Hangout The Games Hangout Thread

[Jammin]

Yeah, I guess bricking is a little hypberbolic in this case. Still, that they even managed to make a PS4 hard shutdown from the software side is incredible. That's pretty hard to do by accident.

Hearing all the things wrong with it really makes me feel like Frostbite really must have no flexibility at all. Like everything I've heard about loading screens and inability to manage inventory in game, the lack of a general stat screen. They had to know people wouldn't care for that. Contrary to the available evidence right now Bioware isn't stupid. They must have just not been able to do it.

I wonder if the combination of server systems and rpg systems just breaks Frostbite completely and they just realized that too late.

Like a lot of what I'm hearing sounds like stuff they should have fixed and can fix. The drop rates. The loot variety. Repetitive gameplay loops. Bugs. Even the story. That can all get better but it shouldn't be this bad. I wonder if they were in full triage mode and just let that stuff go because they didn't have a choice.

The endless loading screens, rubber banding, AI issues, spawning issues, and restrictive inventory management. Those seem like symptoms of deeper problems. Like they couldn't get it work and were forced to do all of that in order for the game not to be completely non-functional.

 

[xi0]

Like a lot of what I'm hearing sounds like stuff they should have fixed and can fix. The drop rates. The loot variety. Repetitive gameplay loops. Bugs. Even the story. That can all get better but it shouldn't be this bad. I wonder if they were in full triage mode and just let that stuff go because they didn't have a choice.

The game had one official delay I think, but clearly this is not the fruit of 6 years of development. Well, I guess it really is.... but this can't be what they were working on all of that time. After how much of a clusterfuck Andromeda and Battlefront 2 were, EA might not have given Bioware much leeway to continue development. Just in the E3 promo alone compared to what we got, there's a ton of things missing. Granted, we're supposed to get more of an "evolving world" this spring, but still.

The endless loading screens, rubber banding, AI issues, spawning issues, and restrictive inventory management. Those seem like symptoms of deeper problems. Like they couldn't get it work and were forced to do all of that in order for the game not to be completely non-functional.

Rubber banding isn't really an issue, it's this odd tethering that forces all squad members into loading screens if they venture too far away from mission areas. The inventory system itself is indeed really bizarre, such as looting Items of varying qualities but not even knowing what those are specifically until after you end a session. It's all a bit puzzling.

 

[Jammin]

The game had one official delay I think, but clearly this is not the fruit of 6 years of development. Well, I guess it really is.... but this can't be what they were working on all of that time. After how much of a clusterfuck Andromeda and Battlefront 2 were, EA might not have given Bioware much leeway to continue development. Just in the E3 promo alone compared to what we got, there's a ton of things missing. Granted, we're supposed to get more of an "evolving world" this spring, but still.

Something must have happened behind the scenes. A lot of people left Bioware during this games development and you can kind of see some possible reasons why.

Rubber banding isn't really an issue, it's this odd tethering that forces all squad members into loading screens if they venture too far away from mission areas. The inventory system itself is indeed really bizarre, such as looting Items of varying qualities but not even knowing what those are specifically until after you end a session. It's all a bit puzzling.

The tethering is what I meant. I'm certainly no expert but to me that seems like something a dev would put in there if the server and engine had a problem keeping up with the players if they stray too far from one another. That's the only reason to do it that I can think of. Old coop open world games in the PS3 era used to do a similar kind of tethering for that reason. Mercenaries 2 jumps to mind as an example. If the players are closer the game doesn't have to keep track of as much. There are tricks around that of course but maybe they couldn't get Frostbite and the online infrastructure to do those well.

Like I could imagine a situation where in order to keep the session intact they needed a tight tether because Frostbite might process too much data of the other players and crush performance.

The loot thing I'm assuming is also Frostbite because it's similar to a problem I heard talked about regarding Dragon Age Inquisition. Frostbite has a lot of trouble with inventory systems for some reason. They probably can't do it and everything they want to do with gameplay at the same time. Though notably they worked out those problems with Inquisition and Andromeda. I'd bet the introduction of server complexities into the mix kicked that problem up an order of magnitude. So they make players manage that in a controlled environment where there isn't as much going on under the hood.

The fascinating thing to me is, if my guesses are right, I'm not sure how they fix all that. Because, if these problems are themselves just symptoms of Frostbite having trouble supporting an MMO-lite type of game and being held together by scotch tape and hope, can that even be patched? Like you can fix a house but if the foundation is bad that's a whole other thing.

