Society Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

[Ichimaru Gin n Tonic]

A quick reminder from me. Please don't stray from the topic of discussing religions to politics or any other off-topic stuff. The purpose of this thread is to learn about the many religions in the world. Thanks.

 

[hunter71485]

@IGnT
Noted.

There's a phrase that always gets the blood boiling:

The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim

I don't know about any of you guys, but I can rephrase it to:

The only good Christian is a dead Christian

I believe the phrase is correct. Why?
Because you cannot fully judge a person still living, while a dead person cannot do anything anymore. Being judged as a good Muslim/Christian when a person's already dead - not many people understand it, for they take offense - means that the person's deeds have been weighed, and his life and works have been judged as beneficial to those he have interacted with.

And because the said person is dead, he cannot do anything that can discredit him.

 

[Sherbetmayhem]

That is a terrible thing to say, isn't it? That 'the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim' thing. I'm a Christian, and would never, ever dream of saying anything like that.

I've come to the opinon that everyone in the world, including Christians (and definately including myself) has a problem with 'pre-judgement'. It's a serious issue. And it leads to statements like the one Hunter kindly pointed out.

I had a real problem dealing with Muslim people (in fact, people of Arab origin) after the London bombings in July 2005. I was quite suspicious of Arab people simply because the news and media kept repeating to me that Muslim extremists had done damage to 'my country'. Which, of course, eventually started to get old. But the fear it instilled in me wouldn't budge. If I was on a bus and saw somebody get on who looked like a particularly devout Muslim, I was slightly unnerved, and attempted to keep my eye on them.

And I knew what I was doing wasn't right. It's ridiculous to make such a huge assumption, to automatically think that every Muslim is a bomber. So, I decided to try and challenge myself to break this assumptive habit. I went to Jordan over the summer, and taught in some of the school lessons. And I learned that Arab people are some of the most welcoming, friendly, and wonderful people I could ever hope to meet! I mixed with both Christian and Muslim Arabs and they made me feel so welcome and happy! I would LOVE to go back there!

Moreover, I realised how strange it can feel to be the person with 'different skin colour'. I was no longer in the majority. I was the pale white chick, in a world of people who were looking, from my perspective, healthy and tanned ^_^ It helped me to understand how intimidating it can be if people of the 'dominating country skin-colour' (i.e.... white in England, middle-eastern in Jordan etc) stare at you for being different, and so I try not to do that now I'm back in the land of the pasty and pale :P

It was an enlightening experience. Xenophobia is a scary thing. But it is something that can be overcome.

And so I believe the same thing can happen with different religions. I'm a Christian, so I do fundamentally believe my religion is right and others are wrong (just as a Jewish person would believe mine was wrong, or a follower of Islam would believe I am wrong. There's nothing wrong with me stating that). However, I believe the 'religion' is wrong, not the person People who love Jesus love everybody (or they SHOULD do at least, lol) and so should never condemn a person for their religion (saying the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim for example). Tolerance is very important. As is loving each other (or at least... not trying to KILL each other, lol). Let's all just get along, ne?

 

[conan]

sherbet mayhem I think you misunderstood hunter, I think what he meant to say is a good muslim is a dead muslim meaning he can only be judged after death, during his life he is neautral, neither good or bad becuase his deeds are ongoing, I think thats what he meant, I believe similarly. god gave us slack in this life to test us, some get too proud some stay humble, but you can only be judged by humans and even god after death, thats when your deeds finish, thats when judgement can be given, he didnt mean all live muslims or christians are bad, he just meant that judging them to be eternally good is not a right thing to do, people stray, and others find the path.

by the way I hope you liked jordan, I am originally from there, but now I live and study in england, so its your experience reversed, I agree with you tolerance is very important, and prejudgement does result in lots unnessecary hate and lots of misconceptions.

 

[Sherbetmayhem]

Aaaah I see ^_^ Sherby stoopid :P

That's a really interesting perspective. I took it as kind of a derrogative, like as if it were syaing 'muslims should be dead' which is obviously terrible. Hence my reaction :P It's interesting to think that none of us are worth anything unless we're dead ^_^ I don't like to think that way, because I'd like to think my life matters, but the idea that we're judged etc after death is probably quite right

I had a wonderful time in Jordan, thank you! It was so wonderful and I want to go back and have another camel ride

 

[conan]

well death to muslims is like the end of a study term where you have finished your work and lectures, handed in the assignments and did your exams and you get a mark, ( sorry I just had my last exam for this term today) yeah but that really is a good analogy, you cn say in the middle of a studying course that I expect to get an (A) at my exams but you never really know until they actually happen and finish and you get your grades.

camel rides, nope never done that before, I am a city boy from the capital amman, although I am sure youv had the pleasent experience of riding our yellow taxi's, someo f the drivers of those taxi's tell the most outrageous stories, its hollywood material, they got so bored sitting there allday doing nothing.

