Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

[ddadain]

Finally, someone said they agreed! And LO! This someone is T3H Legendary GK!

 

[krazykone12]

I agree with xi0, saying which religion is superior sounds very close-minded and a little unfair :P

 

[ddadain]

It doesn't have to be which is superior or not.

It's about whether or not those who believe in it really live out what they believe in. This serves as a measure on how really worthwhile it is to adopt it as your way of life. Of course, if it's a genuine path towards paradise, then who wouldn't want to be walking on it?

And as what xi0 said, "the arrogance" is to be expected! If they didn't proclaim their god is the only god, then they wouldn't be true believers! Monotheism is just that. One god ONLY. Besides, I think there are people out there who really proclaim theirs is the only way out of concern for where our eternal souls will dwell when the end times are here Am I right?

But, the obvious flaw in this is the zealousness of some to take their monotheistic views and FORCE them on everyone. This is wrong, obviously because religion, belief is something personal. A choice. One cannot be forced to choose.

 

[hunter71485]

i agree on all aspects of how faith must be exercised, and although i applaud (once again) gold knight for his sentiments, may i respectfully remind you that moderators shouldn't hold any bias towards any topic. just a reminder. don't flame on.

@xi0
if none can truly say they belong to the true religion, then what basis do we have on believing it in the first place?

the one religion that proclaims all others are false and meaningless is science. science itself is made into a religion, something like a cult that is widely held as true, for their basis of truth lies on observation of the world, and things that cannot be explained by science are things which do not exist in the first place.

 

[xi0]

Science has nothing to do with Religion, because Religion is based on faith, which is a belief in something which cannot be proven. Science is based only on facts and nothing else.

 

[TechnoMagus]

oh yeah belated eid mubarak to the moslems here....


for me, one of the most important facets of our humanity is free will, whatever your religion may be. that's why ANY religion converting you by force or in conflict with your free-will is flawed. conversion should be through words, actions and one own's faith (by praying for one's conversion?).

someone who has a superior attitude with his religion should be frowned upon... the least they could do is be "politically correct..."
and AMEN to the separation of church and state!!!!

An Excerpted Adaptation

"When religion and politics travel in the same cart...the whirlwind follows. When that cart is driven by a holy man, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movement becomes headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget that a precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late." - Frank Herbert, Dune"

 

[ddadain]

Oh~

xi0: Science isn't about facts~ Many "sciences" today are based on theory ONLY :P

I mean, they proclaim evolution as "science" but it really is in the realm of "belief". Since the theories conception, NONE of it has been proven without a doubt. Of course, not withstanding, variations or referred to wrongly as "macroevolution" does occur (obviously), no aspect of "microevolution" has yet to be observed IN REAL LIFE. It's a ALL TALK no PROOF science.

Besides that, evolution is based on myriads of other theories, which has proven to be inaccurate, for example carbon dating. Carbon dating was "coincidentally" a few decades from the introduction of the theory of evolution. Coincidentally, it was found that the theory of evolution needed a VERY VERY x 10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^10^*** LONG time to happen. Probability wise, it would be like winning the lottery of every second choosing 100 numbers out of a billion for a million years => Really really very low probability. Thus it needed a very long time to have happened. Now, mathematically, if you want to deduce the original value of something that had decayed, you'd either want to know the rate of decay or how long it has been decaying for~ Scientists don't have either of the two since the rate of radioactive decay of carbon 14 is ONLY fixed when the conditions are normal. Their theory of the stratification of the earth disproves their hypothesis of dating >_> yadadada...

A fact: science is not what scientists say it is.
And... Scientists are liars :P
Duh! They're human too...

 

[Gold Knight]

Science as it is commonly accepted as a definition nowadays is the usage of a scientific method to prove a fact or gain knowledge - sure, some faith in a theory is required for a guy to explore it further and try to prove it to be true, but it has nothing to do with divine intervention or anything. It'd probably be better to talk about science as a separate thread.

 

[hunter71485]

damn keyboard, means i get to re-type everything over again...

@xi0
science IS a religion. it is a belief based on the supremacy of the human intellect, disregarding among other things, faith. and what is a fact? ask a dictionary. isn't a fact something that has been proven that exists in the same sense as a daily occurence? a fact cannot be true or false; truth and falsehood differs on each person's perspective. faith is a belief held by a person that even when proven false, that person will still cling to it, not by habit, but by believing in it.

@TM
political correctness is a nod to globalization, for it is a movement to remove marginalization (as they say) of religion and tradition. while i believe it does good to the economy, being 'politically correct' isn't something i approve of. like differentiating a common dog from a pedigree. they're still dogs, i say.

