Ranking the Princesses... and Princes

[zoradante1]

Just a thought - the ghost of the 13mo would be pretty strong if it were also Arie Horn... the first princess.... that maybe went crazy from princess-ification?

Both were 'firsts' and had to precede everyone else (if the 'ghost' was the first failure of the "initial" part of the process... that implies there was no standardized process at the time... having not actually been done before). Arie Horn is missing, and there's a ghost in the machine. What if, at the time of becoming a princess, Horn lost it and was briefly the 'first' princess but also failed the 'passing over' portion of the process fully.

Horn is then... shoehorned into the 13mo which makes her crazy, but is her runner up prize. Zahard makes lemonade out of lemons and then reports her missing. His 'deal' as it has been said was to keep all the other bishes just as crazy, and he'll let her live in a sort of limbo in the 13mo.

I dunno just shooting the shit

Ghost of 13m failed to become a princess.

On the other hand Arie horn succesfully became the first princess.

They aren't same

 

[Cinera]

In the picture you've uploaded, the sentence has been paraphrased differently. It says that she's one of the strongest princesses who was given one of the 13 Months Series. This is different from what you said. You're saying she's one of the most powerful 13-month princesses. I hope it doesn't need more clarification.

One of the strongest Princesses that was given a 13 Month series means that of the Princesses who were given a 13 Month Weapon, she's one of the strongest.

Ergo she's one of the most powerful 13 Month Princesses.

If you want, here's the Raws:

Here's an alternative translation by the person that does the weekly Raws translations:

She is one among the most powerful Princesses who have received one of the 13 Months Series in the outside world!!

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Ghost of 13m failed to become a princess.

On the other hand Arie horn succesfully became the first princess.

They aren't same

Oh, I know that's the official narrative.

It's probably as simple as that.

I was just doing some 'what if that's not the whole story' type of speculating.

Particularly because ghost is FIRST to fail, whatever that means, and Horn is missing.

I'm basically saying what if that process happened simultaneously - Horn becomes a princess. But the process warped her or something. She's technically a princess (or so the report goes) and technically a failure. She's then forced like the genie into the lamp in the 13mo, and reported missing as the 'official story' because Zahard's a dick.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2021 ---

Well, you changed the second sentence. I don't know Korean so I don't know if it's true to be written like that.

I see it like this: For example, we have 200 hundred princesses. 40 of them are much stronger than the other 160. Maschenny is one of 40 that was given a 13-Month Series. Those having 13-month go up one level higher. Among these Series wielders, there are, for example, 5 princesses who are also much stronger than the other wielders. Maschenny is one of the strongest princesses (one of 40 and a 13-month wielder) who was given one of the 13-month series (but not one of five).

I'm not saying she's not one of the strongest even among the Series wielders, I'm just saying that sentence doesn't show it canonically as Cinera said. Honestly, I don't know. Maybe, she is and maybe, not.

I changed BOTH sentences - to illustrate the multiple ways reading it.

I don't have a dog in this fight, just saying it can be understood 2 different ways the way you quoted it.

One is the way you understood it... I tried to explain it that way but I guess I failed.

But, also working is:

We have 200 princess. 40 of them are much stronger than the other 160. Mas is one of the 40 that was given a 13mo. Those with a 13mo are on another level. Among the series wielders, there are, for example, 5 princesses that are also much stronger than the other wielders. Mas is one of the strongest of those wielders (one of the 40 and a 13mo wielder) who was ALSO given one of the 13mo, and thus one of the 5 as well.

"she's one of the strongest princesses who was given one of the 13 Months Series."

The idea being that the above ^ is vague enough to have the 'grouping' understood 2 different ways (just strong princess and strong princesses that also have a 13mo - either way she got a 13mo, but the 13mo doesn't NECESSARILY prove to be a dividing line in of itself). It could have been rewritten for better clarity.



Again, I don't really care either way, enjoy your fight with Cin. I just personally think that sentence is vague is all.

 

[toil]

I want to

1. Where do the princesses that aren't given a rank (but are still rankers) fall in your opinion, and why? How do the deceased, sealed, or otherwise missing princesses compare in your opinion to the ones alive?

There's generally not much to go on, mostly b/c I think SIU has been pretty vague vis-a-vis how many ranker-tier princesses are typically around at any given moment. I have always assumed that at least some of the missing princesses will turn out to be either FUG or FUG-adjacent in some capacity, but that's purely speculation.

2. Where do you think the 'baby' princesses end up when fully matured, and why? (Include Yuri even though she's ranked, that's pretty much understood to be a temp stop as she's rapidly rising)

As an indirect answer, my mental model of the tower is that the upper-echelon high-rankers rarely-if-ever actually fight. Low-rankers will avoid fighting high-rankers at all costs, high-rankers will avoid fighting higher-rank high-rankers at all costs, and even between near-rank high rankers there's too much uncertainty and wiggle room in the rankings to want to risk an actual fight. Throw in how difficult it would be to forcibly compel a high-ranker to do anything, and the end result is most high-rankers wind up hardly-ever fighting—the most they usually do is arrive, make a show of force to prove their power level / identity, and then resolve the conflict by other means (e.g. negotiation, games, whatever).

I don't know if the cutoff for that "rarely fight" tier is at 10k, 1k, or 100, or what, but I absolutely expect that that's where the fully-matured princesses wind up: between their Zahard association and their innate power level they're powerful-enough to mostly go unchallenged.

