Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

[Amnesiac]

That`s impossible, Christian parents have Christian children, Muslim parents have Muslim children, even atheist parents have atheist children, it`s impossible to enforce a law like that, when kids are adults, they will choose for themselves.

That's incorrect, because belief isn't a choice, it comes from reasoning. Part of indoctrinating children into a religion(or any other faith-based system) means teaching them fallacies as valid logic, so their reasoning abilities become handicapped which thins their chance of moving away from religion even at older ages.

 

[Drmke]

That's incorrect, because belief isn't a choice, it comes from reasoning. Part of indoctrinating children into a religion(or any other faith-based system) means teaching them fallacies as valid logic, so their reasoning abilities become handicapped which thins their chance of moving away from religion even at older ages.

Belief is a choice. People choose what to believe. Even when some people see the truth they choose to believe otherwise because that's how they were raised, and they don't WANT to believe otherwise.

 

[Amnesiac]

Belief is a choice.

Can you choose to believe 2+2=5? I think not.

 

[Drmke]

Can you choose to believe 2+2=5? I think not.

You could but that would just make you stupid

Beliefs, especially religious beliefs, are not something you're born with, so you have to choose to believe in them. Babies don't pop out holding a cross

 

[Amnesiac]

You could but that would just make you stupid

Beliefs, especially religious beliefs, are not something you're born with, so you have to choose to believe in them. Babies don't pop out holding a cross

If you can believe 2+2=5 then please do it for a while so you can then report back to us how the bizarre experience was. You couldn't believe 2+2=5 no matter how hard you wanted to because it's a logical absurdity and you know it, hence proving my point that belief isn't a choice. Belief comes mainly from experience, evidence and reasoning, however flawed those maybe in some cases.

Of course many times a religious person is so attached to the belief that he or she will always try to find a rationalization supporting it. But this is only possible when the believer has difficulty recognizing logical arguments (also the attachment itself may and often does cloud judgement): this creates ambiguity about which position is correct, giving the believer a chance to rationalize towards his belief being the right one.

When it's clear to the person which side is correct, personal wishes can't do much.

 

[blai]

To be frank, your discussion is rather... well, let's say that you won't get anywhere because you're discussing two so different things. I mean, reasoning and choosing. You can choose to believe what's logical, or choose to believe what's not logical. Maybe because the latter suits you best. For example, for me it doesn't make sense that I could kill as many people as I want, then confess and say I'm sorry, and then go to heaven. But it's comfortable because as long as I say sorry, it's fine, so therefore I choose to believe in that.
You, as an independent human being, can choose to believe in what's logic to you, or what you want it to be. If you want 2+2 to become 5 even though you know it won't, then it's your choice to believe in that, even though not many do.
And, we're all individuals. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it won't make sense to me. Maybe 2+2=7 for me.

When you're born you'll hear your parents opinions on things, if they go to church regularly, you'll go to church, you'll listen to what they say, and you'll believe that it's correct. When you then grow older you can either choose to stick with it, or throw it away because it doesn't make any sense, you don't like the reasoning or whatever the h*ck you want.

Everyone has something they believe in. If you're an atheist you believe that there are no such thing as, for example, a god, or an afterlife, but if you're for example a protestant you believe there is a god etc.

Religion has no evidence. It has outdated books, tales that have been spoken and changed, but whom still has some truth in it from the start.

I'm a, what I call, a hobby-catholic, because I don't really believe what the bible says, but I have made my own version of it. Like a modified version of Catholicism. But it suits me better so I've chosen to believe in that. Let's say that I don't believe in a heaven, but it'd be fucking awesome if there were one, therefore I've chosen to believe that there is a heaven. Regardless of me "knowing" that there aren't one.

The only thing you can do is to find arguments that makes you feel most comfortable. Religion is not down to facts, it's down to what makes you feel calm and relieved (etc. etc.)

Yes and no.
Yes, opinions should be respected and protected by law.
No, some extreme opinions and their consequences simply should not be tolerated. Not to say they should be forbidden by law: it simply won't work. But simply debunk them at the first possible opportunity. Find the flaw in them and expose them for the anti-social attitude they are.

Yes, even extreme opinions should be tolerated. Not praised, or accepted by the public, but still tolerated. If they believe that they will go to heaven if they kill 90guys, then I would hate to see people disrespecting it. However, I would not like to see anyone being positive about that, or bringing it up as a good example, or saying that they accept it as a human way of thinking, because it's not.

