Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
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Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
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Don't you think both matters though?
I put weight in both injury and effort.
You can put high effort and stomp, that wouldn't make the fight a high diff, would it?
What makes Kaku a high diff fight is that Kaku fought Zoro equally until Zoro pulled out Asura, and reduced Zoro to like 30% hp. I mean as a true equal, unlike Lucci where Zoro was sandbagging for most of the fight.
Zoro didn't treat Kaku like a joke in the end, where he casually dodged his final attack and one shotted him with a mid-end move. Zoro couldn't deal with Kaku's strongest attack at all, until he pulled out Asura. Asura was needed to overpower it.
As for Killer.
Yes, he was injured, but that was a result of external intervention. What would have been a mid diff fight if pure 1v1, turned into a high-extreme diff fight due to intervention from the Fox.
I am not talking about Pica, moreso talking about stuff that happened in Wano itself.
Check when Zoro got Enma and cut the cliff, check when Zoro was using attacks against Kaido and as well as against King (pre KoH)
You could see the smoke there too.
Smoke can be advanced armament overflow, or KoH. Rooftop Zoro used advanced armament only and was having smoke anyway.
And lastly, my main point here is the author intent:
Repeating myself:
is Lucci ~ smoke santoryuu Zoro ~ base nittoryuu Zoro?
How can this be the case, when the attack that took Lucci from almost full hp to like < 20% hp was a mid-end attack WITHOUT KoH ?
This means, Lucci cannot handle Zoro's attack power in base advanced conqueror's even.
How could he handle Zoro's attack power in KoH then, which it's OVERUSE of advanced conqueror's + advanced armament? Make it make sense.
Even if you are just weighing effort, Zoro put a LOT more effort into Kaku than to Lucci
Zoro went all out, used many named attacks (that Kaku tanked), and pulled out his strongest ability till date to finally put down Kaku.
Compare that to Lucci, who damn near got one shotted with the first instance of a mid-end named attack
Comparing effort:
- Zoro used 100% of his ability against Kaku. Kaku forced Zoro to evolve himself and awaken his Asura for the first time.
- Zoro used like 50% of his ability at max against Lucci, no bandana
Comparing injury:
- Kaku took like 70% hp from Zoro
- Lucci took 10% hp from Zoro at best, even that is giving Lucci benefit of the doubt cause we didn't see Lucci land any hit on Zoro.
I will disagree about Seraphim pushing Zoro more than Lucci though.
Lucci could actually hold his own in CQC. While, Seraphim are bums with poor combat skills and no haki. They are just damage sponges who probably got ping ponged by Luffy/Zoro/Lucci, who are likely alive only cause Oda made Zoro retarded and made him forget King (a skilled adult lunarian with strong armament haki) was afraid of getting hit by Zoro once he got advanced conqueror's haki.
In that case, why is Lucci a high diff for Zoro?
No KoH (as I explained above), no Asura. Down with the first named attack.
Zoro used less effort on Lucci, than Kaido on 1010 Luffy.
I am not saying Kaido took a lot of damage there though, but he did get hit many times. Say 1010 Luffy took 10% of his hp?
But Luffy used his strongest mode that severely exhausted him, and had clashes with Lucci?
Wouldn't that push it to a minimum mid diff, due to the effort Luffy used?
Pulling out G5 automatically prevents it from being a neg diff, because at that point the only thing he's holding back is advanced conqueror's and gigantification in G5.
To put down Lucci, he would even need far more effort than he used there, because Lucci tanked 3 named attacks with only llike 20% reduction in hp. Up with just a bandaid, showing no signs of lasting damage or exhausting.
You say Lucci didn't damage Luffy, but Lucci caused zero damage to Zoro as well by the way.
This is the double standard I am talking about.
Look at how Zoro treated Lucci when he got serious. Casually dodged Lucci's barrage of named attacks, exposing beyond any doubt that Lucci holding his own earlier was just Zoro sandbagging for the sake of plot. Damn near one shotted Lucci with a mid-end move without KoH, without bandana.
