Canon Shanks vs Mihawk

[DLord.Van.Buuren]

Mihawk was the one that use to seek Shanks out for a duel, which to me quite simply mean Shanks is stronger . You don't seek out someone who you are superior to for a duel. Also knowing Shanks personality i doubt he was even fighting Mihawk seriously. Probably wasn't even using haki, duels were probably just completely sword fights.

totally unconvincing reasoning you have no argument on that whatsoever as it is normal because it wasnt mentioned before . they fought that's all we have .

 

[RichardMNixon]

To me, this is the argument in a clear little line.

To restate it without begging the question: Is haki a distinct skill or is it wrapped up in however else you describe your ability? Is the greatest swordsman also the greatest at using haki with his sword?

I saw people in this war explicitly mention haki as if was something special: "Whitebeard stabbed Aokiji with haki!" suggesting haki was not just an innate part of Whitebeard's stabbing. When Marco and Vista attacked Akainu, he groaned something to the effect of "Ugh, haki users" (seems to contradict your "no haki man" thing a bit too) and not "Ugh, people with great talent with their weapons." They also quaked in fear at witnessing Haoshoku.

As far as I can tell, the other contingent apparently thinks haki is a parlor trick and either wouldn't matter in a fight against Mihawk or is already incorporated into his Greatest Swordsman title. That last argument is the only valid one of the two in my eyes and probably just comes down to fanboyism.

So does Mihawk's skill with a sword include his skill with haki? The way haki was described in this war, I would say no.

---

Remember how he wet himself regarding BB.

Wetting himself? He threatened Whitebeard over it. He wasn't scared, he was concerned. So was Whitebeard.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/552/14/

Again, I've also yet to see Mihawk split the sky in half as a side effect of fighting. How do you cut the sky? The sky didn't split when Whitebeard cut anything else with his bisento during the war. And he was serious this time.

 

[Primecut]

I never saw Whitebeard once react in a way that showed that this wound was painful.

Better reread the entire battle like I said.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/568/10/

Besides, WB seemed to commit himself to dying the moment he walked onto this battlefield, thus giving 110% and going beyond what remains of his limits. What motivation does anyone else in this battle (except maybe Luffy) have to give more than their own lifeforce?

I admit WB was probably holding back for half the battle, but since you believe this is akin to WB not holding back on his beloved ship whilst high fiving Shanks. Clearly WB was not holding back, and his little Moby Dick is made out of seastone or something.

Let me just get this straight. You believe Whitebeard was giving 110% the moment he walked onto this battlefield AND at the same time he was holding back half the time. Debating with yourself there I see? While contradictory statements like these make it easy for me to shred your argument I'd dare say you are making this too easy for me.

Haha what? Are you trying to "school" me? Feels more and more like I'm debating with a kid whose argument is "is too!" but anyway.

Wait now it is making sense, you are debating with yourself, clearly.

I can't prove Shanks isn't in the same ballpark.

But if you believe Akainu isn't in the same ballpark, then I can sure as hell prove Shanks isn't with just as much logic.

Akainu's ballpark compared to WB:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/567/14-15/

Shanks' ballpark compared to WB:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/15/

They both appeared to have clashed. Neither is damaged, good times. My point is, with the last post, that Shanks and Akainu are probably in a very similar ballpark. Whether a fit WB is in the same ballpark is nearly impossible to tell, because we have never seen a "fit" WB.

Your example of Akainu being his equal is simply awful. Whitebeard already was stabbed by Squaddo and wasnt using his full power. Here is what happens when Whitebeard gets serious. If Akainu was in Whitebeard's ballpark I'd say Whitebeard just hit a home run and Akainu was his ball.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/575/06-07/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/575/08-09/

Notice the entire plaza being destroyed from one swing? I dont see that kind of power in your scans. The scan where he splits the sky with Shanks is also a whole different league than what you are trying to pass off as evidence.

Firstly, the "hole" in the chest. Hole is excessive, it's what Ace had after Akainu fisted him. He had a stab wound. Luffy's seen worse stab wounds and gotten up, it would be a travesty to see Whitebeard (titled the world's strongest man) go down from one shot.

