Games The RPG thread

[Jammin]

First things first, RPG Codex is a community of RPG experts as well as RPG amateurs, but all in all the ratio of experts is the highest of all communities. So you have here quite a few old guys (as old as me or older) who have played every great RPG from the 80's and later. Have you heard about Buck Rodgers? Pools of Darkness? Betrayal at Krondor? Dark Sun: Shattered Lands? Ultima? Wizardry? Well, these guys played them all so it's no wonder that games aimed at retards like Skyrim or Dragon Age or Mass Effect (with hand-holding, LGBTFAGS and other things for double digit IQ target) aren't high on that list.

Age of Decadence for example is a brilliant but underappreciated gem of a game that besides RPG Codex community no one has heard about and it deservedly got 11th place. You can be sure though that it wouldn't be considered in any other list like this made by mainstream media (like IGN, Gamespot, RPS or PC Gamer) because the game doesn't play itself and all of the negative reviews on Steam are of the "it's too hard" category. When a casual gamer goes from Dragon Age or Skyrim (where he easily becomes a demi-god) to AoD where he can't win even the first fight you can be certain that he won't recommend this game. But for RPG Codex the challenge and unique ideas in the game are precious, hence they prefer games like AoD or Jagged Alliance 2 or Fallout or Arcanum rather than Mass Effect, Skyrim, Oblivion or Dragon Age.

I agree though that some of the games on the list should be lower or much lower (like all Dark Souls games, Shadowrun: Dragonfall, Baldur's Gate series, Morrowind, etc.) and some higher or much higher (like Betrayal at Krondor, Dark Sun, Age of Decadence, Wasteland 1, etc.) but the point of this list is more about pointing RPG fans in the right direction rather than trying to be alpha and omega. Look at any other top 100 (or whatever number they can come up with) and see how many great RPGs they've omitted and look at this list to see the difference. RPG Codex has gems no other list has and that's its main advantage.

Also, I should point out, in case you've missed it, how the voting looked like. Everyone had 25 points to distribute but could assign no more than 5 points to a single title. So one could vote on 25 games or only 5 games, depending on his choice. That way it was impossible to downvote a game you haven't played or you didn't play (and knowing RPG Codex, Bioware and Bethesda games would end up even lower in such case because their titles would get many 1 ratings). That way you voted only on the games that you thought truly deserved the spot. Hence Witcher 3 didn't get the better place because objectively it's a much worse game than Planescape Torment, Fallout, Arcanum, Bloodlines, Wizardry 8 (although it got better place but that's mainly because many more people played W3 than W8) or Age of Decadence.


lol
Top 100 is a lot, Expeditions: Viking and Atom are easily in the top 100. NN is super boring, I agree and NN 2 got so many points only because of brilliant expansion Mask of the Betrayer. I don't know what you have against ELEX though, IMO it's a much better game than any AAA title I know but if you want a casual list just go to any other gaming site and voila, you will have your wishes fulfilled.

You sure do have a high opinion of this opinion, I definitely do not. Not to enrage you but reading the list I personally think it just reads like hipster thing. I really think a lot of RPGs are getting penalized because they aren't niche enough or are too popular and that makes for a bad list, IMO.

Elex isn't a terrible game. It's also not a great game. It's basically just an attempt to recreate the original Gothic in a Sci-Fi setting that is about 70% successful + a jetpack. That's my problem with most of the things on that list. It seems like it has no objectivity at all.

I've played most of those games your talking about and played most of the games on that list. Some of them aren't even really RPGs like Space Rangers which is RTS. Then there is inexcusable stuff like Trails in the Sky. Why is that one of the only JRPGs on the list? Don't get me wrong it's a good JRPG but it's not a top 10 JRPG. Tactics Ogre Battle, Suikoden II, Final Fantasy Tactics? Where are those?

 

[Goral]

(...)I've played most of those games your talking about and played most of the games on that list (...)

Somehow I find it hard to believe but out of curiosity, which ones you haven't played (out of those I've mentioned)? And what do you mean by "played", because running a game and closing it after 5 minutes isn't what I would consider playing.

(...)
Some of them aren't even really RPGs like Space Rangers which is RTS. Then there is inexcusable stuff like Trails in the Sky. Why is that one of the only JRPGs on the list? Don't get me wrong it's a good JRPG but it's not a top 10 JRPG. Tactics Ogre Battle, Suikoden II, Final Fantasy Tactics? Where are those?

