Theory - The 12 Supreme Grade Blades and why Roger couldn't get the One Piece. | MangaHelpers



  • Join in and nominate your favorite shows of the summer season 2023!

Theory The 12 Supreme Grade Blades and why Roger couldn't get the One Piece.

Zmsp

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
959
Reaction score
1,140
Gender
Male
Country
Portugal
So, considering we have a long break on our hands, I figured now was a good time to put this theory forward. This is probably just an unpolished version of it, and I’ll update it once I get more solid arguments, but I found it so compelling that I decided to share my findings and conjectures, even if incomplete.

Part one: Roger couldn’t get the One Piece.

He got to Laugh Tale and learned about Ancient History, that’s a given, but he was too early and predicted that someone would come along and surpass him.
You can’t really surpass someone if you don’t go beyond what they did, so my assumption is that he found the “treasure chest”, but he couldn’t get the “key”, and the premise here is that the key, or the final piece of it, would only be accessible in 20 years. That’s the whole prophetic side of this story, and why we’ve been told several times that it all comes together in the current day and age. If this is the case, the next logical step is to find an event that really ties it all together, and look for arguments that validate this statement. We have two characters that not only match this criteria, but have narrative backing by the prophecy made by the Sea Kings: Shirahoshi and Luffy.

What made Shanks move after years of inactivity? Luffy and his awakening.
The fact that he saw his wanted poster is proof that he actually understands what’s happening, so we'll focus on Luffy.

Part two: 12 Supreme Blades, 21 Great Blades, 50 Skillful Blades.

This concept was introduced during the Baratie arc, so it’s something that Oda thought about from the beginning. Isn’t it strange that we’re now entering the final saga, and we know nothing about these weapons? We currently have three shown blades: Ace, Yoru and Murakumogiri, and those are associated with three very important characters.
The owners go beyond what I’m trying to convey here, because it’d be worthy of a theory of its own, so let’s just associate the importance of the weapons with the importance of the characters wielding them: they stand at the summit of the piracy world. The Shodai Kitetsu was also revealed, but we know nothing about it except that it’s cursed, and made by a Kozuki ancestor.

So, we have 8 weapons left, and one saga to show them all. This feels suspicious, and builds up their importance: we have one final saga to reveal the rest of them and explain what's so special about them, but we have enough on our hands to start connecting some dots. Let's take a look at the importance of certain numbers in the grand scheme of things, and how they're pretty much a story within a story: the sword hierarchy within the story is comparable to the political hierarchy of the One Piece world:

  • 50 Skillful Blades, just like the 50 Kings of the lower realms that attend the Reverie.
  • 21 Great Blades, a number that seems weirdly similar to the 20 families that created the World Government, but one of them sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps one of the Kings did not survive the war? Or maybe he got promoted?
  • 12 Supreme Blades, and these are the ones we need to speculate about.
In chapter 1083, Monkey D. Dragon actually tells us a story that include the most important part of these numbers:

Let's look at these numbers: 12 kingdoms rebelled, 8 of them were sucessful, but 4 of them were not.
One of those 8 paid a heavier price, and got erased from existence.

Could it be a coincidence that a certain symbol that keeps appearing in countries associated with Poneglyphs has 8 smaller circles?
Could it be a coincidence that the World Government flag has 4 smaller circles? Or the Hoof of the Soaring Dragon has 4 marks?
Could it be a coincidence that we have one missing race?

Well, it actually could, and you might not agree with my interpretation, but I feel like these numbers add up.It's only fitting that chapter 1083 is titled: "The truth about that day."
It might be packing a whole lot of truthful depictions.

Part 2.1: Craftsmanship and Salinity.

The panels that got me rolling with this theory are actually from Fishman Island, and I believe they tell us an important part of it, but let me provide some context first.

Wano added depth to blades and their temperaments, but it still left a lot of questions unanswered.
Let us take notice that a blade like Shosui, wielded by Ryuuma, a character equated to a Sword God, was a Black Blade, but not a Supreme Grade Blade, so there’s a whole different layer of power associated with a Supreme Grade Blade. Enma was a very hard weapon to master, and not only was it temperamental and drained the Haki of its wielder, it gave us a lot of information: blades can be somewhat sentient, and there’s proof of that not only with the remnants of Oden’s Haki, but also the way it reacted to the song Hyori played. I don’t think this is a huge logical leap, but Supreme Grade Blades and their temperaments are probably connected to the other Supreme nomenclature we have: Color of the Supreme King Haki. I believe those weapons were wielded by the primordial kings of this story.

