Discussion The Holy war

[OtakuFreak]

True, you're right in that he isn't exactly the world's friendliest host. But neither the worst. Granted i'm not too sure he would've physically restrained her if she tried to leave. It's more like he was giving her choices but at the same time pushing his choice as the better option. After all he took the hit, and didnt rush out after her slaughtering everything in his path to find her. Was more of a "fine whatever do what you want, im still becoming DK tho".

Agreed.

After his death at the hands of the ten commandments, things moved on. Sure they were sad, and they remembered him from time to time, but life went on. Elizabeth didn't kill herself, nor did she cry 24/7. Sure she was struggling inside but nonetheless, that's part of grief. Under that curse, those happy moments are left shadowed by the deep realization that the worst pain they've ever felt, is underway. And will continue to be underway, for eternity. So even though Mel won't be around, like any loss, it's a deep pain that will eventually subside. However if the curse was left as is, this very pain that Mel carries around, the very pain that would be inflicted upon the sins, (whom which 99% can live for thousands of years), will continue for centuries upon centuries.

I mean, Elizabeth's reaction to his death in the anime would be basically how she would react if she realised he was DK and could never be saved.
And plus, didn't Elizabeth say living in a world with Meliodas is unbearable? Her reaction was just like Meliodas, but with her memories, it would be even worse since she has knowledge of hers and Meliodas past.

So Elizabeth being in pain without memories, is only a small representative example of how she would react to Meliodas being the DK and forever gone.

And plus, even though the curse was active, Meliodas, Merlin, and Gowther (idk if he knew at the time) still had joyful times with Elizabeth and everyone else, and even though they have the ''oh shit she's cursed'' at the back of their heads, they still had happy moments and times. In fact, Meliodas reaction to being unable to cope with anymore of her deaths, is a testament to how powerful his love

Indeed, they are just doing what they feel is best for themselves. Mel wants to stop seeing her die for another 106 times, and Elizabeth wants her man back to who he used to be. Personally I think Mel has more of a justification but that's subjective.

It's a difficult debate on which side to choose, but I'd be slightly more inclined to side with Elizabeth since: Meliodas decision doesn't really end their suffering, but only breeds more, you can see how devastated Elizabeth is at Heaven's Theatre when she just cries at a memory of him and her together, just imagine how much more tears she would shed if he left her permanently.

Plus, I definitely agree with Elizabeth's opinion. There's really no point to release the curse, if it ends up creating more suffering and splitting the star-crossed lovers.

Meliodas may as well be permanently dead to the sins if he ends up being DK, because they'll never see him again.,

Well inactive on a grand scale sure, but not in Purgatory. Especially not as far as the sins are concerned. They had no clue whether he was nerfed or not when they decided on Mel's rescue mission, and they hardheartedly believed that the DK was personally guarding Mel. They were literally willing to let Ban face down the DK in all his glory. I imagine they'd have the same conviction. Granted they'd probably fail, but back to my previous point on having to make sacrifices lol. He no longer bares that gruesome pain for eternity, and Elizabeth gets to live and not have the sins deal with her death over and over. Not to mention forgetting them. Sure she'll try to save him, but it'd be pointless and hopefully she'd move on as she sort of did after his death against the TC. Well I think she did, i'll have to re-read those chapters. Think she believed he'd return or something, which I guess she used hope to cope with the pain. In any case she was dealing with it in her own way.

To be fair, she never moved on after his death.
She agreed that living in a world without him was too painful.

I still don't agree with what Meliodas is doing, because he's only making himself and everyone around him suffer so a curse can be lifted. And considering the situation, would you rather lose someone for eternity, or have someone die, come back to you, have happy times and then repeat?

Doubt it, those gods are selfish dicks lol

I'm sure they could offer something to their parents though?

From Ludoshel's offer, it sounded like the Supreme Goddess wants Elizabeth's complete obedience, which sounds better than being cursed for eternity and being unable to see your lover.

Who knows, perhaps she's already planning and we don't know. Perhaps she's the one behind the goddesses revival. I doubt she's completely inactive though.

And since Ludoshel commented on Elizabeth's curse, made an offer for it, then preached her name when sealing the alliance with Elizabeth - it insinuates that she's definitely active, and ready to move most likely.

He never went ''In the Supreme Goddesses name!'' before, but decides to do it in front of Elizabeth, the God's own daughter?

Seems fishy to me.

I'd be very happy if she has a plan that can both save her and Mel. Such a happy ending is ideal. But if it turns out she's just blindly going in with the hopes of just saving Mel and shrugging off the curse as a sort of "Well, we'll deal with that later" then i'll always side with Mel's plan as it actually brings results.

I'm actually expecting Meliodas to fail becoming Demon King, leading Elizabeth to be in a desperate situation, since she probably won't save Meliodas prior to the deadline, and to do so, she obviously can't die, so the Supreme Goddess may capitalise on this and offer to remove the curse if she decides to follow her mother under strict conditions or something.

It would be much more interesting in my opinion. Imagine Elizabeth with 30 minutes left to live and her mother comes out of nowhere and makes the offer, and she accepts? At least then the main issue is solved and stopping Meliodas from becoming Demon King is a better choice now, since there is no need for him to become DK anymore.

It's either Demon King Meliodas or Supreme Goddess that releases the curse, or she dies.

A) DK Meliodas puts the plot in a tricky position - how do you save a God? Friendship speeches? Lover's power up?

B) Seems like the best option. Gets rid of the main issue, doesn't put Nakaba in a corner with how to deal with God Meliodas (which to be frank, the option/route Elizabeth has to take is obvious). Creates further tension for Elizabeth's character, and even development as we see her interact with her mother and probably try to save Meliodas whilst under the conditions of the deal with her.

Nakaba better do this plz xd

C) Yeah, no. Timeskip is the worst decision here.
If she dies, it means Meliodas fails or we have to go on a quest to find the new Elizabeth, which is... not interesting.

