Special Move Techniques Discussion

[Kaoz]

I'd assume the double spin would negate the initial spin, and the original guy who hit the Phantom will now see the ball go out of bounds for twice the distance compared to before.

When Tezuka and Kabaji used Zone + Hyakuren, both were able to maintain the Zone iirc. Since Phantom is the same thing as Zone, just reversed, the outcome should be similarly I'd guess, making the Hyakuren user's ball go out.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

So Hyakuren can't return Phantom and Rai then?

 

[Phantron]

So Hyakuren can't return Phantom and Rai then?

Hyakuren definitely doesn't work on Rai. Originally it's because you can't use Hyakuren on something you can't hit, but even after Tezuka used TZone he still can't return Rai. There was never any good explanation on why you can't return it but that's just the way it is. I guess there's still a treshold to the maximum power that can be returned by Hyakuren. After all in the Kabaji vs Tezuka game, Tezuka cannot returned a double Hyakuren (original power X 4) shot from Kabaji even with Hyakuren.

I don't see why Hyakuren wouldn't work on TPhantom. Putting twice the spin should cancel out the initial spin, allowing you to return it. That said the Hyakuren return isn't something that's free (otherwise Kabaji vs Tezuka game would just go on forever). Given TPhantom really hurts the user I'd assume using Hyakuren on it inherits the self-damage property too.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Hyakuren definitely doesn't work on Rai. Originally it's because you can't use Hyakuren on something you can't hit, but even after Tezuka used TZone he still can't return Rai. There was never any good explanation on why you can't return it but that's just the way it is. I guess there's still a treshold to the maximum power that can be returned by Hyakuren. After all in the Kabaji vs Tezuka game, Tezuka cannot returned a double Hyakuren (original power X 4) shot from Kabaji even with Hyakuren.

I don't see why Hyakuren wouldn't work on TPhantom. Putting twice the spin should cancel out the initial spin, allowing you to return it. That said the Hyakuren return isn't something that's free (otherwise Kabaji vs Tezuka game would just go on forever). Given TPhantom really hurts the user I'd assume using Hyakuren on it inherits the self-damage property too.

My theory to Hyakuren is that it is a short burst of Muga. Allow me to explain. Muga on its own allows the user to use techniques they've seen in the past. Hyakuren first off uses Muga to immediately copy the shot. Then since the Muga energy is concentrated on the arm, the shot is returned exactly the same as it came but with the properties are doubled.

So why can't Rai be returned with Hyakuren? Well, Rai is hit with the frame, no? When Tezuka tried to return it with Hyakuren with his racquet gut he failed. The racquet gut cannot replicate the properties of the racquet frame. So if Rai was hit, then a Hyakuren utilising the frame should theoretically work.

 

[Ninomiya]

The only techniques I can think of that can counter power are Higuma Otoshi, Rai, Hyakuren, and Hadoukyu Parry.

It's bothered me for a while. But shouldnt Shiraishi's Entaku Shot counter power shots to an extent?
Like... Shouldn't Shiraishi be able to shit on Rai since Entaku Shot uses the frame of the racket.

I know Sanada > Shiraishi obviously but seriously, if he has a special shot that uses the frame then surely Entaku Shot can counter a variety of power shots no?

My theory to Hyakuren is that it is a short burst of Muga. Allow me to explain. Muga on its own allows the user to use techniques they've seen in the past. Hyakuren first off uses Muga to immediately copy the shot. Then since the Muga energy is concentrated on the arm, the shot is returned exactly the same as it came but with the properties are doubled.

So why can't Rai be returned with Hyakuren? Well, Rai is hit with the frame, no? When Tezuka tried to return it with Hyakuren with his racquet gut he failed. The racquet gut cannot replicate the properties of the racquet frame. So if Rai was hit, then a Hyakuren utilising the frame should theoretically work.

I believe Hyakku Ren only applies to shots using the strings of the racket.
And secondly, Hyakku Ren-1-hand is for one-handed shots from what we have seen.
The standard Rai is a Two-Handed Shot so no, Hyakku Ren cannot return Rai. Since Hyakku Ren is always only in one part of the body.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

It's bothered me for a while. But shouldnt Shiraishi's Entaku Shot counter power shots to an extent?
Like... Shouldn't Shiraishi be able to shit on Rai since Entaku Shot uses the frame of the racket.