3. Why do you think Adori is so freakishly-high in her rank? Enne makes a bit of sense, seeing as she's full 100% irregular bloodline with the Z-shot to boost. But why Adori, who doesn't have such an obvious heritage as far as we know? Some say she's just a fluke, I think she's a female clone along the lines of the princes, or has a double Z dose of blood. Or something.

Agreed Adori will be freakishly powerful due to background: daughter (by Zahard) of an actual princess, another mixed-great-family-parentage kid, a female Z clone, or perhaps she'll even be another irregular. I'd put 0% odds she's just a freakishly talented fluke, but right now we're really just shooting in the dark as to the specifics.

4. Bonus: Where do you think fully-matured PRINCES should rank? Karaka is, like Yuri, rising fast. He's a 'baby' slayer. That is to say he's not going to end up anywhere near the roughly 500-1000 he's at now. The 'Captain' is likely a clone (a very old one... hinting that the prince program is very, very old) of sorts as well (I think he's Luslec, maybe a blue-hole, whatever) and clearly very competent if not extremely powerful to boot. Wangnan... ah, Wangnan. What can be said about him that hasn't already been said? He's obviously the runt of the RLD, weak, frail, and a loser. BUT, the fact that he's destined for more (evidenced by his recent luck acquiring a huge hack sword and more importantly SIU pointedly saying he has a lot in store for him) and seemingly cannot be killed hints that there's more to meet the eye with him. Ugly-duckling syndrome powerwise or something (no matter how unlikable or boring he currently is). I digress.

Where do the princes, of which there may be 2 or 3 (if not more unseen) rank in comparison to the princesses? And how many are there? We know there are 2 rings. But that doesn't mean there were only 2 clones. The inclusion of the Captain indicates cloning has a long history, and many iterations may have been attempted (shout out to anyone watching Foundation, or having read it), failed or successful we don't know.

We KNOW the princesses are made by adding Z blood to an existing tower resident. Are princes made in the same fashion, but in utero? Clones (more likely IMO)? 'Bred' the old-fashioned way (supposedly impossiburu)? If clones, their concentration of Z-blood should be even higher than a princess by default. Although it probably has to be tempered or cut in some way due to its potency. Still, (cut or not) the princes seem to look identical to Zahard so one would think it's closer to full-strength after all. Perhaps a way to stabilize it was being worked on... the history of Zahard's ascension and what took place (leading to revolt?), the prince and princess program overlap, the RLD and the greatest sin there... all this dovetails together into one of the most important mysteries of the series.

I suppose the princess rankings will be a more popular discussion, but I find the princes more interesting to be honest.

Obviously, I'm primarily talking strength and less influence in rank discussions. Yeah, yeah, I know the ranks are influenced by more than strength. Such as influence. We'll ignore that influence in the tower is largely related to strength in that convoluted system.

One thing I realized recently is that, if nothing else, Wangnan is directly illustrating what the immortality contract means in practical terms: he's not invulnerable, but he makes a quick-and-full recovery from any injury (and no matter how severe). This seems to be the dynamic SIU alluded to with Arlene's unsuccessful suicide attempts, and—to a lesser extent—it's probably what Data Zahard was surprised didn't happen when Baam shot his arm off (that's not a 1:1 situation but I think SIU meant the dynamic to be analogous).

One thing I suspect is that either the clones, the red witches, or both only really date back to Enryu's incursion. That incursion was maybe thousands of years ago, sure, but there's a sharp difference between "since the beginning" and "in reaction to/preparation-for future irregular arrivals." This is just trying to tie together the "red light zone" / red shinsoo / creating life hints SIU's given us, but it makes sense to me: Zahard spends X millennia just chilling, Enryu snaps him out of his complacency, and then (IMHO) Phantaminum tells him the time is imminent (...in the sense of imminent that'd make sense for such long-lived beings).

My indirect answer to your question is I suspect that there'll be some kind of relationship between Zahard's general absence/inactivity and the clones: maybe Zahard distributed aspects himself into a bunch of clones to give him a way to directly intervene within tower events, but at the cost of e.g. losing direct access to the aspects he distributed? This doesn't actually address the power level question per se, but it touches on it in that it'd leave the clones with a very high power-level ceiling (...albeit one Zahard can presumably commandeer or reclaim at any point...).

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Generally agreed with many in this thread.

I want to

Me too?

As an indirect answer, my mental model of the tower is that the upper-echelon high-rankers rarely-if-ever actually fight. Low-rankers will avoid fighting high-rankers at all costs, high-rankers will avoid fighting higher-rank high-rankers at all costs, and even between near-rank high rankers there's too much uncertainty and wiggle room in the rankings to want to risk an actual fight. Throw in how difficult it would be to forcibly compel a high-ranker to do anything, and the end result is most high-rankers wind up hardly-ever fighting—the most they usually do is arrive, make a show of force to prove their power level / identity, and then resolve the conflict by other means (e.g. negotiation, games, whatever).

I don't know if the cutoff for that "rarely fight" tier is at 10k, 1k, or 100, or what, but I absolutely expect that that's where the fully-matured princesses wind up: between their Zahard association and their innate power level they're powerful-enough to mostly go unchallenged.

Agreed, although we know 'rising stars' are displacing other rankers, particularly Yuri and Karaka. I know 'feats' count and if a current ranker hasn't done shit in a while with a feat on record as X, but Yuri does a Y feat that's more impressive, that individual is likely to get displaced in the ranks even without a fight. Obviously, it has to be somewhat comparable or where strength could be imputed from the feat itself in some kind of objective sense.