I mean this basically:
Why is it that one is (rightfully) interpreted as a stomp, while other isn't?
It goes way overboard with Zoro, cause he is target of multiple agendas.
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These posts does say a lot. Contrived shenanigans.........is the best way to describe Oda' egghead writing.
The issue is that Oda is having characters sandbagging for the sake of stalling for plot.
A lot of the nonsense that has happened in this arc can be explained by just two words - "stall piece"
Another MAJOR issue is the visual ambiguity when characters are using haki.
- basic armament, advanced armament and advanced conqueror's all produce lightning. So now it's impossible to say with certainty what's being used here.
- smoke comes out when Zoro overuses advanced armament haki, as well as in KoH (which is overuse of advanced armament and advanced conqueror's). Which makes it impossible to say with certainty what is being used here.
At this point, we have to use context to deduce what's being used here:
- G5 Luffy likely didn't used advanced conqueror's on Lucci, because that is drunken hybrid Kaido level power. It makes sense from context that G5 Luffy used advanced armament, cause Lucci himself uses it and Luffy likely used his own to counter that from Lucci.
- Zoro likely didn't use KoH, because we saw more of Lucci vs base nitoryuu Zoro. Plus, a mid-end advanced conqueror's attack without KoH critically wounded Lucci, meaning KoH is far beyond his paygrade to fight equally. It also makes sense from context that Zoro was likely using advanced armament haki the entire fight, since Lucci also uses it and Zoro likely used his own to counter that.
My opinion on Lucci's power level:
Lucci has top tier armament haki, strong CQC and mobility. He belongs in the same broad tier/spectrum as King, Marco, Katakuri, rooftop Zoro and current Sanji. Weaker than King/Marco for sure. Likely weaker than rooftop Zoro/current Sanji. While maybe stronger than Katakuri.
My opinion on Zoro's power level:
We are at least ready to have a conversation about Zoro vs new admirals and old legends, maybe weaker but probably can give them a run for their money. Should be weaker than OG admirals for sure, and definitely Yonkos and Oden, until he masters KoH.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
The "ribbon" was a nice catch, never noticed it.
Dude seems like he was like just 1 step away from awakening, if not awakened already.
His DF mastery was INSANE.
He's definitely the Frieza of the verse. One of the best observation haki in the verse till date, natural genius creating space ships, mastered DF to an insane degree. All the while there was ZERO challenges to push him to grow stronger.
Oda can retcon him to admiral level and I wouldn't complain lol.
What is your proof that Zoro used advanced Conqueror's and that Luffy didn't use advanced armament and only basic hardening?
If it is visuals, we saw tons of lighting in Luffy/Lucci as well. What makes some lighting advanced Conqueror's and other lightning just basic armament?
What is your proof that Zoro used advanced Conqueror's and that Luffy didn't use advanced armament and only basic hardening?
If it is visuals, we saw tons of lighting in Luffy/Lucci as well. What makes some lighting advanced Conqueror's and other lightning just basic armament?
Luffy is also clearly stronger than zoro, why does it matter if luffy used less of his power. It doesn’t matter since zoro scales below luffy anyway. Their attack power is somewhat close on normal haki based attacks, luffy still has a slight edge, and zoro doesn’t have anywhere near bargung, levels of destruction.
zoro and luffy still were ub damaged by lucci, both defeated him with some ease. Like yes, luffy is mid to high yonko tier. Zoro is yc1+ to low yonko tier. Lucci is yc3-1 tier and was comfortably defeated by both.
Luffy is also clearly stronger than zoro, why does it matter if luffy used less of his power. It doesn’t matter since zoro scales below luffy anyway. Their attack power is somewhat close on normal haki based attacks, luffy still has a slight edge, and zoro doesn’t have anywhere near bargung, levels of destruction.
zoro and luffy still were ub damaged by lucci, both defeated him with some ease. Like yes, luffy is mid to high yonko tier. Zoro is yc1+ to low yonko tier. Lucci is yc3-1 tier and was comfortably defeated by both.
