Discussion Shanks' Predecessor

[zetsu banned]

Now that we're in the Emperor War arc, something has been stuck in my craw. BB got his position by first taking WB's fruit and then wrecking the remnants of his fleet. What did Shanks do?

More importantly, is his predecessor still around? It seems clear (though unconfirmed) that Mam and Kaidou are from WB and Roger's generation, but Shanks rose to the rank of yonkou insanely fast, especially if he already was by Ch. 1.

Will we see this person in the upcoming war? What could he or she even be like? Hopefully not dead- I can't see Shanks taking the spot like BB did, we know he has no qualms about killing.

 

[kkck]

I don't think shanks necessarily needs to have taken someone out to become a yonko. It is possible his influence and power merely grew steadily and at some point came to be known as a yonko. It's not like merely taking out WB is enough to become a yonko. It's a damn good first step but you also need to take over whatever criminal activity is going on in given places. Yonko aren't a fix or stable organization... Or even an organization. It is merely a group of exceptional criminals.

 

[zetsu banned]

That implies the yonkou system was only made after Roger's death and Shanks succeeded Roger who himself had a pre-yonkou relationship with Mam, Kaidou, and Whitebeard. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but when you think that the New World has been unconquered for hundreds of years (?) before Roger, there was probably a yonkou system in place before the WG even formally recognized it as such. If not then there was definitely a predecessor political system to the goings on in the New World before the Age of Pirates. I just assume pirates had controlled the New World before Roger, hence giving him a (one) reason to conquer it in the first place.

Hm. I didn't word that how I wanted to, but not in a condition to edit much. Hope you get what I meant >_>

 

[kkck]

That implies the yonkou system was only made after Roger's death and Shanks succeeded Roger who himself had a pre-yonkou relationship with Mam, Kaidou, and Whitebeard. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but when you think that the New World has been unconquered for hundreds of years (?) before Roger, there was probably a yonkou system in place before the WG even formally recognized it as such. If not then there was definitely a predecessor political system to the goings on in the New World before the Age of Pirates. I just assume pirates had controlled the New World before Roger, hence giving him a (one) reason to conquer it in the first place.

Hm. I didn't word that how I wanted to, but not in a condition to edit much. Hope you get what I meant >_>

Well, to be fair the term "yonko system" is hyperbole at best. There isn't really an implement system per say, it is not like the world is supposed to be in a specific way. The yonko are merely pirates with control of the underground, powerful crimelords. It is possible that before the current yonko there were other yonko who controlled the underground. But it is also possible that before the current "system" the situation was even more chaotic and you had many unaffiliated crews simply duking it out for power. Also, roger never aimed to conquer anything. He seems to have cared about conquering stuff about as much as luffy currently does. I am not sure of how cannon the strong world chapter is however there is also the consideration that shiki had quite a fleet back in the day as well

 

[Fox666]

Going by Garp explanation of how the Shichibukai were formed to counter-balance the Yonko (about one or two decades ago), I would say there wasn't anything like before and the New World was far more chaotic. Whitebeard, Kaido or Big Mom may have been big shots of the New World for a while, but they didn't ruled over a quadrant of the New World like emperors.

I am not sure of how cannon the strong world chapter is however there is also the consideration that shiki had quite a fleet back in the day as well

There's no questioning on the canonicity of the special chapter in regards of the rest of the manga. I would also say the wiki is wrong in excluding the movie, there are many hints it's also part of the original story.

 

[M3J]

That implies the yonkou system was only made after Roger's death and Shanks succeeded Roger who himself had a pre-yonkou relationship with Mam, Kaidou, and Whitebeard. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but when you think that the New World has been unconquered for hundreds of years (?) before Roger, there was probably a yonkou system in place before the WG even formally recognized it as such. If not then there was definitely a predecessor political system to the goings on in the New World before the Age of Pirates. I just assume pirates had controlled the New World before Roger, hence giving him a (one) reason to conquer it in the first place.

Hm. I didn't word that how I wanted to, but not in a condition to edit much. Hope you get what I meant >_>

According to OP Wiki, the manga never indicated whether the Yonkou existed prior to Shanks and Luffy meeting when Luffy was a kid. For all we know, the New World was full of strong people that led to the rise of the first emperor, or maybe Roger and Whitebeard were the first "emperors."

THough, there's also the chance that Roger and/or Whitebeard beat the Yonkou of their era, much like most of the Supernovas are planning to do.

 

[warriorofvirtue]

well who said there always has to be 4. they could have just added another "yonkou" anytime.

