You think Joker actually squared against Luffy in Gear 4th like he did Gear 2nd? From the moment he realises his attacks aren't going to work, he's using his strings as barriers to seperate himself and Luffy. The name of the attack is "White shield", pretty much implies he's on the defensive.
20 minutes into the fight, where is Luffy most of the time? In the air.
Maybe if you tried to questioning why Joker is situated on the ground since we last saw him while Luffy is in the air, it's clear he's not fighting Luffy the same way he did while in Gear 2nd. He's making sure to deter Luffy and keep him in the air in order to make sure he's not met with attacks he can't fend off.
He explicit points out that Luffy can't sustain that form for too long pretty much confirming that he planned his stalling in order for Luffy's haki and physical wellbeing to detoriate to the point thta Gear 4th wouldn't be able to remain active.
You are the one who is not being specific here. Gear 2 was not useless rather it was not enough to beat Doflamingo.
DD can wipe the floor with luffy? Plz give me actual facts and not your thoughts. Luffy was not in best shape either so how can you possibly know that is what is going to happen? Your choice of words are rather not very valid. Even admirals will have trouble beating Luffy.
Doflamingo was actually strategically retreating and not tanking. He used his awakening to keep Luffy at bay and was waiting for Luffy's haki to run out.
Luffy's DF is one of the worst in OP so he have to find creative ways to make it stronger. You said it's minus for luffy but not plus for doffy? WTF? Gear 4's time limit was the minus bit for luffy and that was the plus bit for doffy.
if you read the post, you would have seen where is said: "you cant judge a persons strentgh without looking at weakness, and if a weakness is ultra specific, then thats on luffy, notice how doflamingo has none of these problems, or akainu, or whitebeard or sengoku.... the guys who fight within the limits of their own strength.". Again, gear 4th isnt at all luffy's actual strength, its a move that allows him to temporarily break past his limits, if this move has a specific drawback, and that can be exploited, then the move becomes useless, its like putting all of your life energy into an attack, but the attack is easy to dodge, you cant measure the move's raw power without taking the disadvantages into consideration. your mistake here is taking everything from face value.
If that was true, Law wouldn't have needed Luffy to dispatch of Joker.
The stalling is pretty much a fact, we saw how Joker couldn't do much with physical attacks and he repetitively used his "white shield" to deter Luffy.
If you read my post..you wouldve seen where i said "DEFENSE is just as relevant in a battle as attack. if after all the handicaps and sacrificed lifespan, doflamingo can still take all those hits, and begin to demolish an army("i dont need any 'stamina' for you fodder), whereas, luffy has to take a nice 10 minute rest, its pretty obvious who the monster here is. "
i dont know why you have to undermine the concept of "defense", if luffy's attacks dont work, and he's fighting within a time limit, and he runs out of time, than thats simply luffy's weakness, he wont beat any admirals with that, you know, the guys who fight for 10 days. so none of you tell me about admirals having a hard time against luffy. they have yonko to deal with.
ive noticed that you guys havent refuted much of the points i made, and instead tried to attack a select few....so lets just call this debate a day.
---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 PM ----------
You think Joker actually squared against Luffy in Gear 4th like he did Gear 2nd? From the moment he realises his attacks aren't going to work, he's using his strings as barriers to seperate himself and Luffy. The name of the attack is "White shield", pretty much implies he's on the defensive.
20 minutes into the fight, where is Luffy most of the time? In the air.
Maybe if you tried to questioning why Joker is situated on the ground since we last saw him while Luffy is in the air, it's clear he's not fighting Luffy the same way he did while in Gear 2nd. He's making sure to deter Luffy and keep him in the air in order to make sure he's not met with attacks he can't fend off.
He explicit points out that Luffy can't sustain that form for too long pretty much confirming that he planned his stalling in order for Luffy's haki and physical wellbeing to detoriate to the point thta Gear 4th wouldn't be able to remain active.
If you read my post..you wouldve seen where i said "DEFENSE is just as relevant in a battle as attack. if after all the handicaps and sacrificed lifespan, doflamingo can still take all those hits, and begin to demolish an army("i dont need any 'stamina' for you fodder), whereas, luffy has to take a nice 10 minute rest, its pretty obvious who the monster here is. "
It's nothing to do with undermining, the fact is Joker stopped fighting with Luffy in Gear 4th the same way he fought in Gear 2nd.