Only PC games were considered but jRPGs are trash and if you ask me none of those deserves the spot on top 100 list (the best one I've played - Chrono Trigger is good at best). As for Space Rangers, if Skyrim is considered as an RPG then so can Space Rangers where you have much richer RPG elements than in Bethesda walking simulator.

 

[z.5]

And Icewind Dale being so low on the list behind a ton of old stuff I'm not even sure I've seen before cements my point IMO.

Pretty sure that a lot of that list was the equivalent of flopping out their inflated virtual penis and waving it around to try and boast of all the old RPGs that they have played.

I've played a load of those games, but, in my opinion [the only one that I feel worth caring about] many really have not aged well.

That said, the list isn't too bad, considering.
As you said, the order may be completely FUBAR (I mean, Daggerfall is obviously the superior Elder Scrolls game), but the list did not contain all that many games which are completely without merit.

It's odd to aim for such a large list, when many of those RPGs are so different they might as well be completely different genres
TES games are nothing like Diablo, which is nothing like Dark Souls, which is nothing like Baldur's Gate...

What do they share? Character stats?
I've played sports games with 'character stats' - games which I certainly would not consider as role-playing games

It's just a huge issue with the title 'RPG' - it's a pretty big net to cast to make a top 100 from.
One which, in my mind, can contain far too many different sub-genres that it makes the creation of any list pretty meaningless.

 

[Jammin]

Somehow I find it hard to believe but out of curiosity, which ones you haven't played (out of those I've mentioned)? And what do you mean by "played", because running a game and closing it after 5 minutes isn't what I would consider playing.

Only PC games were considered but jRPGs are trash and if you ask me none of those deserves the spot on top 100 list (the best one I've played - Chrono Trigger is good at best). As for Space Rangers, if Skyrim is considered as an RPG then so can Space Rangers where you have much richer RPG elements than in Bethesda walking simulator.

Dude. I've been playing videogames almost since I was a kid in the 80s I owned an Atari-2600 and a Comodore 64 and have loved gaming ever since. And I was obsessed with RPGs since I discovered they were a thing. So I'd say I have a pretty solid knowledge base.

I'm not going to go through the whole list for you but looking at the first 30 entries...

Arcanum
Jagged Alliance 2
Underrail
Grimore
Might and Magic 6
Shadowrun: Dragonfall

Wizardry 7 I'm not sure about. I bought a bunch of Wizardry-like games along with Betrayal at Krondor at a second hand store. I know Wizardy 8 was in there along with another Wizardry game don't remember which one though. Betrayal at Krondor was by far my favorite of those.

As for Space Rangers. It's an RTS. It barely has any RPG elements. I know people get mad at Bethesda for.. being Bethesda but Skryim is a hell of an RPG. An RPG that needs to be played with Mods certainly but still. Is it better than Ice Wind Dale? Yeah. Is it better than Betrayal at Krondor? Yeah. It's better than those.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 9, 2019 ---

Though to reveal my bias with Skyrim I "may" have put 600 hours into it. So obviously I don't hate it.

 

[TrienDarkform]

When you've got that many games, and only so many votes or points to allocate, results are going to be all over and a mess... no statistical rigour, and really no statistical relevance at all, especially in the numerical ranking. :P

Just look at it as interesting sample of what other people like, and things to try if one hasn't played some of them.

 

[xi0]

When you've got that many games, and only so many votes or points to allocate, results are going to be all over and a mess... no statistical rigour, and really no statistical relevance at all, especially in the numerical ranking. :P

Yeah it seems like that can be blamed for a lot of the list's wonkiness. But even so, there's some weird omissions there that are very "hispter-ish", like Jammin mentioned.

There's no doubt that Dark Souls is a great game, but is it a great RPG? How exactly is that even defined? Is it safe to say that the Witcher series (more the second and third game) are better games than they are RPGs?

 

[Goral]

no statistical rigour, and really no statistical relevance at all, especially in the numerical ranking

Not exactly, Bayesian probability has been used here:
This system has advantages and disadvantages. Because of lack of negative votes it's more clear (IMO) which game was liked the most. With the poll where we can rate from 1 to 5, many people would rate some games very low, e.g. jrpgs because they don't like Chinese pornographic cartoons (read: anime) and that style (I would downvote them myself, because every jRPG is an endless grindfest, with no interesting quests or NPCs). With the 25 point system they would just ignore these games and focus on the ones they liked best. Users are also non-anonymous and they tend to shit-vote less, knowing that their votes are public.

