Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

[TechnoMagus]

whoa, that was some discussion regarding rushdie...since most of us would like to bury this highly sensitive matter, i would confine myself to technical questions...

it's my understanding that tha fatwah was issued by the ayatollah's/shia religious authorities in iran. is it safe to assume that there are different views among the sunni?
which begs the question, how is the islamic religious hierarchy organized beyond the mosques and imams for both shia and sunni? how are religious teachings/interpretations handed down from the "higher ups"?

is it by region/country or is there some international hierarchy like the papacy?

since it's ramadan...how do muslims greet each other during this time if you don't mind? "happy ramadan" sounds....weird considering this somber and contemplative period.

and when would the eid be? so that we may be able to "greet" you properly by then....

 

[amar_kun]

we say "Ramadhan Mubarak" or "Ramadhan Kareem"

but in malaysia i usually say "selamat menyambut ramadhan!"

 

[ddadain]

I know some Muslims personally. Muslims who bloat themselves before the sun comes up and break the fast so fast its amazing ( sarcasm for you ). Seriously, I know quite many.

The Quran, in fact, was mostly compiled some time (more than a hundred years or so) after your prophet's death (or ascension ._.). Anyways, when we talk about context, we need to talk about the original purpose, so to speak. And, unlike the Bible or many other "religious", they're either compiled in the lifetime of the actual founder or eye-witnesses.

Most of the "kill the infidels" statements are, yes, "context-ed" in the eve or midst of battle, blah blah, but if you are as learned as you seem to be, you should know there are some that aren't.

Moreover, saying "Islam means peace" and yet, looking at your (religion's) history, your conquest of the middle east in days of old, we're from the recitation of "jihad" by, cough, the founder and his lackeys (t. Murdering ever soul in a city, even the innocent. Or are we gonna talk about shared guilt, in which Islam fails very miserably (not to mention, most other religion on earth XD). Something peaceful is something not forced, or unconditioned. When tolerance is practiced. When you can go question the faith of your parents, without having you be dragged by men from your home to a dark, empty room in which you're beaten until you confess your sin and repent of blasphemy against God. When converting to another faith means your death, or ex-communication. Not Peaceful.

And... for the record, if I was a "islamophobic", I'd be talking more factual things here. And not just go through the endless blabber of justification. There are more... well... let's say "intellectual" arguments.

And for the record, Saladdin killed more people that he saved Some hero...




Well, it seems we've been sucked into the vortex of Islam XD Anyone has anything other than something that refers to the crescent-faith.

I have some knowledge of other things too XD And this is supposed to be "religious discussion and Q&A".

 

[conan]

so much to reply to, so little time...
first of all I have to say that all questions asked in this thread have been deep and delved into deep intellectual matters, as pleasesd as I am with this I have to say that not all questions could be answered by the simple people who try answering, I am no scholar and will not claim to be and if I dont know I'll say I dont know.
first techno magus, ramadan mubarak means have a blessed rmadan also at eid you can say eid mubarak which means have a blessed eid, but thats the international arabic term you could find things that relate to a culture or country.

second of all, how is information interpreted from the higher ups, will I am sunni muslim and my answer is my simple knowledge about how we function, first the source of islam is two things, the quran, and the prophet, the prophet meaning sunnah, therefore we are called sunni, which means related to the sunnah, sunnah means anything the prophet said did or approved of, that is the source of all islamic knowledge and law, there is the third source, which is what hasnt been touched by the quran and sunnah, the prophet informed to do ijtihad, which means a scholar is allowed to give a fatwa about something based on his knowledge intellect faith and the information he has about an issue.

after the prophets time there were interpretations of the quran and sunnah which differed, but many men which I repect and am proud to have in my heritage have risked their lives travelling and collecting the info, and later four interpretations are the ones that are followed, the four ways are called after their founders, abu haneefa, imam malek, al imam alshafei, al imam ahmad, there was so much that was done in those times that I cannont write in one post, so I'll leave it at that, a scholar would simply study the work done then and teach it to us, the basis in all four ways is the same, and by the way the founders of the four ways were once all student and teacher chronlogically, the important thing is that they based their opinions on the quran and sunnah, hope that answers it.

now ddadain, your questions dont have answers, you have gone so deep in this in philosophical manner that I cant see you finding answers but by yourself, by your own experiences, or actually asking someone face to face who might or might not have the answers to your questions, so seek someone known for being knowledgable and ask him, there isnt much that I can say to you, but you seem to think that the only way to feel free is to be able to doubt, I do not belive in this, there is a difference between a freedom to choose and a freedom to doubt, but me saying this doesnt make a real difference since you seem to think it strongly,I am not going to lecture you on every verse that has kill in it in the quran and tell you why it really is peaceful, but you have not read it fully and seem to be judging, simply put, your questions cant be answered on a manga forum, all that I can tell you was my peoples history proved to me that islams way was right, I doubted and seeked and found, I looked for the answers and found them thats all I can say.

hope that helped, though I doubt it did much .

