Discussion The Holy war

[Savior]

The first part of your sentence is incomprehensible. I have no idea what you are trying to say about Meliodas and the holy war. Try saying it more clearly next time so reading your post doesn't feel like a waste of time.

As for the part you said later in the sentence about Meliodas 'probably snapping',you're just making stuff up with no evidence.

Except they weren't just fighting to survive, they moved on to genocidal methods intent on wiping out the other race completely. Most people would agree that that's bad.

Ok I'll say it clearer ,meliodas stopping the holy war isnt vague because he cant be together with Elizabeth another reason is because people are dying .The second part is that we didnt see the back story or never viewed the events back in that time so we dont know if they talked about it or not ,or if they tried or not ,or they made a plan or not ,so you saying it makes no sense.If your people are dying and you can stop the war by destroying the other side then thats still fighting for survival ,you going back and forth and you only care about your race then its logical to take out the other race

 

[youngodin]

That's just not true, though. Merlin didn't directly destroy her own town and shouldn't be seen the same way as Zeldris or Ludociel. That was just the SD and DK taking vengeance indirectly, something she may not have even predicted. And even if she did know they would probably do it, that doesn't make it her fault that they do so. There's simply nothing to be done about it if she wants to get what she wants out of them. It was pretty worth it for her to get the Dark arts of the Demon Realm. Imagine if she didn't have Perfect Cube, everyone would have died against Garan. Gowther being a rapist was oddly ignored but it could be reasonably argued that current Gowther with emotions is practically a different person than his former emotionless self. There should still have been punishment , but a full on death penalty for the current Gowther doesn't make sense. Meliodas blowing up Danafor wasn't his choice and it wouldn't make sense to kill him for it since he is needed to guard the seal. These are all clearly incomparable things.

Basically you're just throwing out blanket statements with no evidence and it's embarassing. Please stop and prove points one by one. I understand Mael and Ludociel being very guilty and that this shouldn't have been ignored as it was, but 'most of the sins' are definitely not suddenly worthy of being killed off.

Doesn't matter she knew it would piss the gods off but did it anyway and decided to fuk with them.her knowledge and ability being useful isnt a justifacation for what she did lol a whole civilization being dead cuz she wants more hax lol. Lol gowther once he got his heart and memory agreed to take the full responsibility of the shit he did he fuked with people's minds and he a rapist every person estarossa killed kind of his fault but I don't think he was the worst but still bad. Meliodas nuked a whole kingdom cuz he was angry, Liz dead = a whole kingdom nuked I understand his trauma at that time but still. When he worked for DK he was killing people left and right. Your whole point is that the plot needs them to be there of course they are MCs they still did bad things lol if zeldris bad they are just as bad lmao.

 

[Merlin918]

Doesn't matter she knew it would piss the gods off but did it anyway and decided to fuk with them.her knowledge and ability being useful isnt a justifacation for what she did lol a whole civilization being dead cuz she wants more hax lol. Lol gowther once he got his heart and memory agreed to take the full responsibility of the shit he did he fuked with people's minds and he a rapist every person estarossa killed kind of his fault but I don't think he was the worst but still bad. Meliodas nuked a whole kingdom cuz he was angry, Liz dead = a whole kingdom nuked I understand his trauma at that time but still. When he worked for DK he was killing people left and right. Your whole point is that the plot needs them to be there of course they are MCs they still did bad things lol if zeldris bad they are just as bad lmao.

If she didn't have Perfect Cube everyone would just be dead against Garan. It's 100% justifiable. What's even your argument about Gowther? You say he agreed to take responsibility and then just say nothing. What do you think should've happened? Them executing Gowther? Name a specific punishment or just stop wasting my time. He had to mindcontrol Mael to stop the war from ending in a mass genocide, it works.

So what, nobody said Meliodas was good for nuking Danafor. I already explained how that was dealt with the wrong way and he should've had his darkness sealed. But it would be stupid to try to execute Meliodas for what he did in Danafor. No other punishment would be lasting as he can regenerate from any wound anyways. What else would Bartra do, put him in jail? No reason, he is needed to guard the seal on his sword.