It was an interesting read. Personally I think the fact that he's already so hard to kill, is part of why it's so tough on him. While Elizabeth recollects all of her memories in those 3 days, (some of course most likely terrible memories), he has had 3,000 years to think of ways to break the curse only to no avail. That pressure that you mentioned, is nothing minor. Knowing your loved one will continue dying, and you'll continue witnessing it for eternity, while also knowing that you, and ONLY you, can do something about that, but at the same time can't, (because breaking the 10c's seal means the literal apocalypse so you have to find another alternative) is absolute hell. Not to mention knowing that the only other solution is becoming "that guy' and taking it by force, but knowing that becoming 'that guy' will turn you into an absolute monster. A monster whom would harbor no love for Elizabeth. The same Elizabeth he'd spent 3000 years watching over, and watching her die, only to no longer love her? All of that, to throw away his feelings? Those things are what went through his mind. It's why he broke down, and it's why he lost his mind and went into Assault Mode. I'm sorry but Elizabeth doesn't even compare.

It's not easy for Elizabeth either.

Sure she's blissfully unaware about her life/curse but when the 3-day period activates it's absolute hell for her, even worse than Meliodas imo.

I mean, for one, you know you're going to die, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Imagine if you had 3 days to live to say goodbye to your family and friends? Then be reborn and make new ones and leave them all behind.

Or have 3 days to live, but instead of having great last moments with everyone around you, you instead have to fight in a war and try to save your lover with a internal deadline always at the back of your head. You'd be so desperate the more that deadline got closer.

I imagine Elizabeth remembers having so many special family and friends by now, she gets more terrified per life to die since she's going to leave more behind.

And it's not like she has such privileged lifetimes either. Elizabeth Liones is probably the best life she'll have, but every new life = possible shit situations. What if she was sexually assaulted? Murdered? Kidnapped? Tortured to death? Starve to Death? It's obvious you would never want to remember any of that, but she remembers all of it when she gets her memories back.

Honestly, it's not an easy question on who's situation is worse, because pain is always a subjective opinion. Personally, I'd rather watch my lover die because I would always know that they would come back to me, and that I can fall in love with them again and treasure them. Unlike on the other side, where you can do absolutely nothing to your situation, are tremendously guilty about your situation because it's all down to your lover to end this cycle and find you again etc.

 

[Raiyan]

@OtakuFreak @Commanderaxe Ya all need to chill and relax a bit, give your fingers some rest . That is some long ass discussion you guys are having

 

[Commanderaxe]

Agreed.



I mean, Elizabeth's reaction to his death in the anime would be basically how she would react if she realised he was DK and could never be saved.
And plus, didn't Elizabeth say living in a world with Meliodas is unbearable? Her reaction was just like Meliodas, but with her memories, it would be even worse since she has knowledge of hers and Meliodas past.

So Elizabeth being in pain without memories, is only a small representative example of how she would react to Meliodas being the DK and forever gone.

And plus, even though the curse was active, Meliodas, Merlin, and Gowther (idk if he knew at the time) still had joyful times with Elizabeth and everyone else, and even though they have the ''oh shit she's cursed'' at the back of their heads, they still had happy moments and times. In fact, Meliodas reaction to being unable to cope with anymore of her deaths, is a testament to how powerful his love

She'd definitely be in worse pain with her memories, but to me its just better than her constant death. After all emotional pain can subside, but this curse cannot.

It's a difficult debate on which side to choose, but I'd be slightly more inclined to side with Elizabeth since: Meliodas decision doesn't really end their suffering, but only breeds more, you can see how devastated Elizabeth is at Heaven's Theatre when she just cries at a memory of him and her together, just imagine how much more tears she would shed if he left her permanently.

Plus, I definitely agree with Elizabeth's opinion. There's really no point to release the curse, if it ends up creating more suffering and splitting the star-crossed lovers.

Meliodas may as well be permanently dead to the sins if he ends up being DK, because they'll never see him again.,

Yea it would certainly hurt like a bitch. But if that means Mel no longer has to watch her die for eternity, and she no longer has to put not only the sins in tremendous pain, but all the countless other's(mother's, father's, children, siblings) all from different lives who would have to deal with her death, then I feel it's worth it. A sacrifice above all other's, and one that draws a conclusion to a terrible terrible curse.

To be fair, she never moved on after his death.
She agreed that living in a world without him was too painful.

Well yea, she was in pain, but she got off her feet day after day, and carried on. I think she'd have the strength to continue on the rest of her mortal life (assuming the curse leaves her as a human which I think it would)

I still don't agree with what Meliodas is doing, because he's only making himself and everyone around him suffer so a curse can be lifted. And considering the situation, would you rather lose someone for eternity, or have someone die, come back to you, have happy times and then repeat?

That's fair, after all he is causing a hell of a lot of suffering himself. Personally though i'd rather know they're alive out there, than have to watch them die countless times in front of me. Because it's as you said, they'd remember each painful event that's previously happened to them, on top of having 3 days to accept their imminent death(which is probably the nastiest part of her curse). Hell actually what would be worse is them not remembering who I am for 99% of the time. Over and over and over I have to introduce myself, and over and over they have to learn who I am and how much I love them. Fuck all of that lol i'd just rather know they're out there doing their thing, but alive. Then live out the rest of my mortal life and die knowing they're safe.

I'm sure they could offer something to their parents though?

From Ludoshel's offer, it sounded like the Supreme Goddess wants Elizabeth's complete obedience, which sounds better than being cursed for eternity and being unable to see your lover.

And since Ludoshel commented on Elizabeth's curse, made an offer for it, then preached her name when sealing the alliance with Elizabeth - it insinuates that she's definitely active, and ready to move most likely.

He never went ''In the Supreme Goddesses name!'' before, but decides to do it in front of Elizabeth, the God's own daughter?

Seems fishy to me.

But what would that entail? No doubt she'd just want her daughter to assist her in eliminating demons or to forget about Mel forever and we'd be right back to where we started lol.

I'm actually expecting Meliodas to fail becoming Demon King, leading Elizabeth to be in a desperate situation, since she probably won't save Meliodas prior to the deadline, and to do so, she obviously can't die, so the Supreme Goddess may capitalise on this and offer to remove the curse if she decides to follow her mother under strict conditions or something.

It would be much more interesting in my opinion. Imagine Elizabeth with 30 minutes left to live and her mother comes out of nowhere and makes the offer, and she accepts? At least then the main issue is solved and stopping Meliodas from becoming Demon King is a better choice now, since there is no need for him to become DK anymore.