Are you delusional or just pretending?
I never claimed with certainty that Luffy used advanced armament, I said it made sense from context (cause Lucci uses advanced armament and internal destruction). You on the other hand is treating the opinion of Luffy using basic hardening as a fact, which is headcanon.
Objectively speaking, both takes are headcanon and not confirmed in manga. Only difference is I'm aware that I am relying on headcanon, while you aren't. Zero self awareness.
You didn't answer, so I'll ask again. Answer this, haki expert: What should be the lightning shape/position for you to conclude Luffy used advanced armament, internal destruction?
Never denied Zoro using advanced armament.
In fact, I said that based on context it makes sense that Zoro used it.
However, the flame/smoke part was there only for a small duration of the fight. The rest of the fight was Zoro in nitoryuu without flames. So, did Zoro just stop using advanced armament and fight Lucci in base nitoryuu with basic hardening?
This is the issue with micro analyzing visuals from an inconsistent author, on a fight which he paid little to no attention than intention of stalling.
Comparing final attacks? Sure.
Overall? No, he didn't.
Luffy used his most exhausting form that is his peak, turned into an old man after the fight and then was tired for a considerable duration.
Luffy stomped Lucci faster because he put more effort, overall.
While, for most of the fight, Zoro was sandbagging for plot. Evidence for this is that when Zoro got more serious, he dodged Lucci's barrage of named attacks casually, and damn near one shotted him from almost full hp.
Lets even say that Zoro used advanced conqueror's in the final attack (which was always my position). Still a mid-end attack without KoH, without bandana
@grey matter bruh I don’t know why they making it a big deal of this it’s like zoro mid diffing lucci is some ppl mind thinking we are saying that zoro=luffy when that’s not the point. Most ppl with common sense and isnt just blind with the fandom of zoro and luffy knows that luffy>>zoro. in fact imo gear 4 luffy can beat lucci with Acoc imo like g5 was a overkill but we know oda did that for plot reasons just like zoro fight was stall for plot reasons. In fact this helps lucci case that he wasnt KOs by luffy zoro and even jimbei from their attacks. His durability is really good. Again this isn’t saying that zoro and jimbei=luffy.
Imo without no plot purposes
Luffy>lucci luffy low diffs
Zoro>lucci zoro mid diffs
Sanji/jimbei> lucci high diff jimbei or lucci probably a toss up leaning lucci extreme diff
Remove Luffy and Zoro out of the equation entirely from this scenario and replace them with any characters you want. Seems to boil down to what we as a collective consider a "mid diff" vs a "high diff"
Remove Luffy and Zoro out of the equation entirely from this scenario and replace them with any characters you want. Seems to boil down to what we as a collective consider a "mid diff" vs a "high diff"
Remove Luffy and Zoro out of the equation entirely from this scenario and replace them with any characters you want. Seems to boil down to what we as a collective consider a "mid diff" vs a "high diff"
I'd mark it as extremely high diff. It mirrored Luffy and Lucci's first fight, with Sanji's phone call mirroring Ussop's cheering. Bandanas and special forms not seen on panel be damned, for what reason would Zoro have *not* been trying his hardest in this fight? I don't think Oda portrayed it quite right, but it'd be a weird disservice to Zoro as a character (I say this as Zoro being one of my least favorite Strawhats) to assume dude was just farting around in that fight and wasting precious time when he knows there's a ticking clock.
I think people just have a hard time believing Lucci advanced that far, when I saw the same thing with Coby's development. They just... kept up relative to the protagonist, that's all.
