Movies Star Wars - The Thread

[kkck]

Spoiler

I'm really hoping that the books actually factor in to the plot of episode IX and aren't just used as a plot device to make Rey more powerful over a time-skip. TLJ looked like it was going to heavily explore the Force IMO and the fact that it didn't was one of my biggest disappointments. Just imagine the kind of wisdom in those books... hell, even if they decide to have the books contain bad lessons/content it would still be interesting to see Rey's reactions to them.

Good point on the tree actually, I was wondering why he didn't tell Luke that she took the books.

Spoiler

Yeah his change in character is somewhat strange, though to be fair we did see a hint of his anger in TFA when he shut Hux up. Considering that TLJ is basically just a couple of days after TFA it could just be that Snoke was lambasting his supposedly competent subordinates to vent his built up anger. They did lose him a multi-planet killer, a powerful Force Sensitive and a map to Luke after all.

That being said I agree with you, just playing Devil's Advocate. And lol at the name Snoke, though tbf Sheev isn't that much better.

Just want to touch on something here actually, do you think the First Order is actually threatening? I honestly think they might be the weakest faction in terms of overall presence, since Hux ends up being everybody's whipping boy, Kylo flies into temper tantrums and Supreme Leader "more powerful than Vader and Sidious" Snoke gets bisected by his apprentice, the same apprentice that he claimed to know everything about. IDK, the First Order just seems so incompetent...

Spoiler

Fully agreed, subverting cliches can be incredibly rewarding but at the same time they need to remember that cliches are cliches for a reason. Killing off Leia would have opened up so many possibilities in a natural and organic way, not to mention it would be a fantastic and respectful send off to Carrie Fisher. And since they almost certainly wouldn't kill off Luke and Leia in the same film it would have meant we would get more of Mark Hamill's amazing performance... ah, what could have been.

Spoiler

Quick thing on Kylo, while I hate the scene, I don't think he could have mistaken what Luke was doing as knighting him, the look on Luke's face was harrowing from what we see in his POV, he had the eyes of a killer. That being said I'm with you on not understanding how Luke isn't dead, Kylo seems to be awfully incompetent when the plot needs him to be.

While I wholeheartedly agree that Mark Hamill's performance was phenomenal (TLJ is worth watching just for him), the story just doesn't respect Luke enough IMO. It essentially makes him a coward and a failure, as no matter which way you cut it he ran away from the threat of Kylo and Snoke, let the First Order rise and in turn let the Dark Side rise up again. His retreat can't even be reasoned tactically either, unlike Yoda or Obi-Wan. He wasn't waiting to train a promising student or to return to the fight, he was content to die alone and leave the galaxy in darkness. That is not Luke Skywalker. The core of Luke's character is that he doesn't give in to darkness and sees the light in others, having him run away without a plan and letting his nephew succumb to the Dark Side flies completely against this.

About the thing about legends just being people too... while I get what they were going for, haven't we already seen that with Han? Of all the characters to do this to Luke was the worst candidate IMO, especially in the way they do it. I think its a case of meh concept and bad execution for me, Hamill just did an incredible job which saved the plotline.

Spoiler

LMAO, dude, I actually hadn't thought about how Poe's actions ended up with Luke dying. damn.

Honestly, the whole Poe vs Holdo drama was such BS, there was literally no reason in the world for her to not tell him the plan. Even if the drama had to be there they could have done it in a better way: have Holdo suspect there's a spy on the ship. Tracking through hyperspace is impossible in their eyes (until Finn and Rose tell Poe, and he tells the others later) and Poe has survived through some crazily extraordinary shit. For example, he survived being caught by the First Order and just happens to have been helped by a Stormtrooper, a Stormtrooper that just suddenly defects? If Holdo suspects there's a spy it at least makes sense as to why she won't tell Poe her plans.

Spoiler

Agreed with everything here, though I personally liked Anakin being a child of prophecy. It showed that even destined heroes can lose to a trained and dedicated master.

Spoiler

TCW is actually my favourite piece of Star Wars media. In my original post I wasn't really disagreeing that the PT Jedi were arrogant and somewhat incompetent, just that it was massively oversimplified. While I wouldn't expect them to go massively in depth about it, I just feel that they really undersold how the ROT Sith stacked everything against the PT Jedi. And even then, they almost succeeded. Had Anakin not been in the Chancellor's office its debatable whether Mace would have died.