It's either Demon King Meliodas or Supreme Goddess that releases the curse, or she dies.

A) DK Meliodas puts the plot in a tricky position - how do you save a God? Friendship speeches? Lover's power up?

B) Seems like the best option. Gets rid of the main issue, doesn't put Nakaba in a corner with how to deal with God Meliodas (which to be frank, the option/route Elizabeth has to take is obvious). Creates further tension for Elizabeth's character, and even development as we see her interact with her mother and probably try to save Meliodas whilst under the conditions of the deal with her.

Nakaba better do this plz xd

C) Yeah, no. Timeskip is the worst decision here.
If she dies, it means Meliodas fails or we have to go on a quest to find the new Elizabeth, which is... not interesting.

A .could potentially be where Nakaba ends the series setting up Mel as the main villain for Arthur. Although not directly of course, more like Mel's minions.

B. B is pretty cool too, although what would the offer be? And would it fit with the plot? After all if the offer is to take up the throne as Supreme Diety, how would that work, would Elizabeth absorb the rest of the graces to fit the position? Would she suddenly begin to train for it?

C. C would be bad in the sense that it would be already drawn out by then. Although if she dies and the story ends continuing off with Arthur's story having him find her and picking things off from there, it wouldnt be so bad, but its still not the ideal route.

All things considered i'd probably rather A but it's a shounen so it won't happen lol

It's not easy for Elizabeth either.

Sure she's blissfully unaware about her life/curse but when the 3-day period activates it's absolute hell for her, even worse than Meliodas imo.

I mean, for one, you know you're going to die, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Imagine if you had 3 days to live to say goodbye to your family and friends? Then be reborn and make new ones and leave them all behind.

Or have 3 days to live, but instead of having great last moments with everyone around you, you instead have to fight in a war and try to save your lover with a internal deadline always at the back of your head. You'd be so desperate the more that deadline got closer.

I imagine Elizabeth remembers having so many special family and friends by now, she gets more terrified per life to die since she's going to leave more behind.

And it's not like she has such privileged lifetimes either. Elizabeth Liones is probably the best life she'll have, but every new life = possible shit situations. What if she was sexually assaulted? Murdered? Kidnapped? Tortured to death? Starve to Death? It's obvious you would never want to remember any of that, but she remembers all of it when she gets her memories back.

Honestly, it's not an easy question on who's situation is worse, because pain is always a subjective opinion. Personally, I'd rather watch my lover die because I would always know that they would come back to me, and that I can fall in love with them again and treasure them. Unlike on the other side, where you can do absolutely nothing to your situation, are tremendously guilty about your situation because it's all down to your lover to end this cycle and find you again etc.

While those memories, as well as knowing you would die are extremely tragic circumstances to be in, they are for three days at the end of it. That's not even counting the fact that Elizabeth has also died of old age as confirmed by Nakaba himself. How many times? We don't really know. But there certainly can be moments she lives a full mortal life without being frightened by imminent death or remembering those painful moments. As for the tragic moments, she has 3 days until she receives the gift of ignorance. It's a heavy burden, but quite light compared to Mel's 3,000 years of mental torture. Although I suppose we're comparing 2 different types of pain really but you can even see it here

Spoiler

Been 3,000 since the man even let himself drink. 3,000 years. Hell Zaratras even says he would've killed himself. All the while i'm sure Elizabeth has been to numerous parties, and had numerous friends and family. Sure she's had pain as well, but that is easily forgotten in the next life except for 3 days. Coupled with that fact that she doesn't always remember, it's a lighter burden to bear imo.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Well yea, she was in pain, but she got off her feet day after day, and carried on. I think she'd have the strength to continue on the rest of her mortal life (assuming the curse leaves her as a human which I think it would)

But so did Meliodas.

He was in pain when Elizabeth dies each time but he still does his day to day thing. Where's the difference?

And as for the curse being lifted, it should return her to being a Goddess, considering how the curse makes her human, and even so, she's shown the ability to manifest Goddess wings. So in essence, once the curse is lifted she should be able to ascend to her original body, just like Sariel and Tarmiel have done.

That's fair, after all he is causing a hell of a lot of suffering himself. Personally though i'd rather know they're alive out there, than have to watch them die countless times in front of me. Because it's as you said, they'd remember each painful event that's previously happened to them, on top of having 3 days to accept their imminent death(which is probably the nastiest part of her curse). Hell actually what would be worse is them not remembering who I am for 99% of the time. Over and over and over I have to introduce myself, and over and over they have to learn who I am and how much I love them. Fuck all of that lol i'd just rather know they're out there doing their thing, but alive. Then live out the rest of my mortal life and die knowing they're safe.

But what would that entail? No doubt she'd just want her daughter to assist her in eliminating demons and we'd be right back to where we started lol.

Complete obedience itself would probably what she wants.

And ''we'd be right back to where we started'' - what u mean?

A .could potentially be where Nakaba ends the series setting up Mel as the main villain for Arthur. Although not directly of course, more like Mel's minions.

B. B is pretty cool too, although what would the offer be? And would it fit with the plot? After all if the offer is to take up the throne as Supreme Diety, how would that work, would Elizabeth absorb the rest of the graces to fit the position? Would she suddenly begin to train for it?

A) Mhm, I'd rather not see this, since I would prefer the series to end with Meliodas being on the good side.

B) If it was to be her successor, I imagine she would want it to happen immediately, and hence, Grace absorption would be the route to go.

While those memories, as well as knowing you would die are extremely tragic circumstances to be in, they are for three days at the end of it. That's not even counting the fact that Elizabeth has also died of old age as confirmed by Nakaba himself. How many times? We don't really know. But there certainly can be moments she lives a full mortal life without being frightened by imminent death or remembering those painful moments. As for the tragic moments, she has 3 days until she receives the gift of ignorance. It's a heavy burden, but quite light compared to Mel's 3,000 years of mental torture. Although I suppose we're comparing 2 different types of pain really but you can even see it here

''The Gift of ignorance'' isn't always good, because as I said, you have to experience different life times, which entail something completely different every time. Not every life is going to be privileged or free from any fear of death, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she had experienced some horrible shit in a couple of lifetimes: such as being murdered, tortured, sexually assaulted, watched her family and friends die maybe etc.