The main disadvantage though is that people who played many RPGs were in a bind because they had to choose from many great RPGs and give 1 points for example or completely omit some of the great titles so that their favourite would score better. On the other hand most popular games among casual gamers or people who haven't played that many RPGs (I'm talking about Witcher/Dark Souls/Baldur's Gate audience) scored higher thanks to that. Then again looking at how low Skyrim ended up it seems that disadvantage isn't that significant.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that if we would use this method: https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10535
the results wouldn't differ that much.

Also, looking at the top 70 RPGs of all time from 5 years ago: https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453
one can clearly see that the top 10-20 is roughly the same, it's a core that won't change much no matter what.

 

[z.5]

Because of lack of negative votes it's more clear (IMO) which game was liked the most.

... With the 25 point system they would just ignore these games and focus on the ones they liked best.

It certainly is a good indication of which games were played the most (and the experience of playing was generally enjoyable).
However, that isn't necessarily a mark of increased quality.

By this I mean that games such as The Elder Scrolls, or Dark Souls, or Undertale even, are far more likely to have been played than other games on this list.
Therefore, they are more likely to receive points.

Now, obviously, if the game wasn't of a high enough quality then it is likely that the game wouldn't be widely played ('quality' being a hugely subjective attribute - as games like VTM:B are super janky [though this game is, for sure, deserving to be on this list] and completely broken at times). and therefore wouldn't receive points.

The removal of negative points stops people giving opinions on games that they have played but didn't enjoy.
This will boost games above what might be their average percieved quality - and perhaps give less information to those who haven't played the game about how much they might enjoy the game.

Users are also non-anonymous and they tend to shit-vote less, knowing that their votes are public.

I believe that a bigger benefit of this is that it enables you to predict what kind of games that particular user enjoys - and therefore their views on a certain corner of the RPG market [games that they tend to enjoy] might be more useful than their views on a different corner [where they tend not to enjoy those games as much].

Then again looking at how low Skyrim ended up it seems that disadvantage isn't that significant.

I'd argue that the fact that games like Dark Souls and Undertale did so well suggests that the advantage of popularity is quite evident.

The fact that Skyrim did less well could easily be chalked down to the fact that people who played Skyrim are also likely to have played other TES games.
This would point to them finding the older games as more enjoyable TES-esque games than Skyrim (as Oblivion and Morrowind were not unpopular games, by any means).

Also, to consider Baldur's gate as unknown/unpopular is really not fair. It is incredibly well known and widely played (and that was shown in how well it sold).


Perhaps a more useful method of analysis would be one where people can assign a score - with an option of having 'not played' - for each and every game on that list.
Then not only showing the top scoring games - but also the percentages of users who had played each title and how that score ranked with similar style RPGs.

As it is, I'm not all that convinced about the usefulness of this list, as a tool for ranking games [loosely] fitting into the RPG genre.

 

[Jammin]

People are really going nuts about Outer Worlds right now.

I'm looking forward to playing it, eventually when it comes out on steam, and I'm sure it's great. But it's funny how many are ready to crown Obsidian the king of RPGs in their reviews. I wonder how much of that is Fallout 76 saltiness talking or if it's really THAT good?

 

[xi0]

People are really going nuts about Outer Worlds right now.

I'm looking forward to playing it, eventually when it comes out on steam, and I'm sure it's great. But it's funny how many are ready to crown Obsidian the king of RPGs in their reviews. I wonder how much of that is Fallout 76 saltiness talking or if it's really THAT good?

Microsoft must be paying Bethesda for this good PR at this point. The Outer Worlds was announced something like the day after Fallout76 was to a lukewarm response. Now, Bethesda announced their bullshit subscription service for FO76 the day before The Outer Worlds is released to glowing reviews. It's almost like it's planned or something.

I was a bit curious about maybe trying the XBox Game Pass for $1 in order to play it, but I prefer to own my singleplayer games so I'm holding off. The main complaint about the game I've seen with any regularity is the length not being too much.