Despite this I'm also glad the movies pointed out the flaws of the Jedi, adds some more depth. Though if they really wanted to shine some light on their shady stuff they should have made things like the Padawan Massacre on Taris canon.

Spoiler

Completely agreed, Kylo saying "KiLl tHe PaSt" got annoying after a while but its clearly somewhat meta. If Luke doesn't come back as a Force ghost and finish his business (bonus points if he ends up redeeming Kylo as a Force ghost) then I will be pissed.

Dunno, given how the movies have played out proper training arcs probably won't be a thing. I don't expect the books to be specifically important, specially given how yoda played things out here. I guess that anything can go considering the next movie will have a new director whose vision won't necessarily be consistent with TLJ though. Rey will definitely need the books if luke doesn't return as a force ghost to complete her training though.

In the first movie I didn't find the first order to be particularly threatening. From what I understood they were an empire remnant that got greedy and wasn't even that much of a threat overall except for the starkiller base. So they were a threat but.. not a galactic level threat. In TLJ the implication in turn was that the first order was practically done taking over the galaxy so in that regard they were indeed plenty threatening. But the issue here is that the context suddenly changed and for no reason. Sure, the republic lost their five planets but the first order lost the starkiller base... And we are supposed to believe the first order had the resources to take over an entire galaxy after losing the only thing that made them a threat to begin with. Realistically speaking the republic should have been in shambles after losing those five planets but the first order should have been worst off.

I honestly don't expect snoke was more powerful than sidious. That's.... weird considering how he got offed. I just can't imagine sidious having ever fallen for such a cheap trick. At least he got thrown to his death by vader while ending a powerful jedi, snoke was just looney tuned while delivering a standard egomaniac speech after having shown to not be an ego maniac in TFA.

Certainly, that is not luke skywalker as we remember him. But then, him ending up broken and crushed over a huge responsibility is not something I specifically object to. Seeing him return to the light and the scene with yoda was amazing. I thoroughly enjoyed the acknowledgement the jedi got as incompetent and arrogant and how it all culminated with the yoda scene. While it wasn't the luke we knew in the original trilogy, the whole thing works within the movie. This culminates in a wiser luke, that has known and overcome failure, at the height of his power ready to take on the first order and finally complete his mission. And yet he never fights and dies before his mission is complete. The movie screwed us and not even because it makes a speck of sense from a story telling point of view but rather because it wanted to subvert for the sake of subverting. The movie did a great job actually subverting expectations during the movie. Luke throwing away the lightsaber, every decision poe made being wrong and stupid... But in killing off snoke and luke like that it failed to give us something we actually did not want to be subverted on. Imagine us not getting yoda vs sidious in ROTS....

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 24, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 24, 2017 ---

Another thing that bothers me in the movie somewhat is that the implication is that luke started his jedi academy some 20 years after TJR and he made kylo into his disciple when he was in his 20s. I mean, why was there a need to wait so long to any of this? Sure, it makes sense luke wouldn't pick children like the old order did but still... Looking at how TJR played out you'd think he'd pick a padawan almost immediately and if not that as soon as he found a good enough disciple. Heck, he was the sole jedi in the galaxy for 30 years, you'd think he'd pick a disciple at least so that he has someone to share his workload with.

 

[upsurge]

@kkck
You didn't get the impression that the First Order is not that big of a threat? Do you know what Starkiller Base destroyed in Force Awakens? They destroyed the New Republic's capital along with a vast majority of the New Republic Starfleet and military command. And they're most certainly a galactic level threat. They were revealed to have a starfleet ready to walk all over the galaxy. And with most of the New Republic Starfleet gone, they'll see little opposition.

The people who deserve most of the blame for this are the New Republic themselves. Blind idiots.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 25, 2017 ---

Another thing that bothers me in the movie somewhat is that the implication is that luke started his jedi academy some 20 years after TJR and he made kylo into his disciple when he was in his 20s. I mean, why was there a need to wait so long to any of this? Sure, it makes sense luke wouldn't pick children like the old order did but still... Looking at how TJR played out you'd think he'd pick a padawan almost immediately and if not that as soon as he found a good enough disciple. Heck, he was the sole jedi in the galaxy for 30 years, you'd think he'd pick a disciple at least so that he has someone to share his workload with.

