Hangout The Games Hangout Thread

[Jammin]

Yeah, no word on PC split screen either. Will probably be needed to be modded in like in the past games. Not sure why they wouldn't have included it on console honestly. Is console splitscreen really that rare these days?

Pretty rare. Usually games are striving so hard for as much graphical punch as they can get and with the aging console hardware split screen tends to just not be a thing. So you see things lean toward online and away from couch co-op.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 10, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2019 ---

Oh no..

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/04/the-past-and-present-of-dragon-age-4/

 

[scav]

i've been hyped for Mortal Kombat 11. But all the talk about micro transactions and grind turned me off. there's nothing stupider than having to grind in a fighting games lol guess i'll stick to smash

 

[Jammin]

Well on the positive side of news. Just read a post from one of the Bloodlines 2 devs. It really sounds like Hardsuit Labs was the right developer to be making this game.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-hardsuit-labs-by-liz-starr-from-hsl.1168106/

You can really see the passion and enthusiasm in everything around HSL and this game. It just sounds like everybody involved wants this game to be exactly what all the Bloodlines fans want it to be. And are determined to make that a reality.

 

[xi0]

i've been hyped for Mortal Kombat 11. But all the talk about micro transactions and grind turned me off. there's nothing stupider than having to grind in a fighting games lol guess i'll stick to smash

Apparently there's DLC for "easy" Fatalities.... why even play

 

[z.5]

Apparently there's DLC for "easy" Fatalities.... why even play

Because being able to perform a short series of button presses, after you've beaten an opponent, impresses next to no one.
Mortal Kombat has not ever been about the fatalities (even though they are a nice cherry on the top of the enjoyable brutal gameplay)

"Easy" fatalities is the right kind of DLC, if you ask me.
As, in general, are skins/tags (if done well).

I'd be happy if all beat-em ups included fatalities, just to lock them away behind a pay wall.
That way, I'd still be able to buy and enjoy the game - with all the characters - and I could just youtube the fatalities and be done with them.

The fact that it's just 'easy' fatalities, rather than 'fatalities in general' just makes it even more forgivable to me.

Where the beat-em up game developers really show their true colours is this recent trend of selling characters as DLC.
This is a far greater sin than in most other genres of game, as (excluding mechanics, obviously) beat-em up's live and die based upon the character rosters they provide.

And no - just because you can theoretically unlock them all with time, is hardly a 'get out of jail free' card.
They often say that it is, but it's pretty obvious that they make the grind as steep, long, and painful, as they can, just to make you fork out yet more money to be able to play with your favourite characters.

It's a pretty sickening practice - showing what utter contempt these developers have for their player base.

 

[xi0]

Because being able to perform a short series of button presses, after you've beaten an opponent, impresses next to no one.
Mortal Kombat has not ever been about the fatalities (even though they are a nice cherry on the top of the enjoyable brutal gameplay)

"Easy" fatalities is the right kind of DLC, if you ask me.
As, in general, are skins/tags (if done well).

I'd be happy if all beat-em ups included fatalities, just to lock them away behind a pay wall.
That way, I'd still be able to buy and enjoy the game - with all the characters - and I could just youtube the fatalities and be done with them.

I can follow your logic there, but learning fatalities is part of the MK experience and always has been. If that was the only issue the game had, while sounding ridiculous to me on paper, it's something most people wouldn't care too much about. The issue is it's on top of all of the other issues the game has, which is a lot of scummy monetization, something they started in Injustice 2. The character unlock bullshit that nearly all fighting games participate in, as well as the new harder towers that are almost impossible to complete without inhuman grinding, which is there by design to push you towards more MTX. And now, guess what, you can pay for fatalities!... cmon

 

[scav]

Because being able to perform a short series of button presses, after you've beaten an opponent, impresses next to no one.
Mortal Kombat has not ever been about the fatalities (even though they are a nice cherry on the top of the enjoyable brutal gameplay)

"Easy" fatalities is the right kind of DLC, if you ask me.

what is this nonsense? fatality is part of the MK culture and identity. learning and doing them is rewarding. now they're ruining that experience. Are you even into fighting games?