Another important question is the reason why they’re not craftable anymore. Is it a lack of talented swordsmiths? Or was the craftsmanship technique lost in time? I think this brings us to another important piece of information related to Wano: the Kozuki clan were masons capable of creating indestructible Poneglyphs, and those remain a mystery to this day. They were also able to craft Kairoseki items, who seem to harness the power of the sea, and this leads me to the panels I mentioned before:


Oda just loves to hide important information in seemingly unimportant panels, and this one screams out to me. It’s a gag, but it’s meant for us viewers to read in between the lines: wouldn’t Zoro love to have a Supreme Grade Blade? Luffy could tie to this in more than one way, but the most logical one to me is how he probably played with Ace and his dagger, who just so happens to be unnamed, and placed right beside Murakumogiri or Gryphon (the ungraded blade wielded by Shanks). Alternative and more figurative interpretations could be the Straw Hat or something related to Garp, but the first two seem plausible enough to me.

I don’t know if salinity is actually a clue on the crafting process of these blades, or just a metaphor for Oda to give us these hints, but the Kairoseki craftsmanship comes to mind, given its association with the sea. It goes beyond what I'm trying to convey here, so I'll look into it eventually.

Part 3: Twelve Blades/Twelve Keys and the One Piece

This is where it starts getting a bit convoluted, but I find it a plausible assumption: we might be taking the term “Blades” a bit too literally. If they’re heirloom weapons, they’ll be connected to the Kingdom/King that it relates to, and not everyone fights equally. I’m not trying to predict what the weapons will be, but we’ve seen Vivi fighting with discs/chakrams, Snipers using bows and rifles, Carrot using gloves (and Luffy has used them as well), Kaido wielding a mace, Fishman using tridents, and the list goes on and on.

The main idea that I'm trying to convey is that perhaps there's more to these weapons than simply being strong blades, and the sentience shown by Enma is good enough reason for me to think that it's not just a possible scenario, but rather a probable one. If the search for One Piece and these twelve weapons are some of the oldest mysteries in the story, and we've entered the final saga, I think it's fairly reasonable to think that they might be related!

If we think about them as keys, we actually have a metaphorical depiction of this, but on a smaller scale: Enies Lobby and rescuing Robin -> The Straw Hats had to retrieve keys guarded by Cypher Pol, find the right cuffs, and the ultimate goal was to find the key that would liberate Robin, the one "capable of resurrecting Ancient Weapons."
See where I'm going with this?

How does this relate to the One Piece mystery? I know a couple of people are more inclined to think that it's just a random item supposed to make us laugh, because One Piece is lighthearted and goofy, but keep in mind that over the past couple of years, the narrative has escalated tremendously, and we have new information to work with: Vegapunk mentions that Ancient Technology had an unknown power source, and leaves behind a conceptual clue: an Eternal Flame.
Keep in mind that a few chapters later, the Gorosei utilize a new weapon created by the man himself, and mention a "Mother Flame", that seems flawed in some way, because said weapon can't be freely put to use. This "Eternal Flame" seems like the end goal, just like the One Piece.
It also has some "Philosopher Stone" connotations to it, the Magnus Opum of alchemical work, and here's where it gets interesting: It's usually associated with transmutation of base metals into Gold, and both Jaya and Wano were once called cities made of gold. The more inclusive depiction is that it performs miracles, so that opens up a lot of possible outcomes.

The moment I started thinking about these Twelve Supreme Graded Blades as keys, I googled "Twelve Keys".
To my surprise, I found "The Twelve Keys of Basil Valentine", an alchemical book based on the twelve steps to create the Philosopher Stone. Is it a coincidence that Basil Hawkins is a character that heavily borrows occultist/alchemical references? He's all about divination, voodoo and had a first mate named Faust.

This is not just headcannon, but a concept that Oda clearly thought about. I might be completely wrong on the interpretation of these references, but there's something going on here, and if nothing else, I hope this gets people interested and thinking about their own interpretations of it.

Thank you for reading this far! It's about time we tie this all together!

Part 4: Luffy?

If we assume these heirloom weapons could be pieces of the puzzle, I'll go back to the beginning: What made Shanks finally move after years of inactivity? He realized that the conditions to acquire One Piece were finally here: The appearance of the final piece -> “The Drums of Liberation”, after 800 years. He clearly knows more than we do, and looking at Luffy's wanted poster, in his Nika form, was the moment he decided it was time to make his move.

