Discussion Shichibukai Vs Yonkou

[kkck]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

No not Really. A swordsman is a fighter who uses in every battle a sword, a all time sword fighter. Like Zoro, in every battle he is using a sword. For example, Nightmare Luffy.. he was able to fight with a sword, but his primary fighting style his bare-hand based, so he isn't a swordsman.

Well, according to what you wrote, then it is simply imposible to know if shanks is a swordman or not. We have seen him in action once, and we didnt see how things ended. That one time technically shouldnt be enough to put him in or out of the swordman category.
But we do have 3 pieces of evidence that suggest shanks is a swordman though:
1.- Shanks in his yougth using a sword. By no means conclusive but it still supports the theory.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/10/
2.- Shanks using a sword againts whitebeard. IMO if I am going to fight with the only man who tied with the PK, then I use my primary fighting stile. I dont think shanks would attack the whitebeard without his primary fighting technique.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/15/
3.-The third piece of evidence are the duels between Shanks and Mihawk. Mihawk is a swordman and takes pride in it. If shanks was able to keep up with mihawk in terms of swordmanship, then he has to be a hell of a swordman. I dont think mihawk had several duels with shanks because mihawk defeated him all those times or he would care about a duel with him if he wasnt a swordman. Also it would make sense that there were several duels between them if they were equal, Mihawk most likely wanted to be acknowledge as the best.

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Also nightmare luffy had a swordsman's shadow in him. In fact he had 100 shadows in him. The moment luffy got all those shadows, luffy became W/E the owners of the shadows were because he gained their skill.

 

[Antares]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

I'd say that Shanks would win since his fight with Mihawk occured before Shanks became Yonkou. I think Shanks leveled up more than Mihawk, because Yonkou are four most powerful pirates which equal to WG and Shichi as a whole.

I'd say that Mihawk's swordmanship is better. He has better techniques, speed, etc when it's pure swordmanship. But unfortunately, i don't think Mihawk has Haki, the most powerful ability in One Piece yet, owned only by the most powerful ones, that can split the sky, imbued into weapons to produce sickly strong feats that can cut light (Rayleigh's) regardless of the person's swordmanship.

This "Yonkou" title, and Haki, are why i think Shanks will win.

 

[Cobra Grasso]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

We really know very little of Shanks when it comes to fighting other than he's sum kind of swordsman.

2 or 3 chapters of seeing him fights someone would be epic as hell.

 

[BlackHair]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

Well now my Mihawk vs Shanks theory: Fighter who are using mainly a sword for their battle are called sword fighter. They only use swords in battles, which makes them into swordsman. Here we the SHs preparing for battle with their preferred weapon: Zoro and Brook are ready to draw their swords, Nami her Perfect-clima-tact, Ussop his Kabuto etc. On this page we see Shanks right before a battle drawing his sword.

Shanks was a former rival of Mihawk, both used their top sword skills to duel, which are now considered as legendary. I base this on WB comment: [..even the duel between u and Hawkey..] and on this: Shanks asking Mihawk if he is there to fight.

This is a quote of a Date book about Shanks, unfortunately I don't know in which one it was released:
"At first, the left-handed Shanks had simply carried his sword on the right side. When he was a rival of Mihawk, he was regarded as having some of the world's top-class skills"

I repeat, he is called former rival and his battle with Mihawk seems quite famous. Reading Mihawks comment: [I have given up thinking about fighting the one arm-man like you, for a long time ago], I get it like, he lost interest in Shanks, 'cause he won the rivalry and is now stronger. The loss of the rivalry was probably 'cause he lost his dominant left arm. On Rogers ship we see him using his left arm to draw his sword, later his right arm. Rayleigh also said, Shanks lost two of his trademarks, his straw-hat and his left arm.

I know in the databook its said, that didn't lose in power cause of his arm. But I believe it did cause him the loss of the rivalry, though later he managed to get even stronger with only arm.
So all in all, he is now stronger than before with both arms, but at this moment weaker than Mwk.