Meliodas was fundamentally a lot different than Zeldris even during the Holy War. He fought but did not go on to agree with a mass genocide plan. Zeldris did and was the one who approved the soul eating genocide plan Derierre suggested. Is killing a lot of soldiers on the enemy side equivalent to mass slaughtering civilians and also destroying their souls? Obviously not. One is mass genocide on innocent civilians and the other is fighting in a war and killing enemies on the opposing side. The difference is undeniable.

Anyway, I disproved all your points. Try harder next time by actually outlining the logic behind why they are 'just as bad'. If you concede you are wrong or at least acknowledge some of the points where I am right then that would make this seem maybe somewhat worth it for me to the point where I might want to continue discussing it.

Ok I'll say it clearer ,meliodas stopping the holy war isnt vague because he cant be together with Elizabeth another reason is because people are dying .The second part is that we didnt see the back story or never viewed the events back in that time so we dont know if they talked about it or not ,or if they tried or not ,or they made a plan or not ,so you saying it makes no sense.If your people are dying and you can stop the war by destroying the other side then thats still fighting for survival ,you going back and forth and you only care about your race then its logical to take out the other race

If we didn't see the backstory directly, that doesn't give you any evidence to work with for proving that your point of view has superior validity to mine. What we were shown is Meliodas and Elizabeth stopping a war crime, so the evidence is in my favor. We know they were trying to stop it from turning into a war of genocide, this was explained in the manga.

Genocide isn't an act of self defense. If the Demons or Goddesses just wanted to win the war, all they would need to do is kill all the enemy soldiers. Mass genocide is a switch to clearly malicious intent where the goal is to totally exterminate the other race rather than stop them. This is basic logic in real life as well. After my perfectly concise response you failed to understand anything so I have low expectations now. I'd rather you just realized that you are incorrect, but even if you did it would hardly feel worth it, to be honest. I have nothing to gain as a result of that other than informing you something you should have known over 50 chapters earlier in the manga, assuming you've been up to date for a while. But it'd at least be better if you found out quickly rather than needing a lengthy series of continued explanations to understand something you should have known a long time ago, a series I do not really see a point in giving.

 

[youngodin]

If she didn't have Perfect Cube everyone would just be dead against Garan. It's 100% justifiable. What's even your argument about Gowther? You say he agreed to take responsibility and then just say nothing. What do you think should've happened? Them executing Gowther? Name a specific punishment or just stop wasting my time. He had to mindcontrol Mael to stop the war from ending in a mass genocide, it works.

So what, nobody said Meliodas was good for nuking Danafor. I already explained how that was dealt with the wrong way and he should've had his darkness sealed. But it would be stupid to try to execute Meliodas for what he did in Danafor. No other punishment would be lasting as he can regenerate from any wound anyways. What else would Bartra do, put him in jail? No reason, he is needed to guard the seal on his sword.

Meliodas was fundamentally a lot different than Zeldris even during the Holy War. He fought but did not go on to agree with a mass genocide plan. Zeldris did and was the one who approved the soul eating genocide plan Derierre suggested. Is killing a lot of soldiers on the enemy side equivalent to mass slaughtering civilians and also destroying their souls? Obviously not. One is mass genocide on innocent civilians and the other is fighting in a war and killing enemies on the opposing side. The difference is undeniable.

Anyway, I disproved all your points. Try harder next time by actually outlining the logic behind why they are 'just as bad'. If you concede you are wrong or at least acknowledge some of the points where I am right then that would make this seem maybe somewhat worth it for me to the poin

Nope a dozen knights and the sins saved does not equal a whole civilization wiped out. Meliodas before his betrayal was most likely doing the same things zeldris was doing if the DK was stated to want to conquer the land with his commandments meaning meliodas objective was to conquer the land so the " just killing a alot of goddess soldiers" statement doesn't make any sense when meliodas was the leader before his betrayal and doing the exact same things zeldris was doing to conquer the land for the DK. In a previous reply you stated monspeit and derieri deserved to be killed for doing way less than meliodas. If the people you are crucifying for doing shitty things respected meliodas before he betrayed them that says alot. My point is that they all did shitty things and wanted to do good at some point why can't zeldris do the same why does he have to be taken out. You did not disprove my points you just said why them being killed is detrimental to the plot which is true they are MCs they can't die but I'm saying they still did bad things just like zeldris and wanted to be better.

 

[Merlin918]

Nope a dozen knights and the sins saved does not equal a whole civilization wiped out.