 

[xi0]

The tethering is what I meant. I'm certainly no expert but to me that seems like something a dev would put in there if the server and engine had a problem keeping up with the players if they stray too far from one another. That's the only reason to do it that I can think of. Old coop open world games in the PS3 era used to do a similar kind of tethering for that reason. Mercenaries 2 jumps to mind as an example. If the players are closer the game doesn't have to keep track of as much. There are tricks around that of course but maybe they couldn't get Frostbite and the online infrastructure to do those well.

I don't think that can be the case, as the most "open world" this game gets is Freeplay, which lets you explore the entire world, participate in world events, search for treasure, etc. Just like playing a mission or a stronghold (their version of dungeons), you get matchmade with 3 other people. But the tethering doesn't exist there. The tethering system seems to exist purely to make things more objective-focused. I believe they've toned it down a bit by extending the time before they teleport you, but why there needs to be a loading screen when they do this is beyond me. It only exists to make the game seem less seamless. Another engine limitation, I suppose.

The fascinating thing to me is, if my guesses are right, I'm not sure how they fix all that. Because, if these problems are themselves just symptoms of Frostbite having trouble supporting an MMO-lite type of game and being held together by scotch tape and hope, can that even be patched? Like you can fix a house but if the foundation is bad that's a whole other thing.

Maybe not... But that's one of the more minor oddities about the game that I could live with. The bigger problem is bugs like Haku has to deal with every time he gets in his Javelin. Or Bosses crashing entire Strongholds, or entering Strongholds already in progress putting you in pools of lava outside the actual place you fight so no one can repair you. Or the interact button not even working, so no one can be repaired and killing yourself maybe not even fixing it.

The sad thing is Bioware does seem to be trying to address issues as quickly as possible, but there's so many of them that I have to wonder how that's going to effect future content releases. And whether there will be much of a playerbase left to participate.

 

[Jammin]

I don't think that can be the case, as the most "open world" this game gets is Freeplay, which lets you explore the entire world, participate in world events, search for treasure, etc. Just like playing a mission or a stronghold (their version of dungeons), you get matchmade with 3 other people. But the tethering doesn't exist there. The tethering system seems to exist purely to make things more objective-focused. I believe they've toned it down a bit by extending the time before they teleport you, but why there needs to be a loading screen when they do this is beyond me. It only exists to make the game seem less seamless. Another engine limitation, I suppose.

It can be if it's Frostbite just isn't built for this kind of game. Like not everything needs to break to make a tether necessary. It's just that something about mission structure or team gameplay. Anything from boss behaviors to reward tracking.

I mean, maybe it is just a design decision but how incompetent would have to be to think it was a good idea? That and the loading screens kind of have to be either engine issues or catastrophically bad design.

Maybe not... But that's one of the more minor oddities about the game that I could live with. The bigger problem is bugs like Haku has to deal with every time he gets in his Javelin. Or Bosses crashing entire Strongholds, or entering Strongholds already in progress putting you in pools of lava outside the actual place you fight so no one can repair you. Or the interact button not even working, so no one can be repaired and killing yourself maybe not even fixing it.

The sad thing is Bioware does seem to be trying to address issues as quickly as possible, but there's so many of them that I have to wonder how that's going to effect future content releases. And whether there will be much of a playerbase left to participate.

As long as they do fix it, I have to think it will be fine. People are still playing Fallout 76, after all.

Might have to relaunch it in 6-12 months though when there is a little more there and when what's there works closer to how it should.

---------------------------------------

My only real concern is the lasting effect this plus Andromeda is going to have on Bioware because I think a lot of people, myself included, have gone from eagerly awaiting a Dragon Age announcement to hoping I don't hear from them for like 4 years. Since the heights of Mass Effect 2 it's kind of been a steady stream of diminishing returns from them. A "Bioware game" used to be synonymous with a top tier RPG and that just hasn't been true for a while.

I'm a Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, and Mass Effect Andromeda apologist; even SWTOR a little (I will never defend Mass Effect 3 thought..). I maintain there are great things about those games flawed though they all are. But they do reflect a steady decline in game quality.

They badly need a KOTOR, Dragon Age Origins, or Mass Effect 2 quality game to stop that slide to becoming a mediocre RPG studio but I'm honestly starting to wonder if they even can.