I'd mark it as extremely high diff. It mirrored Luffy and Lucci's first fight, with Sanji's phone call mirroring Ussop's cheering. Bandanas and special forms not seen on panel be damned, for what reason would Zoro have *not* been trying his hardest in this fight? I don't think Oda portrayed it quite right, but it'd be a weird disservice to Zoro as a character (I say this as Zoro being one of my least favorite Strawhats) to assume dude was just farting around in that fight and wasting precious time when he knows there's a ticking clock.
I think people just have a hard time believing Lucci advanced that far, when I saw the same thing with Coby's development. They just... kept up relative to the protagonist, that's all.
It's also insane to cry like a baby because "Oda was just stalling Zoro vs Lucci for Plot"
Yes, sure we can say that... but that doesn't mean you read a version of One Piece where Zoro just ends the fight. We all read the same version of On Piece where Lucci and Zoro had a prolonged fight in which both were worn down to the point that Zoro's finisher came in clutch and even that didn't entirely take out Lucci and a 3rd party had to come in to seal the fight.
You don't see me whinning that Luffy and Kizaru were knocked of the fight for several chapters and cry "that doesn't count because Oda is stalling the plot so it doesn't count!!!" No, it happened. I didn't read some fantasy version of One Piece were Oda didn't stall The plot.
Oda stalling the plot doesn't mean the things that happened to stall the plot doesn't exist. They happened. Deal with it. Don't cry because your fav didn't one shot. Be mad at yourself for overhyping them when the signs have always been there.
I HATED that Coby suddenly got this massive power up randomly and I feel like it's a huge Oda asspull but I'm not using head Canon to say "This is Oda bs so it never happened"
You take the new information and reformulated your powerscaling around that.
Bro I was literally frothing at the mouth when Luffy went out of G4 and wrecked Doffy only for the stupid time limit to set in and him be useless for 10 minutes and needed the fodder gladiators to save him. I did not once say "Nope, Oda is stalling the plot for birdcage drama so it doesn't count. Once Luffy got serious in G4, Luffy put an end to it quickly so the fight was a low diff for Luffy."
That's just silly
Zoro was huffing, puffing, wheezing, outright saying he couldn't get past Lucci, Lucci taunting him by saying the crew would never leave him so he was a liability to the others and that still didn't get Zoro fired up enough to "take the fight seriously" but the fact was... Zoro was taking the fight seriously and it was two high tier fighters going back and forth until both wore eachother down enough to where one sighed the other. Lucci didn't use his strongest attacks either so should we argue that Lucci wasn't taking the fight serious? No, because that's not how fights work.
Besides, Lucci was the boss of his arc, so it's not like Zoro sucks or is weak for not being able to beat Lucci. Not to mention, if he wasn't going all out to beat Lucci, he'd be a horrible teammate because his team needs him. It's not like everything is happening discreetly, Zoro knew what was going on. Maybe he'd beat Lucci in a different circumstance, but as of now, he did not beat Lucci until Jinbei appeared.
At least we can say Luffy got stronger because he was finally able to do damage to Katakuri, even though Katakuri chose to lose, and we could say that Luffy could beat Katakuri after that fight.
Bro I was literally frothing at the mouth when Luffy went out of G4 and wrecked Doffy only for the stupid time limit to set in and him be useless for 10 minutes and needed the fodder gladiators to save him. I did not once say "Nope, Oda is stalling the plot for birdcage drama so it doesn't count. Once Luffy got serious in G4, Luffy put an end to it quickly so the fight was a low diff for Luffy."
That's just silly
Zoro was huffing, puffing, wheezing, outright saying he couldn't get past Lucci, Lucci taunting him by saying the crew would never leave him so he was a liability to the others and that still didn't get Zoro fired up enough to "take the fight seriously" but the fact was... Zoro was taking the fight seriously and it was two high tier fighters going back and forth until both wore eachother down enough to where one sighed the other. Lucci didn't use his strongest attacks either so should we argue that Lucci wasn't taking the fight serious? No, because that's not how fights work.