To sum it up: Shanks is called former rival of Mwk and now he is carrying the title strongest swordsman; common sense tells he lost the rivalry. In the date book he is said to have top sword skills, even in the past it seems he used only a sword, which does him makes a sword fighter, in fact I can't recall him seeing/portraying without his sword. As a swordsman he is obviously weaker than the strongest swordsman, a title which was labelled by Oda for Hawk-Eye.

So far my theory, I took every (for me) known hint into consideration to come up with this. at this point, it seems for me as the only logical one. Just let me say this, u have to take every known hint (Manga+date book) into consideration and not only those who are useful for u.
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Also nightmare luffy had a swordsman's shadow in him. In fact he had 100 shadows in him. The moment luffy got all those shadows, luffy became W/E the owners of the shadows were because he gained their skill.

Yes exactly, he had 100 fightings styles in him + his own. Still he used more bare-hand based attacks on Oz and just one slice with his sword. That doesn't make him into a swordsman.

I think Shanks leveled up more than Mihawk, because Yonkou are four most powerful pirates which equal to WG and Shichi as a whole.

Sry, but that doesn't make any sense. Yonkou=M HQ=7 Gods!
Shanks and Mhk are only a part of the power of their group. Those groups are all in whole equal. Or r u saying Shanks represents with his crew the whole Yonkou all alone? Yonkou = 4 Emperor..<- Shanks is one of them not all four, this is One Piece, not Kage-bunshin from Naruto. One of the reason why he got the title Yonkou apart of being himself strong is also 'cause he is leading a mighty crew. But we are talking about 1vs1 not Red-Hair Pirates vs Hawk-Eye.

I don't think Mihawk has Haki, the most powerful ability in One Piece yet, owned only by the most powerful ones

So Margaret can use haki, but not Mwk? really funny since u r using the words "only powerful ones"

btw haki was never stated as the most powerful ability, in fact I believe every strong dude in the NW can use that. So basically its a requirement if u want to survive, but since it is used by everyone it can't be called the most powerful one. The most powerful ones are only used by a small group of ppl.

Again, we are comparing Mwk with Shanks. The title Yonkou or Shichi are irrelevant if we compare this two big shots. It is sth different if we would compare one of them wth Buggy, Don Krieg or Arlong.. etc And Shanks is not weak, if he would lose a quite evenly battle with the worlds strongest swordsman.

 

[DutchPhoenix]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

theres a reason why mihawk is nr.1 swordsman in the world and why shanks is not.
and they are both swordsman

 

[Franckie]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

On that Franckie: I think you overestimate the Yonkou too much. By that comment, the Yonkou should individually almost have the power to wipe out an admiral, yet they keep fighting desperately against the WG. The reason they are Yonkou is that the WG is yet to take them out, this doesn't mean they are more powerful (take the amount of times Luffy has fled from marines for reference). Whitebeard's has the largest crew/reputation and is most likely quite powerful, but whether he could take down any of the admiral's is questionable.

A balance of power does not automatically mean that all the powers are equal to each other. MHQ wouldn't have any problems dealing with Whitebeard on his own. But Whitebeard and 16 persons as strong as Ace plus another 1600 men who all survived to the New World is another job altogether. Add in three additional pirate crews like what WB has and it's pretty clear-cut that MHQ lacks the power to deal with the pirate threat on their own.

Why do you think the 7BK exist? The answer is that MHQ is not strong enough to defeat these pirates. They need extra help to be able to fight them. That alone rules out the equation MHQ=Yonkou in strength. The reason we don't see more Shichibukai is because they're pirates. They don't follow orders and they still pillage and plunder. They are keeping the 7BK at a lowest number possible. Having 7 extremely strong pirates do what they want is bad, having more of them is worse.