 

[Optimist]

wow ddadain !
I always heared that there is a misunderstanding of islam but you exceeded my expectation
I have no time to reply ( also my english isn't good enough), i hope that amar_kun or someone else will clarify to you, also I think you need to know islam from its recource and not Judging Islam by the behavior of some Muslims...

(t. Murdering ever soul in a city, even the innocent.

where did you get this definition ?! is it in Quran ?

When you can go question the faith of your parents, without having you be dragged by men from your home to a dark, empty room in which you're beaten until you confess your sin and repent of blasphemy against God. When converting to another faith means your death, or ex-communication. Not Peaceful.

Never heared !are you sure you are talking about islam ? are you confusing islam and christian ?

I think the problem is that you focus on some particular wrong behaviours and you are generalizing. Try to read ressource ( Quran and Sunna )

Islam has come to advocate the principles of freedom; freedoms of religion, thought

Allah says, "And say, 'The truth is from your Lord, so whosoever wants let him believe and whosoever wants let him deny." (al-Nahl 18:29)

The Qur'an says, "There is no compulsion in religion," (al-Baqarah 2:256)

 

[helping]

The Quran, in fact, was mostly compiled some time (more than a hundred years or so) after your prophet's death (or ascension ._.). Anyways, when we talk about context, we need to talk about the original purpose, so to speak. And, unlike the Bible or many other "religious", they're either compiled in the lifetime of the actual founder or eye-witnesses.

Thats true the quran was complied ~100 years after the prophet death. It was complied with a criterion which is - each pieces of the quran (the pieces of skin etc) that was going to be used, must be written in the presence of the prophet with two witnesses. Theres only one verse which they can't find two witnesses. (if you want more clarification just ask)

now the bible, the king James version was published in 1611 by King James, and its been through five major revision yet its still called the king James version.

Say for example your great great great grandfather made his last will, and your great great grandfather made a major change in that will, and your great grandfather made another major change in that will, and your grandfather made another major change in that will, and your father made another major change in that will and you make another major change in that will. Do you still insist it is the last will of your great great great grandfather?

The quran hasn't been changed since ~1500 years ago when it was first revealed.

Moreover, saying "Islam means peace" and yet, looking at your (religion's) history, your conquest of the middle east in days of old, we're from the recitation of "jihad" by, cough, the founder and his lackeys

There are atrocities which have been done in the name of religion, in any religion thats true.

(t. Murdering ever soul in a city, even the innocent. Or are we gonna talk about shared guilt, in which Islam fails very miserably (not to mention, most other religion on earth XD)

You show me a historical muslim leader that butchered the innocent in a city.

I'll quote you a letter sent to Pope Urban the II(Pope who ordered the crusade againts "this vial race" ie muslims), from the crusaders when the crusaders entered Jerusalem on July 15th 1099.

"If you want to know what was done to the enemies we found in the city, know this. Our men rode in the blood of the Saracen up to the knee of their horses"

-Even innocent man, women and children and even Christians were not spared-

I'll share with you an interesting fact, its very hard to find any historical Muslim community in land which is conquered to Christians.

Muslim ruled Greece for 400 years, Parthenon was used as a mosque for 70 years, but the Greeks are still orthodox. There are still Orthodox Christian community (the Patriarch) in Istanbul.

Where are the Sicilian Muslims? Muslims were in Sicily for 300 years. Where are the Spanish Muslims that were in Granada when Granada was lost to the Catholic church in 1492. They don’t exist…..

all in all in happy to clarify any ambiguity you have about islam

 

[amar_kun]

thanks conan, optimist and helping for all your post. May Allah reward you for you effort, ameen.

 

[xi0]

I was raised Roman Catholic and confirmed Roman Catholic, but I myself can see how Islam is protrayed negatively sometimes in the media. I am no longer a practicing Catholic for a variety of reasons, but I still show respect to all faiths regardless of whether I may find them backward sometimes. All three Abrahamic religions are responsible for many atrocities in history so to point the finger at any one and say one is worse than the next is based only on what's going on today and not based on the history of all three.

 

[amar_kun]

yes i agree with xio. it is not fair for one religion to say the other is worse just on recent happenings.

and i also agree that all these 3 abrahamic religion share a lot of common between each other.

even in Al Quran, the holy book of islam, the name of Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them) are mentioned more than the name of prophet Muhammad pbuh. Muslim are also encouraged to love and care their christians and jews counterpart to the extent that the muslim male can marry a jew or christian lady.

c'mon let us spread love, not hate

and it is proven that all recent wars that kill millions of people doesnt have to do with religion at all..

