Discussion The Japanese Study Thread

Nihongaeri

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Re: For those wondering about the JLPT

njt said:
That's the first time (er that I can recall) Seeing kansaiben conjugated :p
Up, lots of interesting conjugation...

共通語 --> 大阪弁
買って --> こうて
買った --> こうた
買わない --> かわへん、かわん
買わなかった --> かわへんかった
買わなくてもいい --> かわんでもええ

It's actually fairly regular, so once you pick upon the rules it's a piece of cake.
 

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Re: For those wondering about the JLPT

Nihongaeri said:
Up, lots of interesting conjugation...

共通語 --> 大阪弁
買って --> こうて
買った --> こうた
買わない --> かわへん、かわん
買わなかった --> かわへんかった
買わなくてもいい --> かわんでもええ

It's actually fairly regular, so once you pick upon the rules it's a piece of cake.
actually now that I think about it, I have heard it quite a bit by ダウンタウン. though かわへんかった was the first time I've seen it and really thought it to be weird :p
 

Nihongaeri

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Re: For those wondering about the JLPT

njt said:
actually now that I think about it, I have heard it quite a bit by ダウンタウン. though かわへんかった was the first time I've seen it and really thought it to be weird :p
Yeah... Not all that uncommon to hear on TV. ダウンタウン, etc...

The only thing that I though was really weird the first time I heard it was something like かった being こうた in 関西弁, but it's not really all that different from "regular" Japanese in the end. It's actually become more like 共通語 with younger generations, whereas something like それやのうて(それじゃなくて) may now just be said as それやなくて. Interesting thing is, if you've ever wondered where おはよう comes from, it's from 関西弁 adjective conjugation just like that...

But I speak too much, forgive me.
 

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Re: For those wondering about the JLPT

Nihongaeri said:
Yeah... Not all that uncommon to hear on TV. ダウンタウン, etc...

The only thing that I though was really weird the first time I heard it was something like かった being こうた in 関西弁, but it's not really all that different from "regular" Japanese in the end. It's actually become more like 共通語 with younger generations, whereas something like それやのうて(それじゃなくて) may now just be said as それやなくて. Interesting thing is, if you've ever wondered where おはよう comes from, it's from 関西弁 adjective conjugation just like that...

But I speak too much, forgive me.
haha, well the dialect around here, used to end everything with むし
そうでむし it was taken from 申す but gradually became むし :p

ah- 田舎 is great :)
 

Nihongaeri

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Re: The Japanese Language

karasu said:
uh, i had an argument with my gf before...
is it 大学に勉強しました (daigaku ni benkyou shimashita -- studied in university) or 大学で勉強しました (daigaku de benkyou shimashita -- studied at university)? which one is the correct/more proper one?
Unfortunately (?) your girlfriend is right on this one. Although, you probably shouldn't feel too bad. If you google 大学に勉強 you'll find that a great number of the hits you get are of foreigners making the exact same mistake.[br]Posted at: April 17, 2006, 10:22:07 PM_________________________________________________
AyaK said:
I wanted to ask something. Since in Spain there's an oficial national exam (done in Barcelona and once a year) called "nihongo nouryoku shiken", I suppose it's the same in other countries, isn't it? :
The 日本語能力試験 (aka the "Japanese Language Proficiency Test", or JLPT, in English), is held all around the world. The English site is here: http://www.jees.or.jp/jlpt/en/index.htm[br]Posted at: April 17, 2006, 10:27:57 PM_________________________________________________
destinator said:
3000 to read a newspaper >_>?
Well, it's not as bad as it may sound... And for newspapers, they actually usually stick to the 1945 kanji defined by the so-called "jouyou kanji hyou" ("common use kanji list")... And even if you're only able to read a little over a thousand of the most common characters, that's more than enough to be able to derive at least some degree of meaningful understanding out of a newspaper article. In the end it's actually overall vocabulary/grammar knowledge that ends up being a bigger impediment on an individual's ability to read a newspaper or other printed material. There's TONS of words that I have absolutely no problem *reading* in Japanese, but only have a vague understanding of what they mean.
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

Nihongaeri said:
And even if you're only able to read a little over a thousand of the most common characters, that's more than enough to be able to derive at least some degree of meaningful understanding out of a newspaper article. In the end it's actually overall vocabulary/grammar knowledge that ends up being a bigger impediment on an individual's ability to read a newspaper or other printed material. There's TONS of words that I have absolutely no problem *reading* in Japanese, but only have a vague understanding of what they mean.
I'm not actually sure how many characters I can say I know... I probably know about 1,300 more or less well, with another 200 or 300 I can probably make out through context. That gets me through regular articles and Japanese RPGs, though sometimes not without a few headaches in the process (and a dictionary is always handy, just in case there's a key word I can't make out).