I know this seems wildly different from a blade, or even a weapon, but the “Drums of War” are something you've probably heard of, and they're a weapon in itself. They might even be the scariest: it's a psychological weapon, and one that incites rebellion.

Sadly, this has some tragedic tones to it: people might try to rip out Luffy's heart, or his death might even a requirement to access the One Piece. If some sort of alchemical or occultist practice serves as inspiration for these keys, we might be in for something dark. It also makes way for some plot twists and philosophical questions, but I don't want to deviate too much from the original theory.

Before you call me crazy, I know this is a shonen, and the amount of gore is limited. I'll once again state the following: my interpretation could be completely wrong, but this is not headcannon! It's a concept that Oda played around with in Punk Hazard: removing hearts.

Obviously, this wouldn't be the end of it: it could make way for a much speculated sacrifice by Law, or immortalize Usopp as a brave warrior of the sea, by giving his heart to Luffy. These are just my romanticized solutions to this hypothetical tragedy, but I might've gone too far into it.

Let's leave it as this: Luffy's heart, the "drums of liberation", might be the missing piece that finally unlocks the One Piece.

Final Thoughts
Well, not much... Thank you for your patience, and I hope you found it interesting.
Feedback is always appreciated!
 
Last edited:

Critical mindset

Registered User
下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
90
Reaction score
43
Age
28
Country
Sweden
So, considering we have a long break on our hands, I figured now was a good time to put this theory forward. This is probably just an unpolished version of it, and I’ll update it once I get more solid arguments, but I found it so compelling that I decided to share my findings and conjectures, even if incomplete.

Part one: Roger couldn’t get the One Piece.

He got to Laugh Tale and learned about Ancient History, that’s a given, but he was too early and predicted that someone would come along and surpass him.
You can’t really surpass someone if you don’t go beyond what they did, so my assumption is that he found the “treasure chest”, but he couldn’t get the “key”, and the premise here is that the key, or the final piece of it, would only be accessible in 20 years. That’s the whole prophetic side of this story, and why we’ve been told several times that it all comes together in the current day and age. If this is the case, the next logical step is to find an event that really ties it all together, and look for arguments that validate this statement. We have two characters that not only match this criteria, but have narrative backing by the prophecy made by the Sea Kings: Shirahoshi and Luffy.

What made Shanks move after years of inactivity? Luffy and his awakening.
The fact that he saw his wanted poster is proof that he actually understands what’s happening, so we'll focus on Luffy.

Part two: 12 Supreme Blades, 21 Great Blades, 50 Skillful Blades.

This concept was introduced during the Baratie arc, so it’s something that Oda thought about from the beginning. Isn’t it strange that we’re now entering the final saga, and we know nothing about these weapons? We currently have three shown blades: Ace, Yoru and Murakumogiri, and those are associated with three very important characters.
The owners go beyond what I’m trying to convey here, because it’d be worthy of a theory of its own, so let’s just associate the importance of the weapons with the importance of the characters wielding them: they stand at the summit of the piracy world. The Shodai Kitetsu was also revealed, but we know nothing about it except that it’s cursed, and made by a Kozuki ancestor.

So, we have 8 weapons left, and one saga to show them all. This feels suspicious, and builds up their importance: we have one final saga to reveal the rest of them and explain what's so special about them, but we have enough on our hands to start connecting some dots. Let's take a look at the importance of certain numbers in the grand scheme of things, and how they're pretty much a story within a story: the sword hierarchy within the story is comparable to the political hierarchy of the One Piece world:

  • 50 Skillful Blades, just like the 50 Kings of the lower realms that attend the Reverie.
  • 21 Great Blades, a number that seems weirdly similar to the 20 families that created the World Government, but one of them sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps one of the Kings did not survive the war? Or maybe he got promoted?
  • 12 Supreme Blades, and these are the ones we need to speculate about.
In chapter 1083, Monkey D. Dragon actually tells us a story that include the most important part of these numbers:

Let's look at these numbers: 12 kingdoms rebelled, 8 of them were sucessful, but 4 of them were not.
One of those 8 paid a heavier price, and got erased from existence.

Could it be a coincidence that a certain symbol that keeps appearing in countries associated with Poneglyphs has 8 smaller circles?
Could it be a coincidence that the World Government flag has 4 smaller circles? Or the Hoof of the Soaring Dragon has 4 marks?
Could it be a coincidence that we have one missing race?