Completely incorrect. Without the Sins and Meliodas the Commandments would have won the war. This is common sense. She also needed Perfect Cube several other times like in restraining Meliodas and Escanor inside it later on. And again, she was not the one wiping out the civilization. It's the act of the gods, they're responsible. That is the fundamental point of agency and free will in the first place, she knew they would do it as retribution but she can't exactly go and defeat the Gods. If she hadn't manipulated the Gods to make herself much stronger, she wouldn't have been able to help as much at key points later on like vs Chandler and Cusack, vs Grayroad, and so on, and the good guys would have lost to the commandments. End result:Humanity goes extinct with their souls erased from existence. But I suppose you're too stupid to understand that.

Meliodas before his betrayal was most likely doing the same things zeldris was doing

Show proof he did. Oh wait, you forgot to do that. All that remains is your illogical headcanon which makes no sense and contradicts the established motives of Holy War Meliodas.

if the DK was stated to want to conquer the land with his commandments meaning meliodas objective was to conquer the land so the " just killing a alot of goddess soldiers" statement doesn't make any sense when meliodas was the leader before his betrayal and doing the exact same things zeldris was doing to conquer the land for the DK.

That's circular reasoning. You never showed proof that he did the same things Zeldris ordered like mass extermination of civilians and the destruction of their souls. In fact that is blatantly disproven by him killing Aranak and Zeno to prevent them from killing a lot of innocent prisoners of war. You have zero proof and I already have proof you are false as shown with Aranak and Zeno.

In a previous reply you stated monspeit and derieri deserved to be killed for doing way less than meliodas. If the people you are crucifying for doing shitty things respected meliodas before he betrayed them that says alot. My point is that they all did shitty things and wanted to do good at some point why can't zeldris do the same why does he have to be taken out. You did not disprove my points you just said why them being killed is detrimental to the plot which is true they are MCs they can't die but I'm saying they still did bad things just like zeldris and wanted to be better.

But Derierre and Monspiet fundamentally changed their approach in the new holy war compared to the old one. Meliodas did not let them commit mass genocide back when he was the leader of the ten commandments. More importantly, you NEVER showed that they did 'way less' than Meliodas, you had zero proof whatsoever. This makes it all very tiresome for me to repeat myself.

Your 'point' is objectively incorrect, though. Just try to even begin imagine being a human in Camelot in the NNT world. Half the villages you know have been wiped out and chances are many of your friends have had their souls eaten, which means they were erased completely from existence, making it so it's like they never even existed, so they can NEVER come back to existence in any form. And this is a world where there is an afterlife that can be proven to exist by magic so you know they could have survived after death but are now gone forever. Now when you finally come free of the Piety commandment that has been turning you into a mind controlled slave of Zeldris for the past month, and realize your whole country of Camelot is utterly devastated and even the king was very nearly killed by Zeldris, what do you think of this guy who ruined your whole country? Obviously you want him to be executed. Basically all Humans would see him as the very symbol of evil and want him to die no matter what. I normally hesitate to say this, but he is quite literally a 'Hitler' type character. He ordered mass genocide and went as far as to even order destruction of all of their souls. Are you saying that he is somehow still redeemable and deserving of life after ordering all that? Seriously?

I did disprove your points and you failed to recount precisely how i 'didn't disprove' them. I already showed you how Gowther is nowhere near as bad as Zeldris, and the same is true with Merlin and Meliodas. Mass spiritual genocide vs an emotionless robot who raped Guila, something that is not punished with execution even in real life. Or vs Merlin getting a superpower and being helpless to stop the Gods from wiping out her hometown in revenge. Or Meliodas accidentally nuking a city. Which admittedly was a huge mistake, and I agreed with you that it was handled wrong, but in any case, they should not have tried to execute Meliodas. You never even bothered to mention how you think they should have treated Meliodas differently than they did in the manga, showing your intellectual laziness.

You weren't paying attention at all really. I wonder what the point is in me elaborating every detail when you don't even have the attention span to read it all? Probably there is none. I am just wasting my time as you seem too dense to understand these basic things. Seriously, just get a clue. I'm not gonna bother any longer unless your next post has you admitting all the points where I am right. I almost feel like you are genuinely too stupid to understand me. Of course, if you put in a little bit of effort, you could start understanding it all on the same level as me and be just as 'smart' in understanding relatively simple plot points that 80% of all commenters in the chapters understood long ago, but it feels like you're just not gonna try hard enough to see this simple things so neither will I try any longer to enlighten you on it unless you start admitting where your understanding falls short.