Agreed Adori will be freakishly powerful due to background: daughter (by Zahard) of an actual princess, another mixed-great-family-parentage kid, a female Z clone, or perhaps she'll even be another irregular. I'd put 0% odds she's just a freakishly talented fluke, but right now we're really just shooting in the dark as to the specifics.

Yeah, it's fill-in-the blank as SIU is soooo slow to leak lore and data points, even names and faces. Speculation as though it might be, I don't think she's a fluke either. There's even the 'golden' 13mo that is color-associated with Zahard. Too much to be coincidental.

One thing I suspect is that either the clones, the red witches, or both only really date back to Enryu's incursion. That incursion was maybe thousands of years ago, sure, but there's a sharp difference between "since the beginning" and "in reaction to/preparation-for future irregular arrivals." This is just trying to tie together the "red light zone" / red shinsoo / creating life hints SIU's given us, but it makes sense to me: Zahard spends X millennia just chilling, Enryu snaps him out of his complacency, and then (IMHO) Phantaminum tells him the time is imminent (...in the sense of imminent that'd make sense for such long-lived beings).

So, maybe the red witches, yes. But the 'Captain' appears to be a clone that was *already* well-aged at the later point of Genesis (which could have been a long period in of itself). So, unless Enryu also came during Genesis period, that doesn't line up as an apparent clone preceded Enryu coming. I'm not sure we have much to date WHEN Enryu showed up, but I get the feeling that was well into the established empire period during a period of relative peace and complacency, well after Genesis.

As such I don't think the clones can have much to do with Enryu. They ring more along the lines of genetic experimentation in the same vein as the princesses. BUT, that program is also very old as princesses supposedly aided in the empire conquering floors. So, that was early, perhaps even PRE empire. And an even older prince program that creates Zahard clones being pre-empire also means princess program can be very old as well. All that is pre-Enryu I believe. I also think the 'RLD' is thus on 80F where Luslec was made as the Captain (probably first) clone, who then fought alongside the OG13 and V specifically the rest of the way up. I doubt V had Luslec the instant he entered the tower, and before the floors were conquered no one was really changing floors or challenging the admin, so at best Luslec was met on 80F even if native, naturally born in the tower. Though, I think 80F might have been a stopping point or plateau where the experimentations were taking place, particularly with Z cloning. Perhaps the princess program came later on anther floor. Call it 99, who cares.

The red witches certainly have SOME relationship with Enryu though, as an aside. And, as guides, they serve a similar role as do the silver dwarf guides. It's also not lost on me that Enryu was considered a midget, or a dwarf of sorts. How odd that guides that are female share his 'color' (bloods), and guides that are male share his 'stature' (crips?) while both have somewhat of a history with each other as well it would seem. In short, I think the source of their powers are very similar as they have somewhat the same type of powers, albeit with slightly different spins. When Hwa Ryun met Evan there seemed to be some mutual recognition beyond 'merely' being a guide. And BOTH types (red witches and silver dwarfs) MUST go to FOD as a type of pilgrimage, and hold that specific floor sacred - further associating them with Enryu.

It's also interesting Gustang shut down the research institute of his name from researching into ANY guide. I suspect because that would lead them to the obvious location - FOD, and Gustang obviously wants to keep that floor off-limits for obvious reasons.

 

[toil]

Agreed, although we know 'rising stars' are displacing other rankers, particularly Yuri and Karaka. I know 'feats' count and if a current ranker hasn't done shit in a while with a feat on record as X, but Yuri does a Y feat that's more impressive, that individual is likely to get displaced in the ranks even without a fight. Obviously, it has to be somewhat comparable or where strength could be imputed from the feat itself in some kind of objective sense.

On the one hand, I think this is an accurate description of how SIU's described the ranking mechanics and, by extension, an accurate description of how the ranks can get adjusted without needing a formal fight. On the other hand, in a "fully-thought-through" ToG universe, this very same mechanic would also be a multifaceted explanation for why there're so few fights between high rankers.

Coming from one direction, you don't need to fight to go up in the ranks...so why take unnecessary risks?

Coming from another direction, though, the fact that ranking is fuzzy and partially-decoupled from raw power levels would strongly discourage fighting between (apparent) near-peer high-rankers.

In a world where ranking is purely a function of power-level, ranker 102 might rationally want to take on ranker 100 if circumstances provided a credible way to overcome the raw-power gap (e.g. choice items, a clever strategy, or a unique opportunity, etc.)...and the rank-100 might rationally accept the fight b/c they've got the higher raw power.

In the world SIU built, though, there's such an indirect relationship between power level and rank that neither 102 nor 100 would necessarily risk a fight with each other (at least if purely going off of their relative ranks): too much chance the rank differential is grossly understating the power differential, thus too much risk to take the chance.

I'm not sure SIU thought that part all the way through. IIRC he has repeatedly emphasized that rank is more about overall "likelihood to prevail in a conflict" (my paraphrase) than "raw power level," but if he got into the granular mechanics I don't recall ever seeing it.

Yeah, it's fill-in-the blank as SIU is soooo slow to leak lore and data points, even names and faces. Speculation as though it might be, I don't think she's a fluke either. There's even the 'golden' 13mo that is color-associated with Zahard. Too much to be coincidental.

Yup, and then we get into even rarer ideas like "offspring of the Captain" (or whatnot).

