Movies Star Wars - The Thread

[upsurge]

So what does everybody think of the Star Wars novels? Are there some good currently canon ones out there?

I'm curious because I really would like to read some. But my attempts to get into them in the past haven't gone great. Like I read the recent Thrawn book. It was fine, I guess. Though I was hoping for space adventures and that really wasn't what that book was.

The new canon does have some great novels.

Thrawn is hands down one of the best canon novels. But you'd have to have watched the Clone Wars animated series and watched Rebels before getting into that.

James Luceno does great jobs with Tarkin and Catalyst. Though people who want a faster paced plot will find themselves wanting more with those two.

With the Aftermath trilogy, the first and third books are okay. The second one - Aftermath: Life Debt - is great. Has some nice character fleshing out for Han Solo (which is saying something as I am not a fan of this character) and overall is a fun read. Many people have criticized the author's writing style. You just have to get used to it. People are just overreacting.

If you watched The Clone Wars animated series, then the novels Ahsoka and Dark Disciple might be for you. I warn you though. The latter does have some pacing issues.

The Battlefront games might suck ass but the novels Battlefront: Twilight Company and Battlefront: Inferno Squad are genuinely good. They have some interesting characters and I think the former in particular is underrated.

The Force Awakens and Rogue One novelizations are better than the films and have a lot of content that was either cut from the films or not included at all. And they do a far better job of explaining shit and getting into characters' heads.

Heir to the Jedi is just... Okay, I guess. I got used to the writing style quickly but you may not.

Lords of the Sith is good. Has some plot holes and mistakes here and there but it is genuinely good. We get some Vader plus Palpatine action and a look at Cham Syndulla's Free Ryloth Movement. The novel does a great job shifting between four protagonists (Vader, Belkor Drey, Delian Mors, Isval).

The Phasma novel is genuinely good. And it does a great job fleshing out Phasma as a character.

Rebel Rising does a great job of giving us a look into the life of Jyn Erso as a teen under the care of Saw Gerrera. It's a damn good read.

All three of Claudia Gray's canon novels so far have been fantastic. Lost Stars is probably the best of them. It follows the lives of Thane Kyrell and Ciena Ree, who are lovers on opposite sides in the civil war of the Original Trilogy. Don't take my word for it. Ask around. This book is really good. Bloodlines gives us a look at the political climate in the galaxy just before The Force Awakens, we get to see the rise of the Resistance, the emerging doubts in Ben Solo's mind after a secret of his ancestry is revealed. Leia: Princess of Alderaan is a book I have not read yet. But I have heard nothing but good things about it. After reading Lost Stars and Bloodlines, I have no doubt that Leia will be good.

Fun Facts:
Lost Stars and Lords of the Sith both have manga (yes, manga) adaptations you can check out.
The comic adaptation of the Thrawn novel is coming out in a few weeks.

---

The Disney canon has done a great job with the Junior novelizations. They are all genuinely good. The following are the best:
Moving Target: A Princess Leia Adventure
Smuggler's Run: A Han Solo and Chewbacca Adventure
Weapon of a Jedi: A Luke Skywalker Adventure
Before the Awakening
Guardians of the Whills
The Force Awakens Junior Novelization

 

[Jammin]

Thanks for the list upsurge. I'll put some of those on my reading list. I'm pretty tolerant of writing quirks as I read self published books and webnovels all the time.

I'm definitely looking for something a bit faster paced than Thrawn was. That one wasn't for me. I get what it was doing. But I wanted space adventure and that book doesn't really offer that.

What I'm hoping to find is the written equivalent of the video game KOTOR. Or the Jedi Knight series back in the day. It doesn't have to be Jedi but I'm looking for adventure. Which is why I have trouble jumping on board with all the more high concept "Empire" perspective books or the Rogue One style "Rebel" books. That's just not what I look to Star Wars for.

 

[M3J]

So what does everybody think of the Star Wars novels? Are there some good currently canon ones out there?

I'm curious because I really would like to read some. But my attempts to get into them in the past haven't gone great. Like I read the recent Thrawn book. It was fine, I guess. Though I was hoping for space adventures and that really wasn't what that book was.