@ddadain
'evolution' has already been proven wrong. but if they admit it, what would they believe in? they already mocked the Creator, and they can't bear to eat their own words and believe in something intangible. that's why they say the big bang is canon 'theory', strictly 'theory', but they hold it as the truth.

 

[Gold Knight]

@xi0
science IS a religion. it is a belief based on the supremacy of the human intellect, disregarding among other things, faith. and what is a fact? ask a dictionary. isn't a fact something that has been proven that exists in the same sense as a daily occurence? a fact cannot be true or false; truth and falsehood differs on each person's perspective. faith is a belief held by a person that even when proven false, that person will still cling to it, ont by habit, but by believing in it.

That's a very nice statement, hunter, and very convincing. But regardless of whether it is a religion or not, science is still a bit off-topic from what was the original intention of this thread. It's like discussing whether a given sci-fi movie or fantasy movie is scary in a thread about horror movies. I'd really suggest discussing science in all its aspects in a separate thread from this one.

 

[hunter71485]

i'm not discussing it, rather stating it is a religion, but not known for that.

oh, and thanks for quoting me, i saw the typo and fixed it.^^

 

[xi0]

It's not a religion. Theory is BASED on fact...religion isn't.

 

[kiddo7]

look dudes, like most things in life, it all depends on how you define it. according to hunter's definition of certain terms Science can be viewed as a religion whereas xi0' understanding makes the two opposing entities(please do not crucify me over the details of my statements. Understand, I am only talking very generally about abstract concepts). But the really important point here is the one that Our knight in shining armor raised; the direction this is taking is bordering on off topic. Let us please make an effort to refocus and stick to the topic. that is all from me.

 

[ddadain]

A theory is based on an idea, not on facts.

If they were based on facts, why are they theories?

Let's say, Sir Isaac Newton (SIN, lol) saw the apple fall from the tree. An IDEA came to his head that something must have "caused" it to fall. Thus, the theory of gravity was conceived.

Your explanation would make it the reasoning like: "because the apple fell from the tree, therefore there is gravity" ._. Wrong description. The STATEMENT is valid only when you concretely know the existence of gravity. Whereas a theory is: "From my observation of the phenomenon of the apple falling from the tree, therefore I conclude that there is a force that causes this falling of the apple from the tree, and I name this force, which I think SHOULD exist, gravity."

I don't think science and religion should be separate. In fact, many of the greatest minds of science believed in the divine. It's only been in recent history (200 years ago) that the religious denounced the scientific and vice versa.

 

[PaperYomiko]

It's important to remember that 'theory' as used in science is different from the more general meaning of 'theory' as an idea. A scientific theory must be able to be proven true or false through experimentation. So even if it is based on an idea, for it to be a true scientific theory it must end in fact.

This is also one of the key differences between science and religion, and while I may personally believe in one more strongly than the other, I do not think that either is more superior or valid. Just as people should be free to believe in their own faiths and have their beliefs respected, people for whom scientific law is the absolute truth of this world should be allowed the same respect.

Anyway, I'm guilty myself of digressing off-topic here. It's been asked several times already by other moderators to stay on-topic here. Although there are certainly times when science and religion comes into close debate, this isn't the thread for any huge discussion on the validity of science. Let's get this discussion back on subject.

 

[Bouland]

i'm hoping also that there's a shia here so he/she can participate in discussions. but the probability of someone who likes manga and living in iran and iraq makes it quite improbable...

your prayers have been answered

i'm still reading this thread. my next post will be the one discussing this thread and it'll contain a brief introduction on my background

---

hi there

first, i wanna thank every one here especially the guys who answered all question related to islam

I'm new to MH so i decided to browse the forum. this topic took me about 3 hours to read all of its posts but it was worth it

anyway, I'm a shia muslim
i live in kuwait (south of iraq , north of saudi)
although my native language is arabic it is known that to get the true meaning of any ayya in quran u need more advanced studies in arabic, heck even after that u might get the meaning wrong pretty easily

i've been brought up to be a strict muslim but at the end i had my beliefs changed greatly due to ....mm let's just say i grew up

i can answer any question concerning shia muslims and also any suni related question (in school we were taught islamic studies from 1st grade till the end of high school). my country's official religion is islam [suni], shia here are a minority but we never had a problem with suni. we have our own mosques and hosay'neyat which are used for special occasions

my parents sent me to summer camps where islamic studies were going on all day long. so you could say that i can be a little helpful in this thread.

that being said, I'm not a common muslim. my beliefs might be considered wrong by most suni & shia muslims. therefore, in case i have to answer a question i'll answer as any common muslim would answer but i'll be keeping my own beliefs under spoilers