 

[xi0]

It can be if it's Frostbite just isn't built for this kind of game. Like not everything needs to break to make a tether necessary. It's just that something about mission structure or team gameplay. Anything from boss behaviors to reward tracking.

I mean, maybe it is just a design decision but how incompetent would have to be to think it was a good idea? That and the loading screens kind of have to be either engine issues or catastrophically bad design.

I was saying that I don't think tethering exists due to performance reasons, due to it existing in Missions but not in Freeplay, which use the same overworld. If it's still related to it being Frostbite, then I can't really think offhand why that would be, but I guess it wouldn't be the first time game programming leads to really confusing things.

Uh, you'd be surprised since it's not the only seemingly baffling thing they've done with this game. You'd think having a map markers/waypoints would be something they'd have in the earlier alpha, and they apparently did in their trailers. But it's completely missing in-game. Or squad members getting replaced before they can attempt to reconnect.... there's actually a lot of things like this. There's games on Steam in Early Access that have more QoL features than this game...

My only real concern is the lasting effect this plus Andromeda is going to have on Bioware because I think a lot of people, myself included, have gone from eagerly awaiting a Dragon Age announcement to hoping I don't hear from them for like 4 years. Since the heights of Mass Effect 2 it's kind of been a steady stream of diminishing returns from them. A "Bioware game" used to be synonymous with a top tier RPG and that just hasn't been true for a while.

I'm a Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, and Mass Effect Andromeda apologist; even SWTOR a little (I will never defend Mass Effect 3 thought..). I maintain there are great things about those games flawed though they all are. But they do reflect a steady decline in game quality.

They badly need a KOTOR, Dragon Age Origins, or Mass Effect 2 quality game to stop that slide to becoming a mediocre RPG studio but I'm honestly starting to wonder if they even can.

Was it just the ending of ME3 you have a problem with? As bungled as that was, I think the rest of the game is close to ME2 quality.

And I don't really know, EA isn't shy about closing studios/projects. I'm not really sure if the public perception is hurting their revenue too much, but they did advertise the living shit out of this game, so they're more likely to be operating at loss compared to something like Apex Legends. Unless Bioware is completely hapless and get nothing right going forward, I would think they'll keep it going for another year at least. Unsure about DA4 though... but I don't know why people would feel optimistic about it even before this Anthem disaster.

 

[Jammin]

Was it just the ending of ME3 you have a problem with? As bungled as that was, I think the rest of the game is close to ME2 quality.

Oh, I have a whole host of complaints about that game. The ending is a just a piece of it. The way the stories in that game a structured, what it focuses on, and how much it pulls out player agency (in and out of gameplay) outside of a few big story moments are all things I had a huge problem with.

 

[xi0]

Oh, I have a whole host of complaints about that game. The ending is a just a piece of it. The way the stories in that game a structured, what it focuses on, and how much it pulls out player agency (in and out of gameplay) outside of a few big story moments are all things I had a huge problem with.

I think the game was never as "deep" as it was during the first, but for some reason I still enjoyed 2 and 3 more overall, I think

 

[Jammin]

I think the game was never as "deep" as it was during the first, but for some reason I still enjoyed 2 and 3 more overall, I think

For me it's down to one of the central tenants of a good games. Presenting the player with decisions that interest them. Whether that be Tetris or Final Fantasy, Call of Duty, or Mass Effect.

The Mass Effect series relies heavily on narrative for that since the gameplay is your basic cover based corridor shooting. When you take that away, like Mass Effect 3 does, it really doesn't have anything to drive it. Even the big decisions the game makes are ultimately meaningless in the larger story context and there is little to nothing in gameplay to offset that.

Like in Apex those decisions are happening all the time. When do you use your abilities, which items do you pick up, where should your team go.

In ME you hide behind the thing and shoot the other thing. With very little variation. That's the correct answer. Even when one enemy shows up that can break through that. The correct answer becomes moving then hide behind the thing and shoot the thing. There are no decisions to be made.

 

[Hakuteiken]

TMaybe not... But that's one of the more minor oddities about the game that I could live with. The bigger problem is bugs like Haku has to deal with every time he gets in his Javelin. Or Bosses crashing entire Strongholds, or entering Strongholds already in progress putting you in pools of lava outside the actual place you fight so no one can repair you. Or the interact button not even working, so no one can be repaired and killing yourself maybe not even fixing it.

The sad thing is Bioware does seem to be trying to address issues as quickly as possible, but there's so many of them that I have to wonder how that's going to effect future content releases. And whether there will be much of a playerbase left to participate.