 

[z.5]

what is this nonsense? fatality is part of the MK culture and identity. learning and doing them is rewarding. now they're ruining that experience. Are you even into fighting games?

Doing them is rewarding?

scav, mate, you really need to set your goals a bit higher if you are so easily rewarded

Yes, MK isn't MK without fatalities - but performing them has hardly ever been difficult or impressive

Making them automatic hardly ruins the game - as if the game is so shit that the only good thing is the fatalities, there are obviously far more pressing issues to fix.

My point is that things like individual character purchases are a far more egregious sin - one which makes me hesitant to buy any modern beat-em up, out of principle alone.

 

[scav]

Doing them is rewarding?

scav, mate, you really need to set your goals a bit higher if you are so easily rewarded

Yes, MK isn't MK without fatalities - but performing them has hardly ever been difficult or impressive

Making them automatic hardly ruins the game - as if the game is so shit that the only good thing is the fatalities, there are obviously far more pressing issues to fix.

My point is that things like individual character purchases are a far more egregious sin - one which makes me hesitant to buy any modern beat-em up, out of principle alone.

doing them is rewarding, it's like a victory celebration and something unique to MK. people didn't go on learning brutality and fatality for their favorites characters for nothing. it's part of the character move set. . the fact that you downgrade it to being just a serie of button press is nonsense cuz 50% of a fighting games is memorizing and doing a serie of button presse without doing a single bad input. Even pro miss those input sometimes. Now we're doing dlc so people have an easier inputs? It's the worst kind of dlc you can add in a fighting game.

Right now you're thinking "oh it's just after you win, it doesn't matter", there are others issues at hand. You're right it doesn't ruin the game but look at what that dlc is introducing: to put into perspective, ryu ultra in SSF4 is 2 quarter circle F + 3 punches now imagine a dlc so you can have an easier time doing it. Those inputs are part of the CHARACTER MOVESET. it doesnt matter what you think of it, what they're doing is altering a move set for some players because they paid more.

Also it's part of the culture for people who have been into MK since years, it's taking a shit on MK fans. I remember watching a tournament couple of years ago where a player, paused the game to check the input for the fatality before doing it, the whole crowd started to boo i think it was at EVO

 

[z.5]

the fact that you downgrade it to being just a serie of button press is nonsense cuz 50% of a fighting games is memorizing and doing a serie of button presse without doing a single bad input.

It's only even close to 50% if you are at the lowest ends of the skill curve.

The vast majority is positioning and timing. Then you have faking and baiting.

There's a reason why games like Street Fighter have such simple button commands - performing a hadouken isn't meant to be challenging. Knowing when to perform a hadouken is the real skill.

Even pro miss those input sometimes.

Sure, but that's only nerves - it equates to a counter-strike pro missing an easy shot, or a DOTA or Starcraft player misclicking.

Pro's aren't meant to make these simple mistakes, but it isn't the difficulty of the task that leads to them messing up.

to put into perspective, ryu ultra in SSF4 is 2 quarter circle F + 3 punches now imagine a dlc so you can have an easier time doing it. Those inputs are part of the CHARACTER MOVESET. it doesnt matter what you think of it, what they're doing is altering a move set for some players because they paid more.

I'm sorry, but again I feel that these two things are incomparable. Failing an ultra can cost you the match, failing a fatality can't. At that point you've already won. The fatality is just showboating.

If they make in-match moves single button presses, based upon DLC purchases, you might have a point. But, as cultural as they might be, fatalities just aren't anywhere near as important to a MK fight, than any of the in-fight moves are.

Even a single heavy punch (a one button attack) is far more important, in this respect.