 

[Jammin]

I would probably do that if I didn't have so many RPGs to play already. There are so many studios now that are coming along pretty well with making own games in the genre that it almost feels like what used to be mid tier is now "the RPG space". And these games like Disco Elysium keep coming out of nowhere.

 

[BlackTiger]

Hoshigami
Tactic Ogre
Suikoden Tactic
Final Fantasy Tactic

I prefer tactical rpg like these where you move your allies to destined position to strategize attacks to your enemies rather than simple turn based rpg.

 

[Jammin]

Glad that I get to talk about a new great RPG and Yakuza at the same time.

I've been playing Yakuza: Like a Dragon and it's great. It's Yakuza so it's what you expect there. Which is like 10-15 hours of story before the game opens up. It's even framed really well since the main guy grew up loving Dragon Quest growing up. So what your seeing is his delusion a lot of times. Which works really well since the series is so crazy even normally.

What I didn't expect are the elements like the job system. Like it's not just playing at being an RPG. It actually is one. Every character so far fits into the RPG classics of like warrior, wizard, knight, etc. Every character has HP and MP. The turn based system works really will. With a few timed button presses in there to keep it active. The menus are very Persona 5 inspired.

It's just a really good RPG.

 

[SharkBait]

DisgaeaRPG on mobile isnt all that bad. I enjoy it,

 

[SharkBait]

Ive been running through Devil Survivor Overclocked getting all the endings (3 down, 3 to go). This is honestly my first actual SMT (unless Im supposed to consider Persona 3 and 4 as true SMT games)...curious what I should expect from the more recent SMT games since they seem like mainline games?

 

[SharkBait]

January 2023, I set my goal of this year to play as many of the "Trails" games as I could this year. Halfway through the year

I finally finished Trails in the Sky 3rd with that my total time on Trails in the Sky series in 2023 is

1st Chapter: 98 hours, Nightmare
2nd Chapter: 111 hours, Hard mode, 100% Achievements
3rd Chapter: 77 hours, Hard mode Total 286 hours

Currently playing Trails from Zero...Hard mode, probably will go for the 100% achievements, just because it seems easy to get, and the second playthrough is required

 

[Jammin]

@z.5 So close now.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Jul 27, 2023 ---

Trying to figure out which race and class I want to try, likely with the Dark Urge background, not that I can really know until the full game is out there. Leaning wizard since I like the "collect em all" spell mentality but without the full subclass list for them and what those schools of magic specifically do it's impossible to know what's on offer there. But sorcerers get all the metamagic and who doesn't enjoy metamagic?

The race is going to be tricky to pick too since I don't really want the more vanilla races. As Larian supposedly has a lot of race specific stuff for roleplaying purposes. Drow or githyanki seems cool. And anybody who has read an R.A. Salvatore book loves drow naturally. But a Half-Orc Wizard could be pretty fun. And gnomes are always a good time. Then there are dragonborne which just look awesome. So lots of fun options on the table. Just got to decide which to try first.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 27, 2023 ---

What about you? You going human/fighter?

 

[z.5]

What about you? You going human/fighter?

... Dunno what you take me for

Was also considering a magic user of some variety - or, perhaps, a dwarf ranger?

Dunno... Probably do my usual and spur of the moment pick something random


Also, anyone who knows Drizzt might be seriously worried about the kind of shit you'd get [be born] into as a drow

 

[Jammin]

... Dunno what you take me for

Was also considering a magic user of some variety - or, perhaps, a dwarf ranger?

Dunno... Probably do my usual and spur of the moment pick something random

I take you for the kind of guy that knows how to respond to the suggestion that he would roll with vanilla-kun.

Also, anyone who knows Drizzt might be seriously worried about the kind of shit you'd get [be born] into as a drow

That's where the fun is. A good Lolth-sworn drow is like orc bard. Or half-orc wizard, which I'm leaning toward.

I bet the Githyanki don't exactly have a ton of fans either but they weren't apart of forgotten realms back in my day, at least not that I ever knew about. They, and Dragonborne, are new to me. So I'm not sure what role play experience to expect there.

 

[z.5]

I'm not really a fan of 'dragon-human' style characters - I don't think they look very cool and kinda like my dragons large and unplayable

Githyanki are cool, would consider rolling one of those

Really enjoy underdogs and reckon they'll likely receive substantial love from the devs (going by what little I've seen [having actively avoided all info] from the game's story thus far)