[ichi]For more discussion and travelling advice, please post on this thread[/ichi]

 

[alex321]

I really don't understand why there is so much war about religion. At some point, it's just what a person beleives in. Do we really need everyone to beleive in the same thing ? Every religion overall have the same goal and it's to give faith to people.

Despite the fact that I currently do not beleive into any religion, because I made a personnal choice against institutions that declared war because they though they were the ones that were right, I still beleive in a higher beeing. And I think thats what everyone beleives in, something bigger than yourself.

I understand some religions are currently put on a bad list just because of some extremists, but overall those people are in every religions... There are american terrorists, asian terrorists, european terrorists. It's not the religion or the continent you are from that makes the difference.

Also, we have different ways of living our lives (how many wives, the way you treat women, etc) but there again, it's just evolution. As long as equality exists, and that at the bottom line everyone is happy.... There shouldn't be any troubles. And again, the only thing we hear about is extremist cases.

Overall, I beleive people are people, and no matter the religion or provenance or whatever, human is prone to mistake and to judge without any real proof.

My personnal experience as a french canadian (we have a really multi-ethnical culture in Québec) is that you can find thing you share with about everyone you meet. And when you don't agree about something, well you can always ignore it and keep it for yourself.

That my 2 cents!

 

[miyi]

just to put it out there...

I've studied a bit of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism, so if you guys have questions, I'll try my best to help in this area.

 

[walkie]

i have one question about taoism, miyi, if you dont mind

i know taoism is build on ying-yang idea but what exactly it says about god and after life ideas, heaven-hell stuff..??

 

[Impel Down]

I studied some Taoism/Daoism in school, and I don't think it ever focused on an afterlife. It was more of a way of living life peacefully than a real spiritual religion, like Confucianism and Legalism of the same Warring States period.

But then again, I got an 87 on the test.

 

[miyi]

i have one question about taoism, miyi, if you dont mind

i know taoism is build on ying-yang idea but what exactly it says about god and after life ideas, heaven-hell stuff..??

Well, Taoists don't believe in God, at least not in the same way as Western religions believe in a God.

To put it simply, Taoists believe that the material world as we perceive them, is artificial. When we let go of this ego-centric perception of ourselves and the world, we will then realize that there is a higher level to what our narrow perceptions can fathom, which is the Eternal Tao, the constant life-giving force, that which gives order to the universe. So in a sense, the Tao is what would be the Taoist equivalent to a "Heaven", but somewhat uniquely different than the usual Western concept of "Heaven". Again, to oversimplify it, Tao is pure energy, and so the objective of a Taoist is to act in harmony with the Tao; in order to do that, we have to recognize that we have an internal energy that flows through us, known as Te. We then need to concentrate this Te energy in order to become fully aware of what is beyond the material, relativistic universe, where ultimate reality means pure energy, or the Tao. Awareness of Tao is sort of the Hindu/Buddhist equivalent of Enlightenment.

And how does one harmonize with the Tao? Through Wu-Wei (a concept that means: to act by furthering the flow, instead of blocking the flow, of Te; roughly, this also means: to act naturally, or spontaneously, without contention, without friction, without intent).

Thus, Taoists prefer simplicity over structure; they prefer a return to the way things naturally are. Do not contend with nature, or energy flow, otherwise, you will be stuck in the material world. By freeing yourself and letting go of the self, and realizing the ultimate reality of the Tao through Wu-Wei, one reaches immortality not materially, but psychically, and spiritually, and more accurately, one becomes immortal energetically.

So is there an afterlife? yes, knowing the Tao means you have become energy yourself (even though there is no "self" to begin with).

 

[Impel Down]

So, it was Ash Wednesday yesterday, so to my fellow Catholics out there, what's everyone doing for lent?

I'm doing the whole no meat on Friday thing, but sans the mandatory fish. That part just doesn't make sense to me. I'm also giving up the vidyas and my iPod. I'm also doing the whole regular fasting, but that's hard to get into since guidelines change for pretty much every church and family, from what I've seen. But anyway, Lent discussion.

 

[hunter71485]

So, it was Ash Wednesday yesterday, so to my fellow Catholics out there, what's everyone doing for lent?

I'm doing the whole no meat on Friday thing, but sans the mandatory fish. That part just doesn't make sense to me. I'm also giving up the vidyas and my iPod. I'm also doing the whole regular fasting, but that's hard to get into since guidelines change for pretty much every church and family, from what I've seen. But anyway, Lent discussion.

What you're actually doing makes no sense to me. All those ritual stuff. Anyone care to explain that? It seems... Pagan to me.