 

[M3J]

If that was true, then they'd be called Gokou, not Yonkou.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

1. Yonko just means 4 Emperors.
2. Emperors are people who hold greatest influence in the New World.
   Spoiler

   
3. Yonkou don't necessarily need to exist for there to be Emperors around.
4. Yonkou is just a title like Supernova, Yonko is 4 Emperors, Supernova is 11 Super-Rookies.
5. With that said, Emperors probably existed even before and during Roger, why? because Whitebeard & Shiki with the largest armada, were the most influential in that time.
6. The concept that people only become influential after Roger died makes no sense, it's like saying Kings didn't exist in the past, there's always hierarchy of some sort, albeit, the titles may have progressively changed overtime, e.g., chief, king, emperor, president.
7. Kaido & Bigmam were never mentioned to be from the same generation as Whitebeard & Roger.
8. and when Roger died, Shiki said this era belonged to Whitebeard, why? because the only 2 people capable of ruling were himself and Whitebeard, but even Shiki's empire had crumbled due to being imprisoned.
9. Part of the reason Whitebeard is underestimated and called a non-achiever by Akainu, is probably because he let people rise up instead to the ranks of Yonko, after Roger's death, he really should have been the undisputed King of the sea.

Shanks doesn't necessarily need have had a predecessor, Shiki could have been that predecessor in the sense that he owned a huge empire until he was imprisoned, and with his sit vacant, it gave rise to many other Pirates which is currently shared by Kaido, Bigmam & Shanks. Or, these were territory that had not been yet expanded over to.

Strongworld the Story isn't Canon, however, the aspects pertaining to Roger and that age all are.

1. Even logically speaking, how can Luffy who had no Gear 4 or Haki defeat Shiki, someone who was defeated by 2 Admirals? He even struggled to defeat Joker, it's unlikely Joker is remotely in the same league as Shiki.
2. There's no way to tell what the time-line between Strong World and any arc, proving it's not Canon, just a movie.
3. No way to tell between what arc and after what arc Strong world occurs in, definitely non-Canon.
4. The clothes change in Movies are specially designed for movies, and have no consistency with his outfit pre or post time-skip.

Also, some proof that Shiki is Canon: Statement from Oda:

Spoiler: Oda: Shiki is Canon

One Piece Chapter 434 was written in 2006.

The Movie Strongworld was released in 2009

​

Oda only released Strongworld in 2009, but he already wanted to involve Shiki (since 2006) in Chapter 434 of Volume 45 which was written in... 2006, before Strong World was created. We should consider as stated in the Manga, that Shiki is still uncaught and Strong-world is completely non-canon as are all other movies.

Spoiler

​

And he says that in his mind, that Shiki is one of the big legendary Pirates in his mind, but didn't add his name in the list there, as to not confuse readers meaning Shiki is canon; Shiki is up there with Whitebeard as would have been mentioned in chapter 434 , therefore, we should consider him canon and uncaught meaning the likelihood of his reappearance is extremely likely.

This I believe proves that the concept of Big Pirates/Emperors in the Roger's era being that they were the most influential.

 

[M3J]

Maybe after Shiki, no one was good enough to become part of the Yonkou or survive in the New World until Shanks came along with his crew. Though, how did he prove he could hang with the Yonkou? Did he beat his predecessor, or did he beat/tie with another Yonkou in a one-on-one match? Or did he just acquire tons of territory and was strong enough to do so and to keep it?

 

[Fox666]

I think it would be important to ask why the Yonko want to be Yonko. Is it just because they are greedy? That doesn't seems to be the case for Whitebeard or Shanks. And keeping a territory is also a responsibility, something that the likes of Roger or Luffy probably would not desire, and I don't think we can say for sure that all greedy pirates would.

Given the recent reveal of the Road Poneglyphs, the Yonko objective may be to find One Piece. That seems to be the case for Kaido or Big Mom at least. While Whitebeard himself didn't want to become the Pirate King, his objective may have been giving Ace the tools to do so. So the territory is just a mean to ensure you possess the Road Poneglyphs. And if that's the case, there would one less reason to keep territory before Roger's death.

Also we don't know how much the world changed since Roger's era. The Marines may had control over the New World back then, since Garp talked about a shift in the power balance. Or perhaps most of the New World may have been unknown to the point it was impossible to claim any part of it your territory. Or the navigation tools were more primitive, making even more difficult to jump between islands in the New World. And so on...

And lastly, there's the terminology. I could say that while there wasn't a president a thousand years ago, there was lords, kings and religious leaders, which were like the president. I could make a parallel between those positions, and while I don't think the similarities can be underestimated, in the end it would still be incorrect to say that a thousand years ago presidents existed.