So, maybe the red witches, yes. But the 'Captain' appears to be a clone that was *already* well-aged at the later point of Genesis (which could have been a long period in of itself). So, unless Enryu also came during Genesis period, that doesn't line up as an apparent clone preceded Enryu coming. I'm not sure we have much to date WHEN Enryu showed up, but I get the feeling that was well into the established empire period during a period of relative peace and complacency, well after Genesis.

I totally forgot about that guy, and yeah: his existence that far back really precludes a lot of otherwise-appealing "late prince" theories. I actually like your (apparent) concept that that guy is Luslec, because it'll honestly make a lot of sense for FUG to be lead by a charismatic raconteur who's also more disappointed-than-hateful vis-a-vis Zahard.

The really vague part of the timeline for me remains the sequence between the Hidden Garden era and Enryu's return. I think the right sequence is something like the Hidden Garden era overlaps with the period of the V-and-Arlene rebellion, then there's a long quiet period while Arlene roams in search of an exit, then Enryu arrives with Arlene's prophecy, then there's (I think) another long quiet period...but that's just a best-guess.

As such I don't think the clones can have much to do with Enryu. They ring more along the lines of genetic experimentation in the same vein as the princesses. BUT, that program is also very old as princesses supposedly aided in the empire conquering floors. So, that was early, perhaps even PRE empire. And an even older prince program that creates Zahard clones being pre-empire also means princess program can be very old as well. All that is pre-Enryu I believe. I also think the 'RLD' is thus on 80F where Luslec was made as the Captain (probably first) clone, who then fought alongside the OG13 and V specifically the rest of the way up. I doubt V had Luslec the instant he entered the tower, and before the floors were conquered no one was really changing floors or challenging the admin, so at best Luslec was met on 80F even if native, naturally born in the tower. Though, I think 80F might have been a stopping point or plateau where the experimentations were taking place, particularly with Z cloning. Perhaps the princess program came later on anther floor. Call it 99, who cares.

This gets into speculation that's IMHO internally-consistent but also probably too granular for the limited information we actually have.

My only contribution on this topic is an increasing suspicion that SIU will increasingly introduce limited varieties of irregular status: perhaps the children of two irregulars will be irregular in the sense of being "not fully bound by tower rules" (but not necessarily remarkably powerful, or whatnot), perhaps there's a way to clone that'd preserve irregular status (thus leading Zahard's presumptive "clone program" to use additional means to constrain the clone capabilities), or perhaps there's just some clever rules-lawyering that can be exploited given sufficient resources (e.g. Aria, etc.).

On this theory, Karaka being a presumptive clone of Zahard is useful not just for the base power level boost but because, someday, he could be unlocked into being (more-of) an irregular. Likewise with White, he's super-powerful but perhaps his soul-consumption and fusion-magic include the possibility of "acquiring irregularity via absorption." You see what I mean: for FUG to have a ghost of a chance they need at least one irregular no matter what, but if there are shades-of-irregularity than FUG's overall strategy looks a lot smarter than it has up until now.

The red witches certainly have SOME relationship with Enryu though, as an aside. And, as guides, they serve a similar role as do the silver dwarf guides. It's also not lost on me that Enryu was considered a midget, or a dwarf of sorts. How odd that guides that are female share his 'color' (bloods), and guides that are male share his 'stature' (crips?) while both have somewhat of a history with each other as well it would seem. In short, I think the source of their powers are very similar as they have somewhat the same type of powers, albeit with slightly different spins. When Hwa Ryun met Evan there seemed to be some mutual recognition beyond 'merely' being a guide. And BOTH types (red witches and silver dwarfs) MUST go to FOD as a type of pilgrimage, and hold that specific floor sacred - further associating them with Enryu.

It does seem like there's something of interest going on there with the attributes. In particular, the silver dwarves are essentially albinos, e.g. colorless, so it's basically like one side got the "color theme" and the other got the "body type."

I have to think that the guide's apparent freedom to wander the tower w/out going through the formal testing process could wind up being due to some sort of "residual irregularity" if they're "Enryu derivatives" in some sense or other. Bigger-picture, from what we know of early SIU he seemed preoccupied with questions of fate (including the dictation thereof, which AIUI was what his "axes" could do). Suspect there's some common concept between Enryu delivering a prophecy, Enryu-esque species with intrinsic fate-insight, and (both of) said species having an obligatory pilgrimage to where Enryu came and did his thing.

It's also interesting Gustang shut down the research institute of his name from researching into ANY guide. I suspect because that would lead them to the obvious location - FOD, and Gustang obviously wants to keep that floor off-limits for obvious reasons.

I think there's also something there about fate manipulation, which then ties into Emile (as a fate-manipulation tool), which, sadly, seems to be a plot thread SIU's largely dropped at this point.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

On the one hand, I think this is an accurate description of how SIU's described the ranking mechanics and, by extension, an accurate description of how the ranks can get adjusted without needing a formal fight. On the other hand, in a "fully-thought-through" ToG universe, this very same mechanic would also be a multifaceted explanation for why there're so few fights between high rankers.

Coming from one direction, you don't need to fight to go up in the ranks...so why take unnecessary risks?

Coming from another direction, though, the fact that ranking is fuzzy and partially-decoupled from raw power levels would strongly discourage fighting between (apparent) near-peer high-rankers.

True enough. Though the 'feats' must be a certain level of a show-of-force enough to approximate power/strength for comps' sake. I'm thinking most feats in of themselves would probably be dangerous to undertake, and would generally be fights anyways. But, yes, generally-speaking the rankings seem to be a bit fuzzy. Big Brain Tower algorithms utilized I'm sure.