Spoiler

this might be 1 of the major differences
"i believe that each human who did good deeds during his life time would go to heaven whether he's a muslim, christian, jew, hindu, buddist, .. etc "
yes, i believe there is a god, although in my early 20's i didn't believe in god. i believed solely on just ....hmm logic and philosophical ideas that i thought about.
after that day i believe that everyone should answer the question whether there is a god or not by himself not others.

i'll start by stating 1 of the major differences between suni and shia muslims.

suni believe that messiah is yet to be born
while shia belive that messiah was born and is waitin in heaven with jesus (we don't think that jesus was crucified, but it was a different man) for the right day to come before he descends with jesus to start the end of days
to shia massiah is the 12th imaam (he's the descendent of the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) from the 12th generation)

 

[Gold Knight]

I definitely wish most Muslims felt the same way you do Bouland as far as:

Spoiler

"i believe that each human who did good deeds during his life time would go to heaven whether he's a muslim, christian, jew, hindu, buddist, .. etc "

But then, most Christians don't feel that way either. I guess I'm an odd duck like yourself too - I think the whole thing of "being accepted into heaven" is far more complex than most people make it out to be. It's all dependent on what that person believes in and if they remain true to that faith - which, incidentally, needs to be a loving of others type of faith IMO.

For Christians who feel that Jesus is the way to heaven, that's their precognitive because they're taught to make Jesus an important part of their life. But obviously, Jesus hasn't always been around. Things change. God changes the rules according to how he feels people need to act. Sometimes he even changes the way he does things. I think things are different between cultures, too.

I still think the whole concept of Islam originated from a strictly political movement, but I can't deny that Muslims are probably some of the most religious people in the world. I just like the moderate Muslims better, the ones that don't threaten anybody else's life

 

[hunter71485]

you're not an odd duck.

doing good is not just the only thing you've got to do, because most people find that it's like having a burden lifted when they do good.

now, about the part that jesus isn't the way to heaven: do you mean it literally, like you've got to join some odd bunch of people who believe they're the only people who'll be saved because they worship him?

jesus showed us the way to salvation. that's why he is the way to heaven. he set an example. we don't have to pray to him, because he prayed to God the father, right?

 

[ddadain]

Contrary to what you said, Jesus explicitly said he is the ONLY way. Now, if you look at the greek of that famous phrase, "I am the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father except THROUGH me," it explicitly states Jesus' meaning of Him being the ONLY way to the divine. It seems you've have taken things out of context.

Now, context is very important, especially when trying to extract interpretation from books of another age, time, and culture. One cannot just say "since Jesus said 'ask and it shall be given,' then I ask a million dollars in his name! If no million dollar materialize before me or miraculously come by my way, then there's no Christian god." You're taking things out of its context, a thing we call selective interpretation, in which you only use parts of an entire text to give support to your hypothesis. Now, obviously, the above example is really a gross, but UNBELIEVABLY common, method used by people to comfort themselves. That verse doesn't end with "...given unto you," but has the next part saying "...for those whose faiths in me..." (paraphrased by author). And, it doesn't just start with "ask and it shall..." The previous verses sheds light to what it really is saying. That if you ask any need you may have, real need as defined by the context of the verse being spiritual strength, etc., then you have only just ask, seek, and knock.

As per what GK said of the "changing God", both Judaism and Chrisitianity proclaim "God" as being "the same today, yesterday, tomorrow, and forever". He never changes. This is owed to the fact of the very doctrine of God. He (a male pronoun to make it easy), being perfect, does not need to change. He can neither become better or worse or more powerful or less powerful, etc. The unchangingness of God serves as the foundation of faith. It was revealed through the Bible that God is love. Which means, he was love, he is love, he will be love (lol :P Maroon5), he's forever been and will be love. In everything he does, he does it in love. But, of course, that is not the only nature he has.

It is true that Islam has one of the most devout followers. Some accredit this to the close-knit communities and families of typical Arab/Islamic countries. They really embody the concept of "rearing a child", whereas the Westerners seem to don't give much thought to family, and pay more attention to "the rights of the child" and political correctness. The cause of the "post-Christianity" of Europe and the evolution of the US to a "diabolic" state which is shown by the flagrant hostility of people towards Chrisitianity and Islam (more so for Islam for obvious reasons) in the recent news.

It really is a sad world we're living in. And these "religions" don't seem to make much of a difference and rather makes it A LOT worse.

 

[Gold Knight]

^ All this is the reason I am an odd duck, hunter. I tend to be a little more flexible in my beliefs as far as other cultures and God's nature is concerned (not denying that he's love manifest, but a lover has to be able to change the ways he usually does things sometimes in order to love efficiently), but I do believe in Jesus either way.