Lastly, the Yonkou don't see themselves as a "world power". They all see themselves as the person who rules the world, the person who's going to become the Pirate King, the person who's going to crush all opposition. They are rivalling fleets, and as any good pirate would, they deal with their rivals by force. On occasion, they might not fight all of the time as evidenced by Shanks sending a messenger to WB, but they're definitely not on good terms. Shanks KOs a lot of WB's guys just because he's considered hostile there and he needs to be prepared. WB refused to hear Shanks' plea and even attacked the guy. And did you ever wonder why WB has spent 20 years being the "closest man to One Piece" and never actually took it? It's because if he tried to claim it, the 3 other fleets would gang up on him and kill him hard.

For reference also: I believe Rayleigh is "Yonkou-level" (if they had a level...), but it's not like he walked in and devastated Kizaru and Kuma. In fact, at best he delayed Kizaru.

Rayleigh and Kizaru are, no doubt, in the highest tier, but strength relations between the admirals, individual yonkou, and shichibukai have absolutely nothing to do with the "balance of power" because the three major powers fight as armies.

 

[paradoxe]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

Sry, but that doesn't make any sense. Yonkou=M HQ=7 Gods!

Yes that is why the WG had to call all 7 Shichibukai to face one Yonkou and his crew.

Ok you win GG

 

[BlackHair]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

MHQ wouldn't have any problems dealing with Whitebeard on his own. But Whitebeard and 16 persons as strong as Ace plus another 1600 men who all survived to the New World is another job altogether. Add in three additional pirate crews like what WB has and it's pretty clear-cut that MHQ lacks the power to deal with the pirate threat on their own.

If its about men power, then the MHQ won't lose. In fact I believe they are having clearly the upper hand. To remind u, the M HQ has every single pirate, outlaw, bandit etc as their enemy not only WB or the other 3. Thus they have to spread their force overall in the world, not only in the NW to fight the Yonko. Do u rly think, WB would have stand a chance, if the marine would send all of their troops after him?

But u r right, the M HQ can't get all alone the great age of piracy under control, that's why the 7 Gods are there for.

Why do you think the 7BK exist? The answer is that MHQ is not strong enough to defeat these pirates. They need extra help to be able to fight them. That alone rules out the equation MHQ=Yonkou in strength. The reason we don't see more Shichibukai is because they're pirates. They don't follow orders and they still pillage and plunder. They are keeping the 7BK at a lowest number possible. Having 7 extremely strong pirates do what they want is bad, having more of them is worse.

I have to disagree with u on that one. To remind u, the Yonko are most of their time in the new world. But these 3 power are influencing the whole world. The Shichi are on the grand line to intimidate other pirates as well, not only to counter balance the Yonko.

But I have to agree with u on this one: Yonko = MHQ = 7Gods; these power must be "about" equally not complete. The Yonko as each own are not working together, same goes to the 7 Gods. They are not friendly to each other and not rly loyal to the WG. Meanwhile the M HQ are facing countless of enemy, its the great age of piracy after al: that's why they appointed the 7 Gods, to help them out.

IF each Yonko should join forces, then they would probably overpower the MHQ. If that would happen then probably the Shichi would leave the MHQ and the world power would crumble. Thats why I'm putting the Yonko like u above the other two power, but only if they would join force. As they are now, they don't stand a chance against the Marine HQ.

Yes that is why the WG had to call all 7 Shichibukai to face one Yonkou and his crew.

Ever played a strategy game? If u know a army is going to attack u (WB pirates) then u assemble every force u have (7Gods+Marine) to crush them highly with low loss on ur side. This way u will certain ur victory, as well as u will have more of ur own troops intact.

I don't get why you are arguing with me on that one, Garp was the guy who explained the three great powers.

btw I believe, the WG are not only expecting WB.

