Discussion Stat Sheet Discussion/Prediction

[Ninomiya]

Mitsuya probably has higher bases than Renji. Inui and Renji probably have around the same stats. Mitsuya had all of Renji's data and no data on Inui whereas Inui did have a fair amount of data on Mitsuya. Inui and Renji have complete data of each other.

It's pretty clear that those situations are all different.

So, Inui can beat his teacher, yet Yanagi cant beat his teacher??
Or Yanagi hasnt been known to play Mitsuya for what would have to be a minimum of FOUR years? But he cant win? And Mitsuya still knows him inside out?
Inui > Yanagi.
Inui just met Mitsuya and never saw him do much in walking over Yanagi but he won? Inui > Yanagi for real.

---------- Post added at 01:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

Saying Inui and Renji are on "the same level" is very misleading. They are equal in terms of facing against one another, but not against anybody else. Inui would NOT have beaten Kirihara like Renji did. He just simply wouldn't have. End of story. He got sent to the hospital the last time he tried. This is proof that Inui vs Data player is a TOTALLY different ball game than Inui vs non-data player. This is true for ALL data players. Data vs Data is on a separate scale than Data vs Non-Data. The game is played completely differently.

Kirihara only damaged Inui due to YANAGI's data. So why wouldnt Inui win against Kirihara?

 

[Kaoz]

So, Inui can beat his teacher, yet Yanagi cant beat his teacher??
Or Yanagi hasnt been known to play Mitsuya for what would have to be a minimum of FOUR years? But he cant win? And Mitsuya still knows him inside out?
Inui > Yanagi.
Inui just met Mitsuya and never saw him do much in walking over Yanagi but he won? Inui > Yanagi for real.

Yanagi and Mitsuya have an equal amount of data on each other (I don't think you can argue that Yanagi's data is better here), Mitsuya has likely higher stats, so Mitusya stomps Yanagi.
Yanagi and Inui were shown to be pretty much equal, both in the data they have on each other, as well as stat wise, so the chance that one of them beats the other is roughly 50%.
Following that, stat wise Mitsuya > Inui. Mitsuya has absolutely no data on Inui. Inui has part of Mitsuya's data (you can't really support how much he has either way since not much of Yanagi's efforts were shown), and we've seen since the beginning of the series that data tennis can make up for a rather significant amount of stats. It's not like Inui completely destroyed Mitsuya either, from what we know he had a 33% chance to win.

Inui ~= Yanagi.

 

[Fayte]

Kirihara only damaged Inui due to YANAGI's data. So why wouldnt Inui win against Kirihara?

This is a MASSIVE understatement. Kirihara simply exploded on Inui and sent him to the hospital because Inui wasn't good enough to not get slave-whipped by Kirihara's tennis balls. That had absolutely nothing to do with Yanagi's data.

YANAGI dominated Inui due to his own data (return-acing waterfall, etc). That had nothing to do with why Kirihara dominated Inui.

 

[Ninomiya]

Yanagi and Mitsuya have an equal amount of data on each other (I don't think you can argue that Yanagi's data is better here), Mitsuya has likely higher stats, so Mitusya stomps Yanagi.

Mitsuya > Yanagi.
Mitsuya hasnt seen yanagi for 4 years. Yet Mitsuya was ALL OVER him. Surely in 4 years you can change your data.
Remember Yanagi changed his own data as he says before he faces Inui/Kaidoh pair in the Nationals?

So Yanagi had changed his data. So the whole Mitsuya knowing him equally is less valid now.

Inui >Yanagi since like Yanagi, Inui had data that truly, Mitsuya shouldnt have, but Inui won. While Yanagi didnt just lose, he fainted before he lost. It was an appalling defeat from a strong player.

---------- Post added at 10:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 AM ----------

This is a MASSIVE understatement. Kirihara simply exploded on Inui and sent him to the hospital because Inui wasn't good enough to not get slave-whipped by Kirihara's tennis balls. That had absolutely nothing to do with Yanagi's data.

YANAGI dominated Inui due to his own data (return-acing waterfall, etc). That had nothing to do with why Kirihara dominated Inui.

I dont see how bro.
Kirihara was given data on Inui from Yanagi.

You really think Kirihara would have returned Waterfall without being told by Yanagi?
Remembering that Kaoz and you constantly support Inui being roughly equal, Inui and Yanagi are shown in Pair Puri 9 trading data with one another.
In the camp, the two of them are at a computer together.
They probably have equal data now.

As far as im concerned if they have equal data then the wrecking that Yanagi handed Kirihara, Inui is most certainly capable of.

 

[Fayte]

Kirihara was given data on Inui from Yanagi.