 

[ddadain]

The examples I used are prevalent practices of Middle Eastern Islamic nations, such as Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Provincial Indonesia, etc. AKA Islamic law. Now the conquest of these places can be searched in Google, but to sum it all up, it's not really because they "threw the first stone".

"Embrace Islam so that you may remain safe. And if you refuse to accept Islam, you will be responsible for the sins of the Magi**." ~Courtesy of Wiki <3

**Contextually this means either the Persians (Not really convinced) or Devil Worshipers (More fitting)**

What is "said" isn't really what's practiced, most of the time. And this applies to almost all religions.

The inconsistencies between different sectarian factions of Islam are so great and numerous, it's a wonder why you they are grouped under one religion. Anyways, your clerics seem to be getting there "Kill America, Destroy Israel" somewhere, or are you going to wiggle your way out saying they are "misinterpreting the context". They're your learned people, or so they seem.

Did not your prophet kill off a whole city?

Mind you, I don't really have any prejudice against Muslims, in fact I've got many Muslim friends. In hindsight however, it is quite palpable that there are two kinds of Muslims. The modern, "we love peace" kind, and the "convert all to Islam by any means" kind.

And cough, as for a Christian marrying a Muslim, that would be counter-indicative of their own faith. Meaning to say, NOT REALLY A REAL ONE. And I don't believe the Quran specifically said anything about Jews, now did it? I don't believe I've heard of any Muslim man marrying a woman who follows Judaism or vice versa. Usually, the man would force the woman to recant before marriage, lest they get into trouble...

Funny you mention about the 3 Abrahamic religions. Historically speaking, the Jews came first, then the Christian, then the Muslims. What's interesting is that the Quran seemed to have (who're we kidding), DID reinterpret many of the things from the Jewish Text and the New Testament, of course, conveniently replacing crucial things here and there. Not too credible. Don't get me wrong, the Jews or Christians could have also doctored their texts, but as was said, historically speaking, Islam holds the greatest suspicion. *If you need further clarification, search Google*

And as much as you want to make the the antagonist, I'm only pointing out the obvious.

Your mindset is clearly shown here, saying "spread the love, not hate...", my "misunderstanding" has EXCEEDED YOUR expectation, islamophobia... You give me the impression that any inquiries, or highlighting of your faith's bases or shortcomings is already an attack. Gosh, I'm not even debating yet. You think I hate Muslims by stating negative facts? Baseless arguments usually warrants that.

To close, riddle me these:

When did the Muslims start to "claim" Gaza was theirs?
Based on the correct answer of the above question:
Who holds historical claim to Jerusalem?

And, I am stating now, I don't believe in religion.

 

[xi0]

ddadain I sense that your tone is a little too antagonistical here and I would recommend that you tone it down, along with anyone who responds to his post. If you guys can't do this then I would say to drop it.

 

[conan]

well I'll keep the tone down xio, and ddadain, man you ask a lot of questions, lots that already have been answered in this thread already, lots which even have been answered in other threads already, like I said before your asking too much for us to give, you can point out all the mistakes you think exist thats fine, but still I dont believe you seek the answer, didnt I tell you it would be hard for me to lecture you on why ever verse on the quran that has the word kill in it is really peaceful, yet that seems exactly what you ask, you ask on verses, then resources, then historical incidents, please if you want to know things that much, go read a book on these issues, you even ended your post about the middle eastern conflict, thats a 50 year old issue if not longer, I think it deseves more time to research than a questioning session here, yet I answered those questions in a topic eileen opened about the issue, look for it in the world news section and you will find a long debate which has most of the answers that you seek.

you had three posts to answer your last and now you'll maybe have more, like I said, if you really wnat to know that much look for a good source, human or written, ask or read, or stay to one topic at a time please, then we can give you many views on one issue, which would be more resourceful, but please stop writing a list of all the things you collected over the years that you think, or at least write them one at a time instead, so we can keep up with you, thats all I ask.

 

[TechnoMagus]

re: religious hierarchy

@conan
thanks for that little clarification. so is it safe to assume that much of the interpretation has already been done by the four you mentioned and that they have quite an influence and respect for their teachings? how about interpretations on developments more recent after the four scholars you mentioned? are the fatwahs codified in some way and are they treated as precedent in the future like english common law?

based on your answer, it seems the sunni branch is a bit informal organizationally beyond the scholar/imam level. for shia, i just know that an ayatollah has a very high rank and religious influence and the iranian religious authority is more or less centralized. maybe i need to clarify the question...

if there are disagreements between scholars, who take precedence? who has the final say on conflicting ideas? is there any hierarchy//ranking among the islamic (maybe sunni for now) religious authorities, i should say...as an analogy, a bishop/archbishop has jurisdiction over several parishes/priests and a bishop's conference for those in a country. is it the same as like there is a pre-eminent chief mosque/imam which has jurisdiction over others? or are they more or less somewhat independent and autonomous and make do with what knowledge they possess?