Also, you're giving Joker too much credit; he only loses stamina from physical damage, not from controlling his abilities whereas Luffy is damaged from:
Both using Gear 4th.
And recieving damage.
Luffy's ability has much more of a handicap.
Logically, it's the ability that puts one at a disadvantage and still has the individual dominating an opponent free of disadvantages the monster.
Blackbeard's ability renders the ability to dodge attacks impossible and increases the intensity of attacks received; it's plain logical to credit Blackbeard as the monster in the case where he's taking a barrage of attacks and still coming out on top.
How does someone whose ability doesn't drain stamina make that individual the monster? You have it backwards.
To go from extremely aggressive (like he was against Gear 2nd) to totally on the defensive pretty much says it all.
Joker also wasn't taking all those hits, he simply kept his distance by barricading himself in strings; clearly, if he were as strong as Luffy, he'd have faced him head on like he did in Gear 2nd, and that's the point.
It's more like Luffy's attacks were too effective.
When he tried to kick with Athlete thread, it simply rebounded off Luffy's body; Joker's hand to hand or melee based attacks were rendered obsolete and useless.
Which is why he resorted to a defensive tactic which was somewhat cowardly or at least a tactic that implies he's both physically and and speed-wise inferior.
Did you miss the part where he couldn't even physically react to Luffy's speed?
The last time Joker completely failed to react to an attack whilst fully aware of his opponent was when he got frozen by Kuzan.
The concept of defence is not lost at all; what he was doing was pretty much cowardly; while Luffy was in Gear 2nd, Joker faced him head on and dodged his attack when he could which showed he was pretty confident in his physical abilities, it's the fact that he can't replicate that confidence while Luffy is in Gear 4th which shows he was strength and speed wise inferior.
And if Kaido was keeping his distance from Luffy for 20 minutes until he depleted his Haki-reserves and stamina, doesn't that make Kaido in other words inferior to Gear 4th? Yes it does. One would expect Kaido to meet Gear 4th head on, so it simply is cowardly and indicative of his inferiorioty against Luffy in Gear 4th.
He wasn't tanking Gear 4 attacks, he was evading them. staying away from them by using his Shield attack and using his strings to deter Luffy. Any sort of tactic in a fight that makes it imperative to not face the opponent head on simply shows inferiority no matter who they are.
You think Joker actually squared against Luffy in Gear 4th like he did Gear 2nd? From the moment he realises his attacks aren't going to work, he's using his strings as barriers to seperate himself and Luffy. The name of the attack is "White shield", pretty much implies he's on the defensive.
20 minutes into the fight, where is Luffy most of the time? In the air.
Maybe if you tried to questioning why Joker is situated on the ground since we last saw him while Luffy is in the air, it's clear he's not fighting Luffy the same way he did while in Gear 2nd. He's making sure to deter Luffy and keep him in the air in order to make sure he's not met with attacks he can't fend off.
He explicit points out that Luffy can't sustain that form for too long pretty much confirming that he planned his stalling in order for Luffy's haki and physical wellbeing to detoriate to the point thta Gear 4th wouldn't be able to remain active.
Ok, lets assume you are correct. What difference does it make? Doflamingo still pretty much overwhelmed luffy in his gear 2/3 stage and gear 4 does not last enough for him to beat doflamingo. So even if you are correct about this, it does not make a difference in the least, doflamingo is still the superior one with a good margin.
Ok, lets assume you are correct. What difference does it make? Doflamingo still pretty much overwhelmed luffy in his gear 2/3 stage and gear 4 does not last enough for him to beat doflamingo. So even if you are correct about this, it does not make a difference in the least, doflamingo is still the superior one with a good margin.
Joker was never outrightly dominant in every 1 on 1 situation.
We saw what happened between Sabo and Burgess when they clashed Armament haki, what was the result of their clashes?
Sabo coming out on top proving he had the superior haki.
When Luffy's haki clashed with Chinjao, what was the result? Clear distinguishment, Luffy's Armament haki proved superior as was the case when Garp and Chinjao clashed.
However, whenever Luffy and Joker clash haki, it's always a stalemate.