I remember watching a tournament couple of years ago where a player, paused the game to check the input for the fatality before doing it, the whole crowd started to boo i think it was at EVO

That sounds hilarious.
You have a link?

It's funny as I've always seen fatalities as helping to rub salt in the loser's wounds - doing this at EVO (not even being able to gloat properly) just makes the winner look bad

 

[scav]

It's only even close to 50% if you are at the lowest ends of the skill curve.

The vast majority is positioning and timing. Then you have faking and baiting.

There's a reason why games like Street Fighter have such simple button commands - performing a hadouken isn't meant to be challenging. Knowing when to perform a hadouken is the real skill.


Sure, but that's only nerves - it equates to a counter-strike pro missing an easy shot, or a DOTA or Starcraft player misclicking.

Pro's aren't meant to make these simple mistakes, but it isn't the difficulty of the task that leads to them messing up.


I'm sorry, but again I feel that these two things are incomparable. Failing an ultra can cost you the match, failing a fatality can't. At that point you've already won. The fatality is just showboating.

If they make in-match moves single button presses, based upon DLC purchases, you might have a point. But, as cultural as they might be, fatalities just aren't anywhere near as important to a MK fight, than any of the in-fight moves are.

Even a single heavy punch (a one button attack) is far more important, in this respect.


That sounds hilarious.
You have a link?

It's funny as I've always seen fatalities as helping to rub salt in the loser's wounds - doing this at EVO (not even being able to gloat properly) just makes the winner look bad

not really i think 50% is accurate. that's actually what separate casual players and players who are really invested into a game. whether it's the spacing or the timing or the reads,you'll get the mechanics if you play long enough. But if you don't sit hours into practice mode you'll never memorize the combo. And the difference come where let's say one get a punish on you, if he didnt practice his combo let's say he gonna dish you 200dmg while the one who practiced gonna dish you 500dmg. Why do you think all people who are serious into fighting games go invest $200 into arcade sticks instead of playing with a controller? bad input is a thing. I remember when i was grinding Street fighter 4 online (more than 800hours) my battle points was stuck at grade C+ for a long time, til a switched to an arcade stick then i got to grade B+, ended very close to grade A (i was around the top 20% FYI).

i don't plays those games but you can't compare apple to orange. if i had to compare it to League of legends which is similar to DOTA it'd say it's comparable to mechanics rather than a misc lick. you take the 30-ish characters in MK X, some of them have many brutalities and fatalities. say you have 6 characters you like to play, just the brutalities and fatalities you have like 20 sets of button press to memorize. that's why you can compare inputting a wrong fatality to a misclick. make no sense. not to mention some finishers only work for a given situation, you'd fail if you try it in a regular situation. I used to play Reptile, some finishers would work only in particular variations. that's why that semi auto finishers dlc is bs.

it doesn't cost you the game, like i said you gotta see the direction that dlc is going. giving someone who paid an easier moveset.

man did someone shit on you with a brutality so bad ? there are plenty of fighting games around, MK is the only one that reward winning with the ability to butcher your opponent. you don't get it, prob never been serious into a MK game

i'll check later if i can find a link i think it was at EVO 2014 or 2015

Nah doing it make you look bad only if you fail. gotta rub that salt

 

[z.5]

not really i think 50% is accurate. that's actually what separate casual players and players who are really invested into a game.

I'm pretty sure that I'd be counted as a 'casual' player of beat-em ups, yet I rarely, if ever, mess up a button input.

When I play against other 'casuals' I don't do badly, but when I play against more skilled players I do.
It really has nothing to do with input - at least not in the games I play, where the inputs are super easy (Street Fighter being a prime example)

But if you don't sit hours into practice mode you'll never memorize the combo.

Are you discussing the latest MK specifically?

If so, I can't really comment. I do not have it.

But for most of the games I enjoy, the combos really don't take all that long to memorize.

It's possible that for games like Tekken, which I don't enjoy, that this isn't the case, however.