I'm not even sure why The Heart of the Rage even exists. It's a replay of the final mission, adds nothing new, incredibly frustrating to play because The Monitor is the biggest bullet sponge in the game, and is bugged down to the core. And I still have to restart the game if I want to play with my headset, unless I want to listen to static noise for hours.

The biggest issue right now is everyone has a different "biggest issue" for themselves. For me, it's loading into the game. For some, it is bugged world events and strongholds. Reproducability aside, the variety of bugs is crazy.

As the "why do you even play" guy here, I'm doing my best to move on. I watched some more Division 2 beta gameplay to see if I will change my mind, but just no. The whole thing feels entirely asinine. I will give Destiny another shot and see if I can make myself like it and see how that goes.

 

[Jammin]

I'm not even sure why The Heart of the Rage even exists. It's a replay of the final mission, adds nothing new, incredibly frustrating to play because The Monitor is the biggest bullet sponge in the game, and is bugged down to the core. And I still have to restart the game if I want to play with my headset, unless I want to listen to static noise for hours.

The biggest issue right now is everyone has a different "biggest issue" for themselves. For me, it's loading into the game. For some, it is bugged world events and strongholds. Reproducability aside, the variety of bugs is crazy.

As the "why do you even play" guy here, I'm doing my best to move on. I watched some more Division 2 beta gameplay to see if I will change my mind, but just no. The whole thing feels entirely asinine. I will give Destiny another shot and see if I can make myself like it and see how that goes.

Have you ever considered Warframe?

I mean, I'm bias because I have 952 hours into it but if your looking for a game the won't kick you in the balls. It does exist.

 

[Hakuteiken]

Have you ever considered Warframe?

I mean, I'm bias because I have 952 hours into it but if your looking for a game the won't kick you in the balls. It does exist.

Before Destiny 2 base game was free and I mentioned buying it, Gary's reaction was "Just play Warframe instead".

I don't know much about either game, to be honest. All I know is both have gone through painful periods and gradually made improvements over the time.

 

[Jammin]

Before Destiny 2 base game was free and I mentioned buying it, Gary's reaction was "Just play Warframe instead".

I don't know much about either game, to be honest. All I know is both have gone through painful periods and gradually made improvements over the time.

I mean, like I said I'm biased. Warframe has been a staple in my life for literally years. So feel free to ignore absolutely everything I'm about to say.

That having been said Warframe is the best and it's free.

It is a polished experience now. Has been for the last couple years. Anthem has 4 suits. Warframe has 38 (each feeling entirely different). It's weapons are more varied. It's enemies are more varied. The gun and abilities aren't randomized they are based in a collectable card system. You get your own spaceship that you can walk around and decorate(mine has a fish tank with fish I caught from an open world section via a fishing game). The enemies are bullet spungy instead they're are tons of them. It has a legitimately interesting world and story. It even has pets. You want a space cat or space dog and have it fight with you. You can have that.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to sell you on it because that's not what I'm trying to do here. I just feel like people forget that Warframe is there. And if your looking for a great 4 person coop shooter where your always chasing after something cool. Your describing Warframe. That's what the game is.

 

[SonOfDaws]

PSA:

Spoiler

The GOTY is coming out tomorrow.

 

[Hakuteiken]

I mean, like I said I'm biased. Warframe has been a staple in my life for literally years. So feel free to ignore absolutely everything I'm about to say.

That having been said Warframe is the best and it's free.

It is a polished experience now. Has been for the last couple years. Anthem has 4 suits. Warframe has 38 (each feeling entirely different). It's weapons are more varied. It's enemies are more varied. The gun and abilities aren't randomized they are based in a collectable card system. You get your own spaceship that you can walk around and decorate(mine has a fish tank with fish I caught from an open world section via a fishing game). The enemies are bullet spungy instead they're are tons of them. It has a legitimately interesting world and story. It even has pets. You want a space cat or space dog and have it fight with you. You can have that.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to sell you on it because that's not what I'm trying to do here. I just feel like people forget that Warframe is there. And if your looking for a great 4 person coop shooter where your always chasing after something cool. Your describing Warframe. That's what the game is.

Well, you can bait me all you want, no worries. That's something all gamers do here and there, not evil. Sharing of the passion for games you enjoy.

