Discussion Regarding Thorn

[zamki]

I am not hundred percent sure if It has been brought up before but I will post it anyway .

As we all know , the true origin of the Thorn is still a mystery . We have been informed countless of times in the series that the power that the Thorn grants is like that of the administrators . Additionally , IIRC It has also never been stated that Enryu actually used the Thorn to kill the administrator of the 43rd floor . The question is , how likely is it that Enryu actually made/formed the Thorn from the remnants of the dead administrator ? The fragments were dead inside until they came into contact with Baam as well which also directs me to this conclusion . If I am putting the wrong pieces together , I would like you to refer me to the chapters that It has been stated otherwise.

 

[toil]

This is interesting to me: Enryu shows up, kills the administrator, and leaves the thorn.

What connects “leave thorn” and “kill administrator”?

One possibility is “prevent administrator from interfering with thorn delivery”, but it’s also possible the thorn (fragments, etc.) are essentially “administrator extract/concentrate/etc.”...and thus Enryu killed the administrator to get-or-create the thorn.

Hadn’t thought about it before but there may be something to this line of thought.

 

[LushuMine]

I’ve said it in another threats but I still believe the thorns are some kind of Enryu’s soul that was sealed and splitted.

I say it coz we can see a lot of similarities with the Essence of Bravery: the shape and sized before absorbed, the “boost” effect after ignited, being an ignation weapon, the visual/effect it has when ignited, etc. And we know the Essence of Bravery is the sl of an acient warrior who was sealed.

Of course Baam’s thorn is more surrounded by mysterious than the Essence. It shall have more enigmas. But I believe Enryu’s soul is the essence of the thorn.

 

[zamki]

I’ve said it in another threats but I still believe the thorns are some kind of Enryu’s soul that was sealed and splitted.

I say it coz we can see a lot of similarities with the Essence of Bravery: the shape and sized before absorbed, the “boost” effect after ignited, being an ignation weapon, the visual/effect it has when ignited, etc. And we know the Essence of Bravery is the sl of an acient warrior who was sealed.

Of course Baam’s thorn is more surrounded by mysterious than the Essence. It shall have more enigmas. But I believe Enryu’s soul is the essence of the thorn.

You also do have a point considering all the ignition weapons we have seen so far have souls inside them . Having a sould might even be a prerequisite to ignition weapons( I am not sure if It has been stated in the story explicitly) .In this case , It could also be the soul of the dead administrator , the red colour of the thorn could be implying the soul of Enryu , however It could also be due to the shinsoo Enryu using .

 

[Demonspeed]

You also do have a point considering all the ignition weapons we have seen so far have souls inside them . Having a sould might even be a prerequisite to ignition weapons( I am not sure if It has been stated in the story explicitly) .In this case , It could also be the soul of the dead administrator , the red colour of the thorn could be implying the soul of Enryu , however It could also be due to the shinsoo Enryu using .

Yes, all IW have souls inside them. Anyway, I don't think Enryu's soul is inside. He is supposed to have left after completing his mission. I don't see why he would kill himself after and divide the Thorn into four fragments.

The red lobster thing should be the soul inside.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

per the wikia: (I'm assuming the wikia is well-sourced)

"While initially it was unknown why Enryu killed the 43rd Floor Guardian, it was later revealed that he entered the 43rd Floor believing that Zahard had desecrated the Floor that was once Arlen Grace's shrine. Enryu grimly warned that those who followed the "fake king" would be destroyed and while many took his warning seriously and left, which spared them of Enryu's wrath, Zahard's fanatics charged at him but Enryu instantly decimated all of them with a single titanic burst of his Red Rain and then was confronted by the enraged Guardian of the Floor. Enryu proved himself to be more powerful and slayed the Administrator while utterly laying waste to the Floor's landscapes.[3] Enryu left behind huge thorn at the site where the Guardian died, as Enryu's purpose was to deliver the thorn that would cut the king's throat."

My takeaway is this then: Enryu absolutely came with the plan to leave the thorn. If he made it from admin remnants instead of bringing it with him, he'd have had to plan ahead to kill the floor admin to complete his task. The above quote makes it at least seemingly apparent that the admin attack wasn't planned; it was an incidental response to Enryu killing Zahard's fanatics. I guess you could make the argument that Enryu knew that not all the fanatics would flee (meaning he'd have to kill some) or that he'd be challenged by the admin (thus being forced to kill it) so as to know that would be how he would MAKE the thorn on-site, but that seems reading a bit much into what we know of the events thus far, IMO.