A lot of the books are good, but some of the major annoyances are how they keep using phrases from the movies, like "He's no use to me dead."

What do you mean by space adventures? Most of the books are about that. I'd personally go with Thrawn trilogy and Hand of Thrawn trilogy though, Thrawn was a great character, and the trilogy was a great series. You can also read the Yuuzhan Vong series if you have the time, which is something I feel they should make a TV series out of, if not a movie series, although it'd probably take at least five to ten years to do so.

 

[Jammin]

A lot of the books are good, but some of the major annoyances are how they keep using phrases from the movies, like "He's no use to me dead."

What do you mean by space adventures? Most of the books are about that. I'd personally go with Thrawn trilogy and Hand of Thrawn trilogy though, Thrawn was a great character, and the trilogy was a great series. You can also read the Yuuzhan Vong series if you have the time, which is something I feel they should make a TV series out of, if not a movie series, although it'd probably take at least five to ten years to do so.

Well I'm specifically looking for canon versions of that kind of thing as a way to invest in the current Star Wars universe a little more. Pretty sure all of that stuff has been de-canon'd by Disney.

As for Thrawn, that's not an adventure book IMO. At least the new one isn't. Adventure books tend to feature action, danger, exploration, and tend to be lighter in tone. They are books meant to illicit the filling of being "adventurous". That's not Thawn. It's way to dry for that. Thriller maybe? Either way, definitely not what I'm trying to find.

 

[M3J]

Well I'm specifically looking for canon versions of that kind of thing as a way to invest in the current Star Wars universe a little more. Pretty sure all of that stuff has been de-canon'd by Disney.

As for Thrawn, that's not an adventure book IMO. At least the new one isn't. Adventure books tend to feature action, danger, exploration, and tend to be lighter in tone. They are books meant to illicit the filling of being "adventurous". That's not Thawn. It's way to dry for that. Thriller maybe? Either way, definitely not what I'm trying to find.

Ah. Then I wouldn't know as I haven't kept up with any novel info after the last book in Fate of the Jedi series.

that'd be the original THrawn trilogy, but is there any Star Wars book that's adventure? Seems like you'd have better luck looking for Star Wars comics instead.

 

[gnut]

 

[kkck]

Anyone here watches star wars rebels? I have noticed something that is a bit of a trend in recent star wars material. Well, specifically in disney star wars material.

Going by the original and sequel trilogy along with stuff lucas himself said the force being in balance did not mean something like dark and light being equal. Lucas specifically says at some point (though I can't remember when I read that) that the force being in balance means the light overpowering the dark.

Spoiler: star wars rebels spoilers

Enter rebels and the new trilogy. You have snoke (In the novel) making the point that he wanted kylo because he had a right balance of light and dark in him. You have luke explaining the force as... kinda neutral in regards to light and dark, two sides of the same coin. And then you have the force "neutral" characters in rebels. Ahsoka, bendu, the loth wolves.... And now there is an actual possibility of characters dying and rather than becoming force ghosts they become beings like bendu or the loth wolf.

So... there has been a significant shift in how lucas portrayed the force and how disney does. As far as lucas was concerned it seemed like his intention was that however flawed the jedi organization was (and it clearly was) their approach to the force was actually the correct one. And in becoming one with the force the jedi triumphed over the sith forever in a way. But now it seems like there are alternate paths force users can take with neutrality. In the expanded universe there were grey jedi but becoming one with the force shouldn't be an option for them. Now, in lucas' time the others were introduced and had the father as force neutral though I am not quite sure of how all of that fits here. In any case, with alternate paths for force users being a thing along with post death presence the series seems to have taken a significant shift in regards to its approach to the force. I just hope they never introduce a dark side alternative to force ghosts at least.

 

[upsurge]

@kkck
As I have said before, Lucas continues to consult with Lucasfilm when it comes to Jedi/Sith lore. A lot of the Force related concepts in the current Canon come from Lucas's notes in fact. And Dave Filoni and Pablo Hidalgo say they will always honour Lucas's wish to never introduce Dark Side Force spirits. It goes against all the lore Lucas established about the Force.