Multiple scenes where Luffy and Joker clashed showing stalemate after stalemate and this is in Gear 2nd fiorm; so Joker was never outrightly if even clearly superior, they were pretty much evenly matched.
Joker was never outrightly dominant in every 1 on 1 situation.
We saw what happened between Sabo and Burgess when they clashed Armament haki, what was the result of their clashes?
Sabo coming out on top proving he had the superior haki.
When Luffy's haki clashed with Chinjao, what was the result? Clear distinguishment, Luffy's Armament haki proved superior as was the case when Garp and Chinjao clashed.
However, whenever Luffy and Joker clash haki, it's always a stalemate.
Multiple scenes where Luffy and Joker clashed showing stalemate after stalemate and this is in Gear 2nd fiorm; so Joker was never outrightly if even clearly superior, they were pretty much evenly matched.
Those specific moments don't change my point. I am not saying there isn't a single moment through their confrontations at which luffy didn't match doflamingo. My point is that looking at the fights as a whole doflamingo was the one who had the clear upperhand. That doflamingo always ended being the one pushing luffy back. A single frame where they tied in a clash or a moment of luffy appearing to be superior do not affect my point in the slightest.
what me and kkck is trying to say is that in a pure 1v1 situation, while luffy does put up a very good fight, and forces doflamingo to fight a certain way, there still remains the fact in every scenario, he loses, and this is considering the sacrifices that luffy has to make to 'exponentially increase his base speed and power' which still wasnt enough in the actual fight.
in a unhindered pure 1v1 environment, the fight wouldnt have even been that close.
Those specific moments don't change my point. I am not saying there isn't a single moment through their confrontations at which luffy didn't match doflamingo. My point is that looking at the fights as a whole doflamingo was the one who had the clear upperhand. That doflamingo always ended being the one pushing luffy back. A single frame where they tied in a clash or a moment of luffy appearing to be superior do not affect my point in the slightest.
How does Joker as a whole have the upperhand if he could never get his way against Luffy in Gear 2nd and less so with Gear 4th? The facts are:
Joker never has the upperhand anymore than Luffy does in exchanges.
They constantly stalemate in haki clashes.
Joker could never kill Law simply because Luffy stopped him.
And Joker stopped fighting Luffy head-on as soon as Gear 4th was activated.
It's also not a single frame where Joker was pushed back by Luffy, there are multiple panels as is the case vice-versa too. Your reasoning has progressively devolved into nothing more than a bias towards Joker; you can't judge anything holistically without looking at:
All the individual panels.
If individual panels don't consistently show Joker have the upperhand, then it's illogical to conclude that Joker had the upperhand when looking at things holistically because that's a contradictory conclusion in light of the evidence.
Ultimately, if Joker was superior to Luffy in Gear 2nd, Law should be dead. Ever since Luffy got in his way, there are multiple instances that prove Joker couldn't have his way:
When Joker tried to kill Law, he got stalemated; what's the excuse here for Joker's failure to kill Law? Superiority over Luffy?
Or, after Trebol was defeated, he still attempted to go after, Luffy. What's the cause of his failure again? Superiority?
Why did Trebol tell Joker he can kill Law only after Luffy was apprehended in his snot? Is it because it was obvious that Luffy was not proving a formidable challenge to Joker?
Like I've said before, it's not just 1 panel that Luffy proved to be equal to Joker, it's multiple. If not, Luffy should never have been able to stop Joker from killing Law. It would be like saying that Rayleigh was not equally as powerful as Kizaru when he stopped him from killing the SHs.
what me and kkck is trying to say is that in a pure 1v1 situation, while luffy does put up a very good fight, and forces doflamingo to fight a certain way, there still remains the fact in every scenario, he loses, and this is considering the sacrifices that luffy has to make to 'exponentially increase his base speed and power' which still wasnt enough in the actual fight.
in a unhindered pure 1v1 environment, the fight wouldnt have even been that close.
You are saying these statements without any hardcore facts when Hannibal Psyche clearly gave you many facts from the manga. When Luffy confronted Lucci for the first time (in Water 7 inside the Mansion) he got defeated in 1 hit. Yes 1 hit. Lucci is stronger right? If the story stopped right there then people would clearly say that Lucci overwhelmed Luffy by miles but is that true? No. You know what happened so there is no need for me to clarify anything.