So while yes, Elizabeth does become indirectly ignorant because of the curse, that doesn't mean she gets to live every lifetime perfectly without suffering. For all we know, most of her lifetimes could end being completely shitty. And when you regain your memories, you have to temporarily re-live all of those shitty moments.

Sure, some lifetimes she can have the perfect life, like the one where she lives to old age I imagine, but at the same time, the same can apply to Meliodas. What if him and Elizabeth have the perfect ''human'' life for 50-60 years? Death comes to everyone and whilst the curse would be on his mind, death is always a natural process for everybody. So what separates his pain from an average human having to process death too? Unlike everyone else, Meliodas gets to experience a potential perfect life all over again with Elizabeth, something not everybody has.

Been 3,000 since the man even let himself drink. 3,000 years. All the while i'm sure Elizabeth has been to numerous parties, and had numerous friends and family. Sure she's had pain as well, but that is easily forgotten in the next life except for 3 days. Coupled with that fact that she doesn't always remember, it's a lighter burden to bear imo.

Except sometimes she doesn't get to party and have numerous friends and family every lifetime.
Meliodas life is eternal, so therefore it should be consistent, why can't he find happiness in other areas of his life besides Elizabeth? Sure, it's painful to be with her, but he still gets the chance to have great friends like Ban, Merlin, Gowther (etc) for a long period of time

 

[Commanderaxe]

But so did Meliodas.

He was in pain when Elizabeth dies each time but he still does his day to day thing. Where's the difference?

And as for the curse being lifted, it should return her to being a Goddess, considering how the curse makes her human, and even so, she's shown the ability to manifest Goddess wings. So in essence, once the curse is lifted she should be able to ascend to her original body, just like Sariel and Tarmiel have done.

Ah you're right. I guess she'd have to live out the rest of her goddess life then however long that is.

Complete obedience itself would probably what she wants.

And ''we'd be right back to where we started'' - what u mean?

Well if it's complete obedience, then no doubt she'd want her daughter have nothing to do with Mel. So whether she lets Mel become DK, or accepts her mother's position, either option has her never seeing Mel again. The very outcome she wants to avoid. Only difference is that Mel would be in brittania while Elizabeth's off in the Goddess realm doing her thing. Both instances have them separated and in pain. At least with Mel's plan he wouldnt have to feel all of that, only Elizabeth would. Accepting her mother's position would leave them both in a world of hurt, (assuming she returns Mel's emotions upon accepting the offer of course).

A) Mhm, I'd rather not see this, since I would prefer the series to end with Meliodas being on the good side.

B) If it was to be her successor, I imagine she would want it to happen immediately, and hence, Grace absorption would be the route to go.

That'd be a bit of a bummer ripping out the archangels best aspect and giving it to Elizabeth. Then what would be the point of having such an army in the first place? She'd be effectively stripping her soldiers of their main fire power. At least with the demons they still retain almost all of their power minus the curse of the commandments(which aren't effective against goddesses anyway). Although I guess if he was to make her Supreme Deity he'd best end the manga right then and there.

''The Gift of ignorance'' isn't always good, because as I said, you have to experience different life times, which entail something completely different every time. Not every life is going to be privileged or free from any fear of death, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she had experienced some horrible shit in a couple of lifetimes: such as being murdered, tortured, sexually assaulted, watched her family and friends die maybe etc.

So while yes, Elizabeth does become indirectly ignorant because of the curse, that doesn't mean she gets to live every lifetime perfectly without suffering. For all we know, most of her lifetimes could end being completely shitty. And when you regain your memories, you have to temporarily re-live all of those shitty moments.

Sure, some lifetimes she can have the perfect life, like the one where she lives to old age I imagine, but at the same time, the same can apply to Meliodas. What if him and Elizabeth have the perfect ''human'' life for 50-60 years? Death comes to everyone and whilst the curse would be on his mind, death is always a natural process for everybody. So what separates his pain from an average human having to process death too? Unlike everyone else, Meliodas gets to experience a potential perfect life all over again with Elizabeth, something not everybody has.

.

The gift of ignorance is good for those exact reasons lol. Despite all of those hardships she will only remember for 3 days. Not to mention it clearly hasn't had such a lasting effect on her psyche. At least not to the level it has for Mel who has broken down on several occasions. Hell she even saved the man who was about to slaughter her friends and kidnapped her, from falling to the ground. I'm not sure if that would be the same girl who's been tortured, murdered, and sexually assaulted dozens of times. Unless she's just THAT nice, but you'd expect someone with such graphic experiences to be a bit more hardened about the world. It's quite clear she's on the soft side, and i find it hard to believe someone could continue being so soft towards the most vile individuals on the planet, after experiencing things like that. If she can, then that's just a negative to her character imo. It's flat out far too unrealistic for me, and that says alot in a manga with dragons and shit.

Except sometimes she doesn't get to party and have numerous friends and family every lifetime.
Meliodas life is eternal, so therefore it should be consistent, why can't he find happiness in other areas of his life besides Elizabeth? Sure, it's painful to be with her, but he still gets the chance to have great friends like Ban, Merlin, Gowther (etc) for a long period of time

Because he made a promise to the love of his life, and it's as he said to Zaratras, before he met Ban and other's, he hadnt had a drink in 3,000 years. Meliodas, a straight up drunk. I mean honestly that's how hard he's worked on it, only to fail. Only stopping to really let loose and have some fun after so long. That's not even adding the fact of how hard it must be to live for straight up 3,000 years. As Zaratras claimed, he'd wanna die. It's a lot to deal with. As he was breaking down in tears on her shoulder, she was comforting him, blissfully unaware of whatever the hell he was talking about. THAT'S the benefit that her curse has over his. She'll surely experience some terrible things(which at this point we cant even say how bad they were, or how frequent they were.) Hell we can't even definitively say for sure if she's even been sexually assaulted or the likes. It's probably likely, but it's still just assumption. Based on all the facts that we've read, Meliodas has had it worst, both from how each of them have acted in reaction to the curse, as well as the things we've seen them witness.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Well if it's complete obedience, then no doubt she'd want her daughter have nothing to do with Mel. So whether she lets Mel become DK, or accepts her mother's position, either option has her never seeing Mel again. The very outcome she wants to avoid. Only difference is that Mel would be in brittania while Elizabeth's off in the Goddess realm doing her thing. Both instances have them separated and in pain. At least with Mel's plan he wouldnt have to feel all of that, only Elizabeth would. Accepting her mother's position would leave them both in a world of hurt, (assuming she returns Mel's emotions upon accepting the offer of course).