So, I think he 'brought it with him'. If he brought the knowledge to make it with him, then I think he 'made' it with native shinsoo, though maybe he saw the admin remnants and added that to it. But, considering he had to plan this out in advance rather than wing it necessarily, I'm still leaning towards he brought it with him.

Then again, there's this quote:
“ There is a rumour that the famous Enryu is even able to create Life with Shinsoo. ”
—Lero-Ro[2]


I don't think that 'rumor' or quote from Lero-Ro is arbitrary by SIU. I would gamble that he CAN DO JUST THAT. So maybe he made the thorn on-site. Or maybe it was made from shinsoo before he got in the tower, or on FOD. But either way it's not necessitating admin flesh to do so (though I guess it doesn't rule it out).

 

[zamki]

per the wikia: (I'm assuming the wikia is well-sourced)

"While initially it was unknown why Enryu killed the 43rd Floor Guardian, it was later revealed that he entered the 43rd Floor believing that Zahard had desecrated the Floor that was once Arlen Grace's shrine. Enryu grimly warned that those who followed the "fake king" would be destroyed and while many took his warning seriously and left, which spared them of Enryu's wrath, Zahard's fanatics charged at him but Enryu instantly decimated all of them with a single titanic burst of his Red Rain and then was confronted by the enraged Guardian of the Floor. Enryu proved himself to be more powerful and slayed the Administrator while utterly laying waste to the Floor's landscapes.[3] Enryu left behind huge thorn at the site where the Guardian died, as Enryu's purpose was to deliver the thorn that would cut the king's throat."

My takeaway is this then: Enryu absolutely came with the plan to leave the thorn. If he made it from admin remnants instead of bringing it with him, he'd have had to plan ahead to kill the floor admin to complete his task. The above quote makes it at least seemingly apparent that the admin attack wasn't planned; it was an incidental response to Enryu killing Zahard's fanatics. I guess you could make the argument that Enryu knew that not all the fanatics would flee (meaning he'd have to kill some) or that he'd be challenged by the admin (thus being forced to kill it) so as to know that would be how he would MAKE the thorn on-site, but that seems reading a bit much into what we know of the events thus far, IMO.

So, I think he 'brought it with him'. If he brought the knowledge to make it with him, then I think he 'made' it with native shinsoo, though maybe he saw the admin remnants and added that to it. But, considering he had to plan this out in advance rather than wing it necessarily, I'm still leaning towards he brought it with him.

Then again, there's this quote:
“ There is a rumour that the famous Enryu is even able to create Life with Shinsoo. ”
—Lero-Ro[2]


I don't think that 'rumor' or quote from Lero-Ro is arbitrary by SIU. I would gamble that he CAN DO JUST THAT. So maybe he made the thorn on-site. Or maybe it was made from shinsoo before he got in the tower, or on FOD. But either way it's not necessitating admin flesh to do so (though I guess it doesn't rule it out).

The capabilities of the Thorn are just too admin-like , being able to use shinsoo in Hell Joe's presence , creating gates between spaces etc . And It has been freaking deliberately stated several times that Its power is just like that of the admins which in the end makes me think about the possibility .Guess we'll just wait and see.

 

[toil]

My takeaway is this then: Enryu absolutely came with the plan to leave the thorn. If he made it from admin remnants instead of bringing it with him, he'd have had to plan ahead to kill the floor admin to complete his task. The above quote makes it at least seemingly apparent that the admin attack wasn't planned; it was an incidental response to Enryu killing Zahard's fanatics. I guess you could make the argument that Enryu knew that not all the fanatics would flee (meaning he'd have to kill some) or that he'd be challenged by the admin (thus being forced to kill it) so as to know that would be how he would MAKE the thorn on-site, but that seems reading a bit much into what we know of the events thus far, IMO.

I find this reasoning persuasive; consider me convinced.

Even if he did make it on-site, I'd still lean towards that "rumor" ultimately being about the "red light district" rather than about the on-site thorn construction, FWIW.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I find this reasoning persuasive; consider me convinced.

Even if he did make it on-site, I'd still lean towards that "rumor" ultimately being about the "red light district" rather than about the on-site thorn construction, FWIW.