You just like digging yourself a grave dont you? I cant believe you just claimed Luffy tanks better stab wounds than Whitebeard. Well anyway, I dont like kicking my opponent when he is down but here is your argument being torn to shreds (again).

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/178/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/179/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/180/04/

vs.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/563/14-15/

Just for the record, the wound is indeed portrayed as a big gaping hole in Whitebeard's lower chest. I don't think I need to teach you what a hole is do I?

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/566/16-17/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/566/18-19/

---

Seriously, I did apologize and it was just one time. Not that Im doing that constantly. Anyway why are your ignoring my posts? Im still waiting for a answer on my question (definition of a swordsman).

Your poor argument is that Shanks is a Yonko and he is using the same haki as WB did, so he is stronger than Mihawk. Ridiculous, since when is Shanks equal to Whitebeard?! You are basing everything on a clash, that wasn't even a fight! It's like exchanging the first blow and calling both equals cause it was a draw. WB is godlike, but Shanks? Remember how he wet himself regarding BB.

It's good that you apologized but putting arguments into your opponents mouth is akin to lying and makes you lose credibility. Would you have even apologized if someone didnt call you on it first? Then you hid it in a spoiler like it is okay to do that still.

You want to play ball legit then okay. First of all Shanks wasnt wetting himself over Blackbeard, show the scans if you want to nitpick at out of context statements Shanks has made. The fact is that he told Whitebeard that Blackbeard was too strong for Ace and he was right. Get it straight. All you proved is that Shanks is in the know with current events and how they will play out.

It doesnt matter if it was a fight. It was a display of his power and he split the sky whether you like it or not. Shanks also has passive haki that KOed Whitebeard's weaker crew members. Whitebeard doesnt KO ANY of his own crew members with his haki last time I checked.

Shanks likely has more haki and less physical strength, how else could he match Whitebeard's double armed swing with only his one arm? Whitebeard casually physically stopped a ship from proceeding with one arm himself, so that would mean Shanks's strength is immense since he stopped a two handed swing with one arm from this man.

It seems more rational that he is more of a haki guy based on his feats but if you want to say he is just that strong then that is fine too, either way he's a Whitebeard equivalent based on his current displays.

What is the actual claim you are making here anyway? That Shanks doesnt have enough Haki to do what Whitebeard did? I believe he has already shown otherwise based on the sky splitting clash and his passive haki feats.

 

[DLord.Van.Buuren]

now the problem is why would shanks be helping whitebeard if they actually had a conflict during that clash the only answer is it wasnt for real .
i believe that only whitebeard's power could split the sky there is no way haki can do that simply because it doesnt make sense .

 

[BlackHair]

The sky didn't split when Whitebeard cut anything else with his bisento during the war. And he was serious this time.

First of all it was caused by the clash by WB AND Shanks; also right now WB is fighting the WG forces not the sky...

Again and again that freaking sky split thing doesn't matter. Im telling it is it is just Oda's way to show them off. Well nevermind, Im tired of the damn sky split. Just a quick question:

Do you believe now that every time Shanks uses a sword the sky will split? Plz just answer me with a yes or no, I need to frame that into my sig. So that if the time comes, I can break this argument.

Would you have even apologized if someone didnt call you on it first?

I didn't even noticed those two sentences under your post, only after L.Rayleigh pointed them out. So i wouldn't have apologized, since I wouldn't noticed. Not that I care what you think of me personally, just wanted to put things straight. Since it seems you are thinking that I did that with intention.

Then you hid it in a spoiler like it is okay to do that still.

Aren't you now putting sth into my account? I wrote that part in spoiler tags from the very beginning, I didn't edited anything. Since that would confuse reader while reading L.Rayleigh's post (Not that I expecting anyone to read our posts, just for the archive). To proof my point, there is no sign of editing on the bottom of my post.

It was a display of his power and he split the sky whether you like it or not.

So Shanks split the sky? What the hell you talking about? The sky split was caused by the clash of WB and Shanks. Both together split the sky, not he alone. Use some physic's then u will understand. Not that is relevant in any way in the fight with Mihawk to begin with.

Shanks also has passive haki that KOed Whitebeard's weaker crew members. Whitebeard doesnt KO ANY of his own crew members with his haki last time I checked.