 

[kkck]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

I want to point that "pirate king" was a nickname, not an actual tittle. Roger wasnt actually king of anything. He certainly didnt have a kingdom of pirates and certainly when he met an enemy's crew, they didnt bow to him or swore allegiance. Gold roger was simply acknowledge as the strngest pirate.
I think the same logic applys for the yonkou. They simply acknowledge that those 4 pirates are the strongest in the world. Its like each yonkou is a small PK.

 

[vinsky]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

Ehmmm..... i think sama with kkck. that "pirate king" just a nickname for roger because he make Great Age of Pirates...... and Roger didnt proof anything that he was the "Pirate King" before we know from the rayleigh.... Roger get nickname "Pirate King" because he has explored all island in this world....


If war are explotion... i think not all shicibukai is war with WG Vs WB or Some1 Yonkou....
We can look from Boa Hancook.... that she was netral..... she want war with WB but she hated WG.... so what is she want do ???

 

[bittman]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

Just a note on what blackhair said about strategy: Damn straight! If an attack is coming, (unless you're villain #153566) you send everything you got against it rather than sit back and say "well actually, one admiral will probably be able to win." The World Government doesn't survive on cockiness alone. It's been shown again and again that the World Government would rather go overboard with an attack than hold back (Buster Call examples, Kizaru+Pacifista invasion, CP9+Enies Lobby A pirate crew worth only 160mil).

So calling back 7 Shichibukai is not a credit to Whitebeard's power, but his fame. A credit to his power would be if they simply executed Ace somewhere quietly out of fear he would attack.

 

[Razh]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

I want to point that "pirate king" was a nickname, not an actual tittle. Roger wasnt actually king of anything. He certainly didnt have a kingdom of pirates and certainly when he met an enemy's crew, they didnt bow to him or swore allegiance. Gold roger was simply acknowledge as the strngest pirate.
I think the same logic applys for the yonkou. They simply acknowledge that those 4 pirates are the strongest in the world. Its like each yonkou is a small PK.

It's true about the "Pirate King" title. Roger was basically sailing around and doing whatever he wanted. Probably.

But I doubt it that that's the case with "Emperors". Garp noted that they "reign" New World as emperors. That presumes that people live there and that they are out of WG's reach. In other words, Yonkou are the law in New World. He said something about their power being influential too.

Is it so hard to imagine that each of them have more than one ship and a manpower of thousands. Whitebeard has a crew of over thousand right.
Even that dumbass Krieg had a fleet of 50 ships.

 

[Absolutio]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

But that gave me a crazy idea.

We know that Luffy is stranded on Amazon Lily in the need of a ship to escape.
We know that VA Momonga is there with a ship and refusing to leave empty handed.
We know that Boa Hancock has no ambitions to fight for the WG and believes that her beauty will help her keeping the status of a Shichibukai.

What if the Marines/WG offer Luffy a way out of Amazon Lily and a safe conduct if he in return fights against WB alongside the Shichibukai.
He already defeated two Shichibukai, so he should be considered strong enough by the Marines/WG.
And there should be no moral objections for Luffy to fight against another pirate.

Luffy's goal is to freely experience adventures together with his friends. He has no objections or wishes to fight for or against marines/pirates, but if it helps him to reach his goal...

Besides the fact that Luffy more or less hates the WG and declared war against them, this upcoming war is about his brother. Do you think he will fight the people who are fighting to rescue his brother? That doesn't make any sense at all..

And to all those people who said things about if the Yonkou were so strong bla bla bla they would've taken the Admirals one by one and defeated the WG/Marines, I have two things to say to you:
1. They have no interest in it. The Marines' goal is defeating and capturing pirates. The Pirates goal, in the other hands, is to live freely, sail and adventure in this wonderful world. Because of the Marines' goal, of course they have clashes, but it isn't the Pirates' goal to demolish the marines.
2. If the WG/Marines are so strong with their 3 admirals, why then didn't they defeat the Yonkous yet? The same reason why the Yonkous didn't go and defeat the admirals one by one. They're not alone!
A marine attack, even with an admiral in command, on the WB's 1600 men crew, for example, would be the most foolish thing to do. They will not win.
Same with the opposite way, WB trying to defeat an admiral while he's in the Marines HQ will not be the smartest thing to do either.
Them defeating each other is not so simple.. It's not like you just throw them into an arena and say "fight!"..