Most "high level" terms are compound Kanji words.

The "cool" (infuriating?) thing about compound Kanji words (words with two or more kanji) is that often, two or more of the characters which make up the word carry the same meaning, and when this isn't the case, it's often the more common Kanji which captures the semantic essence.

In the game I'm playing right now there is like a shit load lots of different compound words for castles, palaces and fortresses and the like, but all you need to know to get the gist are a couple of basic characters like 城、塔、堂, and you know they're talking about a "big, important building." All these characters are among the 1,500 most frequent, and two of them are among the 1,000 most frequent.

Note that if you stick to certain subject matter things are bound to go smoother. I think I know more than one non-standard character for weapons/armor that I would not know if I did not play Japanese RPGs.

I also doubt I would know that the character 古 can be read いにしえ (yore, more or less; antaño in Spanish) if I did not play games and read manga as much as I do.
 

Nihongaeri

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Re: The Japanese Language

Iwanin said:
I'm not actually sure how many characters I can say I know...
But what does it mean to "know" a kanji anyway? People seem to be so sure of the what it means to "know" a character until they really start thinking about the issue. The only conclusion that I've ever come to on the issue is that "kanji" have very little practical usage when removed from the context of a language that uses them, and to that extent one's knowledge of kanji cannot be readily represented with some arbitrary number...

(This, of course, isn't any kind of rebuke directed at you Pete, but more so the countless people that I have seen proudly assert that they know exactly XXXX kanji, many further claiming to have learned them in the course of X months. *sigh*... people...)
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

Nihongaeri said:
(This, of course, isn't any kind of rebuke directed at you Pete, but more so the countless people that I have seen proudly assert that they know exactly XXXX kanji, many further claiming to have learned them in the course of X months. *sigh*... people...)
Ah, Nicholas! Whatever happened to the good old days, when we would rebuke each other for hours on end over such trivial nonsense as the most suitable qualifier for Kisame's Samehada? Could it be we've - heaven forbid - grown civilized?

But I enjoy this bitching about the presumption of others rather than on account of one's own.

On that note, allow me to bitch about the "how many languages do you speak" thread, where people with a passing knowledge of one Romance Language or another would claim to "know" the rest by virtue of said fact; and where so many people claimed to speak Japanese that I wondered where it was that they kept their translations so well hidden, that I'd never seen them.

I was tempted, upon contemplating this phenomenon, to claim I spoke not only Spanish, English, a bit of French and some Japanese, but also Portuguese, Galician, Catalan, Italian and heck, why not Basque - it may not be lingüistically related to Romance Languages, but the Basque know either French or Spanish or both!

And that's not all! Since Kanji are technically Chinese and may be used to write Korean, I guess I'll add this last language plus at least Mandarin and Cantonese to my repertoire!

Truly, I know so many languages I amaze myself!

But yes, expressing one's ability to speak a given language is difficult. For instance, I say my English is at native speaker level, but then every native speaker I encounter says my English is better than that of 90% of the native speakers they know. Of course, I would actually put the number closer to 95% (at least), but that's not the point.

I don't consider myself fluent in Japanese, but then again I'm not quite sure what fluent means. I think what the nikyuu goukaku explanation says is about right: I can hold a conversation on general topics and read everyday articles well enough, but not well enough that I don't encounter any problems. Also, my knowledge of grammar and kanji far outstrips my ability to express myself naturally in the language. Is that fluent? Proficient? Sufficient? Excentric? Eclectic?

Me does not know. All me knows is me understand big plot in games and manga. That good, but want to understand more, better, quicker. And want to put moves on cute little Japanese girls using Japanese. That まだまだ.

Plus, I've gone off topic.

Er... what was the topic, again?
 

Nihongaeri

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Re: The Japanese Language

Iwanin said:
Also, my knowledge of grammar and kanji far outstrips my ability to express myself naturally in the language.
I've come to the conclusion that that is the fate of anyone who engages in any kind of academic study of a "second" language...