Are you thinking he had something to do with Wangnan?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 28, 2018 ---

The capabilities of the Thorn are just too admin-like , being able to use shinsoo in Hell Joe's presence , creating gates between spaces etc . And It has been freaking deliberately stated several times that Its power is just like that of the admins which in the end makes me think about the possibility .Guess we'll just wait and see.

They are that, but I'm not sure if that's because Enryu prior to the admin being killed. His shinsoo control is 'heretical' and possibly above any and all admin. Was the egg hatched first, or did the chicken come first? Either way, he had to have some overpowering way to kill the admin, so I'd argue any traits imparted into the thorn were inherent to Enryu.

 

[toil]

Are you thinking he had something to do with Wangnan?

Not necessarily him. The scenario I imagine feels too complicated for ToG but maybe not: (1) you can use red shinsoo to create life, (2) Jahad learned this after Enryu's arrival (first/only publicly-known red shinsoo user, I think), (3) Jahad is using it to create life and cheat fate (somehow), (4) rumors about the "red light district" originate from this activity, (5) but it's attributed to Enryu, not Jahad, because (6) only Enryu is known for using red shinsoo and (7) Jahad's supposed to be inactive/resting/whatever.

Like I said it feels a bit too complicated for ToG, but that's the kind of thing I'm expecting: Jahad directly-creating Wangnan, Karaka, etc., as part of his scheme to cheat fate, and is using red shinsoo in ways that lead to rumors, these rumors get mis-attributed to Enryu, and there we are. Or similar.

 

[kkck]

One thing, we haven't been told the power of the thorn is like that of the administrator. At least not explicitly. The most recent references to that would be during the floor of death but at the time the characters actually weren't sure of what was going on. We see hell joe wondering if bam could control shinsoo regardless of the red thrysa because of the thorn. But at the time characters, or even us readers, didn't know bam had already absorbed a blue thrysa. So while hell joe speculated on the thorn, it might very well be the case that bam could control shinsoo not because of the thorn but because of the blue thrysa. We ultimately do not know what to attribute to the thrysas and what to attribute to the thorn.

 

[Ripcord]

One thing, we haven't been told the power of the thorn is like that of the administrator. At least not explicitly. The most recent references to that would be during the floor of death but at the time the characters actually weren't sure of what was going on. We see hell joe wondering if bam could control shinsoo regardless of the red thrysa because of the thorn. But at the time characters, or even us readers, didn't know bam had already absorbed a blue thrysa. So while hell joe speculated on the thorn, it might very well be the case that bam could control shinsoo not because of the thorn but because of the blue thrysa. We ultimately do not know what to attribute to the thrysas and what to attribute to the thorn.

It is really hard to tell - now we see that Bam is mixing all of the things inside him together and making their power his own.

Generally I think that administrators control where shinsoo goes, who can use it, and how much. It seems to me that when Bam got the thorn initially, and not before that point, he was able to forcibly affect the flow of shinsoo (against Reflojo) and as a smaller effect with the Bowl inside him, Bam was able to forcibly draw shinsoo into himself to perform reinforcement to beat Amigochaz.

SIU has stated that different users will experience different effects of the thorn, which means that this Administrator-like quality of the first fragment has something to do with Bam or things that are a part of Bam. He is able to control shinsoo without a contract so perhaps this first fragment simply amplifies that ability. It could also be that the thorn ties into the Blue Thryssa and amplifies that power - we know that Bam passively used “The Power” from the Blue Thryssa or at least The Power helped Bam initially “for free” based on their initial conversation.

Most likely we will get more questions than answers this week when Bam unleashes the second fragment. No spoilers please!

 

[kkck]

It is really hard to tell - now we see that Bam is mixing all of the things inside him together and making their power his own.

Generally I think that administrators control where shinsoo goes, who can use it, and how much. It seems to me that when Bam got the thorn initially, and not before that point, he was able to forcibly affect the flow of shinsoo (against Reflojo) and as a smaller effect with the Bowl inside him, Bam was able to forcibly draw shinsoo into himself to perform reinforcement to beat Amigochaz.

SIU has stated that different users will experience different effects of the thorn, which means that this Administrator-like quality of the first fragment has something to do with Bam or things that are a part of Bam. He is able to control shinsoo without a contract so perhaps this first fragment simply amplifies that ability. It could also be that the thorn ties into the Blue Thryssa and amplifies that power - we know that Bam passively used “The Power” from the Blue Thryssa or at least The Power helped Bam initially “for free” based on their initial conversation.