In a world where ranking is purely a function of power-level, ranker 102 might rationally want to take on ranker 100 if circumstances provided a credible way to overcome the raw-power gap (e.g. choice items, a clever strategy, or a unique opportunity, etc.)...and the rank-100 might rationally accept the fight b/c they've got the higher raw power.

In the world SIU built, though, there's such an indirect relationship between power level and rank that neither 102 nor 100 would necessarily risk a fight with each other (at least if purely going off of their relative ranks): too much chance the rank differential is grossly understating the power differential, thus too much risk to take the chance.

I'm not sure SIU thought that part all the way through. IIRC he has repeatedly emphasized that rank is more about overall "likelihood to prevail in a conflict" (my paraphrase) than "raw power level," but if he got into the granular mechanics I don't recall ever seeing it.

Sure. The risk-reward for toppling near-rankers probably doesn't pay off for the most part. That's why it seems the top ranks are relatively static and everyone is set in their complacency. It was maybe season 1 but IIRC rankers aren't generally fighting each other, although that probably increases in likelihood the higher the rank. Too much risk to lose rank, face, or life as there's so much uncertainty involved.

It's one thing for Yuri to fly past 1000 into the 500's, and another thing entirely for her (or anyone else) to shoot from 100 into the 50's - assuming she has the strength to do so in each instance.

Then, factor in things like 'status' that supposedly affects ranks. Say nothing of status generally being associated with feats of strength, and/or lineage which hints at.... strength ability. So, though I repeat myself, strength is *generally* the root of everything in a Darwinian, dog-eat-dog tower.

So, 102 might be, all things considered, roughly what 100 is and vice-versa. There's probably a bit more of a stretch beyond 2 or 3 ranks but you get the idea. Some anomalies, but there is certainly overlap. As such, a 205 ranker could best 199 in the best of circumstances.

Even SIU said that Jinsung VS Kallavan fighting 10 times in a row would have 10 different results (I'm paraphrasing, please correct if wrong).

And in the extreme upper echelon of ranks you might have thousands of years without ranks changing. It would take someone like a new irregular entering the tower to change the ranks. Or having massive balls like Eduan wanting to fight Urek just for a higher number. Which still seems to be just bravado as nothing has changed in the ranks. Even Enne's show of force was so massive she retains her ranks because no one can come close to it even after she's sealed up.

Yup, and then we get into even rarer ideas like "offspring of the Captain" (or whatnot).

ahhhhh. Yeah, the first thought we had was a Z clone or offspring, but what of a daughter of a clone? Should still be massively powerful, but the clones clearly don't approximate the power of the original so maybe their seed isn't too strong to be received by female tower denizens.

As such, could Wangnan and (probably) Karaka have children, and what kind of potential would those children have?

If Il Capitano was an enormously powerful clone/figure as we believe, it would seem that his daughter - if Adori - would likewise be enormously strong. She wouldn't *necessarily* need Z blood (from the original) as she'd have the water-down, cloned version of that blood, BUT taking the real Z blood on top of everything would result in a super-soldier among princess super-soldiers.

Though I still default to thinking she's a female clone. You can make female clones (XX chromosomes) from a male (XY), but not males from a female. Soooo, Zahard clones could be both males or females depending on how they're produced.

I totally forgot about that guy, and yeah: his existence that far back really precludes a lot of otherwise-appealing "late prince" theories. I actually like your (apparent) concept that that guy is Luslec, because it'll honestly make a lot of sense for FUG to be lead by a charismatic raconteur who's also more disappointed-than-hateful vis-a-vis Zahard.

Yes, I made a lovely thread about it (pats self on back). Luslec and the Captain have a lot of overlap IMO.

The really vague part of the timeline for me remains the sequence between the Hidden Garden era and Enryu's return. I think the right sequence is something like the Hidden Garden era overlaps with the period of the V-and-Arlene rebellion, then there's a long quiet period while Arlene roams in search of an exit, then Enryu arrives with Arlene's prophecy, then there's (I think) another long quiet period...but that's just a best-guess.

I believe this is correct. It would probably kill SIU to give us a timeline...

['fuzzy' irregular talk]

[placeholder]

 

[Nic14]

1.Enne (mixed irregular blood)
2.Adori ( super prodigy )
3.Arie horn zahard
4.Arie Hagipherione zahard
5. Maschenny (battle nut top 100)
6.Garam zahard
7.Pondo
8.Heice Zahard
9.Yunie Zahard/Rebecca Pon zahard
9.Alphid/An
10.Yuri zahard
11. Original Anaak/Yuram zahard

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

1.Enne (mixed irregular blood)
2.Adori ( super prodigy )
3.Arie horn zahard
4.Arie Hagipherione zahard
5. Maschenny (battle nut top 100)
6.Garam zahard
7.Pondo
8.Heice Zahard
9.Yunie Zahard/Rebecca Pon zahard
9.Alphid/An
10.Yuri zahard
11. Original Anaak/Yuram zahard

What does the bold mean?

 

[Nic14]

What does the bold mean?

Nothin just copied the text from another post which already had the names some of it was in bold

 

[toil]

True enough. Though the 'feats' must be a certain level of a show-of-force enough to approximate power/strength for comps' sake. I'm thinking most feats in of themselves would probably be dangerous to undertake, and would generally be fights anyways. But, yes, generally-speaking the rankings seem to be a bit fuzzy. Big Brain Tower algorithms utilized I'm sure.