Anyways, with this upcoming war. I fail to see WB winning with his current only pirate-crew forces against the combined forces of the Marines HQ and the Shichibukais. Though, it will be one hell of a battle.
WB's crew consists of fighters that can easily be considered equal to Shichibukai standarts (His divisions captains), and there's also WB himself. It will be such a big fight that I assume that we will only see glimpses of it..

 

[kkck]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

It's true about the "Pirate King" title. Roger was basically sailing around and doing whatever he wanted. Probably.

But I doubt it that that's the case with "Emperors". Garp noted that they "reign" New World as emperors. That presumes that people live there and that they are out of WG's reach. In other words, Yonkou are the law in New World. He said something about their power being influential too.

Is it so hard to imagine that each of them have more than one ship and a manpower of thousands. Whitebeard has a crew of over thousand right.
Even that dumbass Krieg had a fleet of 50 ships.

IMO there is a big diference between "ruling as an emperor" and being an actual emperor.

Right now we are seeing how WB incoming attack is making the WG react. They are gathering all their major assets to fight one pirate crew. This means that WB and the other yonkou are to powerfull to be dealt with like any other pirate. Garp noted that taking raileight would require and army; imagine what it would take to take on a yonkou who could be on par or stronger than raileight such as shanks and WB and not to mention their entire crews.

The way I see it the yonkou rule the second half because dealing with them would require an incredible amount of assets, more than what the WG can spare. If just one yonkou can force the WG to call shichibukai and marines to fight, then all four of them could posibly destroy the WG.

Every time the WG loses one of its major assets such as a shichibukai or a high level marine, pirates and yonkou get more freedom to do as they please since world goverment lost a single individual who was worth an army.

The final reason for which I dont see the yonkou being actual emperors is that that would mean they have to make decisions involving economics, politics and things like that. I dont think they would be consider actual emperors if they didnt have people or territory to rule over. I really dont see them doing that. And if they did that then they wouldnt be pirates anymore since pirates are supose to be free to do as they please. Having a territory to rule over would give the yonkou a lot of resposability. If the yonkou actually ruled over something then they would be a goverment instead of pirates.

Those are some of the reasons for which I believe that yonkou is a nickname similar to pirate king rather than an actual tittle or posicion. The yonkou simply live in anarchy and until now no one has been capable of doing anything about it.

 

[TheBlackLotus]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

A balance of power does not automatically mean that all the powers are equal to each other. MHQ wouldn't have any problems dealing with Whitebeard on his own. But Whitebeard and 16 persons as strong as Ace plus another 1600 men who all survived to the New World is another job altogether. Add in three additional pirate crews like what WB has and it's pretty clear-cut that MHQ lacks the power to deal with the pirate threat on their own.

Whitebeard is severely overestimated. Where has it said all 16 division captains are as strong as ace? I highly doubt that. Whether the division title indicates strength, or just means they're the strongest of their division (Similar to captains being the strongest in their division among the Gotei 13 in bleach) has yet to be proven, meaning for all we know the division captains in the higher numbered divisions could be very weak and ace is the 3rd strongest member of the WB crew.

Also just because WB's crew is in the new world doesn't mean all 1600 of his men are strong, i'm sure a good majority of them (at least 1400-1500 of them, AT LEAST) are probably not significantly stronger than the average marine or low ranking marine officer. They're surviving in the new world by being under whitebeard. Given that whitebeard considers all his men his family, and will go through great lengths for them, as well as the fact he's considered the strongest pirate with such a powerful crew, i highly doubt any run of the mill pirates will really go messing with them.