For those reasons, I don't like the idea of saying that Shiki was like a Yonko.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

For those reasons, I don't like the idea of saying that Shiki was like a Yonko.

Oda said Shiki is one of the great pirates, he just didn't add his name in Chapter 434 as to not confuse readers.

And an Emperor is simply one with great influence, why wouldn't there have been influential individuals pre-Roger?

It's like saying no leaders existed in the past 1,000 years until a certain point; there is always hierarchy.

And Pirates aren't noble, they're supposed to be selfish. Wanting is just part of the nature of being a Pirate, wealth, fame, and all these things are the desires of Pirates. There's no reason why Pirates wouldn't possess territories. Shanks is an Emperor, therefore, he's got control over a huge portion of the New World like every other Emperor, reason why? We don't know, and one doesn't need to be there being that Pirates are naturally greedy.

Even looking at the character of Ace & Roger; as much as Ace hated his father, he wanted the exact same things and did the exact same things, they were literally carbon copies of each other.

Spoiler

1. Wanted Wealth.
2. Fame.
3. Defeat everyone in his way.

It's no surprise that Roger was hated being these were the things he did, and we're told both he and Ace were brought up in similar conditions. Majority of Pirates were probably of the same make up besides their irrational behaviour towards running away from a battle they're likely to lose.

Shiki scoffs at the notion that the Pirate Age has just begun in the sense that, they will rule the Grand Line, they already did in Roger's era. The only change is, there are more Pirates heading for the Grand Line as a result of Roger's treasure, not a new era.

Spoiler

More so, Jinbei is lamenting at the consequences of Whitebeard dying, not just for his beloved Fishman Island, but because the Grand Line which is not ruled by the WG would become all the more chaotic.

Spoiler

Joker himself understands that the sea was never ruled by the WG, which is why he asks who would rule this seas? The Pirates, RA, or the WG? If they were ever in control, then the Pirates should never have possessed territory in the first place. There's a reason why the New World is a Pirate Haven.

Spoiler

 

[ProGoddess]

Shanks is the youngest yonko among the rest but his name appears to hold more power than the others, in the sense that he also gained more respect from people than the rest of the yonko.

During the time in Marineford, his words commanded power, powerful enough to end the war. When he addressed the crowd to stop fighting, no one stood up to challenge him. Even Blackbeard declined to fight him when Shanks challenged him. The Marine Fleet Admiral at that time, Sengoku, could have commanded further attack since all the Marine soldiers were very hyped up at that point after Whitebeard and Ace were taken down. When Shanks requested for Ace and Whitebeard's bodies in order to protect their dignity, Sengoku was willing to shoulder the responsibility of his decision to release them to Shanks. Even as a pirate, the respect earned from his enemy is something significant and notable. I doubt the other present yonko would be having the similar treatment like Shanks. Of course, I believe Whitebeard was also a respectable figure during his time which was another reason why Sengoku was willing to stop the war.

Shanks being so young, as compared to Whitebeard, Kaido and Big Mom, he should belong to the second generation from the three stated. Though Blackbeard has only gained his yonko status recently, he belongs to Whitebeard's generation.

I think there are two ways of looking at Shanks. Firstly, there is a possibility that Shanks inherited the yonko title from the previous yonko, who might have died or got defeated by someone. Since yonko (usually) possess territories in various islands/countries, Shanks could have won over them from the previous yonko. Hence, that person lost his/her title. In fact, he might have even killed the previous yonko, took his/her territories and yonko title.

Secondly, there wasn't anyone at all. Shank rose to be powerful enough to be given the title, through conquering of territories and winning battles over time.

 

[jackthai]

The way I see, if there were more than 4 pirates strong enough with influence to rule new world, they would sure call them gonkou or nanakou and so on. But it happens to have just four and BB was the first to bring on of them down and take it's place.

Since Roger and Shiki shared the same position, after Shiki's defeat against Roger, nothing happens with the position of both as great pirates of that age. Only Shiki lost credibility and part of his fleet but still held his position.

Like ProGodess said maybe there was just three emprerors before Shanks rose to his throne, and after that the WG put him side to side with the strongest rulers of the seas.

 

[kkck]

I think there are two ways of looking at Shanks. Firstly, there is a possibility that Shanks inherited the yonko title from the previous yonko, who might have died or got defeated by someone. Since yonko (usually) possess territories in various islands/countries, Shanks could have won over them from the previous yonko. Hence, that person lost his/her title. In fact, he might have even killed the previous yonko, took his/her territories and yonko title.