The Galactic Empire did everything they could to snuff out the history of the Jedi and their knowledge. Luke spent a good 15 to 20 years looking for Jedi artefacts and learning of other interpretations of the Force.

 

[kkck]

@kkck
You didn't get the impression that the First Order is not that big of a threat? Do you know what Starkiller Base destroyed in Force Awakens? They destroyed the New Republic's capital along with a vast majority of the New Republic Starfleet and military command. And they're most certainly a galactic level threat. They were revealed to have a starfleet ready to walk all over the galaxy. And with most of the New Republic Starfleet gone, they'll see little opposition.

The people who deserve most of the blame for this are the New Republic themselves. Blind idiots.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 25, 2017 ---

The Galactic Empire did everything they could to snuff out the history of the Jedi and their knowledge. Luke spent a good 15 to 20 years looking for Jedi artefacts and learning of other interpretations of the Force.

Yeah but to begin with they were said to be an empire remnant... They weren't presented as a huge threat or anything of the sort. And they pretty much out of nowhere they pull out the starkillerbase. And sure, we saw them having soldiers and ships but it didn't seem like they had enough to actually conquer a galaxy. Such a thing should require an astonishing force. Ultimately in the movie it didn't seem like they had much going for them other than the starkiller base and they lost that alongside presumably substantial resources. And then from that they went to conquering the galaxy anyways by the time of TLJ which wasn't even that much long after that... Sure, seeing TLJ it seems clear they were a galactic class threat but unless I missed something the TFA didn't give us the context to think they had the resources for that during TFA without the starkiller base.

So... why does doing that prevent him from starting his new jedi order? The more the merrier. Grab an 18 year old, train him, and within a few years you have at least a competent padawan to help him out. By the time TJR ended luke already had all the knowledge he needed to train jedi. Trinkets and lost knowledge help but they weren't instrumental. I mean, did you see obi wan or yoda go out of their way to get knickknacks to train luke? Come on, that's asinine. All luke needed to do was pick a dozen or so talented force sensitives and within 5-10 years he would have had a dozen or so jedi knights with padawans under him. Even more if the movies didn't go out of their way to ignore any potential purge survivors.... Overall, if things bothered to make sense you'd think that 30 years after TJR luke would have had something like 40 jedi at his call at least. But finding knickknacks was apparently more important. Heck, the worst part is that the movie itself actually goes out of its way to show how unimportant those things are. When luke tried to destroy them, when yoda destroys the tree... No relic or bit of history was instrumental to reviving the order, the notion that that was the case is asinine.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Spoiler

Just two people could manipulate the Galactic Republic and CIS into warring with each other, fucking up each other's economies, collapsing, then allowing for the rise of a new order.

The only reason I rank the New Republic below them is because of how fucking blind they were to the manipulations of the imperial sympathizers and for becoming too fucking complacent. And they absolutely fucking refused to learn from the mistakes of the old republic. They just flat out refused to learn.

Spoiler

To be fair to the Galactic Republic it did take around 1000 years of manipulation to get it into the state of which we see it in the PT, that said I still agree that it was obviously flawed and somewhat incompetent since someone like Sidious rose to power in the first place. The CIS was pretty much always going to be incompetent as its a puppet state made to be manipulated, so I have no argument with you here.

Just had a brief skim through the New Republic's wookiepedia page... Cutting down their military forces despite having no idea what the remaining pro-Empire factions were doing in Unknown Space... Damn, really?

Dunno, given how the movies have played out proper training arcs probably won't be a thing. I don't expect the books to be specifically important, specially given how yoda played things out here. I guess that anything can go considering the next movie will have a new director whose vision won't necessarily be consistent with TLJ though. Rey will definitely need the books if luke doesn't return as a force ghost to complete her training though.

Yeah, I'm probably being optimistic about there being some form of training arc. I just find it really weird that in the OT Luke trained with Yoda for months, in the PT Anakin was trained for a decade + Clone Wars and yet in the ST Rey has only had, what, 3 days training? I just don't get how both of the Skywalkers are getting shown up by Rey, someone who supposedly has no special lineage.