 

[youngodin]

Completely incorrect. Without the Sins and Meliodas the Commandments would have won the war. This is common sense. She also needed Perfect Cube several other times like in restraining Meliodas and Escanor inside it later on. And again, she was not the one wiping out the civilization. It's the act of the gods, they're responsible. That is the fundamental point of agency and free will in the first place, she knew they would do it as retribution but she can't exactly go and defeat the Gods. If she hadn't manipulated the Gods to make herself much stronger, she wouldn't have been able to help as much at key points later on like vs Chandler and Cusack, vs Grayroad, and so on, and the good guys would have lost to the commandments. End result:Humanity goes extinct with their souls erased from existence. But I suppose you're too stupid to understand that.

How tf would merlin know she would save those people I think u got timelines fuked up the people she saved thousands of years later has nothing to do with her greed for more power. Show me were in this scan that she did it to save people no she did it cuz she was greedy for more power or else she wouldnt have played 2 gods like that hence why she is gluttony. I agree that her saving people and stopping the commandments later on made her a better person but saying those actions in the past for anything other than greed doesn't make sense it says she wanted gifts of her liking knowing each side would want her as her own and knowing damn well there will be consequences.

Show proof he did. Oh wait, you forgot to do that. All that remains is your illogical headcanon which makes no sense and contradicts the established motives of Holy War Meliodas.

Meliodas was known to be ruthless and did not care about people's lives even stated by the demon king himself to be the most ruthless and evil knowing zeldris exist well whatever here are the statements.

But Derierre and Monspiet fundamentally changed their approach in the new holy war compared to the old one. Meliodas did not let them commit mass genocide back when he was the leader of the ten commandments. More importantly, you NEVER showed that they did 'way less' than Meliodas, you had zero proof whatsoever. This makes it all very tiresome for me to repeat myself.

The reason why they did way less than meliodas are the statements from the scans above by estarossa and the demon king himself the most "ruthless,disregard for life and evil " statements when the demon king and estarossa know monspeit,derieri, and zeldris exist.

You have zero proof and I already have proof you are false as shown with Aranak and Zeno.

This is a good point but it is possible that this happened when he met Elizabeth meaning he wasn't fully on their side seeing as how they state this happens right before his betrayal.

Your 'point' is objectively incorrect, though. Just try to even begin imagine being a human in Camelot in the NNT world. Half the villages you know have been wiped out and chances are many of your friends have had their souls eaten, which means they were erased completely from existence, making it so it's like they never even existed, so they can NEVER come back to existence in any form. And this is a world where there is an afterlife that can be proven to exist by magic so you know they could have survived after death but are now gone forever. Now when you finally come free of the Piety commandment that has been turning you into a mind controlled slave of Zeldris for the past month, and realize your whole country of Camelot is utterly devastated and even the king was very nearly killed by Zeldris, what do you think of this guy who ruined your whole country? Obviously you want him to be executed. Basically all Humans would see him as the very symbol of evil and want him to die no matter what. I normally hesitate to say this, but he is quite literally a 'Hitler' type character. He ordered mass genocide and went as far as to even order destruction of all of their souls. Are you saying that he is somehow still redeemable.

Never said zeldris was good Yeah that is evil and ruthless for zeldris to do apparently way less less ruthless and evil than meliodas stated by the demon king and estarossa. Meliodas was redeemable even if he was stated to be the most ruthless and evil leader of the ten commandments.

I did disprove your points and you failed to recount precisely how i 'didn't disprove' them. I already showed you how Gowther is nowhere near as bad as Zeldris, and the same is true with Merlin and Meliodas. Mass spiritual genocide vs an emotionless robot who raped Guila, something that is not punished with execution even in real life. Or vs Merlin getting a superpower and being helpless to stop the Gods from wiping out her hometown in revenge. Or Meliodas accidentally nuking a city. Which admittedly was a huge mistake, and I agreed with you that it was handled wrong, but in any case, they should not have tried to execute Meliodas. You never even bothered to mention how you think they should have treated Meliodas differently than they did in the manga, showing your intellectual laziness.