In my mental model, I'm not sure that right, if you're talking about using the show-of-force to convince the ranking agency of anything: I was thinking of the show-of-force being used not to provide information to the ranking agency, but, instead, just to establish that (a) you are who you claim to be and (b) your power level and capabilities are credibly within the range they're reputed to be.

The tl;dr is I was thinking along the lines of, say, fights between rival lions: on the one hand they're real conflicts, because the stakes are real (winner becomes king of the pride, loser becomes a loner and slinks away); on the other hand they're not so much serious fights as serious games of chicken—lots of roaring, chest-puffing, teeth baring, and warning shots, but rarely escalating beyond that. The logic there is "no matter who wins, we both lose": if the lions fight all-out they'll both wind up with serious injuries, leaving them at high risk of death from starvation, death from infection, or death at the hands of an opportunistic, uninjured third party...so, generally, they don't fight all out.

I don't think SIU is explicitly thinking in these terms, but he doesn't need to be—the logic sketched above arguably "arises naturally" from the situation and its incentives...and I think the high-ranker situation is analogous-enough in its structure for the same types of behaviors to "arise naturally" (so to speak).

The point of all this is that the shows-of-force I was talking about might wind up getting factored into future rankings, but they don't have to, either: I was just thinking of them as how the high rankers tried to prove to each other that they were actually who they claimed they were (and that their capabilities were in line with their reputations).

I want to say you can break down both the Karaka-and-Yuri fight (at the name hunt station) and the start of the Jinsung-vs-Maschenny fight as following a script roughly along the above lines, but am too lazy to do so—I may be misremembering or over-interpreting.

I generally agree with the rest of your remarks. I'd summarize it as the ranking system results in two kinds of uncertainty. On the one hand, rank deriving from multiple factors leaves a lot of meta-uncertainty about what any given ranker's actual capabilities might be; on the other hand, even with perfect power-level knowledge, there's still a lot of uncertainty due combat being such a high-variance activity.

End result: much more ambiguity and uncertainty about the probable outcome of a high-ranker conflict than would be expected given their nominal ranks, thus much more reluctance to actually fight, much more interest in solving conflict by negotiation, games, other mutual-face-saving stratagems, and whatnot.

ahhhhh. Yeah, the first thought we had was a Z clone or offspring, but what of a daughter of a clone? Should still be massively powerful, but the clones clearly don't approximate the power of the original so maybe their seed isn't too strong to be received by female tower denizens.

As such, could Wangnan and (probably) Karaka have children, and what kind of potential would those children have?

I think Wangnan's healing factor is maybe better understood not as a healing factor but, instead, as his having immortality (like Zahard, etc.). If that's true, though, it seems that the logic of the tower is much stranger than expected: I could see tower logic being such that these tower contracts are tied not to individuals (e.g. souls or whatever) nor even directly to their bodies but, instead, to something like their DNA-identity (or, god forbid, their shinsoo-chlorians, ahem)?

Per this theory the formula for the clones would be "the tower grants them Zahard's privileges and immunities...and thus whoever made them was very, very careful to impose tight constraints on their capabilities." For Wangnan that constraint appears to be a strict shinsoo prohibition, for Karaka that constraint remains unknown (but probably ties into the armor somehow), and for others who can say. It's also easy for SIU to include an "imperfect copies receive only partial recognition as Zahards."

Which gets to your question: per this theory these Zahard clones are basically given Zahard status by the tower, then kept in check by additional constraints. In the absence of an inheritable constraint, however, the offspring of such Zahard clones would, at minimum, be expected to have a status analogous to the direct offspring of the other family heads, except substantially more-so due to being "direct Zahard offspring" (as it were).

In the presence of an inheritable constraint, all bets are off, of course, with one more caveat: since Baam has his magical spell-breaking ability, Baam would theoretically be able to remove the constraint from any pseudo-Zahard descendant. Why he hasn't done this yet to Wangnan would be a bit of a question—I have to think they'd have touched each other at least once by now, right?

Yes, I made a lovely thread about it (pats self on back). Luslec and the Captain have a lot of overlap IMO.

Not only did you make a thread, I actually posted in it multiple times, too. Sigh.

Since then I am more skeptical about V being Luslec. No real new information has come in, just that my assessment of the balance of probabilities has evolved (somehow)—whoever he is, I doubt he's V. I could, however, see V being alive as some kind of perpetually-wandering observer figure: too checked-out to intervene, but still invested-enough to want to witness the major moments in Arlene's prophecies. I don't like that as a dramatic concept, but could see SIU going for it.

The one thing I'm less sure on now is where Luslec being a Z clone would leave all the theories about Zahard and V being brothers. In theory those are orthogonal concepts and both could be true, but in practice any plot concepts wherein it's significant who's the "prince of zahard" gets weird, fast, if both Baam and the clones have colorable claims to that title.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

In my mental model, I'm not sure that right, if you're talking about using the show-of-force to convince the ranking agency of anything: I was thinking of the show-of-force being used not to provide information to the ranking agency, but, instead, just to establish that (a) you are who you claim to be and (b) your power level and capabilities are credibly within the range they're reputed to be.

The tl;dr is I was thinking along the lines of, say, fights between rival lions: on the one hand they're real conflicts, because the stakes are real (winner becomes king of the pride, loser becomes a loner and slinks away); on the other hand they're not so much serious fights as serious games of chicken—lots of roaring, chest-puffing, teeth baring, and warning shots, but rarely escalating beyond that. The logic there is "no matter who wins, we both lose": if the lions fight all-out they'll both wind up with serious injuries, leaving them at high risk of death from starvation, death from infection, or death at the hands of an opportunistic, uninjured third party...so, generally, they don't fight all out.