I honestly don't expect snoke was more powerful than sidious. That's.... weird considering how he got offed. I just can't imagine sidious having ever fallen for such a cheap trick. At least he got thrown to his death by vader while ending a powerful jedi, snoke was just looney tuned while delivering a standard egomaniac speech after having shown to not be an ego maniac in TFA.

To be fair he was only hyped as > Sidious by Andy Serkis so I highly doubt he is.

That being said, I think killing Snoke has really screwed over the First Order's role as antagonists as now its being led by an emotionally compromised Force Sensitive prone to bouts of rage and a general that is used mainly for comic relief. There's pretty much no one to actually be scared of, especially seeing as Rey is nearing Kylo's level despite having only trained for roughly 3 days.

Certainly, that is not luke skywalker as we remember him. But then, him ending up broken and crushed over a huge responsibility is not something I specifically object to.

I think its the execution that bothered me, it just seemed ridiculously out of character for Luke Skywalker to even contemplate killing his own flesh and blood because he saw darkness in him. Had we actually seen some of Kylo's training with Luke in the film it would have been easier to believe, perhaps having a couple of scenes showing something similar to Kylo having AOTC Anakin's philosophy on democracy vs totalitarianism or a scene of him being particularly brutal in lightsaber sparring. Having Luke try to kill his nephew because he might turn is just bizarre when he was willing to throw away his life trying to redeem a child massacring Sith Lord.

The other thing I don't get is why he didn't try and track down Snoke. The original 3 all seemingly knew about Snoke, with both Luke and Leia saying that Snoke seduced Kylo to the Dark Side IIRC. Doesn't this imply they knew about Snoke prior to Kylo's fall? If so, surely Luke would try and confront him?

Seeing him return to the light and the scene with yoda was amazing. I thoroughly enjoyed the acknowledgement the jedi got as incompetent and arrogant and how it all culminated with the yoda scene. While it wasn't the luke we knew in the original trilogy, the whole thing works within the movie. This culminates in a wiser luke, that has known and overcome failure, at the height of his power ready to take on the first order and finally complete his mission.

While I agree Luke returning to the Light was great, and that his scene with Yoda was fantastic too, I'm not sure if the pay-off was worth the damage dealt to Luke's character.

Also, I'm not sure how wise Luke was in regards to the Yoda scene. He was going to destroy the Jedi texts because he thought the Jedi religion needed to end, but when you look at his motivation I think it becomes... Very murky.

His motivation is that the Jedi became arrogant and prideful, and that resulted in them being manipulated by the Rule of Two Sith, creating Darth Vader and failing to prevent the rise of Sidious. There's three problems with this though, the first being that the Rule of Two Sith aren't around to mess with any future Jedi Order. Without the Rule of Two Sith around it essentially means they aren't being hampered by a group that literally exists to destroy/hinder them. Sure, you could point to Snoke as an example of a non-Sith that ultimately hindered and destroyed Luke's new Jedi Order, but that was mainly caused by Luke himself. Had he been more calm about the situation he likely wouldn't have caused Kylo to turn, meaning that his Order wouldn't have been destroyed. Also, it took the Rule of Two Sith 1000 years to pull off their master plan and even then it didn't ultimately succeed. The second problem with this is that the creation of Darth Vader and the rise of Sidious were ridiculously circumstantial. In regards to Vader it took:

- The Jedi Council allowing an older child to receive Jedi training
- Losing his only parental figure within the Jedi Order before getting training and having deep attachment issues throughout
- Being groomed by the most manipulative Sith Lord in galactic history for a decade+
- Reuniting with Padme, a woman he already had 'unhealthy' feelings for
- Just happening to manage to reunite with his mother only to watch her die
- Entering a secret relationship
- Getting forced into a war in which he was prodded further into the Dark Side by Dooku and (more sneakily) Palpatine
- Receiving a Padawan, giving Palpatine yet another connection to abuse
- Having his Padawan expelled from the Order, weakening his faith in the Council
- Being prodded into executing Dooku, this being massively unlikely because of Obi-Wan's presence, who was unfortunately unconscious at the time
- Having the stress of his secret relationship with Padme increase due to her revealing her pregnancy
- Being treated badly by Mace and Palpatine abusing this

All in all, that is some really specific criteria. And even with all of this Anakin almost stayed in the Light, it seemed like he would have sided with Mace had he not been about to kill Sidious. As for Sidious, I think the fact that it took the Rule of Two Sith 1000 years to pull of their plan speaks for itself, and even then it almost failed due to Mace and the B-Team.