Well, it actually could, and you might not agree with my interpretation, but I feel like these numbers add up.It's only fitting that chapter 1083 is titled: "The truth about that day."
It might be packing a whole lot of truthful depictions.

Part 2.1: Craftsmanship and Salinity.

The panels that got me rolling with this theory are actually from Fishman Island, and I believe they tell us an important part of it, but let me provide some context first.

Wano added depth to blades and their temperaments, but it still left a lot of questions unanswered.
Let us take notice that a blade like Shosui, wielded by Ryuuma, a character equated to a Sword God, was a Black Blade, but not a Supreme Grade Blade, so there’s a whole different layer of power associated with a Supreme Grade Blade. Enma was a very hard weapon to master, and not only was it temperamental and drained the Haki of its wielder, it gave us a lot of information: blades can be somewhat sentient, and there’s proof of that not only with the remnants of Oden’s Haki, but also the way it reacted to the song Hyori played. I don’t think this is a huge logical leap, but Supreme Grade Blades and their temperaments are probably connected to the other Supreme nomenclature we have: Color of the Supreme King Haki. I believe those weapons were wielded by the primordial kings of this story.

Another important question is the reason why they’re not craftable anymore. Is it a lack of talented swordsmiths? Or was the craftsmanship technique lost in time? I think this brings us to another important piece of information related to Wano: the Kozuki clan were masons capable of creating indestructible Poneglyphs, and those remain a mystery to this day. They were also able to craft Kairoseki items, who seem to harness the power of the sea, and this leads me to the panels I mentioned before:


Oda just loves to hide important information in seemingly unimportant panels, and this one screams out to me. It’s a gag, but it’s meant for us viewers to read in between the lines: wouldn’t Zoro love to have a Supreme Grade Blade? Luffy could tie to this in more than one way, but the most logical one to me is how he probably played with Ace and his dagger, who just so happens to be unnamed, and placed right beside Murakumogiri or Gryphon (the ungraded blade wielded by Shanks). Alternative and more figurative interpretations could be the Straw Hat or something related to Garp, but the first two seem plausible enough to me.

I don’t know if salinity is actually a clue on the crafting process of these blades, or just a metaphor for Oda to give us these hints, but the Kairoseki craftsmanship comes to mind, given its association with the sea. It goes beyond what I'm trying to convey here, so I'll look into it eventually.

Part 3: Twelve Blades/Twelve Keys and the One Piece

This is where it starts getting a bit convoluted, but I find it a plausible assumption: we might be taking the term “Blades” a bit too literally. If they’re heirloom weapons, they’ll be connected to the Kingdom/King that it relates to, and not everyone fights equally. I’m not trying to predict what the weapons will be, but we’ve seen Vivi fighting with discs/chakrams, Snipers using bows and rifles, Carrot using gloves (and Luffy has used them as well), Kaido wielding a mace, Fishman using tridents, and the list goes on and on.

The main idea that I'm trying to convey is that perhaps there's more to these weapons than simply being strong blades, and the sentience shown by Enma is good enough reason for me to think that it's not just a possible scenario, but rather a probable one. If the search for One Piece and these twelve weapons are some of the oldest mysteries in the story, and we've entered the final saga, I think it's fairly reasonable to think that they might be related!

If we think about them as keys, we actually have a metaphorical depiction of this, but on a smaller scale: Enies Lobby and rescuing Robin -> The Straw Hats had to retrieve keys guarded by Cypher Pol, find the right cuffs, and the ultimate goal was to find the key that would liberate Robin, the one "capable of resurrecting Ancient Weapons."
See where I'm going with this?

How does this relate to the One Piece mystery? I know a couple of people are more inclined to think that it's just a random item supposed to make us laugh, because One Piece is lighthearted and goofy, but keep in mind that over the past couple of years, the narrative has escalated tremendously, and we have new information to work with: Vegapunk mentions that Ancient Technology had an unknown power source, and leaves behind a conceptual clue: an Eternal Flame.
Keep in mind that a few chapters later, the Gorosei utilize a new weapon created by the man himself, and mention a "Mother Flame", that seems flawed in some way, because said weapon can't be freely put to use. This "Eternal Flame" seems like the end goal, just like the One Piece.
It also has some "Philosopher Stone" connotations to it, the Magnus Opum of alchemical work, and here's where it gets interesting: It's usually associated with transmutation of base metals into Gold, and both Jaya and Wano were once called cities made of gold. The more inclusive depiction is that it performs miracles, so that opens up a lot of possible outcomes.