I don't think SIU is explicitly thinking in these terms, but he doesn't need to be—the logic sketched above arguably "arises naturally" from the situation and its incentives...and I think the high-ranker situation is analogous-enough in its structure for the same types of behaviors to "arise naturally" (so to speak).

The point of all this is that the shows-of-force I was talking about might wind up getting factored into future rankings, but they don't have to, either: I was just thinking of them as how the high rankers tried to prove to each other that they were actually who they claimed they were (and that their capabilities were in line with their reputations).

I want to say you can break down both the Karaka-and-Yuri fight (at the name hunt station) and the start of the Jinsung-vs-Maschenny fight as following a script roughly along the above lines, but am too lazy to do so—I may be misremembering or over-interpreting.

I generally agree with the rest of your remarks. I'd summarize it as the ranking system results in two kinds of uncertainty. On the one hand, rank deriving from multiple factors leaves a lot of meta-uncertainty about what any given ranker's actual capabilities might be; on the other hand, even with perfect power-level knowledge, there's still a lot of uncertainty due combat being such a high-variance activity.

End result: much more ambiguity and uncertainty about the probable outcome of a high-ranker conflict than would be expected given their nominal ranks, thus much more reluctance to actually fight, much more interest in solving conflict by negotiation, games, other mutual-face-saving stratagems, and whatnot.



I think Wangnan's healing factor is maybe better understood not as a healing factor but, instead, as his having immortality (like Zahard, etc.). If that's true, though, it seems that the logic of the tower is much stranger than expected: I could see tower logic being such that these tower contracts are tied not to individuals (e.g. souls or whatever) nor even directly to their bodies but, instead, to something like their DNA-identity (or, god forbid, their shinsoo-chlorians, ahem)?

Per this theory the formula for the clones would be "the tower grants them Zahard's privileges and immunities...and thus whoever made them was very, very careful to impose tight constraints on their capabilities." For Wangnan that constraint appears to be a strict shinsoo prohibition, for Karaka that constraint remains unknown (but probably ties into the armor somehow), and for others who can say. It's also easy for SIU to include an "imperfect copies receive only partial recognition as Zahards."

Which gets to your question: per this theory these Zahard clones are basically given Zahard status by the tower, then kept in check by additional constraints. In the absence of an inheritable constraint, however, the offspring of such Zahard clones would, at minimum, be expected to have a status analogous to the direct offspring of the other family heads, except substantially more-so due to being "direct Zahard offspring" (as it were).

In the presence of an inheritable constraint, all bets are off, of course, with one more caveat: since Baam has his magical spell-breaking ability, Baam would theoretically be able to remove the constraint from any pseudo-Zahard descendant. Why he hasn't done this yet to Wangnan would be a bit of a question—I have to think they'd have touched each other at least once by now, right?



Not only did you make a thread, I actually posted in it multiple times, too. Sigh.

Since then I am more skeptical about V being Luslec. No real new information has come in, just that my assessment of the balance of probabilities has evolved (somehow)—whoever he is, I doubt he's V. I could, however, see V being alive as some kind of perpetually-wandering observer figure: too checked-out to intervene, but still invested-enough to want to witness the major moments in Arlene's prophecies. I don't like that as a dramatic concept, but could see SIU going for it.

The one thing I'm less sure on now is where Luslec being a Z clone would leave all the theories about Zahard and V being brothers. In theory those are orthogonal concepts and both could be true, but in practice any plot concepts wherein it's significant who's the "prince of zahard" gets weird, fast, if both Baam and the clones have colorable claims to that title.

I'm confused, before responding.... you mention V being Luslec. Do you mean the Captain in place of V?

 

[toil]

I'm confused, before responding.... you mention V being Luslec. Do you mean the Captain in place of V?

I was reading your old thread and saw, back then, I'd speculated something like (a) V isn't really dead, (b) Luslec is really V in disguise, and (c) (by implication) the Captain isn't Luslec. Seeing it now, I don't find it a plausible guess in any way.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I was reading your old thread and saw, back then, I'd speculated something like (a) V isn't really dead, (b) Luslec is really V in disguise, and (c) (by implication) the Captain isn't Luslec. Seeing it now, I don't find it a plausible guess in any way.

OK hence my confusion. That one I think was about Enryu and V, but probably hasn't ages well.

I also made one about the Captain being Luslec, which I think is a lot more likely.

 

[Cinera]

@Jubei_Kibagami, @toil: your speculations on Ranks are misguided.

Evankhell said that except for certain special positions (Guides being the Prime example), one cannot reach the Top 300 Rankings without being capable of killing another Top 300 Ranker in combat:

Lefav needed to kill Evankhell to rise to the Top 200.


People drop in Rankings when they lose considerable influence:

• Evankhell losing her job as A Floor Ruler
• Presumably Kallavan after he was demoted from his position as a Corps Commander

Logically, they can also jump in the Rankings by acquiring considerable influence or status. But it's along the lines of becoming a Ruler, Corps Commander, acquiring a second/third 13 Month, etc.

The most reliable way to boost your Rank is simply to kill a High Ranker above you in combat.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

@Jubei_Kibagami, @toil: your speculations on Ranks are misguided.

Evankhell said that except for certain special positions (Guides being the Prime example), one cannot reach the Top 300 Rankings without being capable of killing another Top 300 Ranker in combat:

Lefav needed to kill Evankhell to rise to the Top 200.