That said, I just played Destiny, and while the variety in loot and even the type of enemies in a very short time window (played to level 5) felt good, the atmosphere of the game felt really dull. The vibrant environment in Anthem is one of the reasons I enjoy that game despite all the bugs. I wonder where Warframe falls in that sense.

 

[Jammin]

Well, you can bait me all you want, no worries. That's something all gamers do here and there, not evil. Sharing of the passion for games you enjoy.

That said, I just played Destiny, and while the variety in loot and even the type of enemies in a very short time window (played to level 5) felt good, the atmosphere of the game felt really dull. The vibrant environment in Anthem is one of the reasons I enjoy that game despite all the bugs. I wonder where Warframe falls in that sense.

Best way to see that is to look it up on Youtube, I think.

The general way it's set up is that most missions take place in a "tile set" which is procedurally put together, kind of like Diablo. The universe has 18 of these planet type zones each with a uniquely themed tile set. Some are industrial, futuristic, forested. They all look really good I think, but that's just my opinion.

Then in addition to that there are currently two "open world" zones (Earth and Venus). Where you can fly around and do a different range of activities and get various cools stuff. Like on Venus you can get a hoverboard which I like using to Tony Hawk my way around. And then at night you can fight huge end game raid bosses there. Each of these also has a village hub which is like an MMO social zone.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 7, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 7, 2019 ---

If your really interested I'd recommend watching Skillup's review. It pretty much sums pretty much everything there is to know about it.

 

[TrienDarkform]

Another thumbs up for Warframe, though I don't have quite the same amount of hours as Jammin (about 400-some, I think?), and am a relatively newer player.

It's one of those games which has a somewhat weird aesthetic that took a little bit of getting used to, but what I would consider very well conceived game design from a gameplay standpoint... all else aside, it just 'feels' right when I'm playing, and it's fun. And I have to admire the sheer creativity and audacity they put into it (along with the sci-fi-fantasy universe they've created that allows them the freedom to do all of that)--I mean, who else would be so crazy as to have a music-themed suit that includes a freaking music sequencer (highly simplified, of course) where you can put in your own tunes, and the timing of which is something you take into account when using said skills in combat...

 

[Jammin]

Another thumbs up for Warframe, though I don't have quite the same amount of hours as Jammin (about 400-some, I think?), and am a relatively newer player.

It's one of those games which has a somewhat weird aesthetic that took a little bit of getting used to, but what I would consider very well conceived game design from a gameplay standpoint... all else aside, it just 'feels' right when I'm playing, and it's fun. And I have to admire the sheer creativity and audacity they put into it (along with the sci-fi-fantasy universe they've created that allows them the freedom to do all of that)--I mean, who else would be so crazy as to have a music-themed suit that includes a freaking music sequencer (highly simplified, of course) where you can put in your own tunes, and the timing of which is something you take into account when using said skills in combat...

I love Octavia. Almost as much as I love torturing my fellow tenno with an endless loop of the Bleach theme Asterisk.

 

[TrienDarkform]

I've been looking for a new tune to enter into Octavia, but haven't found anything else that I've been happy with so far; maybe I'll end up doing something original, though I'm not particularly good at writing drum parts.

Been running this for the last while:

Taken from one of the opening lines of the Jazz Jackrabbit Medivo level music, since I like it's more elaborate drum rhythm, but I only ended up using the drum and bass lines due to none of the melody notes being in the right range at all.

Edit: Gonna post the full Jazz Jackrabbit music piece here as well, since it's amongst my favourite video game songs of all time, and deserves a full listen through instead of just 4 bars of it

 

[Hakuteiken]

I did look into some gameplay last night. Sadly, the environment in most of the videos represented a space sci-fi fantasy. My space tolerance is at about Tatooine level (hence I managed to enjoy NieR: Automata until I had to play as 9S and stop). There were a few which felt more open world, however. The Plains of Eidolon gameplay I ran into is one example.

However, one aspect each type of warframe seem to share are how alien their looks are, and that's not something I'm really into. Bit of a turn-off how they have many characters to play but I have next to no options for my own taste. This is not to say it's the game's fault, but most of the playable characters look like they could blend in with the Destiny 2 mobs I'm killing right now as a level 5 character. Mobs having such visuals is of lesser importance, but when your character has a similar feel, it feels more robotic to me. Destiny 2 suffers from this dehumanization syndrome, as well. Then again, all I would need would be one character that I can like and that'd be it, since I hardly play most of the characters in games I play (I play one suit in Anthem almost exclusively, as well).