The moment I started thinking about these Twelve Supreme Graded Blades as keys, I googled "Twelve Keys".
To my surprise, I found "The Twelve Keys of Basil Valentine", an alchemical book based on the twelve steps to create the Philosopher Stone. Is it a coincidence that Basil Hawkins is a character that heavily borrows occultist/alchemical references? He's all about divination, voodoo and had a first mate named Faust.

This is not just headcannon, but a concept that Oda clearly thought about. I might be completely wrong on the interpretation of these references, but there's something going on here, and if nothing else, I hope this gets people interested and thinking about their own interpretations of it.

Thank you for reading this far! It's about time we tie this all together!

Part 4: Luffy?

If we assume these heirloom weapons could be pieces of the puzzle, I'll go back to the beginning: What made Shanks finally move after years of inactivity? He realized that the conditions to acquire One Piece were finally here: The appearance of the final piece -> “The Drums of Liberation”, after 800 years. He clearly knows more than we do, and looking at Luffy's wanted poster, in his Nika form, was the moment he decided it was time to make his move.

I know this seems wildly different from a blade, or even a weapon, but the “Drums of War” are something you've probably heard of, and they're a weapon in itself. They might even be the scariest: it's a psychological weapon, and one that incites rebellion.

Sadly, this has some tragedic tones to it: people might try to rip out Luffy's heart, or his death might even a requirement to access the One Piece. If some sort of alchemical or occultist practice serves as inspiration for these keys, we might be in for something dark. It also makes way for some plot twists and philosophical questions, but I don't want to deviate too much from the original theory.

Before you call me crazy, I know this is a shonen, and the amount of gore is limited. I'll once again state the following: my interpretation could be completely wrong, but this is not headcannon! It's a concept that Oda played around with in Punk Hazard: removing hearts.

Obviously, this wouldn't be the end of it: it could make way for a much speculated sacrificed by Law, or immortalize Usopp as a brave warrior of the sea, by giving his heart to Luffy. These are just my romanticized solutions to this hypothetical tragedy, but I might've gone too far into it.

Let's leave it as this: Luffy's heart, the "drums of liberation", might be the missing piece that finally unlocks the One Piece.

Final Thoughts
Well, not much... Thank you for your patience, and I hope you found it interesting.
Feedback is always appreciated!
You might be onto something here . Luffy’s mom might be the woman in RA that can rally people and make them stronger using her df power. Clear metaphor for “drum of liberation”
 

Zmsp

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
959
Reaction score
1,140
Gender
Male
Country
Portugal
You might be onto something here . Luffy’s mom might be the woman in RA that can rally people and make them stronger using her df power. Clear metaphor for “drum of liberation”
Well, I don't think she's the mother, but I do agree that it's clearly another metaphorical depiction of the "Drums of War", and Dragon has his own version of it.

I'm conflicted about Dragon and his motives, but he's the character that opposes the world government, so he's bound have a lot of the same motifs that we've already seen to be antagonistic towards the government:

He's the Dragon that opposes the Celestial Dragons.
He has his own version of the Liberating Sun God -> The Flame Emperor
He has his own version of the Drums of War/Liberation -> Bello Betty and her Flag Flag fruit
He has his own version of the Miracle Doctor -> Emporio Ivankov
He has his own version of plurality of races -> Kuma and his race, Lindbergh/Mink, Morley/Giant, Hack/Fishman, and probably more.

It's just another side of the coin, but we're too early into the Revs to really make tangible comparisons.
 

DeadlyBeast

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2014
Messages
2,221
Reaction score
2,964
Gender
Male
Country
United States
Doesn't the fact we know that Enma could turn into a Supreme Grade blade if Zoro turns it black mean the grade is a status and not limited to just 12 swords? Seems like the sword grades are titles similar "Yonko" where there is a number + strength indicator that can change over time. Once Zoro turns Enma black they may update to 13 Supreme Grade blades instead.

I'll wager we are going to see a lot of these blades with the God's Knights and I already suspect that Shanks sword is one too. We may also get to end of the story without seeing all 12 which is fine since it leaves a bit of mystery to the story.
 

Critical mindset

Registered User
下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
90
Reaction score
43
Age
28
Country
Sweden
Well, I don't think she's the mother, but I do agree that it's clearly another metaphorical depiction of the "Drums of War", and Dragon has his own version of it.