The third and final problem is that Luke could have simply make reforms to the Jedi doctrine . The Jedi (at least in the old canon) had several moments in galactic history where they made reformations, the most famous being the Ruusan Reformations. With Luke being the only Jedi left and setting up and new order, he could have simply altered the rules according to his wisdom. His experience with Snoke turning Kylo seems to have convinced him that the Jedi are ultimately always doomed to fail and that their failures always have horrific consequences on the galaxy, but as Rey points out to him it was a Jedi that redeemed Darth Vader, and the Jedi Anakin Skywalker that killed the Emperor and ended the Sith completely. Even as he was on Acht-To, he could still have gone with Rey and restarted a new Jedi Order, taking the texts and using them one way or another; either as guidelines or as evidence of what not to do (somewhat similar as to what Grand Master Luke did with the Jedi Path in the old canon).

I'm not trying to deny that the PT Jedi were arrogant, vain and dogmatic, they were to an awful extent, but at the same time I don't see why Luke thinks that just because he failed once it should mean the whole Jedi Order should cease to exist. Tbh I think this was another majorly out of character view for Luke.

Sorry if this was really rambly or hard to understand, can't think of another way to phrase this.

And yet he never fights and dies before his mission is complete. The movie screwed us and not even because it makes a speck of sense from a story telling point of view but rather because it wanted to subvert for the sake of subverting. The movie did a great job actually subverting expectations during the movie. Luke throwing away the lightsaber, every decision poe made being wrong and stupid... But in killing off snoke and luke like that it failed to give us something we actually did not want to be subverted on.

Fully agreed here, though I'm curious, what did you think about Luke throwing his lightsaber away? I'm still mixed on it tbh.

Imagine us not getting yoda vs sidious in ROTS...

I would straight up murder the person responsible for removing it, that fight was incredible IMO, easily in my top 2 favourite fights.

You didn't get the impression that the First Order is not that big of a threat? Do you know what Starkiller Base destroyed in Force Awakens? They destroyed the New Republic's capital along with a vast majority of the New Republic Starfleet and military command. And they're most certainly a galactic level threat. They were revealed to have a starfleet ready to walk all over the galaxy. And with most of the New Republic Starfleet gone, they'll see little opposition.

The people who deserve most of the blame for this are the New Republic themselves. Blind idiots.

Yeah but to begin with they were said to be an empire remnant... They weren't presented as a huge threat or anything of the sort. And they pretty much out of nowhere they pull out the starkillerbase. And sure, we saw them having soldiers and ships but it didn't seem like they had enough to actually conquer a galaxy. Such a thing should require an astonishing force. Ultimately in the movie it didn't seem like they had much going for them other than the starkiller base and they lost that alongside presumably substantial resources. And then from that they went to conquering the galaxy anyways by the time of TLJ which wasn't even that much long after that... Sure, seeing TLJ it seems clear they were a galactic class threat but unless I missed something the TFA didn't give us the context to think they had the resources for that during TFA without the starkiller base.

Honestly, I don't even understand how the First Order have the level of military might they have. They were made out to be somewhat of a small scale Galactic Empire, but as of TFA/TLJ they had:

- Starkiller Base
- The largest capital ship to ever be built, the Mega-class
- A fleet-killing, base decimating Dreadnaught
- A load of Resurgent-class destroyers

I know TLJ said that there are weapons dealers on both sides but there's no way any of their larger stuff is from weapons dealers.

 

[upsurge]

Honestly, I don't even understand how the First Order have the level of military might they have. They were made out to be somewhat of a small scale Galactic Empire, but as of TFA/TLJ they had:

- Starkiller Base
- The largest capital ship to ever be built, the Mega-class
- A fleet-killing, base decimating Dreadnaught
- A load of Resurgent-class destroyers

I know TLJ said that there are weapons dealers on both sides but there's no way any of their larger stuff is from weapons dealers.

I'm sure it will be explained further in Disney EU works. Currently, we know that they harvested raw material from the Unknown Regions and the Resurgent-class battlecruisers they had were manufactured by the Supremacy itself thanks to the Last Jedi Incredible Cross Sections book.