You really think Kirihara would have returned Waterfall without being told by Yanagi?

Where does it say Kirihara ever used Yanagi's data? The only emphasis that was ever explained when it came to the Yanagi/Kirihara pair was the fact Devil mode could be controlled. Nowhere does it say Kirihara ever used Yanagi's data. I don't even remember a single time when Yanaga even spoke to Kirihara aside from the whole "racquet to the back of the knees" thing.

Remembering that Kaoz and you constantly support Inui being roughly equal

Let me clarify, I do not know what Kaoz beleives, but I do not believe (nor have I ever) that Inui and Renji are equal. They are equal when it comes to playing "eachother" specifically, but not when it comes to playing other people who are not Data players. Those two views are not the same thing.

 

[Ninomiya]

Where does it say Kirihara ever used Yanagi's data? The only emphasis that was ever explained when it came to the Yanagi/Kirihara pair was the fact Devil mode could be controlled. Nowhere does it say Kirihara ever used Yanagi's data. I don't even remember a single time when Yanaga even spoke to Kirihara aside from the whole "racquet to the back of the knees" thing.

Fine, do you believe Kirihara > Inui? Since Yanagi and Inui share data, I don't see Devil Mode working on Inui again.
And Angel Mode so far is exclusive to pairing with Shiraishi.

Let me clarify, I do not know what Kaoz beleives, but I do not believe (nor have I ever) that Inui and Renji are equal. They are equal when it comes to playing "eachother" specifically, but not when it comes to playing other people who are not Data players. Those two views are not the same thing.

Do you then believe Yanagi > Inui?
Which there is nothing to really support on anymore.

 

[-Ken-]

Where does it say Kirihara ever used Yanagi's data? The only emphasis that was ever explained when it came to the Yanagi/Kirihara pair was the fact Devil mode could be controlled. Nowhere does it say Kirihara ever used Yanagi's data. I don't even remember a single time when Yanaga even spoke to Kirihara aside from the whole "racquet to the back of the knees" thing.

It's very much highly suggest that Yanagi gave data of Waterfall to Kirihara here;

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/prince_of_tennis/c356/7.html

So even if you don't remember it, obviously doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[Fayte]

It's very much highly suggest that Yanagi gave data of Waterfall to Kirihara here;

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/prince_of_tennis/c356/7.html

So even if you don't remember it, obviously doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Okay, so you have an argument for Kirihara knowing where Waterfall was going to land. Fantastic. That still doesn't mean:

A) Kirihara would not be able to return waterfall without the data.
B) Kirihara is worse than Inui.
C) Inui would have beat Kirihara if he had the data.

Why? Because,

A) Inui himself said he gathered enough data after three games.
B) Renji acknowledges the fact specifically "Kirihara's" skill is just on another level.
C) Data means nothing when you don't have the ability use it.

Conclusion?
Bloodshot mode Kirihara vs Inui = Kirihara
Devil mode Kirihara vs Inui = LOL

 

[-Ken-]

Well, for number A B and C. You can't prove the opposite is true either. Because in that match, Kirihara DO got Inui data, so ANYTHING in that match in pretty much void for arguing the case of no data. Care to prove otherwise?

Oh, and that Kirihara page? That's just tornado snake. For all I remember, Kirihara get completely own by gyro+tornado. And devil mode kirihara never go head to head with Kaidoh even then, and because he's pretty much "escaping" in that form, similar to Third court against Shiraishi, I'll assume Kaidoh is stronger then. In fact, if anything, Kirihara LOVE payback. But he choose not to do payback even if he get hit in his freakin face.

And EVEN if Kirihara devil manage to beat Kaidoh, Kaidoh still get his own Devil mode, so Kaidoh would own Kirihara again, unless Kirihara devil mode is stronger, but there's nothing to prove that.

 

[Fayte]

You can't prove the opposite is true either. Because in that match, Kirihara DO got Inui data, so ANYTHING in that match in pretty much void for arguing the case of no data. Care to prove otherwise?

It is circular reasoning, because you can't prove I'm wrong. Also, my argument is not that Kirihara had no use of Data. My argument is Data is not the reason Kirihara is better than Inui. Data is only knowledge. Knowledge is useless if you do not have the skill to use it. The only thing Data did for Kirihara was tell him where Waterfall would land. That's all we have. That says NOTHING as to why Kirihara was able to go devil mode and send Inui off to the hospital. That has nothing to do with Data, that is just overall skill. Saying otherwise is a baseless argument and highly illogical.

And EVEN if Kirihara devil manage to beat Kaidoh, Kaidoh still get his own Devil mode, so Kaidoh would own Kirihara again, unless Kirihara devil mode is stronger, but there's nothing to prove that.