In this arc Luffy was not even overwhelmed by Doflamingo like how Lucci overwhelmed him. Lucci might have been stronger than Luffy but he won in the end. So that could have happened if he fought Doflamingo. You never know.
You are saying these statements without any hardcore facts when Hannibal Psyche clearly gave you many facts from the manga. When Luffy confronted Lucci for the first time (in Water 7 inside the Mansion) he got defeated in 1 hit. Yes 1 hit. Lucci is stronger right? If the story stopped right there then people would clearly say that Lucci overwhelmed Luffy by miles but is that true? No. You know what happened so there is no need for me to clarify anything.
In this arc Luffy was not even overwhelmed by Doflamingo like how Lucci overwhelmed him. Lucci might have been stronger than Luffy but he won in the end. So that could have happened if he fought Doflamingo. You never know.
yes.....lucci was overwhelmingly more powerful and by miles at that. gear second, which he developed after, allowed him to make up some distance, and sheer willpower (not luffy's physical strength) won him the fight, or at least, knocked out lucci since luffy couldnt move either, lucci might have been in better physical shape after the last hit.
i dont see how it refutes the points that i made, and "luffy needed to take a nice 10 minute rest" is very much evidence from the manga, and not an assumption.
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argh this format is hard to use...is there a tutorial for the new one?
what me and kkck is trying to say is that in a pure 1v1 situation, while luffy does put up a very good fight, and forces doflamingo to fight a certain way, there still remains the fact in every scenario, he loses, and this is considering the sacrifices that luffy has to make to 'exponentially increase his base speed and power' which still wasnt enough in the actual fight.
in a unhindered pure 1v1 environment, the fight wouldnt have even been that close.
Just to know if this is a Joker-bias or not, is this analysis only applicable when Luffy is fighting Joker? Or are you applying this to all of Luffy's fight? If so, then your analysis should simply state that Luffy is weaker than all his opponents since he fought them with the Rubber ability.
Then I guess according to your analysis, Kizaru is weak because he's the user of the Pika Pika no Mi since it enhances his speed. That'd also include Crocodile, Rob Lucci, Moriah, Enel; hell, the whole lot of them.
Only issue with this warped view is that Devil fruits have always been a part of One Piece and they dictate how one fights. So, regardless of the pros and cons, the stronger individual wins.
It's somewhat convenient to forget that Joker's ability has no handicap, he even gets treatment from his abilities and it doesn't cost him any stamina to use Birdcage or control thousands of people, yet he's the one with the handicap? I think you have it backwards because Luffy's drains his stamina not just from accumulating damage, but from actually using his Gears.
Hell, Blackbeard's ability amplifies the damage he receives and makes it nigh impossible to defend, are you going to actually determine Blackbeard as weak for defeating a strong opponent with such a downside?
Every ability has its pros and cons, but no one automatically becomes strong just because they have an ability. Usopp wouldn't become the strongest pirate in the world even if he gained the Guras Gura no Mi.
You are saying these statements without any hardcore facts when Hannibal Psyche clearly gave you many facts from the manga. When Luffy confronted Lucci for the first time (in Water 7 inside the Mansion) he got defeated in 1 hit. Yes 1 hit. Lucci is stronger right? If the story stopped right there then people would clearly say that Lucci overwhelmed Luffy by miles but is that true? No. You know what happened so there is no need for me to clarify anything.
In this arc Luffy was not even overwhelmed by Doflamingo like how Lucci overwhelmed him. Lucci might have been stronger than Luffy but he won in the end. So that could have happened if he fought Doflamingo. You never know.
I remember this fight, the reason why Luffy and co. were sorely outclassed was because they lacked resolve from not knowing why Robin left. As soon as they understood the situation, they gained resolve and were ultimately able to fight with their full power.
If we're going to start determining fruits as making one weak, we might as well just consider all devil fruit users in One Piece weak and forget about haki.
How does Joker as a whole have the upperhand if he could never get his way against Luffy in Gear 2nd and less so with Gear 4th? The facts are:
Joker never has the upperhand anymore than Luffy does in exchanges.
They constantly stalemate in haki clashes.
Joker could never kill Law simply because Luffy stopped him.
And Joker stopped fighting Luffy head-on as soon as Gear 4th was activated.