Most likely we will get more questions than answers this week when Bam unleashes the second fragment. No spoilers please!

In terms of understanding this the mixing is more of a problem with anything since what we see does not tend to get significantly explained.

What annoys me is that in a way we even know more about the second thorn fragment than the first. With the first one we have seen that it ambiguously increases bam's power and then the ignition which does more of that ambiguous crap.... Meanwhile we have fairly concentre evidence that the second thorn fragment controls "space".

My theory on the first fragment is that it has different effects with different people because it ambiguously controls shinsoo. In other posts I have made the point that different shinsoo skills likely require different talents. As in, talent for reinforcement is intrinsically different from talent for wave controlling so to speak (hence why wave controllers are not the best reinforcers). So someone who specializes in wave controlling would see enhanced wave controlling meanwhile someone who uses for reinforcement would use it for reinforcement. Of course, all of this gets very muddy once we factor in that bam has a metric crapton of tools to enhance his shinsoo control. At least his first thorn seems to boost shinsoo control, then both his thrysas also boost his shinsoo control and on top of that you have the orb which maximizes his shinsoo. Most of the stuff bam has obtained end up boosting his already high shinsoo control.

 

[zamki]

One thing, we haven't been told the power of the thorn is like that of the administrator. At least not explicitly. The most recent references to that would be during the floor of death but at the time the characters actually weren't sure of what was going on. We see hell joe wondering if bam could control shinsoo regardless of the red thrysa because of the thorn. But at the time characters, or even us readers, didn't know bam had already absorbed a blue thrysa. So while hell joe speculated on the thorn, it might very well be the case that bam could control shinsoo not because of the thorn but because of the blue thrysa. We ultimately do not know what to attribute to the thrysas and what to attribute to the thorn.

During Baam's fight against Data Jahad; Right after the ignition of Thorn, Data Jahad said : "It is just a faint feeling but It is like the power of the administrator" & "The power to control space,this is like the power of the administrator" ,not anytime before that.It was right after the Thorn ignition. Thus ,I think we have already been told the power of the Thorn is like that of the administrator.

For reference :Chapters 303&304

 

[kkck]

During Baam's fight against Data Jahad; Right after the ignition of Thorn, Data Jahad said : "It is just a faint feeling but It is like the power of the administrator" & "The power to control space,this is like the power of the administrator" ,not anytime before that.It was right after the Thorn ignition. Thus ,I think we have already been told the power of the Thorn is like that of the administrator.

For reference :Chapters 303&304

That could easily be the thorn amplying the thrysa's admin power though. And we know for a fact the thrysa's give bam those powers.

 

[zamki]

That could easily be the thorn amplying the thrysa's admin power though. And we know for a fact the thrysa's give bam those powers.

However, Baam had the horns of both blue and red thryssa before the ignition which drives me to the conclusion that Baam had already been using their powers at that time.And Data Jahad did not say anything of the admin-like attributes of Baam.It was only after the ignition.

I also see what you said as a possibility but less likely.

 

[toil]

Weirdly though, he red and blue horns line up with data Zahard’s red and blue pupils in the battle on the hidden floor. No clue how or why but...he’s drawn that way

 

[zamki]

Weirdly though, he red and blue horns line up with data Zahard’s red and blue pupils in the battle on the hidden floor. No clue how or why but...he’s drawn that way

Now that is weird.

 

[toil]

Yeah it’s weird. It also looks like the real Zahard lost an arm (we can’t tell but the armor he wears has asymmetry with a shoulder pad one one side and an arms-length something on the other) and iirc we only ever see one arm.

There is more going on in that encounter but I don’t know what any of it means yet.

 

[zamki]

Yeah it’s weird. It also looks like the real Zahard lost an arm (we can’t tell but the armor he wears has asymmetry with a shoulder pad one one side and an arms-length something on the other) and iirc we only ever see one arm.

There is more going on in that encounter but I don’t know what any of it means yet.

Not quite.In chapter 306 , He is trying to grab and kill Data Jahad with his left and then Data Eduan saves him with an electric strike.And in chapter 307,He grabs Baam from his neck with his right hand .He doesnt miss an arm.