Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

Jubei_Kibagami

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Fun fact: historically, the first atheists (by use of the Greek base) were, in fact, Christians. Few modern atheists or Christians alike seem to know this detail, nor care really. (It does tickle me a bit personally.)

Hey, something that brings you lot together.

Carry on.
 

ninjabot

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To the mooooon!
 

M3J

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whoo hoo, maybe we can finally see more peace!
 

Sanity Check

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What's really happening in the world right now ^


:toc
 

xi0

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*closes video*

Anyways...
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

What exactly is the point of comparing the existence of God to gravity?

Comparing gender-related topics to saying pedophilia is a sexual orientation? Yeah this guy is a disingenuous moron. Not sure why anyone would pay attention to this lol.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

Granted though, tons of Atheists are indeed dorks.

But acting like whether they espouse "degenerate" ideals or not, pretending like any of them have had the sort of negative influence on the world compared to the insane violence and exploitation that the major organized religions have inflicted is the definition of stupidity.
 

Jubei_Kibagami

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Hmmm,

Achieving (focus on worldly gainz)
with
Money (wordly, too easy, filthy lucre, come on),
Women (stand-in for hedonism), and
Fitness (focus on your dying husk?)

What's missing, esoteric or academic knowledge (gnosticism)?

I would think this video would be right up an atheist's alley, what's the problem?
 
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xi0

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Contrary to what anyone on either side of the topic tells you, there is no real atheist movement. In the sense that the lack of god isn't and shouldn't be treated as a religion. So discussing things from an atheistic viewpoint or whatever means noting to me personally. There's plenty of amazing scientific minds that are religious and plenty that aren't.

But in general, I don't really look for any philosophical queues or social commentary from someone who films themselves getting a massage.
 
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Jubei_Kibagami

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Contrary to what anyone on either side of the topic tells you, there is no real atheist movement. In the sense that the lack of god isn't and shouldn't be treated as a religion. So discussing things from an atheistic viewpoint or whatever means noting to me personally. There's plenty of amazing scientific minds that are religious and plenty that aren't.
Well, there certainly is such a thing or things (networking and websites/forums, adherent seminars, books/media on the topic, even atheistic satanist 'churches'), but I don't believe anyone was implying you were a part of such organization or movement in any structured sense. Scientism is also kind of a thing, although not formally organized it certainly has its priesthood, doctrine, deification, FAITH, and so on (particularly as of late) - a religion by any standard looking in on the outside.

Then, there's mock religions like Dudism or the 'church of the FSM'/pastafarianism. Which is an odd use of time to spend thumbing your nose at something you don't believe in - as a group. I wouldn't spend my life talking about how much I don't believe in the tooth fairy for instance - I simply don't and that's the end of my thoughts about it. For it to take up an exorbitant amount of my time and mental rent is... peculiar to say the least. But, I'm all for people wasting time as best they see fit.

FWIW, from a theistic perspective, atheists are all moving in unison regardless of whether they do so independently or in any sort of 'movement' or organization - and I don't mean in the literal, going-to-hell sense (although there is that thought as well). Hence, the focus on the worldly versus otherworldly as the form of worship. It's just an implicit - worship of career, success, money, sex, fame, acceptance, love, etc etc. The pacification of selfish desires. Not that theists believe they are exempt, at least the honest ones.

But in general, I don't really look for any philosophical queues or social commentary from someone who films themselves getting a massage.
Probably a good idea in general. If not always. Although there's something to be said about the message > messenger.

Not to invoke Godwin's Law, but if Hitler himself said 1 + 1 = 2, you don't disagree because it's Hitler saying it.

As I say that I admittedly have no stock in said video one way or another.

@Sanity Check , you gotta admit it is a little bizzare/douchey giving a lecture while getting a massage? What's going on with that?
 

M3J

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If religion did not exist, or if religious people were more open and accepting, there'd be peace, but nope. Religious people wanna be assholes and bullshit their way into "Heaven"
 

ninjabot

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Is this a parody video? I can't really tell.

I mean you can't choose to believe in a god. You either believe or you don't. He's on some "fake it til you make it" type shit lmfao.
 

xi0

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Well, there certainly is such a thing or things (networking and websites/forums, adherent seminars, books/media on the topic, even atheistic satanist 'churches'), but I don't believe anyone was implying you were a part of such organization or movement in any structured sense. Scientism is also kind of a thing, although not formally organized it certainly has its priesthood, doctrine, deification, FAITH, and so on (particularly as of late) - a religion by any standard looking in on the outside.
"Scientism" filling a role of religion to some people doesn't make it a religion by any standard. It may function as one for those people, but the consequences of any sort of comparable dogma doesn't have anywhere close to the implications that actual religion has IMO.

If religion did not exist, or if religious people were more open and accepting, there'd be peace, but nope. Religious people wanna be assholes and bullshit their way into "Heaven"
This is too absolute. Religion basically exists as form of proto-science, a system of meaning. If you remove that entirely from the history of humanity, there's no way to know anything about what life would be like. It's likely that this "meaning" that we require as a species is what creates systems of belief in the first place. We needed bigger brains for evolutionary reasons, and "meaning" is a byproduct of that. I'm not placing undue importance of it either, as if you remove something as simple as the dog from the history of humanity, our lives would be incredibly different due to that alone.
 