My point was not that they should all be executed My point was that they all did shitty things fuked up things and wanted to make up for it I agree with you on gowther but my point still stands with Meliodas and Merlin they are not gonna take out the MCs little brother if so nabaka has balls. Meliodas is stated to be the most ruthless and evil of them all before he met Elizabeth and is somehow redeemable.

 

[Merlin918]

How tf would merlin know she would save those people I think u got timelines fuked up the people she saved thousands of years later has nothing to do with her greed for more power. Show me were in this scan that she did it to save people no she did it cuz she was greedy for more power or else she wouldnt have played 2 gods like that hence why she is gluttony. I agree that her saving people and stopping the commandments later on made her a better person but saying those actions in the past for anything other than greed doesn't make sense it says she wanted gifts of her liking knowing each side would want her as her own and knowing damn well there will be consequences.

Obviously Merlin can't just see the future, so sure, that does put her whole decision in a worse light. I agree with you a bit more now on that but it doesn't change that she still seemingly got much stronger due to having moves like Perfect Cube that can block almost anything when her normal power level is limited. What threw that all into being nonsense was her BS power scaling where she is suddenly omnipotent with Double Impact and arbitrary limits of Infinity and so on. So overall you could say Merlin did a pretty criminal thing in choosing to do something she knew the gods would exact vengeance for, even if she wasn't the one to do it herself.

But how in the world is it equally bad for Merlin to be greedy and to let others get killed by the vengeance of the gods which they would often exact on other innocent people either way whether Merlin did anything or not, compared to Zeldris openly genociding tons of people and destroying their souls? That is not equivalent at all. Although Merlin's motives for getting stronger are important too and I would say her decision could be more evil as a result. For example, if she did all this for the sake of helping Elizabeth/Meliodas/etc win the war and prevent humans from either being exterminated or becoming slaves, it makes more sense and is morally more justifiable, but if she originally did it for the sole sake of her own greed, I agree that that's a lot worse.

Again tho, even that is nothing compared to the mass genocide Zeldris and Ludociel planned on doing. Also it would be better if you put such big pictures in spoilers so it's easy to read your post at a glance, but it's not a big deal.

Meliodas was known to be ruthless and did not care about people's lives even stated by the demon king himself to be the most ruthless and evil knowing zeldris exist well whatever here are the statements.

The reason why they did way less than meliodas are the statements from the scans above by estarossa and the demon king himself the most "ruthless,disregard for life and evil " statements when the demon king and estarossa know monspeit,derieri, and zeldris exist.

To be honest Nakaba is so vague with Meliodas's lore that it's very hard to get a clear picture. Remember he has also stated in other panels that Meliodas always saw the war as meaningless, but did it out of a sense of duty. Those could technically overlap in him being 'ruthless because he saw that as his duty', but it's still somewhat contradictory. As far as we know, Monspiet/Derierre weren't doing the same things back then of mass genocide on all civvies. Yes, Demons ate souls, as shown by the flashback with Garan asking if he could eat Elizabeth's souls, but they did not initially plan to mass genocide every other race. So the ruthlessness of Meliodas does not necessarily mean he was doing the same kind of thing as Derierre and the rest are doing in the more recent holy war arc. It just means he killed people without hesitation, not that he was killing innocents who were not part of the enemy armies. He might have been more of an evil character back before Elizabeth met him but the way he was after that was different.

Plus, can you really imagine Nakaba showing a flashback where Evil Meliodas ate people's souls before meeting Elizabeth? Like it's just not gonna happen, Nakaba would never do that, just as he would never give Zeldris the same treatment now that he's determined to make zeldris 'good'. Zeldris 'merely' ordered that to be done en mass, he didn't do the dirty deed himself. The 'meliodas is most powerful ruthless and evil demon' stuff is mainly for Meliodas Wank purposes in showing how strong he is and making him look cool.

This is a good point but it is possible that this happened when he met Elizabeth meaning he wasn't fully on their side seeing as how they state this happens right before his betrayal.

Never said zeldris was good Yeah that is evil and ruthless for zeldris to do apparently way less less ruthless and evil than meliodas stated by the demon king and estarossa. Meliodas was redeemable even if he was stated to be the most ruthless and evil leader of the ten commandments.