Kaidoh does not have devil mode, I'm sorry. That match was at the end of the Prince of Tennis series, and Konomi had no intention of developing that. It was simply fanservice. Now that the series has come back from retirement, we will most likely never see Kaidoh do that again.

 

[Ninomiya]

Kaidoh does not have devil mode, I'm sorry. That match was at the end of the Prince of Tennis series, and Konomi had no intention of developing that. It was simply fanservice. Now that the series has come back from retirement, we will most likely never see Kaidoh do that again.

Simply put, on Kaidoh > Kirihara, Kirihara cannot handle the concept of Gyro Laser, Tornado Snake and other Snakes Kaidoh hits all coming from the same stance. He is helpless as f*ck against the concept. Did you see his face? He couldnt do a thing.

Spoiler

http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/61/357.0/compressed/Prince_of_Tennis_357_p03.jpg

Which is why nothing suggests how Kirihara could actually defeat Yagyuu since he hits Curving Laser and Laserbeam from the same stance. Unless Kirihara can move at Rai speed for a long period of time, Kirihara cannot overcome that threat.
(Kirihara's stats do not show him having amazing stamina)

For Kirihara VS Inui, I said before, Yanagi and Inui are shown on various occasions in New Prince of Tennis sharing data.
If Yanagi can walk over Devil Kirihara, why shouldnt Inui? its strongly hinted their data is equal.
I believe Yanagi > Kaidoh as Inui probably gave Yanagi all of his data too.

Kirihara in the National Finals was handed Yanagi's data for the match.

Spoiler

http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/61/356.0/compressed/Prince_of_Tennis_356_p06.jpg

Yanagi clearly states that HE HIMSELF read the course.

I believe only a tiny tiny difference separates Inui from Yanagi due to Inui being from Seigaku so Konomi feels obliged to giving him the edge.

 

[Fayte]

Simply put, on Kaidoh > Kirihara, Kirihara cannot handle the concept of Gyro Laser, Tornado Snake and other Snakes Kaidoh hits all coming from the same stance. He is helpless as f*ck against the concept. Did you see his face? He couldnt do a thing.

Spoiler

http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/61/357.0/compressed/Prince_of_Tennis_357_p03.jpg

What are you talking about? Kaidoh gets one game, hits Kirihara in the face (making him go devil mode), and then gets raped. How on earth does this mean Kaidoh is somehow better now?

For Kirihara VS Inui, I said before, Yanagi and Inui are shown on various occasions in New Prince of Tennis sharing data.
If Yanagi can walk over Devil Kirihara, why shouldnt Inui? its strongly hinted their data is equal.

And it is strongly hinted that data has nothing to do with physical abilities. Data means nothing if your body can't keep up. Equal data does not mean equal abilities. Inui HAD DATA to the point of himself saying he gathered it all (two different times), and STILL got dominated. It isn't "just" about data, and that's what this forum needs to understand.

 

[-Ken-]

What are you talking about? Kaidoh gets one game, hits Kirihara in the face (making him go devil mode), and then gets raped. How on earth does this mean Kaidoh is somehow better now?

He rape Kirihara. Then Kirihara turn devil mode and refuse to confront him. How does that mean he get rape? If anything, refusing to confront enemy should be the sign that the enemy is stronger, such as what 3rd court do when they try to target Kirihara, because they believe Shiraishi is stronger then them now. Kirihara, the payback lover, get hit in the face, and didn't try to hit a shot against Kaidoh. So how does Kaidoh get rape? Kirihara devil mode against Kaidoh is NOT show at all.

And it is strongly hinted that data has nothing to do with physical abilities. Data means nothing if your body can't keep up. Equal data does not mean equal abilities. Inui HAD DATA to the point of himself saying he gathered it all (two different times), and STILL got dominated. It isn't "just" about data, and that's what this forum needs to understand.

Didn't Renji say that he didn't show data that easily, meaning Inui get the fake data. And by the time he IS assume to get the real data, he faint, so we don't know anything regarding that now.

 

[Fayte]

He rape Kirihara. Then Kirihara turn devil mode and refuse to confront him. How does that mean he get rape? If anything, refusing to confront enemy should be the sign that the enemy is stronger, such as what 3rd court do when they try to target Kirihara, because they believe Shiraishi is stronger then them now. Kirihara, the payback lover, get hit in the face, and didn't try to hit a shot against Kaidoh. So how does Kaidoh get rape? Kirihara devil mode against Kaidoh is NOT show at all.