It's also not a single frame where Joker was pushed back by Luffy, there are multiple panels as is the case vice-versa too. Your reasoning has progressively devolved into nothing more than a bias towards Joker; you can't judge anything holistically without looking at:
All the individual panels.
If individual panels don't consistently show Joker have the upperhand, then it's illogical to conclude that Joker had the upperhand when looking at things holistically because that's a contradictory conclusion in light of the evidence.
Ultimately, if Joker was superior to Luffy in Gear 2nd, Law should be dead. Ever since Luffy got in his way, there are multiple instances that prove Joker couldn't have his way:
When Joker tried to kill Law, he got stalemated; what's the excuse here for Joker's failure to kill Law? Superiority over Luffy?
Or, after Trebol was defeated, he still attempted to go after, Luffy. What's the cause of his failure again? Superiority?
Why did Trebol tell Joker he can kill Law only after Luffy was apprehended in his snot? Is it because it was obvious that Luffy was not proving a formidable challenge to Joker?
Like I've said before, it's not just 1 panel that Luffy proved to be equal to Joker, it's multiple. If not, Luffy should never have been able to stop Joker from killing Law. It would be like saying that Rayleigh was not equally as powerful as Kizaru when he stopped him from killing the SHs.
Joker did get his way with Gearv2/3 luffy. That is precisely the reason luffy resorted to gear 4. The very chapter where luffy mentions gear 4 for the first time the manga makes the point that gear 2 doesn't really tickle doflamingo and gear 3 can't hit him. Which is extremely relevant to everything that happened before as well. Luffy did land a few hits with gear two however the implication from this chapter is that luffy one way or the other simply was not doing to win with just that. In turn every time doflamingo landed a hit luffy without a shred of a doubt felt it. Hence, gear 4.
I have never said that luffy wasn't stronger than doflamingo with gear 4. My point there however is that luffy only temporarily surpasses doflamingo with this. And the manga has shown that the boost is too temporary to allow luffy to win on his own. Luffy won against doflamingo not with his own strength but because of the help he got. The second time luffy used gear 4 he had just enough juice for 1 attack, after that luffy fell unconscious. He was also unconscious after his first use of gear 4 as well which didn't last enough to beat doflamingo. And this is after all the damage doflamingo had taken from his previous fights which I maintain are important specially considering the insanely small margin by which luffy barely won. Heck, considering luffy was unconscious after this we can make the point that rather than a win it was still a tie at best. And only because luffy was surrounded by his allies who captured the unconscious doflamingo.
Really, when? No panel shows Joker having his way in the 1 on 1, are you saying that Luffy had an imaginary ally when he was trying to crush Law's head prior to the CoC clash?
And If I remember, the trigger to Gear 4th was this...Joker telling Luffy people would start dying in 30 minutes which is when Luffy decided it was time to pull out his trump card.
I have never said that luffy wasn't stronger than doflamingo with gear 4. My point there however is that luffy only temporarily surpasses doflamingo with this.
Just to know if this is a Joker-bias or not, is this analysis only applicable when Luffy is fighting Joker? Or are you applying this to all of Luffy's fight? If so, then your analysis should simply state that Luffy is weaker than all his opponents since he fought them with the Rubber ability.
Then I guess according to your analysis, Kizaru is weak because he's the user of the Pika Pika no Mi since it enhances his speed. That'd also include Crocodile, Rob Lucci, Moriah, Enel; hell, the whole lot of them.
Only issue with this warped view is that Devil fruits have always been a part of One Piece and they dictate how one fights. So, regardless of the pros and cons, the stronger individual wins.
It's somewhat convenient to forget that Joker's ability has no handicap, he even gets treatment from his abilities and it doesn't cost him any stamina to use Birdcage or control thousands of people, yet he's the one with the handicap? I think you have it backwards because Luffy's drains his stamina not just from accumulating damage, but from actually using his Gears.
Hell, Blackbeard's ability amplifies the damage he receives and makes it nigh impossible to defend, are you going to actually determine Blackbeard as weak for defeating a strong opponent with such a downside?
Every ability has its pros and cons, but no one automatically becomes strong just because they have an ability. Usopp wouldn't become the strongest pirate in the world even if he gained the Guras Gura no Mi.