I know Sanada > Shiraishi obviously but seriously, if he has a special shot that uses the frame then surely Entaku Shot can counter a variety of power shots no?

---------- Post added at 08:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------



I believe Hyakku Ren only applies to shots using the strings of the racket.
And secondly, Hyakku Ren-1-hand is for one-handed shots from what we have seen.
The standard Rai is a Two-Handed Shot so no, Hyakku Ren cannot return Rai. Since Hyakku Ren is always only in one part of the body.

You can include Abare Dama with that as well if you think about it. Also when Fuji faced Kirihara he did a clean return with the frame.

And you cant replicate two hands with one hand and you can't replicate the frame with the gut. Rai>Hyakuren

 

[Ninomiya]

You can include Abare Dama with that as well if you think about it. Also when Fuji faced Kirihara he did a clean return with the frame.

And you cant replicate two hands with one hand and you can't replicate the frame with the gut. Rai>Hyakuren

There you go.
Theoritically Sanada will only use Rai's movement when up against Tachibana and Shiraishi.
I believe Abare Dama and Entaku Shot should be able to at least get the ball back into Sanada's court.

Although Fuji can't do that shot on demand even with Closed Eyes. Unless we see him do it. Which would be amazing.
Wow. I miss Fuji matches. I think I might even skip Fuji's match in the manga and wait for it to be animated.
Since Fuji VS Niou was animated so well.

 

[Phantron]

If Tezuka whiffed on Rai then Shiraishi and Tachibana would do exactly the same thing too. You're talking about a guy who can return all kinds of special hits normally unable to even touch the ball here.

If you take NPOT Rai where Rai clearly loses the 'impossible to hit' property and is basically just another power shot then Tachibana ought to be strong enough to return it but Shiraishi has identical strength rating as Tezuka, so he can't do it.

 

[-Ken-]

That's Shiraishi before golden gauntlet removal you're talking about. I think Shiraishi can return it if he hits it.

Of course, I don't think Tachibana or Shiraishi can even hit the ball. Tezuka need to use Tezuka Zone to try to hit it.

 

[Brandnewkid]

So, about the 13 Execution techniques ... I'd say they rank pretty high since you can virtually hit them anywhere. Especially ones like Seppuku and Dialemismos, which would really fuck anyone up. And you become paralyzed once hit by all 13? Yikes.

 

[Phantron]

So, about the 13 Execution techniques ... I'd say they rank pretty high since you can virtually hit them anywhere. Especially ones like Seppuku and Dialemismos, which would really fuck anyone up. And you become paralyzed once hit by all 13? Yikes.

Although there's a lot of bloodshed in chapter 90, I don't really see why the execution techniques are better than the generic one-hit KO power techs. Marui and Kite aren't exactly the top tier characters and even they lasted/dopged/returned quite a few of the execution techs. It seems like the low number techs use up a lot of energy and they don't necessarily appear to be any more efficient than the generic power techs.

They'd be pretty strong if the paralyzation aspect kicks in even if you return them all. Otherwise it's pretty pointless to require connecting 13 techs on someone's body when a tech like Duke Homerun will knock someone out the first time it connects. You probably won't need 13 Southern Crosses to take out Nakgauchi and that's a pretty insane difference in the two characters involved (total stat 15 versus 19.5).

 

[Brandnewkid]

Although there's a lot of bloodshed in chapter 90, I don't really see why the execution techniques are better than the generic one-hit KO power techs. Marui and Kite aren't exactly the top tier characters and even they lasted/dopged/returned quite a few of the execution techs. It seems like the low number techs use up a lot of energy and they don't necessarily appear to be any more efficient than the generic power techs.

They'd be pretty strong if the paralyzation aspect kicks in even if you return them all. Otherwise it's pretty pointless to require connecting 13 techs on someone's body when a tech like Duke Homerun will knock someone out the first time it connects. You probably won't need 13 Southern Crosses to take out Nakgauchi and that's a pretty insane difference in the two characters involved (total stat 15 versus 19.5).