I'm sure the marines with the shichibukai and the admirals combined would be enough power to take on WB's army.

 

[bittman]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

Well on that note: If the WG moved all it's forces in to attack one Yonkou, another would come in after to pick up the scraps. If the WG does it on their terms at their chosen location, they can lure WB far enough away from other Yonkou that they really don't need to concern themselves with a surprise follow-up attack.

And yeah, Yonkou don't have four islands which pay them taxes or anything. I expect the New World is no different to the First half of the Grand line except there are more large-scale conflicts. Besides, if the New World was completely governed by the Yonkou One Piece would be boring compared to the joy of the first half where the Strawhat's weren't just fighting one world power on every island.

 

[vinsky]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

WoW...... i think my Tread was successfull.....

hmm i think bittman say was true.... if marines use full power for againts 1 Yonkou in this case is WB..... maybe another Yonkou will attack WG from another side and Shicibukai will help marine....
If WB can handle all power Marines attack it was awfull...... then another yonkou maybe help him and WG will destroy..... [ in this case Shicibukai not help marine ]
If Shicibukai help marine for againts WB powers, WB can be lost and if WB lost another Yonkou will help him......

so dizzy n confused right ?

 

[BlackHair]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

Garp said, they reign like emperors. I think they are similar to mafias in our world. Each Yonko has probably their own territory and a mighty organisation which they are leading, whereby they are spreading there powers, consequently their influence within their territory.

So taxes from weaker pirates (gold berry) or political decision (which we already saw: WB and Shanks) isn't rly unthinkable.
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I think the WG are not only expecting WB. Though I don't expect any kind of confederacy among the Yonko, I believe there is a unspoken alliance among them, even if they don't like it. WB pirates must be the strongest force among the Yonko. Therefore if they are taken out, the Yonko (which can't hold that name any more) will lose in power.

They are in whole equal to the Shichi and to the MHQ. So basically the Shichi+MHQ could take out the remaining Yonkou one by one. I guess Shanks and the other wouldn't like that, so they will probably join WB in battle, since they must defend their own position. Maybe not all of them but Im expecting Shanks at least.

At this point even the Shichi have to rethink their position, they are former pirates after all. If the Yonko are beaten, the WG wouldn't need the Shichi any more.

Basically Im trying to say that this war will probaly not like 7Gods+MHQ vs WB pirates
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WoW...... i think my Tread was successfull.....

This is indeed a nice thread, I like to discuss about things like this.

 

[vinsky]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

@blackhair
i agree with blackhair.....
Like we know some yonkou have a teritory like Shicibukai like i said b4
"They reign like emperors" maybe yonkou have division like WB and every division have a great captain like Ace
hmmm.... i think i want make a new tread like this.....

THX

 

[mugiwara84]

Re: Shicibukai Vs Yonkou

I think it's highly safe that his 1600 crewmembers are far 1600 forces to be reckoned with. Even on Whitebeard's main ship Shanks had WB's crewmembers dropping left and right with some haki when Kidd's and Law's crew were able to stay awake when Rayleigh was releasing his haki. So all the WG needs is a person that releases some great amount of haki and it seems that the far majority of WB's crew is dozing off.

Whitebeard seems far overrated to me and I don't think he has an actually chance against the WG if all the shichibukai are present. I'm glad to see they're still some rational people like Blackhair cause I agree a hell of a lot with him. I hate how he's overhyped just cause they flashed the title of world strongest man. The only thing I disagreed with was that I don't think all of the Yonkous would retaliate if Whitebeard would be near One Piece nor that that would stop him from really getting it. The real reason I think he didn't make it yet is just cause he isn't able to conquer the sea leading to Raftel like all the yonkous are. The Oro Jackson made bye Tom-san is the only boat that was capable of conquering it and it seems they were no other shipbuilders capable to creat an other ship yet to conquer it besides Franky now obviously.