 

[helping]

@TechnoMagus

I think this is one of the best explanation about Sunni and Shia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMhgt3JRqeU&mode=related&search=

@ anyone who want to get an idea about Islam

theres a really good book called The Vision of Islam by William Chittick and Sachiko Murata

One of the purpose of the book as stated in the intorduction is

To explain islam both to muslim who as a general rule knows nothing about their religion in a deep sense but are defensive, and to westerners who knows nothing but are instinctively hostile

another quote i like is

An American who believe him or herself to be liberal, open minded, unprejudiced will display the most extreme prejudices if asked about Islam, a religion that he probably knows absolutely nothing about,
but immediately will begin to voice opinions, about which if he voice about something else he would feel he was prejudice

 

[ddadain]

Hehe... >_> Well they started it... cough...

Anyways, you know I'm a laid back person :P Sorry if I came on too "ebil" ._.

Spoiler

Now I go kill you in IRC XD

I've done my reading.

You haven't really given me a concrete answer yet. If you think your previous posts was illuminating (or lecturing, to put it in your own words) then I think you are mistaken.

Besides, don't think I'm seeking the answer. There is none.

Belief is a personal choice. The response of people to the calling of the divine.

You forgot to point out more clearly why Sunnis & Shi'a are squabbling. The YouTube thing was a bit interesting XD. The guy made one very generalized statement, that it leads me to question his knowledge on the subject ._. Only the "Papacy" is said to be infallible, yet in Shia Islam, it's the whole "hidden descendants".

As per my previous previous previous post (lol)... The interpretation of the Quran of these two factions are so vastly different, it's astounding, taking into account how distinctly different & hostile they act towards each other. Could it be, the same thing that happened to Christianity, be happening to Islam? The Organizationing of Faith?

 

[PaperYomiko]

Hey guys, just a reminder. Please don't ignore what xi0 has said above. There is no need to provoke one another here. It is not only counterproductive to discussion, but if it gets too out of hand this thread will be closed.

Thanks ^^

 

[xi0]

This discussion can continue, but I have to agree with some previously expressed sentiments ddadain, that you're asking too many questions at once without awaiting answers.

If you already know and read and understand the topic, than why continue to ask questions? You seem to be only baiting others into a response only to tell them that they're wrong.

So please, try not to ask so many questions at once, that is IF you really want someone else's answer.

 

[helping]

Besides, don't think I'm seeking the answer. There is none.

Belief is a personal choice. The response of people to the calling of the divine.

Fair enough, this thread isn't here to impose religious belief on people. Its here to answer queries about religion

and if I ever sounded as if im imposing it to you then my apology, and if in the process I hurt the feelings of people of other belief I really do apologies, thats not what I intended

and all im saying about that book is that it answers a lot of the question you posted in this thread .....not in any way to show you "the answer"...thats all what i meant

 

[ddadain]

._.

So one question at a time? >_> Works with me... Although, I'm used to responding to each point raised, then asking a question...

Although my grand scheme would take longer to occur XD *snickers* lol, j/k...

Of course, the answer is your answer, right? Since, well, you're a monotheist... Perfectly understandable. :P "There's no other god besides Allah," desho?

Some might view the above paragraph to be sarcastic. In a way it is, but REALLY, it is to make a point. If you truly BELIEVE in something, then you must reject everything else that says the contrary towards it. I'll say it again:

Belief leaves no room for doubt​

So never mind being "politically correct" since that would be hypocritical to what you claim is your belief. If you believe that Allah is the only god, then state it as so. Tell me why, or show us why YOU believe him.

The long and short of it is the truth about religion is unattainable.

Now a burst of creativity (lol):

How can finite man
Grasp what is infinite
How can one who's slave to time
Know that who is beyond it

For where is the light in this darkness,
Oh where is the answer to the question
Who will cure this numbness
The self that is eternally empty

~made by DaiN (in 2 minutes)

*oh... my dog wants something...

/me stops typing to see what he wants*

Ja~

 

[Optimist]

hmm... For me to ask why do you trust Allah, is the same thing as asking why are you muslim ?
I'm not good speaker but at least i can recommand you some articls and books that answer clearly to your question ( well, if you are realy looking for an answer ! )

Allah Is Known Through Reason by harun yahya
you can read some chapters online here :
http://www.harunyahya.com/A_tr.php