You're comparing them to power techniques, but why? Power techniques are a whole different ball game, no pun intended. These are moves meant to "injure the player," not moves meant to "send them flying." The 13 techs are effective on their own, but it's even better once all 13 have been executed. Also, from what we've seen they work well-enough that you can, for lack of better terms, "combo into them," as we saw with Tohno when he executed a whole string of 'em on Kite.

 

[Ninomiya]

Execution Method 13 is decent.
I reckon a bunch of them are decent, but they don't rank too highly.

I put Ohabu, Tightrope Walking and Temporal Difference Hell above quite a few of the Execution techniques.
Marui was handling all of them so easily.

 

[-Ken-]

Execution Method are great as a set . Individually, I won't rank them so high.

 

[Hardy]

Although there's a lot of bloodshed in chapter 90, I don't really see why the execution techniques are better than the generic one-hit KO power techs. Marui and Kite aren't exactly the top tier characters and even they lasted/dopged/returned quite a few of the execution techs. It seems like the low number techs use up a lot of energy and they don't necessarily appear to be any more efficient than the generic power techs.

They'd be pretty strong if the paralyzation aspect kicks in even if you return them all. Otherwise it's pretty pointless to require connecting 13 techs on someone's body when a tech like Duke Homerun will knock someone out the first time it connects. You probably won't need 13 Southern Crosses to take out Nakgauchi and that's a pretty insane difference in the two characters involved (total stat 15 versus 19.5).

WTF, Kite IS Top Tier, he's in the same lvl as Tachibana... and Marui's fortress (or whatever, I don't know) was super hyped in this match, as it is a new tech, so it was obvious that he would return some executions...

 

[Ninomiya]

WTF, Kite IS Top Tier, he's in the same lvl as Tachibana... and Marui's fortress (or whatever, I don't know) was super hyped in this match, as it is a new tech, so it was obvious that he would return some executions...

Just noticed that, Kite IS definetely near the top end of the tier.
Around Inui and Yanagi imo.

 

[Phantron]

The only way execution tech would be great is if a returned one still counts toward the 'total paralyzation effect'. Otherwise as long as someone can return a high number tech then you'd never get the combo effect.

So far as damaging moves go I do not see even the low number execution techs as more powerful than the standard power shot designed to injure someone. There's no point to combo into them if you can't get all 13 to connect. If there is one execution tech you can't land then it's really no different than hitting someone with a standard power shot 12 times except the effect is likely significantly less (e.g. hitting someone's shoe is probably not as damaging as hitting someone's face).

That said even if the effects on execution techs persist even if returned, you can simply just dodge the high # ones instead. It's clear that they start off pretty weak so just focus on avoiding the weakest one so Tohno can't finish the combo. Yes Seppuku looks pretty strong but if you look at the way Tohno was using up energy it's certainly not a worse than getting hit by any decent powershot.

 

[Ninomiya]

Stop comparing it to a Power shot Phantron.
The Execution Methods are just Tennis Shots that are made both, get points but injure the opponent at once.

Whereas Power Play shots are designed to overwhelm the opponent, where the score doesn't matter too much since you're just trying to overwhelm your opponent.

 

[Brandnewkid]

Power shots are meant to do you in in a single blow. These execution moves are clearly meant to torture you are the match goes on. For instance, these are the kinds of moves that would OBLITERATE endurance players like Kaidoh and Jackal.

 

[Ninomiya]

Power shots are meant to do you in in a single blow. These execution moves are clearly meant to torture you are the match goes on. For instance, these are the kinds of moves that would OBLITERATE endurance players like Kaidoh and Jackal.

Better word would be to tear down. Since DH sort of obliterates the opponent too. Ishida had blood leave his mouth, whilst soaring through the sky as if he were a bird.
I'm curious as to how that will be animated now. I'm still in shock everytime I look at that chapter page.
Gin was conscious before the shot touched him, when he landed in Kawamura and Kurobane's arms, us as the readers can't even be sure if he is even breathing properly.