Why do you think all people who are serious into fighting games go invest $200 into arcade sticks instead of playing with a controller? bad input is a thing.

For sure it is.

They invest in high end gear to minimize all possible error. They'd probably still trounce most people without that expensive gear, they just don't want to risk anything in an important game.
The difference, however slight the advantage might be, is worth it at that level.

But they don't invest in $200 sticks because they can't remember (or perform) simple button inputs.

I don't plays those games but you can't compare apple to orange.

My point was more that the inputs in those games are super easy (single mouse clicks + a few keyboard presses), yet still pros occasionally mess them up.
This was to show that the complexity of the action doesn't negate the possibility of error - nothing more, nothing less.

just the brutalities and fatalities you have like 20 sets of button press to memorize. that's why you can compare inputting a wrong fatality to a misclick.

But, the way I was arguing it, you can. As a misclick in a SC nuke, or a LoL/DOTA ability, can theoretically cost you a game - a misclick in a fatality can not.
At most, it can cost you a little dignity.

it doesn't cost you the game, like i said you gotta see the direction that dlc is going. giving someone who paid an easier moveset.

And as I said, if they make it for regular, in match, actions - I may well side with you.
In the specific case for fatalities, I'm afraid that I just can't find the effort to be sad.

I'd much rather they made people spend cash on petty things like 'easy fatalities', than on unlocking characters.

MK is the only one that reward winning with the ability to butcher your opponent. you don't get it

The only one that rewards with fatalities?!?

You sure about that?


I mean, sure, the MK series is certainly the most famous series to have 'fatalities' - if that is what you were arguing?

i'll check later if i can find a link i think it was at EVO 2014 or 2015

Thanks bud, it sounds like something fun to watch!

 

[xi0]

I'd much rather they made people spend cash on petty things like 'easy fatalities', than on unlocking characters.

Well it's not an either or thing here, since it's both. And I sort of agree with scav, given how this game appears to have turned out, there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't jump at a chance to keep combos locked behind a paywall if they could. So why even get started with something even remotely similar?

 

[z.5]

Well it's not an either or thing here, since it's both. And I sort of agree with scav, given how this game appears to have turned out, there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't jump at a chance to keep combos locked behind a paywall if they could.

I dunno - I just don't personally see it as all that similar at all.

People want to see and do the fatalities - and as easy fatalities don't really effect the actual game, they are easy to implement without annoying too many people.
This is really not the case with in-game moves.

It isn't that I couldn't see a company doing it (I mean, look at the shit they already pull) - I just think that, in the beat-em up genre, it's almost sales suicide to do such a thing.
I can not see any company wanting to be the first to lock specific moves/combos behind a paywall - at least not in the way that it sounds like [to me] you are suggesting.

So why even get started with something even remotely similar?

If it was down to me, I wouldn't let them pull half the shit they currently do.
If, however, I refused to buy all the games which did shit that I despise, I would almost buy no games whatsoever.

If it was only paid fatalities, I might consider buying the latest MK.
As I know that the game has locked off characters, I won't.

It's as simple as that.

I put 'DLC characters in a beat-em up' in the same level of 'how unforgivable an action is' as 'platform/client exclusivity'

Other forms of DLC (such as skins and the likes) are a far lower rung in my annoyance ladder.

 

[xi0]

It isn't that I couldn't see a company doing it (I mean, look at the shit they already pull) - I just think that, in the beat-em up genre, it's almost sales suicide to do such a thing.
I can not see any company wanting to be the first to lock specific moves/combos behind a paywall - at least not in the way that it sounds like [to me] you are suggesting.

There's a long list of things I would consider "sales suicide" and yet every year there seems to be a new "low" when it comes to what companies get away with. And why do they get away with it? A large chunk of the people buying a game aren't aware of these things before they buy them, so companies usually make a killing anyways.