It's down to our ethics and morale. It's very subjective, and just because I believe it's extreme, doesn't make it okay to get disrespected, loathed, or not tolerated, because it's not extreme to them, it's logical to them. However, when people truly believe that it's okay to kill 90 people we need to better our education...

Now i'm off to get drunk. Amen.

 

[Amnesiac]

To be frank, your discussion is rather... well, let's say that you won't get anywhere because you're discussing two so different things. I mean, reasoning and choosing. You can choose to believe what's logical, or choose to believe what's not logical. Maybe because the latter suits you best. For example, for me it doesn't make sense that I could kill as many people as I want, then confess and say I'm sorry, and then go to heaven. But it's comfortable because as long as I say sorry, it's fine, so therefore I choose to believe in that.
You, as an independent human being, can choose to believe in what's logic to you, or what you want it to be. If you want 2+2 to become 5 even though you know it won't, then it's your choice to believe in that, even though not many do.
And, we're all individuals. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it won't make sense to me. Maybe 2+2=7 for me.

There's not different types of logic. Logic is absolute, either you reason logically or fallaciously. Even then, you don't choose which one. You're mistaking 'choosing logic' with choosing values, which is something we do (to some extent).

Logic is amoral, two people with sound logic can reach different morals, because the morals depend on the values each person holds.

Believing in something while knowing it's wrong is impossible, if you know it's false then obviously you don't believe it, you just pretend to.

When you're born you'll hear your parents opinions on things, if they go to church regularly, you'll go to church, you'll listen to what they say, and you'll believe that it's correct. When you then grow older you can either choose to stick with it, or throw it away because it doesn't make any sense, you don't like the reasoning or whatever the h*ck you want.

It's not like you reach a certain age and a magic fairy comes and gives you the option of suddenly throwing out everything you were taught and experienced.

Religious kids who were educated "properly", know not to question their faith, and often don't, or if they do they just shrug it off with some fallacious reasoning. The freeing of someone from religion is mostly dependant on whether or not they are taugh to reason logically and question things.

Take my example, I didn't simply choose "hey, I won't be catholic anymore!", what happened was that as I grew up mentally I started more and more to question what my religion told me, and finally reached the conclusion there was no reason to believe in it.

Religion has no evidence. It has outdated books, tales that have been spoken and changed, but whom still has some truth in it from the start.

I'm a, what I call, a hobby-catholic, because I don't really believe what the bible says, but I have made my own version of it. Like a modified version of Catholicism. But it suits me better so I've chosen to believe in that. Let's say that I don't believe in a heaven, but it'd be fucking awesome if there were one, therefore I've chosen to believe that there is a heaven. Regardless of me "knowing" that there aren't one.

The only thing you can do is to find arguments that makes you feel most comfortable. Religion is not down to facts, it's down to what makes you feel calm and relieved (etc. etc.)

I'm sorry but I can't believe that. ('can't', not 'don't want to')

If you could believe anything you wanted, why not just believe you currently had [insert whatever object/person/condition required for your most extreme happiness]?

Your supposed choice of belief most likely comes from emotional attachment to the belief. Attachments matter, upon discovering proof and/or arguments that a personal belief is wrong, most people try to find rationalizations and hold on to the belief for some time, some indefinitely.

If we could choose beliefs, then homeless people could choose to believe they were actually living it up in a mansion, rather than starving in an alley.

Yes, even extreme opinions should be tolerated. Not praised, or accepted by the public, but still tolerated. If they believe that they will go to heaven if they kill 90guys, then I would hate to see people disrespecting it. However, I would not like to see anyone being positive about that, or bringing it up as a good example, or saying that they accept it as a human way of thinking, because it's not.

It's down to our ethics and morale. It's very subjective, and just because I believe it's extreme, doesn't make it okay to get disrespected, loathed, or not tolerated, because it's not extreme to them, it's logical to them. However, when people truly believe that it's okay to kill 90 people we need to better our education...

Depends on your definition of "respect". I respect other people's rights to have whatever belief they have. But it is also my right to point out whatever logical flaws that make it non-sense

I personally find it somewhat disturbing in mainstream religions that faith, or "believing in something without evidence (or even in spite of contrary evidence)", is held as a virtue.

Now i'm off to get drunk. Amen

Haha, Amen to that. I'm already partly drunk, but it's gonna get much much worse before it gets better.

 

[DLord.Van.Buuren]

signs for the end of the world according to islam .