Elizabeth would probably still do it in order to save Meliodas. Her doing this is no different than what Meliodas is doing for her to be honest.

Since Meliodas doesn't have emotions whilst Elizabeth does, who knows, she might be able to see him still?

That'd be a bit of a bummer ripping out the archangels best aspect and giving it to Elizabeth. Then what would be the point of having such an army in the first place? She'd be effectively stripping her soldiers of their main fire power. At least with the demons they still retain almost all of their power minus the curse of the commandments(which aren't effective against goddesses anyway). Although I guess if he was to make her Supreme Deity he'd best end the manga right then and there.

Sariel and Tarmiel have been foreshadowed to ''die'' or at least, lose their original bodies, returning them back into wandering spirits. If they disappear, why not hand over Ocean and Tornado as a gift to Elizabeth? They seem quite loyal to her, and it would help her save Meliodas and defeat the Demons since holding on to them whilst being a wandering spirit has no benefit. Escanor is also foreshadowed to die, so in my opinion, he isn't going to keep sunshine, he either dies whilst holding it, or gives it up before it can fully kill him. If he decides to give it up, then I'm sure he would give it to Elizabeth since he isn't exactly unfriendly with her. Ludoshel's the tricky one, he'd never give Flash to Elizabeth since he doesn't like her, but if he realised that he absolutely had to (e.g the Supreme Goddess demands it, or he needs to if they want to win the war) then there's a chance he might.

In fact, it's possible Elizabeth might take the Graces without her mother's influence, since the current holders of each grace have been foreshadowed to ''die'' in a sense, and I don't see why she wouldn't take them if they were right there in front of her, it's extra power at no cost I believe. Now, even if the AA's were to lose this power, it's not like they are power-less. Ludoshel still has his ark which seems very powerful, and if the other two AA are no longer around, then there isn't much consequence of them losing their graces. Obviously Escanor losing sunshine is disappointing, since his entire power is based on it, so he would be reduced to fodder if he lost it, but if he came to a point where he had to give it up to avoid death, then that's just a reality we all have to accept.

Plus, seeing Elizabeth essentially become God herself isn't exactly a bad deal. Meliodas already looks fun and amazing whilst doing it, someone else doing it as well is always more entertainment lol.

The gift of ignorance is good for those exact reasons lol. Despite all of those hardships she will only remember for 3 days. Not to mention it clearly hasn't had such a lasting effect on her psyche. At least not to the level it has for Mel who has broken down on several occasions. Hell she even saved the man who was about to slaughter her friends and kidnapped her, from falling to the ground. I'm not sure if that would be the same girl who's been tortured, murdered, and sexually assaulted dozens of times. Unless she's just THAT nice, but you'd expect someone with such graphic experiences to be a bit more hardened about the world. It's quite clear she's on the soft side, and i find it hard to believe someone could continue being so soft towards the most vile individuals on the planet, after experiencing things like that. If she can, then that's just a negative to her character imo. It's flat out far too unrealistic for me, and that says alot in a manga with dragons and shit.

It's not like she hasn't changed because of the curse. Elizabeth with her memories is much more mature and less naive. I mean, 3000 years ago in the first holy war, she wasn't accepting any conflict and didn't want any suffering or death to happen in the war, but this time around she still tries to avoid conflict and death if it's possible, but also accepts that it might happen. And from what I remember, she kept arguing with Ludoshel 3000 years ago, but this time she seems to ignore him more lol.

So it's not like she hasn't changed, but I've got to admit it's not the change you would expect. I'd imagine anyone in her position would lose their pacifistic ideals along the journey of 3000 years of suffering and become more cold/distant. But then again, maybe her love for Meliodas is keeping her in check from becoming like that. After all, Meliodas was essentially still the same person from 3000 years ago before his death happened and the Demon King stole his emotions. But if he never did, he would've essentially stayed as the similar person as he was when he was with the original Elizabeth, in pain but still true to himself (e.g he was still friendly and kind to people, just like how Elizabeth is).

Because he made a promise to the love of his life, and it's as he said to Zaratras, before he met Ban and other's, he hadnt had a drink in 3,000 years. Meliodas, a straight up drunk. I mean honestly that's how hard he's worked on it, only to fail. Only stopping to really let loose and have some fun after so long. That's not even adding the fact of how hard it must be to live for straight up 3,000 years. As Zaratras claimed, he'd wanna die. It's a lot to deal with. As he was breaking down in tears on her shoulder, she was comforting him, blissfully unaware of whatever the hell he was talking about. THAT'S the benefit that her curse has over his. She'll surely experience some terrible things(which at this point we cant even say how bad they were, or how frequent they were.) Hell we can't even definitively say for sure if she's even been sexually assaulted or the likes. It's probably likely, but it's still just assumption. Based on all the facts that we've read, Meliodas has had it worst, both from how each of them have acted in reaction to the curse, as well as the things we've seen them witness.

It's honestly an agree to disagree at this point.

Personally, I'd rather not be under Elizabeth's curse, since it makes you heavily guilty for the situation and unable to really do anything for yourself (e.g you're unable to break the curse yourself, it's all down to Meliodas), end up having to gamble every life to chance really, is it going to be a good or shit life? And if it's either then I have the pleasure of remembering all of it for the 3 day period. And then during the 3 day period I'm basically going to have to accept that I'm going to leave behind my lover and that's beyond words to really explain.

They both have it tough. But if I had to choose it would be Meliodas curse because eternal life + always having your lover come back to you seems like the better scenario to me, if you compare it to dying and leaving your lover behind in pain at least.

Pain is always subjective so it's interesting to see how we disagree lol

 

[Commanderaxe]

Elizabeth would probably still do it in order to save Meliodas. Her doing this is no different than what Meliodas is doing for her to be honest.

Since Meliodas doesn't have emotions whilst Elizabeth does, who knows, she might be able to see him still?