And then there's this, all the evidence you need:

 

[z.5]

And then there's this, all the evidence you need:

We [gamers] really are a depressingly predictable bunch

 

[Jammin]

There's a long list of things I would consider "sales suicide" and yet every year there seems to be a new "low" when it comes to what companies get away with. And why do they get away with it? A large chunk of the people buying a game aren't aware of these things before they buy them, so companies usually make a killing anyways.

And then there's this, all the evidence you need:

The thing I don't get, and probably never really will is how companies don't see where this stuff leads. Like I'm not a Mortal Kombat guy. Not even a fighting game guy. So I'm pretty neutral on everything about MK yet if I was in meeting and somebody brought up the ideas that I am hearing about being implemented I'd be like "Guys, this will be a problem." I feel like any reasonable person would say that.

Even if it boosts the revenue this one game makes in the short term. In the long term it pushes away potential and longtime fans. And to grow franchises in the long term you need to do the opposite.

This is one of the things that really leaves me scratching my head with some of the AAA games business practices out there. What they should be doing is attempting to grow franchises. And you do that by creating fan loyalty and enthusiasm. You can't do that and try to squeeze your fans for more money at every turn. It just doesn't work.

Which they can probably fix somewhat in this particular case. Sounds to me like if they wise up and change what obviously needs to be changed. It could eventually turn out ok. But it should have never needed to happen in the first place. The game was such a positive story. Now it's not. And that's not good for Mortal Kombat as a franchise.

Like if your running a store and somebody walks in and wants to buy something. Even if you could make more money off that person by screwing them over it would be foolish to do that because you could lose that customer forever. Is a couple extra bucks now worth a lifetime of him shopping at your store? No. That's the thing that I really feel like many gaming companies are ignoring. They feel like each game is an isolated transaction and aren't thinking about the customer behind them.

 

[xi0]

The thing I don't get, and probably never really will is how companies don't see where this stuff leads. Like I'm not a Mortal Kombat guy. Not even a fighting game guy. So I'm pretty neutral on everything about MK yet if I was in meeting and somebody brought up the ideas that I am hearing about being implemented I'd be like "Guys, this will be a problem." I feel like any reasonable person would say that.

Even if it boosts the revenue this one game makes in the short term. In the long term it pushes away potential and longtime fans. And to grow franchises in the long term you need to do the opposite.

This is one of the things that really leaves me scratching my head with some of the AAA games business practices out there. What they should be doing is attempting to grow franchises. And you do that by creating fan loyalty and enthusiasm. You can't do that and try to squeeze your fans for more money at every turn. It just doesn't work.

Which they can probably fix somewhat in this particular case. Sounds to me like if they wise up and change what obviously needs to be changed. It could eventually turn out ok. But it should have never needed to happen in the first place. The game was such a positive story. Now it's not. And that's not good for Mortal Kombat as a franchise.

Like if your running a store and somebody walks in and wants to buy something. Even if you could make more money off that person by screwing them over it would be foolish to do that because you could lose that customer forever. Is a couple extra bucks now worth a lifetime of him shopping at your store? No. That's the thing that I really feel like many gaming companies are ignoring. They feel like each game is an isolated transaction and aren't thinking about the customer behind them.

It's like what I mentioned before - a huge chunk of people who end up buying this game have no idea any of these issues exist. Not everyone is an "informed" customer. They see there's a new Mortal Kombat game and buy it. Then you have the whale gamers who have disposable income and give no fucks. Then you have people who buy it because they were looking forward to it and can ignore the bad aspects. This is why these games still sell, and we're all guilty of it to some degree. It almost has to be tolerated to some degree if you want to play anything that isn't an indie title.

About the long-term, I'm not sure how much these executives care about that, as long as they can turn this much profit in any given financial quarter. One could say they might care more about longevity with a new IP, but Mortal Kombat isn't new and has an existing fanbase that has bought MK games for 25+ years now. I feel like these companies took a lot of inspiration from EA Sports titles and other games. The monetization isn't too much different from the systems that exist in those games. And fans of those games seemingly have no standards in the first place. So that kind of shit and similar stuff in mobile games have bled into the AAA industry simply because they work.