 

[kkck]

Gotta say though, I am surprised at how much people dislike CGI yoda. I didn't like that the prequel trilogies made yoda look... like an entirely different person so to speak but that is a different thing from specifically caring about yoda being a puppet. Honestly, to me yoda fighting in AOTC and ROTS are the movies' highpoints. I would have felt cheated if we hadn't seen a sidious-yoda confrontation in ROTS. Just as I feel cheated that we never saw snoke fighting or luke actually fighting, let alone go all out.

 

[Lawl Po Bia]

are we going to see darth revan next movie?

 

[XXGenesis]

Last Jedi ^*^^*^ up a lot.. It dropped too many plot point previously edtablished in Force Awakens, they assassinate Luke Skywalkers character, Snoke as s big bad is axe'd yet never dived into. I'm starting to understand the Superman stuff, that was Juss s stretch but ok, let's be reasonable...It's mostly the execution for me...It's ok te Reyvisnt special but don't reveal it the way they did, they pul have made it more emotional...Luke coul have died but make him do more...I hate to say it, because I don't scrutinize Star Wars flicks, I personally like the prequels even though they have many problems with them..Last Jedi is too disrespectful to old fans & the Cor material of Star Wars.

 

[Ebony Maw]

I'm sure it will be explained further in Disney EU works. Currently, we know that they harvested raw material from the Unknown Regions and the Resurgent-class battlecruisers they had were manufactured by the Supremacy itself thanks to the Last Jedi Incredible Cross Sections book.

Thinking about it, this would actually be a good way to reintroduce the Star Forge. I didn't play KOTOR but the Star Forge is in the Unknown Regions and runs off raw Dark Side energy (and a star). Given the hint that Palpatine sensed some immense Dark Side presence in the Unknown Regions during the Galactic Civil War it could be that Snoke began building his starships then in preparations for the fall of the Empire. Though if Snoke had been preparing for that long it would be kinda weird that he only has one Mega-class Star Destroyers and no Super Star Destroyers.

Plus, if they re-canonize the Star Forge it could lead to a lot of the KOTOR era being reintroduced (and we already know that Revan has almost been canon twice now IIRC).

 

[kkck]

After reading a bit... I think the issues with the last jedi come from the fact that the movies weren't written years ago. One of the interviews I read from the director made the point that the movie's director got freedom to do whatever he wants with the movie. And he wasn't necessarily going to direct the next movie. And so he had the liberty to kill snoke, luke and subvert everything he wanted. That was very good for the movie, I maintain it was a good movie, but in turn it means he didn't have to give a single fraction of a shit about the next movie. And if he got it, well, I guess he thought's he'd figure it out then. Since he dealt with very single plot point from the first movie he can continue to do whatever he wants. In any case, the situation here seems to be that there wasn't a specific story disney wanted to tell over 3 movies. The first movie introduced rey but it was basically a retelling of the original trilogy. The second one dealt with most of the plot points set in TFA. And now the only thing left is kylo ren but other than that there is no context or or setting to follow. It barely seems like they are trying to tell a grander story TBH. Realistically speaking TLJ doesn't even need a sequel.

Gotta say though, these movies are going out of their way to not show me stuff I want. And the stuff I have gotten instead is simply not better than what I wanted.

In TFA I wanted something very simple: Seeing luke as grandmaster of his fledgling jedi order which has somewhere around 12-40 jedi and padawans. If he picks relatively older people, teenagers or even young adults who want to join, it should take him about 10 years to train each jedi. Meaning having the amounts of people behind him I am suggesting should be more than doable if he has several students at a time. Instead of that we got.... no jedi whatsoever and the only lightsaber fights we got were between an underwhelming and half dead kylo ren and rey who had never held a lightsaber before. In the prequels and additional media one overarching theme was that the jedi were incompetent and arrogant. Imagine seeing luke figuring out his own new jedi order....

In TLJ my expectation was lower. All I wanted was a proper luke fight. Or AT LEAST a proper fight being set for the next movie. The implication according to lucas was that Luke was supposed to be what vader would have been had he not turned evil and his potential had been realized. Basically a force user with the potential to vastly exceed the emperor, arguably the strongest force user during the previous 6 movies. So there is a lot of hype around the idea of luke going all out. And yet what we got was basically "HAAAAAAA FUCK YOU KYLO IT'S ALL A DREAM" and then luke dies.