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I remember this fight, the reason why Luffy and co. were sorely outclassed was because they lacked resolve from not knowing why Robin left. As soon as they understood the situation, they gained resolve and were ultimately able to fight with their full power.
If we're going to start determining fruits as making one weak, we might as well just consider all devil fruit users in One Piece weak and forget about haki.
No mate, that was never what i implied, the point is that you tried to undermine the obvious weaknesses and that those factors were enough to dismiss gear 4th as inadequate for him to defeat doflamingo in a 1v1. if you read what i said...you would recall the statement: "you cant judge a persons strentgh without looking at weakness, and if a weakness is ultra specific, then thats on luffy, notice how doflamingo has none of these problems, or akainu, or whitebeard or sengoku.... the guys who fight within the limits of their own strength."
this is the third time ive said that statement.the aim of the MOVE 'gear 4th" is to surpass his 'limits'. this directly implies that this isnt his actual strength, but it is a TEMPORARY boost____Kizaru's light speed isnt temporary! the context in which he stated needing gear 4th for is when the monsters were way too powerful for his other gears to challenge him, but because of the sacrificed lifespan and weaknesses, its a last resort, if he used it in desperation to beat doffy, and it still failed to beat him (and doffy wasnt running, he was parying his attacks using his own) then it becomes FACT that:
luffy+gear 4th << doflamingo+ awakening+critical injuries
where i become even more skeptical is where we consider that gear 4th is a temporary increase of his 'limits' thus not at all his own strength. but rather a sacrifice he makes of his lifespan to get a temporary boost.
would you say that in HxH, that gon was stronger than Pitou?? and even if you would, you wouldnt have any argument if pitou had actually beat Gon, which was actullay the case here.
the empirical evidence of the 10 minute rest hits the final nail. luffy had already lost the fight at that point, if it was 1v1, then luffy wouldnt have had any chance of winning, not to say that he wouldnt put up a good fight, or that he couldnt corner doffy? just that there was no way he would win regardless, which makes doffy clearly superior
this is just one scenario, the other fights that luffy has gone through also have specific situations , so yes...
enel and lucci were stronger than luffy.
No mate, that was never what i implied, the point is that you tried to undermine the obvious weaknesses and that those factors were enough to dismiss gear 4th as inadequate for him to defeat doflamingo in a 1v1. if you read what i said...you would recall the statement: "you cant judge a persons strentgh without looking at weakness, and if a weakness is ultra specific, then thats on luffy, notice how doflamingo has none of these problems, or akainu, or whitebeard or sengoku.... the guys who fight within the limits of their own strength."
this is the third time ive said that statement.the aim of the MOVE 'gear 4th" is to surpass his 'limits'. this directly implies that this isnt his actual strength, but it is a TEMPORARY boost____Kizaru's light speed isnt temporary! the context in which he stated needing gear 4th for is when the monsters were way too powerful for his other gears to challenge him, but because of the sacrificed lifespan and weaknesses, its a last resort, if he used it in desperation to beat doffy, and it still failed to beat him (and doffy wasnt running, he was parying his attacks using his own) then it becomes FACT that:
luffy+gear 4th << doflamingo+ awakening+critical injuries
this is just one scenario, the other fights that luffy has gone through also have specific situations , so yes...
enel and lucci were stronger than luffy.
Lucci wasn't stronger, Enel wasn't stronger, we're not reading the same manga
Also no, Gear 4 doesn't surpass his limits or what not, just like with Gear 2/3 at the beginning, it is simply lack of mastery... Notice how he isn't suffering from any side effects from using Gear 2/3 now, why ? Because he mastered them
You guys just agree to not agree, because you're running in circles and just throwing the same arguments all again
So if Luffy uses his lifespan and push himself to the limits it's not his strength? It's cheating? Its his power!
Why put HxH in here? Gon can only use that power once in his lifetime but Luffy can use gear 4 many times. Gear 4th was never said to drain his life force btw it only drains haki. His mastery will only continue to increase. His lifepsan will only decrease if he use it excessively.
Really, when? No panel shows Joker having his way in the 1 on 1, are you saying that Luffy had an imaginary ally when he was trying to crush Law's head prior to the CoC clash?
And If I remember, the trigger to Gear 4th was this...Joker telling Luffy people would start dying in 30 minutes which is when Luffy decided it was time to pull out his trump card.