Spoiler

[SIZE=+0]Wild animals will be gathered into captivity and kept in collections in pens and cages. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Murder will be considered a minor act. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Reducing weights and measures of goods will be a means of increasing profits. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]The person earning a proper and lawful livelihood will be scorned and the person earning his living from unfair means will be admired. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]The main purpose in life will be earning and enjoying. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Aphrodisiacs will be used to strengthen the body for sodomy. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Usury will gain solid ground. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Adultery will be commonplace. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]The murder victim will not know why he is murdered and the killer will not know why he killed. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Mansions like palaces will be constructed. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Bribery will become like a custom. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]There will be no regard for the ties of relationship. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Murder will increase. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Fools will be made rulers. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Ministers of government will be liars. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]The practice of divorce will increase. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]A liar will be considered an acceptable witness. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Good people will keep silent fearing others' foul speech. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Goodness and evil will be viewed from the same perspective. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Unworthy persons will meddle in affairs of state. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]The governors will consider the wealth of the people as their own and they will attack the morality of women. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Governments will stockpile grains to maintain prices. Government will be entrusted to those unworthy of it.[/SIZE]

 

[SeuneuCaang]

Assalamu'alaikum wr. wb.
We wish to join this thread.

Most of people think ISLAM is a religion (with the same definition).
Most of people think a religion is a ritual ONLY.
But ISLAM include ALL of aspect.

For reople who thinks there is a wall between ritual and social/etc., let us think together.

 

[DLord.Van.Buuren]

Assalamu'alaikum wr. wb.
We wish to join this thread.

Most of people think ISLAM is a religion (with the same definition).
Most of people think a religion is a ritual ONLY.
But ISLAM include ALL of aspect.

For reople who thinks there is a wall between ritual and social/etc., let us think together.

Wa allaikumu assalamu wa rahmato allah wa barakatuhu .

indeed islam isnt the equivalent of isolation .
islam is a way of life , not a weekly ritual .

 

[Adam_xx]

One is fact, the other is faith. We use facts to support faith and faith to support facts. Therefore we can assume that religion DOES come down to facts. As you know, the holy books/scriptures of any Abrahamic religion are very old indeed, and they may not apply to modern times as effectively and they may once have. However, upon closer inspection, there are many verses in all the holy books/scriptures that indeed cover or inter-relate with many of the factual evidence science has found. Here, a comparison of the Holy Quran and Science, http://www.islam101.com/science/universe.html, is an example of such a finding.

I may not be making much of a point, but what I’m trying to outline is that you cannot really compare facts to faith, they support one another, maybe one more than the other, though I shan’t comment on that. Granted, on many occasions they may contradict one another, but it all comes down to interpretations and perceptions of the individuals. What one chooses to believe is completely their own business, even though some of us believe it to be wrong. Mathematically, 2+2=4, we all know that to be right. For those few that insist that 2+2=5, we KNOW are certainly wrong, hypothetically. Belief is something that can be manipulated. Facts however, cannot. Unless of course, you were God. (Which is another discussion altogether). At the end of the day, there will be a right and there will be a wrong. What we know now are speculations of what is what, which is why I personally believe that all faith should be respected, no matter how absurd its nature may be. Of course, I’m not saying that the extremity of some situations should be encouraged. Again, that comes down to perception. The human race has developed an almost mutual culture of how one should conduct themselves ethically, and have developed a set of ‘invisible' guidelines for all to follow. Killing 90 people would not be accepted under any circumstances, not for the human race, anyway. We are all but a tiny speck of dust in such a vast frontier. To put it blandly, we are nothing. We do not yet comprehend many things, and perhaps never will.

I probably made a mess of everything just then, please excuse me. I just did a quick scan through of the more recent posts and really didn’t refer back to them so I couldn’t really come up with a heavy loaded response. So sorry if I wasted anyone’s time at all with this most likely, unconvincing post, haha. I’m much more of a lurker than an actual member, was just passing through and this kind of caught my attention so I thought I’d put in my two cents.

 

[benelori]

The thing is religions all of them should be ways of life, the values that they're are built upon should reflect them...but the dogmatic view is what makes religions to be unaccepted or looked down...

If it's a way of life, but it should be accompanied by sanity and not fanatism...
So if I murder 1000 people and then confess like Blai said, that doesn't have to do anything with the religion, because if someone is religious, then by definition he respects at least the values of that religion, so that example is not so good

 

[shaheer]

Wa allaikumu assalamu wa rahmato allah wa barakatuhu .

indeed islam isnt the equivalent of isolation .
islam is a way of life , not a weekly ritual .

well thats the reason Islam is called Deen not a religion
well it does tear a lot of things to permissible and not permissible ..
gives laws system of government economy and like may other way of life, dictates the sets of moral codes that pleases God Almighty

 

[SeuneuCaang]

well thats the reason Islam is called Deen not a religion
well it does tear a lot of things to permissible and not permissible ..
gives laws system of government economy and like may other way of life, dictates the sets of moral codes that pleases God Almighty

Indeed, ISLAM is a Dien (or Deen or Diin), and not a religion. As in Al Quran (3:19).