People drop in Rankings when they lose considerable influence:

• Evankhell losing her job as A Floor Ruler
• Presumably Kallavan after he was demoted from his position as a Corps Commander

Logically, they can also jump in the Rankings by acquiring considerable influence or status. But it's along the lines of becoming a Ruler, Corps Commander, acquiring a second/third 13 Month, etc.

The most reliable way to boost your Rank is simply to kill a High Ranker above you in combat.

I'm not sure what you're saying that's opposing the posts made though.

Aren't we saying very similar things.

As far as "acquiring considerable influence or status" as you say "beoming a ruler, CC, acquiring a 13mo, etc".... most of those feats require a strong amount of power. Sure, some of that could just be a lucky timing thing (a 13mo falling in their lap?), but for the most part to acquire one of those things and KEEP it you are going to need the power to back it up. No one is letting you sit around in the tower, everything is up for grabs. No one is going to just let any of those things happen or be acquired if they are stronger - they'll just take it for themselves (or someone else that's stronger that comes along).

Strength is the basis for everything in the tower, which is why it's a little silly to act like it doesn't underwrite the supposedly non-strength measurements when it comes to ranking. For the most part.

 

[Cinera]

And in the extreme upper echelon of ranks you might have thousands of years without ranks changing. It would take someone like a new irregular entering the tower to change the ranks.

Enne, Adori and Baek Ryun all disturbed the Top 10 Rankings within the last 5,000 years.

Or having massive balls like Eduan wanting to fight Urek just for a higher number. Which still seems to be just bravado as nothing has changed in the ranks.

He's a bit too busy getting another kind of action right now. You'd need to first tear him away from his harem before he chose to actively hunt down another Irregular.

but the clones clearly don't approximate the power of the original so maybe their seed isn't too strong to be received by female tower denizens.

If Eduan and Hon can father children, then Zahard surely can as well. It's not like Zahard is on another level entirely from them. When he fought Eduan on the Hidden Floor, they seemed equal.

I'm guessing that Zahard being unable to father children is an excuse he made to avoid taking a wife (he clearly still hasn't gotten over Arlene).

A major caveat to this is that we do not know of any female Family Heads having children to non Irregulars:

• Yurin
  • Her only children are with Han (the Ha Twins)
  • This is despite her having several relationships with other men even after separating from Han.
• Blossom
  • Her only known children are with Gustang (Enne, maybe others).
• Arlene
  • Her only child is with V (Baam).
• Hana
  • She does not have any children.
  • Ilarde bears children on her behalf.

So it seems as if Female Irregulars cannot be impregnated except by another Irregular. However, the male Irregulars don't seem to have this sort of limitation when creating progeny.

Yes, I made a lovely thread about it (pats self on back). Luslec and the Captain have a lot of overlap IMO.

Link, please.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Enne, Adori and Baek Ryun all disturbed the Top 10 Rankings within the last 5,000 years.

Right, but they are the *extreme* upper limit of tower-born, and thus outliers completely. The point is that disturbances do not in fact happen very often. It's few and far between in the highest of echelons. Exceptions prove the rule.

He's a bit too busy getting another kind of action right now. You'd need to first tear him away from his harem before he chose to actively hunt down another Irregular.

How does the Khun family separate the men (like Eduan himself) from the boys (like AA)?

Spoiler: Answer

With a prybar.

Regardless, it's still a part of his character. That he wants to retake his former position/numerical assignment/rank. And to do so requires besting Urek physically.

If Eduan and Hon can father children, then Zahard surely can as well. It's not like Zahard is on another level entirely from them. When he fought Eduan on the Hidden Floor, they seemed equal.

I'm guessing that Zahard being unable to father children is an excuse he made to avoid taking a wife (he clearly still hasn't gotten over Arlene).

A major caveat to this is that we do not know of any female Family Heads having children to non Irregulars:

• Yurin
  • Her only children are with Han (the Ha Twins)
  • This is despite her having several relationships with other men even after separating from Han.
• Blossom
  • Her only known children are with Gustang (Enne, maybe others).
• Arlene
  • Her only child is with V (Baam).
• Hana
  • She does not have any children.
  • Ilarde bears children on her behalf.

So it seems as if Female Irregulars cannot be impregnated except by another Irregular. However, the male Irregulars don't seem to have this sort of limitation when creating progeny.

Good points about the female irregulars, I hadn't heard that before or considered it.

Still, SIU has made it pretty clear that the story is that Zahard simply cannot have kids. Personally, I think that also may be bunk, but as of right now it's canon.

Maybe something changed with Zahard as he climbed (the tentacle monster within taking over is the most obvious) beyond a psychological change.

I'm not sure if he tried to have kids BEFORE his kingly contract, but if he hadn't it could also very well be a reason that he can't have kids. It could make him godly to the point that tower gals really can't accept his seed. Or, it may just be a part of the 'legal' requirements the admin have, a stipulation to being the king.

There are of course other reasons that could differentiate him from the other irregulars that would make it impossible to have kids.

Link, please.

Predictions - Luslec is a 'prince' of Zahard... and 'the Boss'/'the Captain'

Consider: - 462 blog confirms 'the captain' and 'the 'boss' is one in the same, looks like Wangnan/data Zahard, hints at revealing his identity later (he's not Wangnan, Karaka, and probably not Zahard...) - The 'Captain' is privy to quite a lot - where Jinsung is being held, and that Dowon...

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