Related to this...

http://www.atok.com/nihongotest/

I took this test and got a 71. My wife took it and got a 49. My wife is no doubt better at Japanese than I am, but apparently my knowledge of the overall prescriptive technicalities that are thrown around relating to Japanese is markedly better. Go figure.
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

Iwanin said:
I was tempted, upon contemplating this phenomenon, to claim I spoke not only Spanish, English, a bit of French and some Japanese, but also Portuguese, Galician, Catalan, Italian and heck, why not Basque - it may not be lingüistically related to Romance Languages, but the Basque know either French or Spanish or both!

And that's not all! Since Kanji are technically Chinese and may be used to write Korean, I guess I'll add this last language plus at least Mandarin and Cantonese to my repertoire!

Truly, I know so many languages I amaze myself!
:rofl btw most chinese dialects writes using the same chinese words just pronounced differently. so technically, u can also include other chinese dialects like foochow, hokkien, hakka, teochew in your repertoire as well. :smile-big
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

Brede said:
:rofl btw most chinese dialects writes using the same chinese words just pronounced differently. so technically, u can also include other chinese dialects like foochow, hokkien, hakka, teochew in your repertoire as well.   :smile-big
Yeah, I figured on something like that  - that's why I was careful to say "at least Mandarin and Cantonese." ;)

I remain completely ignorant on Indian languages, though, even by this forum's loose standards.

But back to the topic...

Saithan said:
Anyway this is more or less what I can remember, can't guarentee it is right, but according to my teacher some of the oldest hiragana/katakana could be traced back to the shell of a turtle or something....
I think your teacher was referring to the first Kanji, which are said to have started as symbols for chinese divination practices. They would write the characters in turtle shells. The catch phrase "spare a turtle: remain iliterate" was said to be popular in ancient China. (note: the first bit (about divination) is no joke).

Saithan said:
I figured that much out but I'm having trouble figuring out where one word stops and another one begins.
I sometimes have that problem myself. It's related to your knowledge of usage more than to vocabulary per se. In other words, if you know what words to expect, it's a lot easier not to get confused on this.

Hanabi said:
As a side note, to clear what someone mentioned.  A small history lesson.

(Note:  This is what I've heard, some things could be wrong.)
Hiragana was originally created as a way to allow women to write.  Men were required to write in only kanji.  At some point a man actually masqueraded as a woman to write a novel with hiragana in it which became famous.  (One of the first Japanese novels in fact, if I'm right he wrote the Genji Story.)

Things like that happened and eventually Japan adopted the kanji and hiragana/katakana style they have today.

This is what I've heard, not sure if it is 100% historically accurate by the way.  Japanese TV gives out so much info it gets jumbled in my head.
Well, as far as I know the author of the Tale of Genji was in fact a woman, and there was a reason why she was so well educated. Although I read somewhere else that she did not like Chinese influence on the Japanese language (my kind of girl):

http://www.gale.com/free_resources/whm/bio/murasaki_s.htm

'just felt I needed to point that out. I dunno, but the suggestion that she was a man *might* be no more than the misbegotten brainchild of some misogynistic scholar or another.

Murasaki-chan RuleZ. :tem
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

あのうう、ぼくはニオシュウェチです。三年間ぐらい日本語を勉強します。面白いことをかんがいていないから、これはちょっとむずかしい。。。でも、去年の夏休みは日本へいきました。たのしいでした。この夏休み、日本へまた行きたいですが、行けません。。。
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

Can someone confirm the meaning of abaremawaru ? thanks!
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

Abaremawaru : to rampage; to run riot, so said the Japanese <-> English Dictionary and and a friend that happens to be from Japan.
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

hehe thanks KTFS :p
 

njt

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Re: The Japanese Language

Abaremawaru said:
Can someone confirm the meaning of abaremawaru ? thanks!
someone enjoying changing their names often eh? :p
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

njt said:
someone enjoying changing their names often eh? :p
Is it something exlusively reserved for Khal ? :p
 

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Re: The Japanese Language

Abaremawaru said:
Is it something exlusively reserved for Khal ? :p
Hey! That's offtopic! Stick to the language here! ...
*feels like everybody is staring at him*
Errr, guess i'll just leave then :eyeroll
*does so*
 
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