Just because Kirihara aimed for Inui doesn't mean he was intimidated by Kaidoh. Kirihara is known for tormenting his opponents, and in this case to torment Kaidoh would be making him watch his partner and friend get knocked out and sent to the hospital to be mummified. It was the psychological route instead of the direct physical route. If Kirihara wanted to beat the crap out of Kaidoh, he would have. There is not one panel showing Kirihara ever being intimidated in any way by Kaidoh while in devil mode. Kirihara doesn't get "scared" when he gets made a fool of, he just gets more angry.

Didn't Renji say that he didn't show data that easily, meaning Inui get the fake data. And by the time he IS assume to get the real data, he faint, so we don't know anything regarding that now.

Please, that last line was for dramatic effect. Besides, who's to say Inui has real data even then? He thought he had real data before, just the same.

 

[Ninomiya]

@Fayte
Inui purposely gave Inui false data. Which means Kirihara's domination doesnt necessarily prove he is better than anyone in that match. Konomi has Yanagi state so.

And Yanagi DID hand Kirihara data like the proof I just showed. physically, I believe Inui > Yanagi.
Which is why Inui > Mitsuya. Inui's training regime is 2.25 times harder than Kaidoh's remember?

And did you see the terror in Kirihara's face when Kirihara realized Kaidoh hit his senpai's shot?
Both he and Yanagi were scared shitless. They know that if a player can hit Laser + other shots from the same stance that they are likely screwed.
Kirihara is helpless against it.

 

[Fayte]

@Fayte
And did you see the terror in Kirihara's face when Kirihara realized Kaidoh hit his senpai's shot?
Both he and Yanagi were scared shitless. They know that if a player can hit Laser + other shots from the same stance that they are likely screwed.
Kirihara is helpless against it.

That was red eyed Kirihara. Not devil mode. Context is important. Also, they were not "scared." They were surprised that he hit Yagyuu's technique.

 

[-Ken-]

Just because Kirihara aimed for Inui doesn't mean he was intimidated by Kaidoh. Kirihara is known for tormenting his opponents, and in this case to torment Kaidoh would be making him watch his partner and friend get knocked out and sent to the hospital to be mummified. It was the psychological route instead of the direct physical route. If Kirihara wanted to beat the crap out of Kaidoh, he would have. There is not one panel showing Kirihara ever being intimidated in any way by Kaidoh while in devil mode. Kirihara doesn't get "scared" when he gets made a fool of, he just gets more angry.

It's also happen to by the ONLY match Kirihara go for psychological instead of physical, coincidence, huh?

Please, that last line was for dramatic effect. Besides, who's to say Inui has real data even then? He thought he had real data before, just the same.

Who's to say he doesn't have true data then?

As you can see, this argument is full of assumption. Assumption's not gonna prove anyone right.

What we know;

Kaidoh> Red eye Kirihara
Devil mode Kirihara> Red eye Kirihara
Devil mode Kirihara> Inui without correct data

That's it. You can't compare Kaidoh to Devil Mode Kirihara.

 

[Ninomiya]

That was red eyed Kirihara. Not devil mode. Context is important. Also, they were not "scared." They were surprised that he hit Yagyuu's technique.

Yeah you're right, its only BloodshotMode!Kirihara.
But nothing suggests he can hit it back. He has no idea if its a Tornado Snake or a Gyro Laser. What can Kirihara do?

 

[Brandnewkid]

"THE TORNADO SNAKE WON'T BEAT A PLAYER WITH RED EYES."

Just felt the need to quote that amazingly retarded piece of dialogue from the Viz English translation of the manga. Hope that helps.

 

[Kaoz]

[2012-10-07 00:15:55] <Kaoz> btw something about Krauser
[2012-10-07 00:16:19] <Zi> hmm?
[2012-10-07 00:16:34] <Kaoz> I think we might undervalue his power a bit... Gin does compare him to Kintarou before the team shuffle, strength wise... obviously he isn't quite as strong, but that's still saying something
[2012-10-07 00:18:14] <Kaoz> like I wouldn't exactly bet on any MSers breaking the charts at that point
[2012-10-07 00:23:31] <Kaoz> Zi what do you think?
[2012-10-07 00:23:37] <Zi> About what?
[2012-10-07 00:23:55] <Zi> Oh, whether the MSers were above 5 in any stats at the Team Shuffle?
[2012-10-07 00:23:59] <Kaoz> yeah
[2012-10-07 00:24:11] <Zi> Well, Tezuka didn't have a 5.5 or 6 in tech
[2012-10-07 00:24:26] <Zi> Gin may have had a 5.5 in power
[2012-10-07 00:24:29] <Kaoz> Tezuka and Atobe only had a 3 in speed and Shiraishi a 3.5
[2012-10-07 00:24:35] <Kaoz> so I could see Kenya with a 5

Some food for thought maybe.