I agree to some extent on the vagueness and weirdness of this but it honestly may be due to the 'change' in the war. Like, Meliodas was the most evil and ruthless, but that was before the Demons were hellbent on mass genocide of all their enemies. Upon which Meliodas turned traitor and Zeldris took over as the one willing to enforce the DK's goal of genocide. So while I agree that it is way too vague and Nakaba should clarify the lore, I do think Meliodas is not supposed to have done the same sorts of things that Zeldris was willing to do, and that the DK was willing to do. As he is supposed to be better than them and have turned good and so on to be a good guy or else the whole lore makes a lot less sense. Maybe Evil Meliodas let other Demons eat souls of the soldiers of their enemies in battle as Garan's statement in 'Ten Commandments vs Four Archangels' showed that as 'normal', although that too might've been due to the shift in the war towards a genocidal focus. But I do know for sure that he at the very least didn't want a mass genocide way back in the original holy war, or he would've just ordered it, since he was the leader of the ten commandments.

My point was not that they should all be executed My point was that they all did shitty things fuked up things and wanted to make up for it I agree with you on gowther but my point still stands with Meliodas and Merlin they are not gonna take out the MCs little brother if so nabaka has balls. Meliodas is stated to be the most ruthless and evil of them all before he met Elizabeth and is somehow redeemable.

OK let me try to understand this. You basically agree about everybody but Meliodas and Merlin. But Merlin is nowhere near as bad as Zeldris and Ludociel and the SD and DK with their mass genocide goals. She was greedy and let other people take the fall for her, but it is just nowhere near as bad. Unless you are going to argue that it is as bad. Like, would you punish Merlin in any way for her 3000 year old crime if you were Bartra? Do you think Elizabeth/Meliodas/Drole/Gloxinia should have refused to accept Merlin on their side because of what she did? If you think nobody in any group should have punished her then I fail to see how you disliking what she did means anything, when if you were one of the characters, you would not want to do anything about it. And to be honest, it seems like her getting the Dark arts of the Demon Realm was pretty worth it, with how much Perfect Cube made her way more powerful.

And as for Meliodas, you are just going with a vague statement that does not prove any specific atrocities which you are assuming it does. And there is strong reason to assume he didn't do any massive atrocities despite how 'evil' he was supposed to be, he was just ruthless in killing his enemies or toying with them in battle. There is never going to be a flashback panel of Meliodas eating souls lol. Or of him killing a ton of innocent civvies. It just isn't in line with Nakaba's characterization of him, he was always supposed to be somewhat opposed to the war even when he was 'evil'. Just look at scenes like him saying he never acknowledged the DK as a father.

You are just assuming Meliodas did something utterly irredeemable like Zeldris because he was said to be evil and ruthless. We know he looked down on humans as lowly and vile as shown in his fight with Escanor, but there is no evidence he committed mass genocide upon them and intended to destroy their race. Nor is there any evidence he even ate any human souls or those of other races including Goddesses. All you have is headcanon which is contradicted by the facts available. I can agree somewhat on cases like Merlin being morally debatable depending on how you interpret it, but none of these characters really deserve to be killed. While Zeldris honestly does. The 'literally Hitler' argument is simply true with him, assuming my 'Piety mindcontrol' headcanon is false, which it probably is. He literally orders mass genocide on screen. If that doesn't make him evil and deserving to be killed then I don't know what does. What, is Meliodas supposed to spare the Demon King and Supreme Deity too?

Now I realize that at this point in the story it is 100% impossible that Nakaba will ever kill off Zeldris and everything shown indicates that it will never happen. Meliodas will never seek vengeance against him and the humans will conveniently forget about all the evil he has ever done. I am not saying it is going to happen, I am just saying that the Zeldris Redemption Arc either never should've happened, or Nakaba should have made him a mindcontrolled slave via the Piety commandment and so on forcing him to obey the DK's will. Like what would you do if you were Meliodas? Would you want to spare Zeldris after he turned that evil?
Meliodas's line of thinking right now lol:"Ok, Zeldris was going to genocide everyone including Elizabeth, but it's cool, who cares about any race but Demons anyways. All's well that ends well right?"
Just seems too ridiculous to me. I know this is a shonen but come on, there is no way he should be forgiven after all he has done. He is the MC's little brother, so by Nepotism he gets to be cleared of infinite war crimes? K then.