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And there's somewhat of a double standard here:
When Joker uses a whole city as strings, it's Joker's power.
All of luffy's confrontations with doflamingo prior to gear 4 ended with doflamingo having the upper hand. And we know luffy's gear 2/3 attacks were at no point in the battle causing harm even if they connected. The only one taking damage from the confrontations was luffy. Sure, luffy did land a few punches at best but the explicit implication is that they were not doing much.
I didn't say luffy had imaginary allies. My point about the help was about everything law did and the extent to which he was protected while he recovered his haki after using gear 4.
Ok, and what happened immediately before that image? Doflamingo makes the explicit point that gear 2 barely tickles him, gear 3 won't hit him and then beats luffy to the ground. After that doflamingo gloats and luffy uses gear 4.
just consider the sheer difference in power between gear 2/3 and gear 4. Gear 4 actually broke through doflamingo's string defense, something which even gear 3 did not do. Doflamingo's fight with gear 4 luffy lastest between 30 minutes and an hour depending on the translation. That is time during which doflamingo took a consistent beating from gear 4. And even that did not defeat him. If we consider the sheer difference in power between gear 2/3 and gear 4 evidenced by their ability to break doflamingo's string wall it is quite clear that the difference is overwhelming. Luffy did hit doflamingo with gear 2. I am not debating that. However you can list every single time luffy hit or otherwise clash with doflamingo and the answer is the same: It didn't affect doflamingo. Take this instance your brought up earlier: http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-783-page-7.html
You are suggesting that would be evidence that luffy was holding his own in gear 2. However the situation there is simple, doflamingo wasn't taking much damage from that anyways. Luffy could have continued that for hours and hours and doflamingo would still not take much damage. Simply because later on we find out for a fact that doflamingo simply doesn't take much damage from gear 2. And to boot even that ends with this: http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-783-page-9.html
Luffy puts up his hake defense and doflamingo bypasses it with his own strings. Every single confrontation between luffy and doflamingo ends with luffy being pushed back. No amount of gear 2 punches will ever defeat doflamingo. Maybe if doflamingo intentionally takes gear 2 punches as he unintentionally took gear 4 punches he'd go down after many hours of luffy going at it, assuming of course luffy does not get tired before that.
Ok, and what happened immediately before that image? Doflamingo makes the explicit point that gear 2 barely tickles him, gear 3 won't hit him and then beats luffy to the ground. After that doflamingo gloats and luffy uses gear 4.
All of luffy's confrontations with doflamingo prior to gear 4 ended with doflamingo having the upper hand. And we know luffy's gear 2/3 attacks were at no point in the battle causing harm even if they connected. The only one taking damage from the confrontations was luffy. Sure, luffy did land a few punches at best but the explicit implication is that they were not doing much.
Prior to Joker saying that attack tickled, what about this looks like tickling?
Clearly, Luffy's attack are not tickles. However, you're missing the context of that attack that Joker called a tickle. There's no way that an "Eagle" attack is weaker than a normal haki powered punch from Luffy.
What you're not realizing in that scene is that there's a reason why Joker is called Heavenly Demon, it's because in the air, he's superior to his opponents as he himself has implied.
Also, the fact that he's so adept at moving in the air and isolating himself in mid-air gives him the ability to mitigate the power of blows which is why that attack is referred to as weak. If he was dealt that blow while on the ground, we know he'd be coughing up blood for sure if Red Hawk or Luffy's normal punches could result in that as previously shown.
If all Luffy's punches were "tickles", then it contradicts every reaction that Joker has expressed thus far; he didn't just suddenly turn into Kaido nor did Luffy just suddenly become weak, it's because Joker is in the air where he's most advantaged.
Doflamingo's fight with gear 4 luffy lastest between 30 minutes and an hour depending on the translation. That is time during which doflamingo took a consistent beating from gear 4.
It's 20 minutes regardless of translation, they all say the same thing. Joker wasn't taking a constant beating, he was deterring Luffy by keeping him in the air with his strings. He didn't want to fight Luffy head on because of the 5 attacks he received where he learnt that his physical attacks were just going to get rebounded off his body.
Did you forget what Joker said? He told Luffy how long does he think he can keep that form up for.