Shanks koed the weakling since it was a enemy ship. WB has no reason or whatsoever to knock out his own men.

Shanks likely has more haki and less physical strength, how else could he match Whitebeard's double armed swing with only his one arm? Whitebeard casually physically stopped a ship from proceeding with one arm himself, so that would mean Shanks's strength is immense since he stopped a two handed swing with one arm from this man.

Those two weren't serious, especially Whitebeard, who didn't even used a DF. Otherwise Shanks would be dead by now.

Shanks was there to talk not to fight, his own words in the beginning. That clash was not a fight, it was just a single clash. That was probably their way to let out the steam, caused by the off going meeting. Otherwise Marco, Jozu and the dudes from Shanks crew wouldn't stand there watching the sky.

It seems more rational that he is more of a haki guy based on his feats

What feats are you talking about? The only two feast I can see are 1. knocking out the fodder and 2. that he is wielding the kings haki. However you are not putting any attention to hints, portraying Shanks as a swordsman. Lastly, there is no such thing as a haki man. I explaining that since the last couple of pages by now... Apparently Richard dropped that, now you are gone start that again..

As long Shanks uses haki with a sword, he is a swordsman. Hence he is inferior to Mihawk's title.

What is the actual claim you are making here anyway?

1.) Im saying that if there was a fight between Shanks and Mihawk, Shanks would die. While Mihawk would lose several body parts accomplishing that. They are equal, while Im expecting Shanks to be slightly weaker. Similar Lucci vs Luffy. Luffy won, cause he was the last man standing, however he was almost dead.

2.) Im saying that the clash doesn't matter. It was Oda's way to show us how strong those two are. It's not like the sky will split each time, they are fighting. That was one time only. I can give examples based on other manga such as Bleach, if u don't understand what Im trying to say. Plz read the top of my post, quoiting Richard.

3.) You can't say Shanks is as strong as WB based on a simple clash. Which was not a fight. Shanks is on his equal grounds (that's for sure) but he would go down just like Akainu. I might be ass pulling now but seriously I have no reason to think otherwise.

Edit:
Lastly, Im still awaiting from you guys the definition of a swordsman according to your opinion, of course if you don't mind.

 

[RichardMNixon]

First of all it was caused by the clash by WB AND Shanks; also right now WB is fighting the WG forces not the sky...

Again and again that freaking sky split thing doesn't matter. I told you before it is Oda's way to show off. Well nevermind, Im tired of the damn sky split. Just a quick question:

Do you believe now that every time Shanks uses a sword the sky will split? Plz just answer me with a yes or no, I need to frame that into my sig. So that if the time comes, I can break this argument.

So Shanks split the sky? What the hell you talking about? The sky split was caused by the clash of WB and Shanks. Both together split the sky, not he alone. Not that is relevant in any way in the fight with Mihawk to begin with.

Shanks koed the weakling since it was a enemy ship. WB has no reason or whatsoever to knock out his own men.

Those two weren't serious, especially Whitebeard, who didn't even used a DF. Otherwise Shanks would be dead by now.

Edit:
Lastly, Im still awaiting from you guys the definition of a swordsman according to your opinion, of course if you don't mind.

So why didn't Mihawk haki out the weaklings attack him if he's so great at it too?

Whitebeard has hit people during the war, the sky didn't split then. And WB and Shanks weren't attacking the sky either. Looks like Shanks has something to do with it to me.

You say WB didn't use his power, dark lord said the sky split because of his power. Which is it?

No, I don't think the sky will split open every time Shanks hits something, but I think splitting the sky vs splitting a ship, an iceberg, or failing to split Joz is a greater show of power.

I define a swordsman as someone who fights with a sword. If you fight with a sword and haki (and Akainu indicated that Vista did this explicitly, "haki user") you are more than just a swordsman.

 

[Truefan21]

haki is a part of you just like your muscles, its something that you are born with so if mihawk has it he is STILL is a swordsman.

 

[BlackHair]

This is the last time I will ever talk about the freaking sky split. If there is still a disagreement after this post then lets agree to disagree. I don't think we will change our mind, so let us just end this.

