. Not so much in Whole Cake Island or Wano arcs.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 10, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 10, 2023 ---

I assume Kuma is less competent ever since his brain was replaced with a computer. But I don't know to which extend.

That Kuma appeared to be slightly behind Ivankov. Ivankov was defeated by Magellan, who supposedly is equal to Shiryu...

MF portrayal is still valid Akainu>Kizaru based on match up which destroys your powercreep agenda. It won't vanish just because you don't like it.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 10, 2023 ---

To make you understand, Cracker victim aka Doflamingo also can stall Kizaru like Marco did, stall Aokiji like Jozu did since Crocodile, Doflamingo equal already stalled someone stronger Mihawk therefore any Sweet Commanders can also stall Kizaru, Aokiji like Marco and Jozu did.

 

[XXGenesis]

The irony…Holy Hell.

Lol Yes Many of YC can casually clash with Admirals & Yonkou’s as seen in MF & Dressrosa & Wano.

WBP hurting & holding of the Admirals.
The infamous Doffy vs Kizaru lol the noobs lol*
Zoro/Law/Luffy Clashing with Fujitora.
Queen clashing with Big Mom.
Scabbards vs Kaido.

All those little feats which go to support the weaker characters not the top tier; Get thrown out the window when we are talking about serious combat. They get stomped. Only a YC1+ should be able to put up a good fight and causing some damage before eventually losing…Characters like Zoro, Sabo, Law, Kidd, & Shiryu even Ben Beckman if i dare say so…

 

[BlackTiger]

Characters like Zoro, Sabo, Law, Kidd, & Shiryu

These characters lose to Katakuri much slower than Snakeman and lack FS and no Snakeman blitzing Kaido already shows Katakuri can push top tier to go serious. Rayleigh who stalled an admiral talked about FS users like they are on his level.

What more proof do you need? Do you need Snakeman to blitz Kizaru to admit that Katakuri can push top tier to go serious? Do you need Snakeman to neg diff a top tier to be convinced that no top tier can low diff Katakuri they need to put more effort to beat him?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 10, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 10, 2023 ---

The irony…Holy Hell.

Pot calling the kettle back you said YC1+ can push top tier to go serious.

Garp slam diffed Shiryu without using haki.
Shanks 1 shot Kidd and Killer.
While Snakeman blitzed Kaido pushing him to use FS. Snakeman pushing Kizaru to go serious to go max speed.

The irony to think that these 1 shot material characters like Kidd and Shiryu can push top tier to go serious yet Snakeman tier like Katakuri can't is beyond me.

 

[McNuss]

Just get rid of the effing YC term and use the WG's ranks that are more consistent and without many exceptions.*

YC are Zodiac VA/Masked CP0 level. Stronger than Base Commander VA and weaker than Admiral. Easy.

*I think the one thing has to consider is that you have to use the Sea train arc to place the CP units, which means Wanze is Commodore Level, stronger than the Captain T-bone, and Blueno, Kalifa, Kumadori, Fukurou and Nero are all Rear Admiral/CP 8 level. This can still easily make that CP9 the strongest ever with their quantity of agents. Pre-skip Lucci, Kaku and Jabra are all standard VA level.

I think this perspective really works throughly because it has evidence within the Manga.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Its the opposite Kaido was pretty much shit to Katakuri. Look how Snakeman embarrassed him. Even with FS and speed boost by copying Snakeman pattern he still looked like shit compared to Katakuri against Snakeman.

 

[grey matter]

We're gonna find out how strong Kuma really is/was, so any REASONABLE guesses on how strong he is?

I always thought he was YC3 level, the same as Doflamingo. He doesn't have any feats that would put him above Doflamingo IMO. We can assume he was equal to Ivankov in strength or near due to Ivankov's interaction to him in Marineford. I don't rate Ivankov that high, definetly not stronger than Doffy but who knows nowadays.
I think his teleporting ability can be countered by CoA and maybe even ACoO. CoA to counter when he touches you (even better ACoA so he doesnt actually get to touch you) and ACoO (or proficient CoO) to see his next location whenever he teleports himself.
Pre TS Zolo was able to cut him enough to show skin and bleed just an example.

I think Monster Trio with maybe even including Jimbei could 1v1 Kuma.

I think he is about as strong as Doflamingo, maybe a bit weaker.
If you remember, they were introduced together and Doflamingo had the higher bounty.

Doflamingo's portrayal was about the 2nd strongest shichibukai.

Doflamingo is not "YC3 level", IMO he is stronger than all commanders except the RHM (Marco/King/Kata).
He just got nerfed by the gamma knife, and lost to a Luff + Law with help from all the colosseum fighters.

Kuma falls in this range too. Weaker than all RHM, but probably stronger than all other commanders. I guess Jozu/Vista looked really impressive in marineford, so they could be stronger as well. Can't say for sure.

I think with Shichibukai in general, we should try seeing from Oda's perspective too.
He is giving them a LOT of respect nowadays. Mihawk's bounty may have been expected, since he's top tier relative to Shanks. But Crocodile's and Boa's bounty was wild. Even Jinbe has 1.1 billion. This reminds me of Marineford, where Crocodile's power level got retconned. Something similar is happening to shichbukai again, a retcon is likely a thing.
I wouldn't be surprised if Oda even wanks Doffy/Kuma/Croco above guys like Katakuri