I'm conflicted about Dragon and his motives, but he's the character that opposes the world government, so he's bound have a lot of the same motifs that we've already seen to be antagonistic towards the government:

He's the Dragon that opposes the Celestial Dragons.
He has his own version of the Liberating Sun God -> The Flame Emperor
He has his own version of the Drums of War/Liberation -> Bello Betty and her Flag Flag fruit
He has his own version of the Miracle Doctor -> Emporio Ivankov
He has his own version of plurality of races -> Kuma and his race, Lindbergh/Mink, Morley/Giant, Hack/Fishman, and probably more.

It's just another side of the coin, but we're too early into the Revs to really make tangible comparisons.
The sad fact about the revos is they don’t even know what they’re fighting ultimately. They didn’t know about Imu until Sabo told them which was sheer dumb luck he found out about (it). Dragon only made the revos in response to Ohara, but that just shows he reacts to perceived injustices but he doesn’t have access to any real information, it’s his opinion that Ohara event was wrong but ultimately he doesn’t know anything about the void century or ancient weapons to form a knowledgeable opinion.

Doflamingo is the real opposition to the WG. The fact that he knows about IM and even manipulating (it) puts him on another playing field to the revos. Doflamingo also opposes the celestial dragons so he has the same overarching goal as the revos, but aim to get to them through more clever and scheming means.

The revos are just failed version of Doflamingo pirates
 

Zmsp

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
959
Reaction score
1,140
Gender
Male
Country
Portugal
Doesn't the fact we know that Enma could turn into a Supreme Grade blade if Zoro turns it black mean the grade is a status and not limited to just 12 swords?
I think you're mixing things up: It was mentioned that Enma was not yet a Black Blade, while being an Excellent/Good Grade Blade (I've seen both terms).

Shusui is both an Excellent/Good Grade and a Black Blade, and that's one of the reasons I mentioned for them to be different concepts, at least with the information we currently have. The logical conclusion is that being a Black Blade is not the same as being a Supreme Grade Blade.

The revos are just failed version of Doflamingo pirates
The way I see it, the Doflamingo Pirates are a small scale/failed version of the World Government structure.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Once Zoro turns Enma black they may update to 13 Supreme Grade blades instead.
I'm open to this possibility, and I mentioned how the parallels between the sword hierarchy and the political structure within One Piece has an odd number.

I've yet to find anything that really resonates with this except for that disparity in numbers, so any further reveals could either make this theory a bit more or a bit less probable.
 

DeadlyBeast

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2014
Messages
2,221
Reaction score
2,964
Gender
Male
Country
United States
I think you're mixing things up: It was mentioned that Enma was not yet a Black Blade, while being an Excellent/Good Grade Blade (I've seen both terms).

Shusui is both an Excellent/Good Grade and a Black Blade, and that's one of the reasons I mentioned for them to be different concepts, at least with the information we currently have. The logical conclusion is that being a Black Blade is not the same as being a Supreme Grade Blade.


I'm open to this possibility, and I mentioned how the parallels between the sword hierarchy and the political structure within One Piece has an odd number.

I've yet to find anything that really resonates with this except for that disparity in numbers, so any further reveals could either make this theory a bit more or a bit less probable.
Ah yeah I didn't mean to imply that being a black blade makes a sword a Supreme Grade blade.

My understanding/current reading of ch955 is that turning a blade black has the possibility (not guarantee) of increasing a swords grade (seems up to the next level). Based on this it could be the case that you start with a 50 Skillful Grade Sword like Yubashiri (I know the sword is destroyed just using it as example) and turn it black to potentially go up a grade, in this example to a 21 Great Grade blade level. In the case of Enma, turning black may get it reclassified from 21 to 12 level grade was my understanding.

Shusui might have been a lower grade to start and made it to 21 grade level by being blackened. To me there is no reason to think grade, which indicates level of quality would limit the number of swords that can be in that grade, unless a specific limited resource is needed to make them that level of quality, which the story has so far not indicated.

At the end of the day they may be needed in the way you described but the possibility of Enma getting to evolve might be a necessary plot point e.g. WG destroys one of the 12 great swords to make its use against them as a key impossible. Maybe they can act as keys purely for their level of quality since other swords would break and that's all there is to it.
 