Spoiler: 8min of paint work xD

The graphics are self explaining. The forces of WB and Shanks caused a shockwave, whereby the sky split. The impact was created by equal forces (only referring to that clash, not saying that Shanks is WB's equal).

So why didn't Mihawk haki out the weaklings attack him if he's so great at it too?

To exactly which part of my post are you referring to? I do think Mwk can use haki, but that's at this point only a assumption of mine. That's why I didn't mentioned that (lately).

To answer ur question: 1) Maybe he can't use haki 2) maybe he though it would be easier and faster to just cut them 3) Oda is keeping Mwk for the finale, thus most of his abilites stays hidden. 4) etc

To put it simply I can't answer that and I don't understand why and where that question comes from. I tend to go with 3 though.

Whitebeard has hit people during the war, the sky didn't split then. And WB and Shanks weren't attacking the sky either. Looks like Shanks has something to do with it to me.

No, to me it looks like the impact caused the split. That impact was created by Whitebeard AND Shanks. Seems to me as the most logical explanation. See the stupid graphics above in the spoiler tags.

You say WB didn't use his power, dark lord said the sky split because of his power. Which is it?

Im saying the split was caused by both of them. WB's weapon wasn't glowing with quake, so most likely he didn't use his powers. WB wasn't serious, otherwise he would have damaged his own ship. <- That's my opinion. Dark Lord and me seem to have different opinion on that.

I define a swordsman as someone who fights with a sword. If you fight with a sword and haki (and Akainu indicated that Vista did this explicitly, "haki user") you are more than just a swordsman.

ty for answering, I have a question though: What do you mean by more? Either you are a swordsman or not. So is Vista according to your view not a swordsman?

 

[RichardMNixon]

This is the last time I will ever talk about the freaking sky split. If there is still a disagreement after this post then lets agree to disagree. I don't think we will change our mind, so let us just end this.

To put it simply I can't answer that and I don't understand why and where that question comes from. I tend to go with 3 though.

No, to me it looks like the impact caused the split. That impact was created by Whitebeard AND Shanks. Seems to me as the most logical explanation. See the stupid graphics above in the spoiler tags.

Im saying the split was caused by both of them. WB's weapon wasn't glowing with quake, so most likely he didn't use his powers. WB wasn't serious, otherwise he would have damaged his own ship. <- That's my opinion. Dark Lord and me seem to have different opinion on that.

ty for answering, I have a question though: What do you mean by more? Either you are a swordsman or not. So is Vista according to your view not a swordsman?

That drawing doesn't really mean anything but it agrees with me anyhow. You said previously that Whitebeard didn't cut the sky in the war because he wasn't aiming at the sky. As your pic shows; they weren't either. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Vista is a swordsman, but I don't consider his swordsmanship to be the only factor in his "total combat ability" or whatever you'd want to call it. He's also a "haki user" as stated explicitly by Akainu. He uses both of those abilities in battle.

 

[BlackHair]

Sry for bringing that up, just wanted to clear sth.

You said previously that Whitebeard didn't cut the sky in the war because he wasn't aiming at the sky. As your pic shows; they weren't either.

No the clash was caused by two ppl, so they don't rly have to aim for the sky to have it split. But if you are trying to split the sky alone, u will have to aim for it.

Vista is a swordsman, but I don't consider his swordsmanship to be the only factor in his "total combat ability" or whatever you'd want to call it. He's also a "haki user" as stated explicitly by Akainu. He uses both of those abilities in battle.

I believe haki is included in being a swordsman. If you are mainly fighting with swords and capable of using haki, you will be still a swordsman. Vista and Shanks are, imo.

Imo, Haki is just a burst, not a skill on its own like a DF for instance. Haki can be used with any fighting style so I think it just right to state Vista as a swordsman. However given Mihawk's title by Oda (and the whole Zoro thing), he is weaker than him.

 

[bittman]

Dear Primecut,

Thanks for continuing to hijack the thread with Akainu vs Whitebeard, please continue here: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1822612#post1822612 (post at end of linked got removed. But imagine the greatest debating answer you've ever seen. So blindingly brilliant that mods had to remove it else it would cause people to give up debating stuff in One Piece)

If you would care to get back on topic, I don't believe you've been able to counter either of my counter-Shanksiswhitebeardwithawardwinninghaki arguments.