Doubt it, Supreme Deity would most likely want the dude dead. Or at least far away from Elizabeth,especially with no emotions. I don't sense a shred of empathy from those gods. I don't really think they're pure evil per se, but more like pure selfish lol.

Sariel and Tarmiel have been foreshadowed to ''die'' or at least, lose their original bodies, returning them back into wandering spirits. If they disappear, why not hand over Ocean and Tornado as a gift to Elizabeth? They seem quite loyal to her, and it would help her save Meliodas and defeat the Demons since holding on to them whilst being a wandering spirit has no benefit. Escanor is also foreshadowed to die, so in my opinion, he isn't going to keep sunshine, he either dies whilst holding it, or gives it up before it can fully kill him. If he decides to give it up, then I'm sure he would give it to Elizabeth since he isn't exactly unfriendly with her. Ludoshel's the tricky one, he'd never give Flash to Elizabeth since he doesn't like her, but if he realised that he absolutely had to (e.g the Supreme Goddess demands it, or he needs to if they want to win the war) then there's a chance he might.

In fact, it's possible Elizabeth might take the Graces without her mother's influence, since the current holders of each grace have been foreshadowed to ''die'' in a sense, and I don't see why she wouldn't take them if they were right there in front of her, it's extra power at no cost I believe. Now, even if the AA's were to lose this power, it's not like they are power-less. Ludoshel still has his ark which seems very powerful, and if the other two AA are no longer around, then there isn't much consequence of them losing their graces. Obviously Escanor losing sunshine is disappointing, since his entire power is based on it, so he would be reduced to fodder if he lost it, but if he came to a point where he had to give it up to avoid death, then that's just a reality we all have to accept.

Plus, seeing Elizabeth essentially become God herself isn't exactly a bad deal. Meliodas already looks fun and amazing whilst doing it, someone else doing it as well is always more entertainment lol.

Possibly, they might either die or they might purge Estarossa together with Elizabeth similar to the Induras back then. After all theres a bit too many death flags going around to kill that much people lol. Escanor, archangels, King and Diane with the marriage shit, possibly Elizabeth. I feel the archangels will live, Escanor will die, MAYBE king or Diane will die(definitely not both), and Elizabeth will live.

Generally though it depends on what Elizabeth does with the graces. Does it become some Naruto vs Sasuke shit at the end? Meh a bit out done imo. Or does she become SD, goes back into the heavens, and the series end? That's acceptable and a pretty good conclusion, although it'd leave Mel alone, and assuming his emotions return, heartbroken.

It's not like she hasn't changed because of the curse. Elizabeth with her memories is much more mature and less naive. I mean, 3000 years ago in the first holy war, she wasn't accepting any conflict and didn't want any suffering or death to happen in the war, but this time around she still tries to avoid conflict and death if it's possible, but also accepts that it might happen. And from what I remember, she kept arguing with Ludoshel 3000 years ago, but this time she seems to ignore him more lol.

So it's not like she hasn't changed, but I've got to admit it's not the change you would expect. I'd imagine anyone in her position would lose their pacifistic ideals along the journey of 3000 years of suffering and become more cold/distant. But then again, maybe her love for Meliodas is keeping her in check from becoming like that. After all, Meliodas was essentially still the same person from 3000 years ago before his death happened and the Demon King stole his emotions. But if he never did, he would've essentially stayed as the similar person as he was when he was with the original Elizabeth, in pain but still true to himself (e.g he was still friendly and kind to people, just like how Elizabeth is).

A bit more mature but still a bit naive and overly-friendly. She ignored him this time cause she could afford to however, last time she absolutely had to stop his interference. But she has indeed matured but not to the point i'd imagine someone going through all that to have matured. And while Meliodas was friendly, he was also no-nonsense. He slaughtered demons, he killed his former-teammates(Calmadios), and continued to do ruthless things even after he originally died, he was just more overall merciful. Elizabeth on the other hand, is so merciful to the point where she feels empathy for straight up cruel killers. I doubt she really has witnessed the worst of the worst.

It's honestly an agree to disagree at this point.

Personally, I'd rather not be under Elizabeth's curse, since it makes you heavily guilty for the situation and unable to really do anything for yourself (e.g you're unable to break the curse yourself, it's all down to Meliodas), end up having to gamble every life to chance really, is it going to be a good or shit life? And if it's either then I have the pleasure of remembering all of it for the 3 day period. And then during the 3 day period I'm basically going to have to accept that I'm going to leave behind my lover and that's beyond words to really explain.

They both have it tough. But if I had to choose it would be Meliodas curse because eternal life + always having your lover come back to you seems like the better scenario to me, if you compare it to dying and leaving your lover behind in pain at least.

Pain is always subjective so it's interesting to see how we disagree lol

True. I'm not discounting her pain though. It's unfathomable amount of grief for those last 3 days, my point is that it's only those 3 days, while Mel has mental torture for thousands of other ones. Even the fact that he has his lover coming back to him, is also mental torture cause he know's she'll just die again before his very eyes. During each of those happy moments is that constant thought playing over and over and over as a sort of "when is she going to die, when is she going to die". That's torture for me lol. It's why even though I'd hate the shit out of Elizabeth's curse, those worries would not be very frequent, especially considering I won't always remember. But it is subjective though. Kinda like how some people would prefer freezing to death over burning to death (fuck either option though)

 

[OtakuFreak]

Doubt it, Supreme Deity would most likely want the dude dead. Or at least far away from Elizabeth,especially with no emotions. I don't sense a shred of empathy from those gods. I don't really think they're pure evil per se, but more like pure selfish lol.

The Demon King seems fine with Meliodas still associating himself with Elizabeth when he's being his successor, so maybe the Supreme Goddess will be the same with Elizabeth?

Maybe she just wants her back and doesn't care if Elizabeth ends up still having small contact with Meliodas? Even if Elizabeth agreed to a condition where she had to forego Meliodas in order for the curse to be released, I heavily doubt she would stay true to it, she would probably end up breaking the deal and as a result just piss off her mother again lol

Possibly, they might either die or they might purge Estarossa together with Elizabeth similar to the Induras back then. After all theres a bit too many death flags going around to kill that much people lol. Escanor, archangels, King and Diane with the marriage shit, possibly Elizabeth. I feel the archangels will live, Escanor will die, MAYBE king or Diane will die(definitely not both), and Elizabeth will live.