And even if you want to look into what you're buying ahead of time and do some research, you have the mainstream "review" site that gave it 7-9/10 (both console versions are sitting at 83 and 87). While taking money from Warner Bros. to advertise the game on the same site... Don't even get me started there.

 

[Jammin]

It's like what I mentioned before - a huge chunk of people who end up buying this game have no idea any of these issues exist. Not everyone is an "informed" customer. They see there's a new Mortal Kombat game and buy it. Then you have the whale gamers who have disposable income and give no fucks. Then you have people who buy it because they were looking forward to it and can ignore the bad aspects. This is why these games still sell, and we're all guilty of it to some degree. It almost has to be tolerated to some degree if you want to play anything that isn't an indie title.

About the long-term, I'm not sure how much these executives care about that, as long as they can turn this much profit in any given financial quarter. One could say they might care more about longevity with a new IP, but Mortal Kombat isn't new and has an existing fanbase that has bought MK games for 25+ years now. I feel like these companies took a lot of inspiration from EA Sports titles and other games. The monetization isn't too much different from the systems that exist in those games. And fans of those games seemingly have no standards in the first place. So that kind of shit and similar stuff in mobile games have bled into the AAA industry simply because they work.

And even if you want to look into what you're buying ahead of time and do some research, you have the mainstream "review" site that gave it 7-9/10 (both console versions are sitting at 83 and 87). While taking money from Warner Bros. to advertise the game on the same site... Don't even get me started there.

It works for some games but for most games it doesn't. Like MK has existed for as long as it has because they have kept trying to appeal to it's audience. They've made mistakes but generally people are happy with the relationship as a customer they have with nether reams. Like I don't even think it matters if your an informed customer or not. When people feel like they got burned by something they have a little more caution going forward.

Like take EA's monetization stuff. That gives them huge profits now but somebody scams you out of a bunch of money and doesn't give you much in return your going to remember it. Sure there are whale gamers that don't care but most people buying their games aren't those people. Those huge profits they're getting are not sustainable. Like you said the people at the the top don't seem to care but I think they really should. Profit is great. But without stable growth they are heading towards a cliff. And when they finally push things too far it will go right off of it. Whether it will be regulation or fed up gamers or whatever.

I look at what Capcom has done in the last year. And I see how it should be done. They brought back and really increased the value of the Resident Evil, Street Fighter, Monster Hunter, Devil May Cry, even Ace Attorney with the PS4 collection. They increased the value of those franchises by making those games they way they did.

Like as long as companies like EA and Activision are doing what they currently are they are never going to have that. Because their approach is devaluing their franchises and IP in exchange for short term profits. Sooner or later that could even effect licensing agreements which is what EA should be most scared of. Even more than lootbox regulation.

 

[z.5]

Well, it is in points like this where Jim Sterling (tgfh) and I are somewhat in agreement.

Some of the big companies don't appear to care for the long-term and just want as much money as they can get in the short-term.
I think that they feel gamers will swallow their bad practice like medicine - the taste is bad, few people will deny it, but gamers will still come back for more.

It isn't even so much as being ill-informed - if the image that xi0 posted displays anything, it's that gamers will piss and moan, but this will rarely change their purchasing habits.

Even if it does sway a few, there will always be massive sales for [almost] any and every new AAA title (even if a remake or the 500th sequel to a series)

It's great people like me saying that gamers should vote with our wallets, but we rarely if ever do.
Game companies know this, so little is likely to ever change (at least not for the better).

Also - I do hope that you were not bringing up what Capcom did to the Street Fighter series as a good thing Jammin
it's possible that I misread, and you weren't, but just in case I didn't - Capcom are, in my mind, just as bad in shady practice with Street Fighter, than NetherRealm Studios, QLOC, Shiver, or Warner Bros. are with MK 11.