Why did he even bring up the fact that Luffy couldn't stay in that form for too long? Clearly, he aimed to capitalize on the fact that if he stalled, Luffy would eventually be unable to sustain Gear 4th which would be the only chance he'd have of defeating Luffy head on. He had no intentions of taking a beat down..
Hell, if Luffy was so certain that he could defeat Joker with 1 more attack after Leo Bazooka; it means that if Luffy had been able to use Leo Bazooka and King Kong Gun before the 20 minutes ended which was as a result of Joker stalling, Joker would have been defeated. So, Joker really was running away from Luffy at that point, he couldn't match him head on or he'd have fought Luffy the exact same way he did while Luffy was in Gear 2nd.
Luffy did hit doflamingo with gear 2. I am not debating that. However you can list every single time luffy hit or otherwise clash with doflamingo and the answer is the same: It didn't affect doflamingo. Take this instance your brought up earlier: http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-783-page-7.html
You are suggesting that would be evidence that luffy was holding his own in gear 2. However the situation there is simple, doflamingo wasn't taking much damage from that anyways. Luffy could have continued that for hours and hours and doflamingo would still not take much damage. Simply because later on we find out for a fact that doflamingo simply doesn't take much damage from gear 2. And to boot even that ends with this: http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-783-page-9.html
Luffy puts up his hake defense and doflamingo bypasses it with his own strings. Every single confrontation between luffy and doflamingo ends with luffy being pushed back. No amount of gear 2 punches will ever defeat doflamingo. Maybe if doflamingo intentionally takes gear 2 punches as he unintentionally took gear 4 punches he'd go down after many hours of luffy going at it, assuming of course luffy does not get tired before that.
You do know that the panel you showed Luffy beating up Joker, Joker hadn't even done damage to Luffy in 1on1 yet? The only instance before chapter 782 that Joker had the upper hand was in 2on1 as was also the same for Luffy.
Even this Athelete attack, you're not looking at it within the context simply to make out Joker as superior:
Luffy is in the air and his Bazooka attack misses.
Joker evaded and is more advantaged to counter attack especially with Luffy in the air.
Luffy realizes that he didn't get Joker while mid-way through fully commiting with his kick, he switches to a defensive position.
And was Luffy even hurt? No, he was about to retaliate until Trebol's snot subdued him; they were both well matched in Gear 2nd.
Doflamingo never bypassed Luffy's haki with his stings, if Joker's haki was superior to Luffy's, then the outcome in every single clash should never end in a stalemate.
Also, to say Luffy never hurt Joker is absurd and that's without even bringing up Red Hawk.
this is the third time ive said that statement.the aim of the MOVE 'gear 4th" is to surpass his 'limits'. this directly implies that this isnt his actual strength, but it is a TEMPORARY boost____Kizaru's light speed isnt temporary! the context in which he stated needing gear 4th for is when the monsters were way too powerful for his other gears to challenge him, but because of the sacrificed lifespan and weaknesses, its a last resort, if he used it in desperation to beat doffy, and it still failed to beat him (and doffy wasnt running, he was parying his attacks using his own) then it becomes FACT that:
luffy+gear 4th << doflamingo+ awakening+critical injuries
Gear 2nd does the same thing as Gear 4th, just to a greater degree, so what's the difference? It's not like Gear 4th is a rumble ball technique.
It has nothing to do with it being temporary, different abilities work different ways. You're blaming Luffy for capitalizing on the best way to best make use of his DF's abilities and claiming it to be a cheat when Joker can:
Control 1,000s of people at once without affect his stamina.
Suspend himself in Mid air.
Build a Birdcage that can't be cut and doesn't even affect his stamina.
Summon a clone that can fight on his behalf while he just sits and does nothing to his stamina.
Can use first aid on himself.
Can also turn an entire town into strings at no expenditure of stamina.
Yet, Joker is the one handicapped? This is a biased view on your part.
If the aim of Gear 4th is too surpass his limits, then enlighten me, what does Gear 2nd do that's any different because I'm at a loss for words right now.
If you're going to discredit Luffy for using his abilities the best way he can, then you have to discredit Joker and Kizaru amd every other DF user, or you're simply being biased.
What about Law being able to use an ability that eats one's internal organs without leaving external scars? Are you going to deem him weak for being "advantaged"?
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