Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

[Sanity Check]

Even if that were the case (which is a pretty wonky claim to begin with) it still does not change that atheism is in no way, shape or form a religion.

If atheism were a religion.

Could atheists find it within themselves to be honest about it.

Would atheists prefer honesty and truth, or would they prefer lies.

That's one foundational aspect of things, that usually goes unacknowledged.

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2022, Original Post Date: May 7, 2022 ---

There is no ideological precept pushing atheists into taking advantage of people by lying about their lack of belief. But there certainly is a path and incentive for people to do this with religion.

Religion acknowledges people are held accountable for their choices and decisions. It has a moral code.

Atheism says people can do whatever they want without consequences or accountability.

If anything incentivizes taking advantage of people or telling lies, its atheism far more than religion.

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2022 ---

Because it's obviously a mad thing to say

Whether you are a Catholic, or not, to say that the head of the Catholic church doesn't follow the same religion is nonsensical

Hollywood and the catholic church both have issues with pedophiles, both being establishments owned and operated by the rich and powerful.

The pope is just another tool to influence and control people, the same as hollywood films and the media.

Its been this way for hundreds if not thousands of years. Its easy to deduce and figure out. Most simply choose not to know what the truth or facts are, believing they're better off not knowing.

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2022 ---

that doesn't make anyone in the Vatican an atheist...

An atheist vatican.

Makes as much sense as US politicians in office who do not represent the values or interests of america.

The vatican has not represented the interests or values of christianity in a long time in an identical fashion.

The vatican today is pro secular. The pope pushes secular and atheist values far more than he does christian ones.

 

[shionoro]

Atheism says people can do whatever they want without consequences or accountability.

No. There is nothing Atheism "says". The thought that the absence of God means that there are no other moral boundaries that matter is a thought made up by religious people.

Atheists feel bound by certain moral guidelines just like anyone else, they just dont build a religion around them.
Also, Atheists do not use their god as excuse to do bad things. Religious people sometimes do.

There are more muslims and christians hurting or killing homosexual people in the name of god than there are atheists claiming there is no moral and killing people.

 

[xi0]

I'd be something like an agnostic theist, not an atheist

I'm curious about how you arrived to this point. So you acknowledge the existence of a God is unknowable but still believe he exists? Does that encompass worship of some sort, or just that a creator likely exists?

Religion acknowledges people are held accountable for their choices and decisions. It has a moral code.

Atheism says people can do whatever they want without consequences or accountability.

If anything incentivizes taking advantage of people or telling lies, its atheism far more than religion.

If someone is religious and doesn't follow this moral code, what are they? Are all hypocrites atheists to you?

Shio already addressed this, but this is a complete misconception. Atheism isn't a doctrine.

An atheist vatican.

Makes as much sense as US politicians in office who do not represent the values or interests of america.

The vatican has not represented the interests or values of christianity in a long time in an identical fashion.

The vatican today is pro secular. The pope pushes secular and atheist values far more than he does christian ones.

You can try to paint them as not serving their values all you want, that may very well be the case. The Vatican has harbored pedophiles for who knows how long, there's most certainly corruption including and beyond that. The East-West Schism, the Protestant Reformation, the very existence of different sects have displayed some people's opinions regarding whether the Pope and Catholicism represent the interests or values of Christianity. This is not some new notion just because the Pope isn't European.

You may wish to brand them heretics or something of that nature, that still doesn't make them atheist or secular for that matter. The definition of words and concepts are important.

 

[kkck]

If atheism were a religion.

Could atheists find it within themselves to be honest about it.

Would atheists prefer honesty and truth, or would they prefer lies.

That's one foundational aspect of things, that usually goes unacknowledged.

But it's not so.... imaginary problem averted.

 

[xi0]

But it's not so.... imaginary problem averted.

Apparently some atheist writing a book means atheism should just be treated as a belief system

It is curious that the lack of belief is someone not being honest or truthful or someone that prefers lies. I'm guessing this is an allusion to Satan of some sort?

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2022, Original Post Date: May 7, 2022 ---

most of us are Atheists here

Tbh I'm still not sure how I feel about this label. I'm sort of at a place where I feel like if a creator does exist, Deism makes more sense than anything else. Who or what is responsible for us being here doesn't require glorification.

 

[Brandish μ]

I'm curious about how you arrived to this point. So you acknowledge the existence of a God is unknowable but still believe he exists? Does that encompass worship of some sort, or just that a creator likely exists?

It's the definition that best suits (for the purpose of a census or similar). I believe there is a God. I'm not hung up on not knowing if God exists, that wasn't a basis for me not being Christian. There is no deconversion story (per Q1). I didnt dislike church, but I did not have faith as I perceived it should be. So when I stopped going it wasn't an issue, maybe even deep down it was a relief to not be an imposter (not that this weighed on me much).

There are times I am thankful to God. It's not routine or prayer.

 

[xi0]

It's the definition that best suits (for the purpose of a census or similar). I believe there is a God. I'm not hung up on not knowing if God exists, that wasn't a basis for me not being Christian. There is no deconversion story (per Q1). I didnt dislike church, but I did not have faith as I perceived it should be. So when I stopped going it wasn't an issue, maybe even deep down it was a relief to not be an imposter (not that this weighed on me much).

There are times I am thankful to God. It's not routine or prayer.

But you consider it more appropriate to identify as theist rather than deist, for example? You still believe in a personal God of some sort?

 

[Sanity Check]

But it's not so.... imaginary problem averted.

You claim atheism isn't a religion.

What is it then?

You can't define it as a simple lack of belief as it encapsulates many different ideas, concepts and beliefs atheists have.

...

Also would people agree that dishonest people can never produce anything of value in science or fields related to rational pursuits.

Honesty is a hard requirement for intelligence, logic and scientific achievement.