M3J

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This is too absolute. Religion basically exists as form of proto-science, a system of meaning. If you remove that entirely from the history of humanity, there's no way to know anything about what life would be like. It's likely that this "meaning" that we require as a species is what creates systems of belief in the first place. We needed bigger brains for evolutionary reasons, and "meaning" is a byproduct of that. I'm not placing undue importance of it either, as if you remove something as simple as the dog from the history of humanity, our lives would be incredibly different due to that alone.
I mean, ultimately the problem is people and how they treat religions/differing points of view, otherwise I do think religion can be good, like how it made HBK a better person.

Other than that, the "meaning" has been silly, honestly. I think our meaning should be up to us, not a book or a fictional figure. It does feel like the systems of belief was created more to control than for good, though.
What do you mean by knowing anything about what life would be like?
 

xi0

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What do you mean by knowing anything about what life would be like?
If you go by evolutionary biology, our brains became larger out of a need to develop and understand language. Communication becoming important resulted in things like religion existing as an explanation of the natural world. As far as we can tell, that's something uniquely human (or at least primate). It could very well be that this is a chicken and the egg scenario. We might not have become "human" without this.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

That also leads to the whole question of is there meaning in life or meaning in the universe at all? If meaning is something that only exists to us... then how could it really?
 

M3J

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If you go by evolutionary biology, our brains became larger out of a need to develop and understand language. Communication becoming important resulted in things like religion existing as an explanation of the natural world. As far as we can tell, that's something uniquely human (or at least primate). It could very well be that this is a chicken and the egg scenario. We might not have become "human" without this.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

That also leads to the whole question of is there meaning in life or meaning in the universe at all? If meaning is something that only exists to us... then how could it really?
Oh, I thought it was for many reasons, like communication and needing to adapt intelligently to survive. I also read that elders came up with the concept of spirit/god because they had no idea how things worked and didn't want to lose face, so they figured lying was better.

Humans be overcomplicating things. Basic meaning of life is/should be to survive and reproduce to ensure survival of species. As humans capable of thought, our meaning should be what we want it to be, not what anything else says or wants us to be.
 

xi0

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Oh, I thought it was for many reasons, like communication and needing to adapt intelligently to survive. I also read that elders came up with the concept of spirit/god because they had no idea how things worked and didn't want to lose face, so they figured lying was better.

Humans be overcomplicating things. Basic meaning of life is/should be to survive and reproduce to ensure survival of species. As humans capable of thought, our meaning should be what we want it to be, not what anything else says or wants us to be.
Yeah it's several things, but communication is probably at the heart of it. We don't know if it was "lying". Take a smartphone back a thousand years and they'd have no rational explanation for that either. Plenty of very smart people had reasonable justification for not thinking the solar system was heliocentric until Copernicus came along.
 

M3J

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Yeah it's several things, but communication is probably at the heart of it. We don't know if it was "lying". Take a smartphone back a thousand years and they'd have no rational explanation for that either. Plenty of very smart people had reasonable justification for not thinking the solar system was heliocentric until Copernicus came along.
They'd say God or the spirit made the device for whatever reason, I guess.

True. As newer and better technologies were invented and improved, the more we learned and were able to understand how the world worked better. That's one thing that I prefer about science, it'll change and accept new things while religion often either won't or will take too long to evolve.
 

ninjabot

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Making an entire thread in hopes it gets more traction than the pretty much dead religion megathread.

Thread title says it all though: I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they're open-minded and honest enough to answer truthfully. You don't have to go in depth about why you believe what you believe. Just answer whether or not you could be swayed; convinced that perhaps what you thought you knew was wrong. What kind of evidence would it take to alter your worldview?

I'm a fan of Matt Dillahunty's response: that I don't know for sure what it would take to convince me that a god exists... but if there's an omnipresent, omniscient being out there, IT would know exactly what it takes to convince me that it exists. So my lack of belief is tentative; based solely on how much effort this being wants to put into convincing me that it exists.

That said, if this being could simply grant me omniscience and infallibility, that'd get rid of all of my doubts pretty handily, because then I wouldn't be able to throw up the usual atheist arguments referring to potential hallucination and misinterpretation.
 

M3J

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Making an entire thread in hopes it gets more traction than the pretty much dead religion megathread.

Thread title says it all though: I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they're open-minded and honest enough to answer truthfully. You don't have to go in depth about why you believe what you believe. Just answer whether or not you could be swayed; convinced that perhaps what you thought you knew was wrong. What kind of evidence would it take to alter your worldview?

I'm a fan of Matt Dillahunty's response: that I don't know for sure what it would take to convince me that a god exists... but if there's an omnipresent, omniscient being out there, IT would know exactly what it takes to convince me that it exists. So my lack of belief is tentative; based solely on how much effort this being wants to put into convincing me that it exists.

That said, if this being could simply grant me omniscience and infallibility, that'd get rid of all of my doubts pretty handily, because then I wouldn't be able to throw up the usual atheist arguments referring to potential hallucination and misinterpretation.
The only thing that could make me change my mind is God or a deity himself appearing before me and proving he's real. Nothing less.
 

z.5

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Although Newton and Tesla were likely religious, there's a strong likelihood that Einstein and Marx were only using the concept of 'God' to emphasize/make a point - Marx referring to the removal and overthrowing of the old systems of power and control, and Einstein arguing against the bizarre and counterintuitive mechanisms of quantum mechanics

That said... What does it matter what famous people think?
Their beliefs, or lack thereof, lend not an ounce of credibility to the existence/understanding of any particular deity (or their absence)


In relation to the OP:
Matt Dillahunty does make a strong point about how easily the mind can be tricked. It would be impossible to prove that you were not going mad. Even if you had a literal god fall from the sky and physically assault you, you'd still never know that it had actually happened outside of the confines of your mind
 
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