Now, I don't mind movies being subversive but the stuff we got instead of what I wanted is simply not better. Not getting luke's jedi order is simply not better than getting it. Not getting a proper luke luke fight is simply not better than getting one.

At this point the only thing to look forward to in the next star wars movie is the alliance being rebuilt and rey-kylo duking it out once their skills have been properly honed. However the way things are going we won't get even that. And what we get instead won't be better than what we wanted...

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2018 ---

Thinking about it, this would actually be a good way to reintroduce the Star Forge. I didn't play KOTOR but the Star Forge is in the Unknown Regions and runs off raw Dark Side energy (and a star). Given the hint that Palpatine sensed some immense Dark Side presence in the Unknown Regions during the Galactic Civil War it could be that Snoke began building his starships then in preparations for the fall of the Empire. Though if Snoke had been preparing for that long it would be kinda weird that he only has one Mega-class Star Destroyers and no Super Star Destroyers.

Plus, if they re-canonize the Star Forge it could lead to a lot of the KOTOR era being reintroduced (and we already know that Revan has almost been canon twice now IIRC).

IIRC the first order is basically made up of empire remnants. With that in mind it sounds weird that snoke would have built his force in anticipation of the empire falling. It seems more like once the empire fell and retreated he went ahead and took over. And built from there.

 

[upsurge]

Who else is hyped for the comic adaptation of the Thrawn novel and Thrawn: Alliances? I know I am. The Thrawn novel was probably the best Star War work this year for me (even more than Last Jedi, which I did love). We can count on Zahn to always deliver a solid story.

Luceno as well. Man I want a Dooku or Sidious or Plagueis novel by Luceno so badly.

Thinking about it, this would actually be a good way to reintroduce the Star Forge. I didn't play KOTOR but the Star Forge is in the Unknown Regions and runs off raw Dark Side energy (and a star). Given the hint that Palpatine sensed some immense Dark Side presence in the Unknown Regions during the Galactic Civil War it could be that Snoke began building his starships then in preparations for the fall of the Empire. Though if Snoke had been preparing for that long it would be kinda weird that he only has one Mega-class Star Destroyers and no Super Star Destroyers.

Plus, if they re-canonize the Star Forge it could lead to a lot of the KOTOR era being reintroduced (and we already know that Revan has almost been canon twice now IIRC).

I don't think the Star Forge will be making it into Canon any time soon. I have the Last Jedi ICS Book. It clearly states that the First Order Navy's vessels were built by the Supremacy. She just flies into asteroid belts, takes them into her nose, which has asteroid mining facilities and raw material processing plants, then churns out weapons, droids, even Resurgent-class battlecruisers. Supremacy supposedly has manufacturing capabilities rivalling that of entire planets. She's already a sort of Canon Star Forge.

IIRC the first order is basically made up of empire remnants. With that in mind it sounds weird that snoke would have built his force in anticipation of the empire falling. It seems more like once the empire fell and retreated he went ahead and took over. And built from there.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened most likely.

 

[XXGenesis]

Kylo "Let it Burn" "Let it all burn"...That's what TLJ did, burnt down the past...

The thing is I'm no longer interested in anymore sequels, or the continuation of the franchise...& I'm only 26 so I'm not the SW Fanboy ppl fear, but I like it a lot & respect its cult following.Ep1-6 is all we need. Because wow did they screw Over the Reknoned Luke Skywalker..

 

[kkck]

So I was going through the wikia and found something weird regarding the emperor. Going by what is currently cannon, it seems like the emperor had set up a contingency in case he were to die. Basically he set the empire in self destruct mode in the event of his death. But is this consistent with the emperor we had seen in the movies? The prequel trilogy showed how palpatine created his sith empire and in the original movies we saw it at its height. But sidious seemed committed to building a sith empire. Which is why he put so much work into making anakin into his apprentice. So why set up a countermeasure that would have basically guaranteed a sith empire 1000 years in the making would fall immediately after his demise? In legends we see palpatine abandoning the rule of two in favor of the rule of one but that was also motivated by him having a plan to make himself immortal. Does it make a shred of sense that palpatine would basically work to end the sith altogether if he died?