 

[Brandish μ]

But you consider it more appropriate to identify as theist rather than deist, for example? You still believe in a personal God of some sort?

I'll look into deism further. A quick google search didn't really click with me though.

Also would people agree that dishonest people can never produce anything of value in science or fields related to rational pursuits.

Honesty is a hard requirement for intelligence, logic and scientific achievement.

Idk about a hard never, but more likely than not.

Intelligence does not require honesty.

Logic is math, more or less? Honesty doesn't seem to be key.

Scientific achievement probably needs a level of honesty on several fronts. But that should not be confused (or put in the same exact basket) as being objective and free from bias to your best ability when it comes to scientific method, imo. I guess that doesn't address 'achievement', and I don't really know how.

 

[Sanity Check]

Intelligence does not require honesty.

Intelligence requires accuracy. And accuracy in turn requires honesty.

A person who is not honest on the inside, cannot be honest with topics on the outside.

Dishonesty makes topics like science, logic and math extremely difficult, if not impossible.

 

[Brandish μ]

Intelligence requires accuracy. And accuracy in turn requires honesty.

A person who is not honest on the inside, cannot be honest with topics on the outside.

Dishonesty makes topics like science, logic and math extremely difficult, if not impossible.

If someone commits acts of dishonesty, are untrustworthy or corrupt, would you say with certainty the are not possibly intelligent?

 

[z.5]

You claim atheism isn't a religion.

What is it then?

You can't define it as a simple lack of belief as it encapsulates many different ideas, concepts and beliefs atheists have

You can because it has no fixed ideas, concepts or beliefs

Atheism is just an umbrella term, nothing more

It is just a large box to throw anyone in who doesn't believe in a god/gods

• Are there atheists who adamantly claim that gods don't exist? Sure
• Are there atheists who aren't convinced that gods exist? Sure
• Are there atheists who want to deconvert religious people? Aye
• Are there atheists who don't see it as their business to try and deconvert people? Aye

...​

There are no fixed rules, ideals, culture, ways to live your life, or anything else that tie atheists together or dictate what they should do/how they should act in any particular situation

In fact, many atheists can't even decide what the word 'atheism' should even entail
(this has led so some atheists [as I would call them] not wanting to use the word to describe themselves, due to all the baggage that is often attached to the term)

Also would people agree that dishonest people can never produce anything of value in science or fields related to rational pursuits

Honesty is a hard requirement for intelligence, logic and scientific achievement

Firstly, this is not a topic related to this thread. If you wish for a science thread then of course we could make one

That said, I vehemently disagree with this statement. Dishonest people can still lead to scientific breakthroughs

Honesty has nothing to do with science - outside of fabrication or plagiarism, I guess... But neither of those are 'science'

 

[kkck]

You claim atheism isn't a religion.

What is it then?

You can't define it as a simple lack of belief as it encapsulates many different ideas, concepts and beliefs atheists have.

...

Also would people agree that dishonest people can never produce anything of value in science or fields related to rational pursuits.

Honesty is a hard requirement for intelligence, logic and scientific achievement.

That's... factually and categorically incorrect. First of all, I can do that if I want to. but that wouldn't be relevant anyways because I am not doing it. Atheism is literally defined as the absence of belief. You can pick up a dictionary if want proof of that.

As in, being dishonest means you aren't rational? Or like, if you avoid your taxes or cheat on your wife then your experiments and data analysis that leads to rejecting or confirming a hypothesis aren't valid?

 

[Sanity Check]

As in, being dishonest means you aren't rational?

Dishonesty is irrational.

Those who lie fool themselves, more than anyone else.

Lies and deceptions are the greatest obstacles to human progress.

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2022, Original Post Date: May 7, 2022 ---

If someone commits acts of dishonesty, are untrustworthy or corrupt, would you say with certainty the are not possibly intelligent?

Dishonesty and lies are correlated with low(er) intelligence.

Just as lack of knowledge is correlated with low(er) intelligence.

Lies and dishonesty make it difficult to accumulate and have knowledge that is legit.

 

[z.5]

Dishonesty is irrational

Not if it makes you a whole lot of money, furthers your career and means you can enjoy a far easier life than other people

To try [perhaps in vain] to bring this back to the topic at hand - there are certainly many TV preachers who I feel have benefited heavily from their lack of honesty and integrity

 

[Sanity Check]

You can because it has no fixed ideas, concepts or beliefs

Religion has no fixed universal ideas, concepts or beliefs either.

 

[z.5]

Religion has no fixed universal ideas, concepts or beliefs either

Specific religions certainly do - not sure anyone here is arguing that all religions are the same/share similar ideas, concepts or beliefs

The point was rather to state atheism is not a belief system/religion (which it isn't), any more than 'lack of belief in a chocolate-flavoured shoe monster, that hides in your cupboards and sniffs you whilst you sleep' is a religion

 

[Sanity Check]

Specific religions certainly do

Individual denominations of religion have fixed concepts.

Just as individual denominations and demographics of atheism do.

But on a broad scale, neither religion nor atheism are static.

 

[z.5]

Just as individual denominations and demographics of atheism do

There are no denominations of atheism

But on a broad scale, neither religion nor atheism are static

I'm not sure what to even make of this

At risk of beating the dead horse any more, there is no way atheism can/can not be static - there is nothing to be 'changed', outside of suddenly 'seeing the light' and no longer being an atheist

 

[shionoro]

I will try it in a more flashy way. Watch this, it is only 2 minutes
Bertrand Russell - Message To Future Generations (1959) - YouTube

Russel was an Atheist. Are his words the words of someone who thought actions have no consequences or morality is meaningless? I dont think so, i think the advices he gave shortly before his death that he deemed most important are guidelines that most people, including most religious people, fail at and should aspire to keep.