I would question whether something like this could be done so easily. Why would killing a yonko straight up give you their territory? Even BB did not quite enjoy such a benefit. As far as the manga has told us he did take over WB's territory but it was not because he ultimately delivered the finishing blow on WB but rather because his knowledge of WB's territory gave him a strategic advantage which he exploited. In essence, BB would be prove that just killing a yonko does not make you king. And however chaotic the new world is, each yonko crew has thousands of members and odds are all of those are to a great extent loyal to their boss. Of course, it is unlikely all of them are 100% but disloyalty should not be the norm. If shanks killls a yonko he would still have to duke it out with virtually everyone else for control over that territory.

 

[zetsu banned]

I would question whether something like this could be done so easily. Why would killing a yonko straight up give you their territory? Even BB did not quite enjoy such a benefit. As far as the manga has told us he did take over WB's territory but it was not because he ultimately delivered the finishing blow on WB but rather because his knowledge of WB's territory gave him a strategic advantage which he exploited. In essence, BB would be prove that just killing a yonko does not make you king. And however chaotic the new world is, each yonko crew has thousands of members and odds are all of those are to a great extent loyal to their boss. Of course, it is unlikely all of them are 100% but disloyalty should not be the norm. If shanks killls a yonko he would still have to duke it out with virtually everyone else for control over that territory.

Your post just gave me a thought. Maybe Roger was previously a 'yonkou'? Shanks taking over his territory that he left behind when he became Pirate King actually makes a lot of sense, given what you said about Blackbeard taking Whitebeard's territory. I imagine Shanks was a lot more peaceful about it, but the parallels are totally there.

I wonder if the term 'yonkou' was only formally coined by the WG after Roger's ascension to Pirate Kinghood/death, and it only existed informally between pirates beforehand because that's the highest number of top-tier pirates that can share the amount of ocean in the New World...?

 

[kkck]

Your post just gave me a thought. Maybe Roger was previously a 'yonkou'? Shanks taking over his territory that he left behind when he became Pirate King actually makes a lot of sense, given what you said about Blackbeard taking Whitebeard's territory. I imagine Shanks was a lot more peaceful about it, but the parallels are totally there.

I wonder if the term 'yonkou' was only formally coined by the WG after Roger's ascension to Pirate Kinghood/death, and it only existed informally between pirates beforehand because that's the highest number of top-tier pirates that can share the amount of ocean in the New World...?

I doubt it. Shanks seemed young when roger died and even that happened some time after the pirates disbanded IIRC. Shanks as a young, and weak, pirate could not have possibly held control over a territory as a yonko would. Even with luffy as he is right now the idea is somewhat asinine and he has the power to exchange hits with the likes of doflamingo and an actual armada. Shanks becoming a yonko is something that should have taken more time and happened as he became as a seasoned pirate. Shanks has had plenty of time for something like this after all, he has been going at it for over 20 years. More so, roger does not seem like the type to take control over territory and such things. Conquest was never his game, roger was in the game of freedom and adventure.

 

[chitgoks]

i think shanks was already a yonkou since wb said when they met that he was surprised that when shanks went back to the new world, he lost his arm.
but he's young so im confused why his arm got bitten off when he could have just used emperor's haki right from the start

 

[Zehahaha]

I don't think there was anything such as Yonko before. Not saying that strong pirates with lots of influence didn't exist but the concept itself was not there during Roger's era

It seems BM is from the same generation as Roger and WB or slightly younger, while Shanks and Kaido are more or less from the same generation with Kaido perhaps being a tad bit older

From the way I see it, the concept of Yonko must've been created after WB/Kaido/BM/Shanks achieved such a level of power that they shared the NW between them (although the WB/Shanks do not strike me as organized as let's say BM or Kaido, BM literally has territories and organized in such a way that she's the head of a state basically, while WB/Shanks are mostly using their name to protect islands and that's it really)

I do think the Yonko concept is a creation from the WG showing that these pirates are in a level of their own, their might and level of organization (especially Kaido and BM) are close to those of the WG (BM's having spies and intel + organized crew, same with Kaido with an organized crew)

 

[M3J]

Pretty sure the main reason why the emperors exist, other than territories, is because they won't risk warring each other because it means at best, 67% chance of losing. Say Shanks beats Big Mom, but he'd most likely lose to Kaidou or the Marines because his crew is weakened immensely from the fight against Big Mom, suffering heavy losses. They're so close in strength that they can't war each other without suffering heavy losses, and if an enemy learns about that then they could sweep in to finish the winner off.