 

[upsurge]

So I was going through the wikia and found something weird regarding the emperor. Going by what is currently cannon, it seems like the emperor had set up a contingency in case he were to die. Basically he set the empire in self destruct mode in the event of his death. But is this consistent with the emperor we had seen in the movies? The prequel trilogy showed how palpatine created his sith empire and in the original movies we saw it at its height. But sidious seemed committed to building a sith empire. Which is why he put so much work into making anakin into his apprentice. So why set up a countermeasure that would have basically guaranteed a sith empire 1000 years in the making would fall immediately after his demise? In legends we see palpatine abandoning the rule of two in favor of the rule of one but that was also motivated by him having a plan to make himself immortal. Does it make a shred of sense that palpatine would basically work to end the sith altogether if he died?

In the Tarkin novel, it is explained that Palpatine did continue the work of Plagueis and was indeed looking to attain immortality. If he succeeded, then good; he'd rule his twisted little empire for eternity. If he failed, then Scorched Earth Policy...

 

[kkck]

In the Tarkin novel, it is explained that Palpatine did continue the work of Plagueis and was indeed looking to attain immortality. If he succeeded, then good; he'd rule his twisted little empire for eternity. If he failed, then Scorched Earth Policy...

That still seems like a deviation from the prequel trilogy palpatine that was very much in favor of getting an apprentice that would surpass him or yoda. I guess the immortality bit makes sense at least. However if his plan was to become immortal then picking an apprentice that could vastly surpass him seems like an error in judgement.

 

[upsurge]

That still seems like a deviation from the prequel trilogy palpatine that was very much in favor of getting an apprentice that would surpass him or yoda. I guess the immortality bit makes sense at least.

Huh? We saw in ROTJ itself that he was looking to gain an apprentice who could far surpass cyber Vader. And the canon Vader comics show that Palpatine was looking for potential replacements for Vader just like in Legends.

However if his plan was to become immortal then picking an apprentice that could vastly surpass him seems like an error in judgement.

How would it be an error in judgement? Even if said more powerful apprentice murdered him, he'd still take Palpatine's place as a Dark Side avatar and the Sith would continue. If he failed to do so, then immortal Palpatine, the most powerful Sith Lord in history, would just go looking for another. Either way, the Sith win. It all fits with the Sith mentality.

 

[kkck]

Huh? We saw in ROTJ itself that he was looking to gain an apprentice who could far surpass cyber Vader. And the canon Vader comics show that Palpatine was looking for potential replacements for Vader just like in Legends.


How would it be an error in judgement? Even if said more powerful apprentice murdered him, he'd still take Palpatine's place as a Dark Side avatar and the Sith would continue. If he failed to do so, then immortal Palpatine, the most powerful Sith Lord in history, would just go looking for another. Either way, the Sith win. It all fits with the Sith mentality.

But the whole point of the immortality thing and the contingency was that palpatine wouldn't pass on his empire regardless of circumstances. Palpatine's endgame was ultimately that he would remain in power for eternity. In that sense an apprentice like darth maul makes sense. An enforcer to be manipulated and used until his use expired rather than a true lord of the sith. Or perhaps even like tyranus, a true lord of the sith that didn't have the potential to overtake sidious. However if the endgame is to permanently keep his throne then having a disciple with the potential to surpass him just doesn't seem logical because he simply doesn't seem to care about or want a disciple that could overtake him.

 

[MatewBro]

When the salt settles, we are left with neither triumph nor tragedy; instead, it's one more chapter in the continuing saga, punctuated by a few moments of genuine awe.

 

[Jammin]

So what does everybody think of the Star Wars novels? Are there some good currently canon ones out there?

I'm curious because I really would like to read some. But my attempts to get into them in the past haven't gone great. Like I read the recent Thrawn book. It was fine, I guess. Though I was hoping for space adventures and that really wasn't what that book was.

 

[Arjuna]

So what does everybody think of the Star Wars novels? Are there some good currently canon ones out there?

I'm curious because I really would like to read some. But my attempts to get into them in the past haven't gone great. Like I read the recent Thrawn book. It was fine, I guess. Though I was hoping for space adventures and that really wasn't what that book was.

@upsurge help him in the name of Androissi.