Sincerely,
Bittman

@Blackhair: I count a swordsman as anyone who "PRIMARILY" uses a sword.

Examples would be Vista (also uses haki), Shiryuu, Mihawk, Zoro, Ryuuma, Brooke (also uses music), Captain T-Bone and Hacchi (uses fists also).

Possible swordsman (unproven due to little screentime): Law (also uses DF), Shanks (also uses haki), Killer

NOT swordsman: Giraffe guy (legs more than swords), Kidd (DF), Mr 1 (ability), Nightmare Luffy (fists more than sword), Arlong (sword was only a small part of his arsenal) and Skypeia Trial of Iron guy (less a sword than a universal metallic tool).

Enjoyed your 8000 hours in MS Paint by the way. Good to see someone gets the idea that Shanks didn't stand back and go "Watch this bitches" and cut the sky by himself. For everyone else, I (and Blackhair I presume) aren't saying it's not impressive. It's freaking impressive. But it wasn't Shanks. It was Shanks + Whitebeard.

Algebraically:
Shanks + Whitebeard = sky splitting
Sky Splitting - Shanks = Whitebeard
Sky Splitting - Whitebeard = Shanks

Whitebeard =/= Shanks
Sky splitting =/= Shanks
Sky splitting =/= Whitebeard

EDIT: And regarding the above. Devil Fruits are tools. Swords are tools. Haki is a tool. Your fist is a tool.

108 Pound Canon is a skill.
Imbuing Haki in your weapon is a skill.
Gear 2nd is a skill.

Shanks has a sword (tool) + haki (tool). Mihawk has a sword (tool). This doesn't mean Shanks is 2x more powerful, it just means he has two tools. Zoro has three swords (3 x tools), doesn't make him 3x more powerful than Mihawk.

 

[DLord.Van.Buuren]

Whitebeard =/= Shanks
Sky splitting =/= Shanks
Sky splitting =/= Whitebeard

.

actually, Sky splitting = Whitebeard

 

[Schabrak]

Shanks vs Whitebeard

actually, Sky splitting = Whitebeard

Would you stop spamming please, it's annoying on the highest level. Such statement without any argument is simply trolling. People make an effort, to base their theories on, and you stamp on them with such a comment.

I don't really want to talk about Whitebeard in this thread, but how should he alone be able cut the sky. From his attacks shown in the war only, he did not seems to such a good swordsman, but a strong man using a big weapon to increase his attack/strike force using the momentum and cutting force. Unlike Mihawk who's a powerful swordsman, that can create shockwaves that cut from afar using his knowledge/skill in swordmanship.
So meaning that his strike alone won't make the sky split, but only a clash between mighty personas.
-> bittman is/should be right.

 

[DLord.Van.Buuren]

Re: Shanks vs Whitebeard

Would you stop spamming please, it's annoying on the highest level. Such statement without any argument is simply trolling. People make an effort, to base their theories on, and you stamp on them with such a comment.
.

that's okay for me . i'll be more than glad to argument
now that im thinking about it they are actually annoying but mine are usually facts that no one likes .
WB split an island so a cloud should be easier .
dont tell me that the the heavens were cut they were SPLIT.
do i make sense now .

 

[RichardMNixon]

Re: Shanks vs Whitebeard

that's okay for me . i'll be more than glad to argument
now that im thinking about it they are actually annoying but mine are usually facts that no one likes .
WB split an island so a cloud should be easier .
dont tell me that the the heavens were cut they were SPLIT.
do i make sense now .

They didn't split a cloud, they split the sky. Think about that for a second. What is the sky? What does it even mean to cut that? They explicitly specified that it wasn't clouds that were cut, it was the freaking sky.

Those pics didn't really mean anything. You could have just as easily said the shockwave would spread out horizontally and decapitate everyone nearby. Are strikes vectors? Then they'd just cancel. If anything, Whitebeard's strike is aimed mostly downward in that frame and Shanks' parallel to the ground.

Shanks has a sword (tool) + haki (tool). Mihawk has a sword (tool). This doesn't mean Shanks is 2x more powerful, it just means he has two tools.