 

[kkck]

@kkck
As I have said before, Lucas continues to consult with Lucasfilm when it comes to Jedi/Sith lore. A lot of the Force related concepts in the current Canon come from Lucas's notes in fact. And Dave Filoni and Pablo Hidalgo say they will always honour Lucas's wish to never introduce Dark Side Force spirits. It goes against all the lore Lucas established about the Force.

Ah, that makes sense. I still find how "neutrality" in the force is portrayed rather weird. It seems like a viable path for a force user and sometimes even a superior path. Now that I think about it looking back the father actually became one with the force even though he represented the middle rather than light. Even though becoming a force ghost should be a thing for light side users only.

 

[upsurge]

Ah, that makes sense. I still find how "neutrality" in the force is portrayed rather weird. It seems like a viable path for a force user and sometimes even a superior path. Now that I think about it looking back the father actually became one with the force even though he represented the middle rather than light. Even though becoming a force ghost should be a thing for light side users only.

It has never been stated that Light Side users only can become Force spirits. Just that Dark Side users can't.

 

[kkck]

It has never been stated that Light Side users only can become Force spirits. Just that Dark Side users can't.

IIRC something to that effect was said in clone wars and lucas also said that at some point. Then again the father did become one with the force apparently so perhaps at least some neutrals have access to this.

 

[upsurge]

IIRC something to that effect was said in clone wars and lucas also said that at some point. Then again the father did become one with the force apparently so perhaps at least some neutrals have access to this.

The Father is THE neutral. Like how the Daughter and Son are literal embodiments of the Light and Dark, he is the literal embodiment of balance.

Also, according to Lucas, it doesn't require just plain Light side strength to become a Force spirit. According to Lucas and according to Qui-Gon Jinn, it requires total selflessness and a desire to take action for the greater good. That is why I think Dark siders can't become Force spirits. They're all selfish assholes.

 

[kkck]

The Father is THE neutral. Like how the Daughter and Son are literal embodiments of the Light and Dark, he is the literal embodiment of balance.

Also, according to Lucas, it doesn't require just plain Light side strength to become a Force spirit. According to Lucas and according to Qui-Gon Jinn, it requires total selflessness and a desire to take action for the greater good. That is why I think Dark siders can't become Force spirits. They're all selfish assholes.

I haven't said that light is the only requirement to become a force spirit but it has been said to be a requirement. That is why light side users train for it. I know what the mortis guys are but what does the father being THE neutral mean here? What does this explain?

 

[xi0]

Ah, that makes sense. I still find how "neutrality" in the force is portrayed rather weird.

I think it's really only portrayed weirdly in the movies... well, more like they never bother with it in the movies at all. Which is a huge letdown for me generally. That's what I was hoping they were going for with the new trilogy after the first film and what was hinted at prior to TFA's release, but no...

 

[M3J]

The Father is THE neutral. Like how the Daughter and Son are literal embodiments of the Light and Dark, he is the literal embodiment of balance.

Also, according to Lucas, it doesn't require just plain Light side strength to become a Force spirit. According to Lucas and according to Qui-Gon Jinn, it requires total selflessness and a desire to take action for the greater good. That is why I think Dark siders can't become Force spirits. They're all selfish assholes.

Not necessarily selfish assholes. A lot of Dark siders can be selfless, committing horrible deeds for others' sake. Jacen (though not canon anymore) became a Sith for his daughter. What was Maul's ambition and reason anyway?

I thought Lucas made it clear that balance to the Force meant no dark side of the Force being used, otherwise why have Vader and Palpatine killed?

 

[kkck]

Not necessarily selfish assholes. A lot of Dark siders can be selfless, committing horrible deeds for others' sake. Jacen (though not canon anymore) became a Sith for his daughter. What was Maul's ambition and reason anyway?

I thought Lucas made it clear that balance to the Force meant no dark side of the Force being used, otherwise why have Vader and Palpatine killed?