At the minimum they'll go back to being wandering spirits, since their bodies won't last for long.

Generally though it depends on what Elizabeth does with the graces. Does it become some Naruto vs Sasuke shit at the end? Meh a bit out done imo. Or does she become SD, goes back into the heavens, and the series end? That's acceptable and a pretty good conclusion, although it'd leave Mel alone, and assuming his emotions return, heartbroken.

If it does end up being Supreme Goddess Elizabeth vs Demon King Meliodas then I imagine Elizabeth would win for the *plot* and then maybe she and Meliodas come together and 2v2 their parents again? Basically a battle of the Old Gods vs New Gods.

This is one reason why I find it strange that the Demon King is so willing to just hand over half his power to Meliodas. It's already said he couldn't trust one person with too much power because it would be a huge threat to him, yet now he's willing to put himself back into that position for Meliodas. Meliodas only agenda to become Demon King is to release the curse, so what happens when he gets the position, releases the curse, then once again betray's his father? His father can't do anything now considering he's God level too.

Either his father is stupid or Meliodas isn't planning on betraying the Demon Clan once again.

A bit more mature but still a bit naive and overly-friendly. She ignored him this time cause she could afford to however, last time she absolutely had to stop his interference. But she has indeed matured but not to the point i'd imagine someone going through all that to have matured. And while Meliodas was friendly, he was also no-nonsense. He slaughtered demons, he killed his former-teammates(Calmadios), and continued to do ruthless things even after he originally died, he was just more overall merciful. Elizabeth on the other hand, is so merciful to the point where she feels empathy for straight up cruel killers. I doubt she really has witnessed the worst of the worst.

I'm just saying that even with the curse active, both Meliodas and Elizabeth still stayed true to themselves.

Meliodas personality is less merciful than Elizabeth, but at the same time he stayed that way even after the curse was active, and it was only when the Demon King took his emotions that he changed.

So if Elizabeth's lack of change means she hasn't really ''witnessed'' the worst of the worst, then that also means Meliodas pain over the 3000 years isn't as significant as we think because he didn't change as well without his father's intervention.

But that's incorrect, so her not changing much in character doesn't mean she hasn't witnessed ''the worst of the worst'' imo

But it is subjective though. Kinda like how some people would prefer freezing to death over burning to death (fuck either option though)

Basically this lol - no matter which situation you choose it's still a horrible situation to be in.

 

[Commanderaxe]

The Demon King seems fine with Meliodas still associating himself with Elizabeth when he's being his successor, so maybe the Supreme Goddess will be the same with Elizabeth?

Maybe she just wants her back and doesn't care if Elizabeth ends up still having small contact with Meliodas? Even if Elizabeth agreed to a condition where she had to forego Meliodas in order for the curse to be released, I heavily doubt she would stay true to it, she would probably end up breaking the deal and as a result just piss off her mother again lol



At the minimum they'll go back to being wandering spirits, since their bodies won't last for long.

Then she probably shouldnt accept any offer lol. Perhaps overthrowing both gods in the end is the way to go. Also Tamriel and Sariel are dying? I'll have to read that again

If it does end up being Supreme Goddess Elizabeth vs Demon King Meliodas then I imagine Elizabeth would win for the *plot* and then maybe she and Meliodas come together and 2v2 their parents again? Basically a battle of the Old Gods vs New Gods.

This is one reason why I find it strange that the Demon King is so willing to just hand over half his power to Meliodas. It's already said he couldn't trust one person with too much power because it would be a huge threat to him, yet now he's willing to put himself back into that position for Meliodas. Meliodas only agenda to become Demon King is to release the curse, so what happens when he gets the position, releases the curse, then once again betray's his father? His father can't do anything now considering he's God level too.

Either his father is stupid or Meliodas isn't planning on betraying the Demon Clan once again.

I feel that route is way too predictable for Nakaba. I definitely don't see those two fighting, not with Nakaba's writing, but as a collective team effort by the entire team to stop Mel and return his emotions. Either that or his memories are returned before he fully becomes DK.

I'm just saying that even with the curse active, both Meliodas and Elizabeth still stayed true to themselves.

Meliodas personality is less merciful than Elizabeth, but at the same time he stayed that way even after the curse was active, and it was only when the Demon King took his emotions that he changed.

So if Elizabeth's lack of change means she hasn't really ''witnessed'' the worst of the worst, then that also means Meliodas pain over the 3000 years isn't as significant as we think because he didn't change as well without his father's intervention.

But that's incorrect, so her not changing much in character doesn't mean she hasn't witnessed ''the worst of the worst'' imo


Basically this lol - no matter which situation you choose it's still a horrible situation to be in.

Well Mel's pain was more emotional, and his breakdowns have shown the effect the curse has had on him. As we've heard him say he hadnt even drank in 3,000 years meaning he never really let loose all of that time. Breakdowns combined with countless centuries dedicated on a futile mission, you can see the weary. Elizabeth on the other hand, not really much of a peep. She still cheerfully bounced around, joked around with folks, saved Estarossa, etc etc. And while Mel did the same alot, the manga showed his weakest moments, him beneath the shell, especially during those times he opened up about the hardships. I'm sure Elizabeth's been in pain too, but as far as we've seen, she hasn't showed it. Not to the extent Mel has.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Then she probably shouldnt accept any offer lol. Perhaps overthrowing both gods in the end is the way to go. Also Tamriel and Sariel are dying? I'll have to read that again

Spoiler

They are going to lose their original bodies from the sound of it, so they will return to being wandering spirits. So basically, in a sense, they are ''dying'' since they can't physically exist anymore by themselves.

I feel that route is way too predictable for Nakaba. I definitely don't see those two fighting, not with Nakaba's writing, but as a collective team effort by the entire team to stop Mel and return his emotions. Either that or his memories are returned before he fully becomes DK.

Then again Elizabeth emphasised that she wanted to save Meliodas, so I feel like Nakaba would make her the one to save Meliodas, or if it's in a team setting, then she would be the main contributor.

 

[Commanderaxe]

Spoiler

They are going to lose their original bodies from the sound of it, so they will return to being wandering spirits. So basically, in a sense, they are ''dying'' since they can't physically exist anymore by themselves.