Except you're leaving out the magnitudes, so that's just gibberish. Zoro's "tools" aren't equal to Mihawk's "tool." If Shanks's sword abilities are nearly equal to Mihawk's while his haki abilities are far beyond Mihawk's (as I'm led to believe (the damage to Moby Dick is a bigger deal than the sky even, no where else have we seen objects physically damaged by someone's presence)), then it would make Shanks more powerful. If each is less than half as powerful as Mihawk's sword ability, then no he wouldn't be.

__________________________________________________________

When it really comes down to it all either of them have at the moment is reputation. Mihawk is a great swordsman; Shanks is Red-Haired Goddamn Shanks. If you think swordsmanship is all it takes to beat this guy

Spoiler

then we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Yabe]

I've got to delete several bashing/flaming posts here. The forums rules are there to be minded of and to follow. Please try to keep your constructive arguments as neutral and civil as possible. If you can't seem to restrain the arising annoyance/temper from being misunderstood/inquired while exchanging your arguments then refraining from the discussion for a while is a healthy solution to take.

 

[deffkryz]

Re: Shanks vs Whitebeard

that's okay for me . i'll be more than glad to argument
now that im thinking about it they are actually annoying but mine are usually facts that no one likes .
WB split an island so a cloud should be easier .
dont tell me that the the heavens were cut they were SPLIT.
do i make sense now .

So - if I get this right - you're implying that Shanks may have reflected WB's splitting attack with his sword up to the sky... Pretty interesting and doesn't seem that farfetched to me.

 

[braindamage351]

Shanks is probably stronger. Mihawk doesn't seem to be any stronger than the top division commanders, while Whitebeard could practically oneshot them. How could Shanks be Whitebeard's equal if he couldn't even beat his subordinates in a duel?

 

[Fox666]

I don't see why people are pointing Shanks and Whitebeard splitting the skies as a prove that he is stronger than Mihawk. Mihawk is the gratest swordman. You can argue that Shanks is not a swordman, you can argue that Shanks ate a Devil Fruit (which I doubt), but you can't argue that Shanks is better than Mihawk in swordmanship.

In other word, probably a lot of characters can split the sky. Mihawk cut 30km of ice mountain as a "side effect" of his battle with Luffy. Probably Vista and Shiryu can also make a sky split.

Just to remember that Whitebeard power is the Gura Gura no Mi. If Whitebeard wouldn't be allowed to use his Devil Fruit, he would probably loose to Mihawk. Whitebeard didn't destroyed the Ice mountain with his bison, he used his Devil Fruit. In fact, the moments he didn't used his Devil Fruit in his bison, he could thrown away a bunch of marine commanders, but that's it.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Whitebeard is strong just because he ate the Devil Fruit. Whitebeard has the greates control over the Devil Fruit power seem so far, he trained a lot of experience he and can do crazy things. If Whitebeard had trained his entire life just to use his bison instead of the Devil Fruit, he could be better than Mihawk, but that's not the case.

 

[Primecut]

I don't see why people are pointing Shanks and Whitebeard splitting the skies as a prove that he is stronger than Mihawk. Mihawk is the gratest swordman. You can argue that Shanks is not a swordman, you can argue that Shanks ate a Devil Fruit (which I doubt), but you can't argue that Shanks is better than Mihawk in swordmanship.

In other word, probably a lot of characters can split the sky. Mihawk cut 30km of ice mountain as a "side effect" of his battle with Luffy. Probably Vista and Shiryu can also make a sky split.

Just to remember that Whitebeard power is the Gura Gura no Mi. If Whitebeard wouldn't be allowed to use his Devil Fruit, he would probably loose to Mihawk. Whitebeard didn't destroyed the Ice mountain with his bison, he used his Devil Fruit. In fact, the moments he didn't used his Devil Fruit in his bison, he could thrown away a bunch of marine commanders, but that's it.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Whitebeard is strong just because he ate the Devil Fruit. Whitebeard has the greates control over the Devil Fruit power seem so far, he trained a lot of experience he and can do crazy things. If Whitebeard had trained his entire life just to use his bison instead of the Devil Fruit, he could be better than Mihawk, but that's not the case.

Sky >>>>>>>>> piece of a Glacier. Vista and Shiryu can make the sky split? Scans?