Zmsp

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
959
Reaction score
1,140
Gender
Male
Country
Portugal
To me there is no reason to think grade, which indicates level of quality would limit the number of swords that can be in that grade, unless a specific limited resource is needed to make them that level of quality, which the story has so far not indicated.
I get your point, but I was trying to elaborate on your initial premise:

Doesn't the fact we know that Enma could turn into a Supreme Grade blade if Zoro turns it black mean the grade is a status and not limited to just 12 swords?
The only factual, or narrative driven statement, was that Enma is not yet a Black Blade, and could be made into one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was never mentioned that it would become a Supreme Grade Blade by becoming a Black Blade, so that's an interpretation (and a valid one, don't get me wrong) of what that upgrade would mean. We have very little to work with when it comes to the meaning of all this, but we don't know if a blade can go up in "grade" by any process other than the original crafting.

It's a bit of a tangent regarding the theory, and I wouldn't go out of my way to defend a particular view on the matter, but I had to mention it.
 

DeadlyBeast

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2014
Messages
2,221
Reaction score
2,964
Gender
Male
Country
United States
I get your point, but I was trying to elaborate on your initial premise:



The only factual, or narrative driven statement, was that Enma is not yet a Black Blade, and could be made into one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was never mentioned that it would become a Supreme Grade Blade by becoming a Black Blade, so that's an interpretation (and a valid one, don't get me wrong) of what that upgrade would mean. We have very little to work with when it comes to the meaning of all this, but we don't know if a blade can go up in "grade" by any process other than the original crafting.

It's a bit of a tangent regarding the theory, and I wouldn't go out of my way to defend a particular view on the matter, but I had to mention it.
It could definitely be open to interpretation, especially since I don't speak/read japanese, but my understanding is the word that is used for grade/rank (iretsu) i.e. 12, 21, 50 grade blades which is also the same word that Sukiyaki used when saying Zoro turning Enma black may increase it's grade/rank (iretsu). Plus these rankings are real life ones from the book Kaiho Kenjaku which purely focuses on quality and nothing more.
 

Zmsp

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
959
Reaction score
1,140
Gender
Male
Country
Portugal
Plus these rankings are real life ones from the book Kaiho Kenjaku which purely focuses on quality and nothing more.
It would make some sense, and I'm still looking for a compelling reason for the 20 kings/21 blades disparity.

I think everything else fits too perfectly in terms of numbers for it to be a coincidence, so what you said about Shusui possibly being one of the 50 good grade blades that ascended by becoming a black blade is actually pretty interesting, and could explain that disparity in terms of metaphorical comparisons.

All in all, it doesn't really change much in terms of the heirloom theory, but you've given me something interesting to think about! Thank you!
 

Fox666

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
6,787
Reaction score
4,457
Country
Galactic Empire
You might be onto something here . Luffy’s mom might be the woman in RA that can rally people and make them stronger using her df power. Clear metaphor for “drum of liberation”
Bello Betty would have gotten pregnant at age 14
 

Sachsenhesse

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
2,787
Reaction score
3,467
Age
37
Gender
Male
Country
Germany
I think thats too much interpretation. The gradesystem was probably there to give Zoro room(excuses)!to get stronger besides training.

Now with haki its a little a bit less needed. So i guess we will never really get a full disclosure of the blades. Besides SBS maybe.
 

Zmsp

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
959
Reaction score
1,140
Gender
Male
Country
Portugal
I think thats too much interpretation.
Fair point, but I guess any theory requires a fair amount of subjective interpretation, otherwise it'd just be an analysis/discussion.

Not finding the theory compelling is one thing, and I'd be more than happy to elaborate on any part of it, or entertain different interpretations, but everything you said beyond that quote is quite the head-scratcher.

Graded Blades just had a resurgence in Wano, almost 1000 chapters after their introduction, and their mystery even had a dedicated segment in Road to Laughtale, where most of the relevant plot points were summarized before we entered the final saga.
 

DeadlyBeast

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2014
Messages
2,221
Reaction score
2,964
Gender
Male
Country
United States
It would make some sense, and I'm still looking for a compelling reason for the 20 kings/21 blades disparity.

I think everything else fits too perfectly in terms of numbers for it to be a coincidence, so what you said about Shusui possibly being one of the 50 good grade blades that ascended by becoming a black blade is actually pretty interesting, and could explain that disparity in terms of metaphorical comparisons.