Then again Elizabeth emphasised that she wanted to save Meliodas, so I feel like Nakaba would make her the one to save Meliodas, or if it's in a team setting, then she would be the main contributor.

Damn how the hell did that happen. Is it because they weren't fully reformed?

She will contribute as leader to the sds for sure, and even be the one to purge him, but a full on dragonballz Elizabeth vs Mel I just can't see it.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Damn how the hell did that happen. Is it because they weren't fully reformed?

Yup, they didn't have enough time to fully restore their original bodies, hence why they won't be able to maintain them for long = death

She will contribute as leader to the sds for sure, and even be the one to purge him, but a full on dragonballz Elizabeth vs Mel I just can't see it.

But I want my God battle

 

[Commanderaxe]

Yup, they didn't have enough time to fully restore their original bodies, hence why they won't be able to maintain them for long = death



But I want my God battle

Well fuck I actually like those guys. God dammit -_-

Lol that'd be interesting but idk I dont like the thought of those two fighting dragonballz type battles with each other. It just hasnt been built up for that type of relationship to me. Like I picture Meliodas and Escanor's fight, then I picture the same with Meliodas and Elizabeth and just nope the fuck out

 

[Gut's is the man]

So peoples opinions?

 

[Gut's is the man]

How long would that take hm? You don’t know. Hope for? To utterly eliminate all opposition?

So dolor and gloxinia were brainwashed into joining the gc? So you are telling me that it is more reasonable that the alliance was due to brainwashing rather then consent? You think that having little evidence of the dc attacking the other clans before the war is evidence to state that they were brainwashed rather than extrapolating that the other clans joining the gc against the dc may indicate their own grievances? So my answer is yes that is more or less what I am getting at.

Yes why indeed. We either have powerful kings brainwashed or they consented due to their own grievances. The fact that you disregard the second point is rather bizzare

When both sides stood and decided for themselves. Liz and Mel accomplished nothing, their justification lost all weight, the war only intensified and both sides more isolated. they did nothing but made a already tense situation worse.

We don't have little evidence that the demons were attacking the other clans before the holy war, we have none. No attacks outside of the Celestial realm have been shown, no comment from either side about attacking the other clans have been stated. Nothing alluding to the demons having fought the other clans before. (in fact Pumps comment in the Prisoner of Heaven prequel manga imply that they only fought against the goddess.) Explain that to me. Explain why the other clans joined when so far they had never faced the demons before. Why the goddess were given brainwashing powers if not to imply that the other clans were tricked into fighting the holy war.

I disregarded no point. No grievances were stated, they may well have hated the DC due purely to goddess propaganda. If the gods can inflict unbreakable to any other then them, curse that resurrect someone no matter what or reincarnation and then destined death no matter what, why would brainwashing the kings or tricking them be beyond the Supreme deities or her servants power?

 

[Inuhanyou123]

They caused the holy war. But their original intentions were completely empathetic and their solution to start Stigma was also commendable

So i dont really see any reason to criticize the outcome

 

[Gut's is the man]

They caused the holy war. But their original intentions were completely empathetic and their solution to start Stigma was also commendable

So i dont really see any reason to criticize the outcome

How was starting stigma commendable? All it did was gather up every other clan, (without inviting the demons. Which is a notable leap) in a clear platform to be dominated byt he goddess. They didn't even start it.

...... you do know all Mel betraying his clan did was cause a massive war, which he and Liz both took part in even though their intentions were to end the fighting.

 

[Arjuna]

Mel is responsible mostly,had he not betrayed the Demon Clan this war would not have happened

 

[revo]

Meliodas betrayed his clan but the Demons weren't saints either. The war already existed, It's not like the world was at peace before Meliodas left. He knew it, and wanted a way to stop it. But the fandom never blames the people that took adventage of his choice, it's always "if Meliodas never had..." but he had a different reason, he didn't want other clans to take adventage to it.

The war between Demons and Goddesss didn't start beause of Elizabeth and Meliodas, they took a descision and the Goddess Clan took adventage of it.
I agree with the fact that Mel and Eli choices weren't completely good, but you guys always talk about them as if they did it on porpuse and they actually wanted a bloody war or something.
They wanted peace, did it work? No.
Their choices were partly wrong? Yes. But you it's always said that they caused this war when the ones who did it are the Gods. They're the ones that caused the discrimination between clans, they're the ones who have dumb racist rules of "omg demons and goddess cant be together".

What I mean is, people acts as if Meliodas and Elizabeth caused 100% of the war and deaths. The thousand of deaths were because of both clans that always wanted to kill eacher other, because of the DK and the SD.
They both took risky choices but only wanted a world without war. Why nobody never blames the two gods, the AA, the TC and the rest? Seriously this "Meliodas and Elizabeth are the ones who caused the war" is getting exaggerated.

I'm not saying they're saints, but they aren't the villans the fandom makes them look either.

 

[Gut's is the man]

Meliodas betrayed his clan but the Demons weren't saints either. The war already existed, It's not like the world was at peace before Meliodas left. He knew it, and wanted a way to stop it. But the fandom never blames the people that took adventage of his choice, it's always "if Meliodas never had..." but he had a different reasion, he didn't want other clans to take adventage to it.

The war between Demons and Goddesss didn't start beause of Elizabeth and Meliodas, they took a descision and the Goddess Clan took adventage to it.
I agree with the fact that Mel and Eli choices weren't completely good, but you guys always talk about them as if they did it on porpuse and they actually wanted a bloody wat or something.
They wanted peace, did it work? No.
Their choices were partly wrong? Yes. But you always say that they caused this war an the ones who did it are the Gods. They'rethe ones that causes the discrimination between clans, they're the ones who have dumb racist rules of "omg demons and goddess cant be together".

What I mean is, people acts as if Meliodas and Elizabeth caused 100% of the war and deaths. The thousand of deaths were because of both clans that always wanted to kill eacher other, because of the DK and the SD.
They both took risky choices but only wanted a world without war. Why nobody never blames the two gods, the AA, the TC and the rest? Seriously this "Meliodas and Elizabeth are the ones who caused the war" is getting exaggerated.

I'm not saying they're saints, but they aren't the villans the fandom makes them look either.

We do not make them out as villains. We make them out as idiots.