 

[Leen]

What you're actually doing makes no sense to me. All those ritual stuff. Anyone care to explain that? It seems... Pagan to me.

I think it's supposed to remind us of Jesus and his 40 days fasting in the desert.

Last year, I gave up eating egg for 40 days and I fasted for 40 days too. I think I'll do something similar this year, probably giving up something else though.

 

[Gold Knight]

I really don't understand why there is so much war about religion. At some point, it's just what a person beleives in. Do we really need everyone to beleive in the same thing ?

It's a bit like people arguing politics, and everybody knows how tempers can flare over how a government should be like and what should be done about our economy, health care, etc. Why do they argue over it? Because whatever decision is made will affect everybody's lives.

To some people, religion also has this effect too, only spiritually. Some people believe that "spiritual corruption" will result from too many people being "heretics" or "disbelievers." It might result in an undesirable backlash, for example, plagues and things like that. Don't laugh. People can be superstitious.

That's why people call Christians "God-fearing" - it's just a way to say that we know bad things only await us if we make God angry, even though we treat him as a deity of love.

Sometimes I think Christians can be their own worst enemies though. Forcing religion on others isn't going to get God's approval either, and we've done far too much of that in our history.

 

[xi0]

It's a bit like people arguing politics, and everybody knows how tempers can flare over how a government should be like and what should be done about our economy, health care, etc. Why do they argue over it? Because whatever decision is made will affect everybody's lives.

To some people, religion also has this effect too, only spiritually. Some people believe that "spiritual corruption" will result from too many people being "heretics" or "disbelievers." It might result in an undesirable backlash, for example, plagues and things like that. Don't laugh. People can be superstitious.

That's why people call Christians "God-fearing" - it's just a way to say that we know bad things only await us if we make God angry, even though we treat him as a deity of love.

Sometimes I think Christians can be their own worst enemies though. Forcing religion on others isn't going to get God's approval either, and we've done far too much of that in our history.

That's all true, but the reality is that nearly all of modern Christianity arised from the Schisms early in the Catholic Church. I doubt the Christian God would approve of that.

 

[hunter71485]

That's all true, but the reality is that nearly all of modern Christianity arised from the Schisms early in the Catholic Church. I doubt the Christian God would approve of that.

Modern Christianity? All I see now are different factions trying to win as much members as they could for their much-beloved tithing, which is taken from Judaism. There has been so much scandals that happened recently I don't know why I even bother looking for the right one.

 

[xi0]

Modern Christianity? All I see now are different factions trying to win as much members as they could for their much-beloved tithing, which is taken from Judaism. There has been so much scandals that happened recently I don't know why I even bother looking for the right one.

Well, if you were like me, you'd realize there IS no right one. It's fine if one works for you, but it's not a requirement in my eyes.

 

[miyi]

I really don't understand why there is so much war about religion. At some point, it's just what a person beleives in. Do we really need everyone to beleive in the same thing ?

There are a lot of temper, yes. Just from reading a lot of the people's posts here, it seems there's a lot of mistrust.

We can all disagree with others, and that's perfectly normal. But I believe we also have an obligation to at least make an effort to understand why we are so much different.

And then, to have some respectful dialog, in which we all exchange our views with each other, not necessarily "forcing" the other to believe in our views, but simply to "share".

The object should be not to convince, but to reach a level of understanding. That way, we can adjust our way of behaving with each other, since we have no other choice but to become permanent neighbors, since there's only one earth, and we all have to share it.

Religion is here to stay, and we cannot simply make it go away. It's been a crucial element of what makes us humans.

Even atheists ponder whether there truly is something "higher", although more than likely, they'll deny it.

The reason why this approach is imperative is because we are so technologically advanced and we now have the means to destroy each other more fatally than ever before. So rather than simply disagreeing and boldly showing our distaste towards our mistrusted neighbors, we should attempt something more mature and civilized, and that is to learn to respect each other, even though deep down we might still reserve some mistrust towards that "someone". But at least that's a step forward.


And btw, I'm surprised that hardly anyone is interested in learning anything about Hinduism, Buddhism, or Taoism.



about Lent:

even though I'm no longer a practicing Christian, I've decided I will give up meat on Fridays this year. It might not be such a bad thing afterall, I welcome the challenge.

 

[conan]

well actually I am interested in taoism and buddhism, I read your last post about taoism and it explained a lot to me, I didnt know much about taoism philosophy, only that they live rather disciplined life, maybe choosing to be hermits, do you know if such ways of life are still practiced, I am more interested in the way of life of a taoist than its philosophy.

also a question on buddhism, do you know about the story of samson who killed a hundred people and repented, its very similar to a story we were told as muslims, so I just wanted to knoe it.

final question, do you know anything about shintoism.

well thats all, hope I didnt ask too many questions.