All in all, it doesn't really change much in terms of the heirloom theory, but you've given me something interesting to think about! Thank you!
The numbers are also actually another interesting facet of this whole thing. The real life book (published 1797) had 12 Supreme Grade, 21 Great Grade, etc too. So Oda actually didn't come up with the numbers himself either. Now what I find interesting is in a later edition of this book the numbers change and a fully revised version of a different book of same ranks also had different numbers. When you look across all the books the numbers for Supreme Grade change from 12 to 15, while interestingly the number of Great Grade stayed at 21. Personally I think we may see multiple new Supreme Grade swords added to the list in the manga too (maybe Zoro upgrades to Nidai Kitetsu and then turns all 3 of his swords black upping each of their ranks). Maybe this will help with your numerology.
 

Fox666

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
6,787
Reaction score
4,457
Country
Galactic Empire
and why Roger couldn't get the One Piece
That was actually explained in the manga, the "time wasn't right"

And this is said a few pages after we learn of Shirahoshi being born only a few years in the future, so.....
 
Last edited:

Zmsp

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
959
Reaction score
1,140
Gender
Male
Country
Portugal
That was actually explained in the manga, the "time wasn't right"

And this is said a few pages after we learn of Shirahoshi being born only a few years in the future, so.....
I did mention both of those segments.

That’s the whole prophetic side of this story, and why we’ve been told several times that it all comes together in the current day and age. If this is the case, the next logical step is to find an event that really ties it all together, and look for arguments that validate this statement. We have two characters that not only match this criteria, but have narrative backing by the prophecy made by the Sea Kings: Shirahoshi and Luffy.
The Sea Kings also mention two sovereigns, right?
Shirahoshi is important, that's a given, but wasn't it Luffy and his wanted poster that made Shanks declare the time was right?
 

Fox666

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
6,787
Reaction score
4,457
Country
Galactic Empire
The Sea Kings also mention two sovereigns, right?
Shirahoshi is important, that's a given, but wasn't it Luffy and his wanted poster that made Shanks declare the time was right?
Recent chapters have already shed a light on that

The other sovereign is Vivi
 

Zmsp

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
959
Reaction score
1,140
Gender
Male
Country
Portugal
The other sovereign is Vivi
Well, I can't say it's unfathomable, and I'm always up to hear some different interpretations, so please do elaborate.

Regardless of that, you seem to agree that the conditions had not been met 20 years ago, so you'd find Shanks looking at the Nika poster as unrelated to his decision that it was finally time to move? Vivi had no part to play in that segment.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Maybe this will help with your numerology.
To be honest, I've given this some thought and I think the heirloom/keys part of the theory is still fairly solid. It connects a few different plot points in a way that I find satisfying enough, doesn't require a lot of mental gymnastics, has smaller scale versions of it inside the story, and a decent enough external source of inspiration that I found almost instantly once I looked at it from that perspective.

The numerology could go a different number of ways, and I don't think it would really subtract that much from everything else. I'm saying this because the only "keys" that matter are the ones that were used 800 years ago, so adding new ones wouldn't change much. In fact, I think I was probably wrong on the numerology from the get go: if I'm assuming that we had an internal conflict between the original 12, it wouldn't make much sense for all 12 of them to be necessary for unlocking a treasure left behind by the losing side of that war.
 

Rmstorm

Registered User
上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
376
Reaction score
278
Age
27
Country
Phantom Lord
Recent chapters have already shed a light on that

The other sovereign is Vivi
The second Seovereign is Luffy. Oda had put it right there in plain sight.

Read chapter 626 -the Fishmen Island legend that Queen Otihme states that a person be born with the power to guide shirahoshi, which is Luffy power to make allies.



https://tcbscans.com/chapters/1079/one-piece-chapter-626-review-1685612419

Chapter 647 reveals Luffy is that person from who othime and the fishmen island legend was talking about



Chapter 649- Neptune Talks about somebody joyboy 800 years ago saying someone(Luufy) wil fulfill his promise in the future.
https://tcbscans.com/chapters/1102/one-piece-chapter-649-review-1685612419

Chapter 654- The Whales are happy after Shirahoshi and Luffy have met, just as the seakings said would happen in Roger's flashback.
https://tcbscans.com/chapters/1108/one-piece-chapter-654-review-1685612419


Chapter 968- The Seakings talk about the two sovereigns being born in the future meeting and the whales being happy


https://tcbscans.com/chapters/113/one-piece-chapter-968-review-1685612418
 
Last edited:

hokageji

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
4,919
Reaction score
3,709
Gender
Male
Country
United States
didn't read all the posts but the one above is interesting 10 to be born, 15 to grow. That'll mean 25 years... But how is that Luffy? shouldn't that person by 15 years old? or is me missing my morning joe affecting my thinking.
 
Top