 

[Drmke]

Well....by definition, a religion is a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe. So by the common (and granted broad) definition of religion, Islam definitely falls into this category.

But there is no need to treat it like its a bad thing. A religion can also be a way of life as it is for a majority of religious believers, not just in Islam.

 

[M3J]

If you can believe 2+2=5 then please do it for a while so you can then report back to us how the bizarre experience was. You couldn't believe 2+2=5 no matter how hard you wanted to because it's a logical absurdity and you know it, hence proving my point that belief isn't a choice. Belief comes mainly from experience, evidence and reasoning, however flawed those maybe in some cases.

Actually, it can be possible to believe 2+2=5, it depends on what we think. Beliefs, like numbers, are manmade and thus, aren't necessarily correct. For all we know, god isn't human shaped, but is a spirit as Native Americans believe, and thus, we're not made in his image, but in his imagination. Beliefs come from not just experience, but what we've grown up being taught. That plays a major part over experience. Belief can be a choice though. We can choose to believe this or believe that.

Example. My parents are Jain, strongly devout Jain. As such, I was raised as a Jain and to believe in gods and goddesses, as well as pray and not eat meat. However, I began to think, and from there, I made my own choice. I chose to not believe in deities, I chose to abandon my beliefs of existence of such thing. I chose to eat meat and not pray at all. Many are taught that god exists while growing up, while not experiencing god themselves. Yet they still believe in such thing. Beliefs come from the time we can think on our own, where we have two choices: continue as we were without thinking, what we were taught as kids; think differently and figure out whether such belief is true, and whether we should stick to it or not. I opted for the latter, I thought differently and seeing that no such proof existed, I stopped believing in god.

2+2=5 is far from logical absurdity. To us it seems like it is because we were taught and raised to believe 2+2=4, no exception. Numbers, created by men, are set in stone unless there is a really really great reason it needs to change. However, if we had no beliefs in numbers or knew anything about it, 2+2=5 might make sense to us, even if we may not understand the reasoning behind it.

 

[DLord.Van.Buuren]

But there is no need to treat it like its a bad thing. A religion can also be a way of life as it is for a majority of religious believers, not just in Islam.

i couldnt help but notice that most christians who happen to mention if they are relegious or not they also mention going to church . does that limit christianity in going to church ?

muslims actually consider the quran as a reference in every aspects of their lives its a constitution to muslims .

 

[blai]

No. I'm a Catholic Christian but I don't attend church. I don't see that as a necessary thing, as long as you believe.

 

[Koen]

I am Catholic Christian too and I don't attend church. We become Catholic Christians because we are baptised immediately after our birth. Our family chooses for us. We could decide afterwards to be excommunicated but somehow a majority doesn't. I can not answer why but

I think Christianity - in Europe at least - differs from Islam and Judaism because of the philosophy of the enlightenment by Kant and followers. You can see that the lifestyle of a majority of the Jews and Muslims is influenced by the religious written words, whereas over here it isn't anymore (whereas it used to be). You can even see that in very easy parts of religious being, eg.
1. Muslims and ramadan, hadj, etc, etc
2. Jews and bar/bat mitswa, kosher, etc, etc

-> but Christians: yeah we know about the 40 days of Jezus, pilgrimage, etc but our lifestyle isn't adapted to it in an affective way I think. A majority knows but doesn't practice belief, a minority practices such things nowadays

 

[shaheer]

@ Drmke ..the point i wanted to draw was in Islam its more of a way of Life than religion alone...i mean it dictates you how to eat how to sleep what to do when certain incidences appear what to eat what not to consume what to wear and whats not permissible to wear. it has Sharia the Islamic Code of Law. and its not just a specified day Muslims are required to perform Salah 5 times a day in 5 given period..ie its mandatory..on Friday we have the special sermon and a special prayer instead of the scheduled afternoon prayer. So basically on every aspects of our life it has to be implicated ..thats Y its more of a Way of life.
then we have the month of fasting
the period for sacrifice which follows a pilgrimage... so in a nutshell cant just say its a religion only i feel that its just a religion...well you can it one no harm...just that its described as a deen rather than a religion