In anakin's case he supposedly did what he did to save padme but ultimately that drove him to become power hungry and full of hatred. I don't really know about jacen but I would venture the guess there is some similar context there with him becoming increasingly power hungry and cruel.

I don't think there being no dark side users is necessary for the force to be in balance. If you look at the movies and tv shows the sith are far from the only dark side users. In the TV show you have the nightsisters and snoke, a very powerful dark side user, was presumably alive during most movies. The movies cover a 70 year period more or less and snoke seems easily older than that.

 

[M3J]

But Anakin's choice was out of selfish desire, no? He did what he did because he wanted Padme, not because he wanted her to live, with or without him. Jacen and Anakin's paths are somewhat similar. Both chose the dark side to save the ones they loved, but Jacen was willing to die for his daughter. Jacen even killed his own aunt and was willing to kill Luke and Ben, his own blood. Though, when he fought his twin sister, he sacrificed his life to make sure his daughter and former lover survived an attack on them.

But how would the Force be in balance without both side? Without the dark side, it'd be unbalanced in the light side's favor.

 

[kkck]

I think it's really only portrayed weirdly in the movies... well, more like they never bother with it in the movies at all. Which is a huge letdown for me generally. That's what I was hoping they were going for with the new trilogy after the first film and what was hinted at prior to TFA's release, but no...

Seriously... The movies not only not address this middle path stuff but they actively seem to avoid the force when they can. You have virtually no force users 30 years after TJR, in TFA you basically have rey learning the most basic stuff and in TLJ all the force stuff is basically stuff we would have known for decades. Midichlorians are not lucas' finest moment (I don't think they are as that bad though) but come on, at least the guy was trying build on the stuff he had. I can't say I would want legends stuff like a sith blowing up a sun but come on, would it have killed them to show luke fight the first order with a laser sword at least if you are going to avoid literally all other force stuff?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 3, 2018 ---

But Anakin's choice was out of selfish desire, no? He did what he did because he wanted Padme, not because he wanted her to live, with or without him. Jacen and Anakin's paths are somewhat similar. Both chose the dark side to save the ones they loved, but Jacen was willing to die for his daughter. Jacen even killed his own aunt and was willing to kill Luke and Ben, his own blood. Though, when he fought his twin sister, he sacrificed his life to make sure his daughter and former lover survived an attack on them.

But how would the Force be in balance without both side? Without the dark side, it'd be unbalanced in the light side's favor.

Yeah, he did it out of selflessness but the dark side corruption he went through absolutely made him a selfish asshole. Do you think he was trying to save padme when he almost choked the life out of her? Anakin at that point was more focused on power than padme. The dark side corrupts people and makes them powerhungry and selfish. The original intention being good does not change that.

 

[upsurge]

Not necessarily selfish assholes. A lot of Dark siders can be selfless, committing horrible deeds for others' sake. Jacen (though not canon anymore) became a Sith for his daughter. What was Maul's ambition and reason anyway?

I thought Lucas made it clear that balance to the Force meant no dark side of the Force being used, otherwise why have Vader and Palpatine killed?

Good point on Jacen Solo.

Maul wanted power and vengeance. TCW made that abundantly clear.

Lucas made it clear through the Force Priestesses that acknowledging that one has a Dark Side but not giving into it is what makes true balance. Based on what I remember of the Force Priestesses' teachings, it seems just being in denial of the Dark Side on not addressing it at all is a bad idea.

But Anakin's choice was out of selfish desire, no?

His fear of loss played a big part. The loss of Qui-Gon (whom he began to see as a father figure) and then the loss of Shmi, and then Ahsoka (a younger sister figure) walking away from him instilled in him a fear of loss.

Yeah, he did it out of selflessness but the dark side corruption he went through absolutely made him a selfish asshole. Do you think he was trying to save padme when he almost choked the life out of her? Anakin at that point was more focused on power than padme. The dark side corrupts people and makes them powerhungry and selfish. The original intention being good does not change that.

Yes. Well said.

 

[Arjuna]

When will Rebels end actually?