Is Akainu gonna be the ultimate villian? How about Blackbeard? Will BB grow to be stronger with a third mythical zoan or something like that to gain intangibility?
This does not make sense at all. Let's analyze what the says "The two of us have nearly killed each other so many times".
1) Garp would know if he nearly killed somebody. So, even if Roger tried to trick him, he wouldn't fall for it.
2) Moreover, he wouldn't try to make Garp think of them as friends; because if Roger thinks Garp does not think of them as friends, he wouldn't trust Ace to him.
3) Roger would know if somebody nearly killed him.
4) So many times means it is more than once, probably a lot more. So, it can't be due to some situational disadvantage, it can't be due to luck. They fought more or less equally.
5) Garp and Sengoku being the last line of defence in Ace's execution is an implication of their power levels.
We don't know what happened between Garp and Roger each time they fought. For all we know, their "fights" were like the ones we saw in the war with everyone constantly launching surprise attacks on each other. Roger got distracted and Garp gave him a kidney blow from behind. The vice-versa happened to Garp as well. Nevertheless, Garp never once won a fight with Roger. It's canon that WB is Roger's only equal.
Roger was trying to get on Garp's good side when he made the comment. He knew Garp was the best man fit for the job as he explained how he hoped Garp would protect his girlfriend and unborn child.
Garp and Sengoku were not the last lines of defense. The Admirals did far more to protect Marineford and the scaffhold that held Ace than anything Garp or Sengoku did during the war. Their job, specifically Sengoku, was to stand back and issue orders as they observed the situation.
Until the reason behind Senkous promotion is said, I don't see it as irrelevant.
At that time, Garp was still not a developed character. Only about 4-5 years later, Oda started to develop Garp. Im not saying the Gorusai statement is unacceptable, but it is outdated. We have now new reasons to believe that the Admirals are not necessarily the strongest within the MHQ.
Sengoku was promoted because his superior's job became availible and Sengoku accepted the position. That still doesn't change the fact that Sengoku is no longer in his prime and his current feats don't stack up to what the current Admirals have shown.
At that time when the Admirals were introduced, only Aokiji was developed. Only about 4-5 years later, Oda started to develop Kizaru and Akainu. The Gorusai statement is not out of date considering how Kizaru, for example, has been stated to be the "strongest" too. More importantly, the 3 Admirals were MHQ's stars during the war. Feats are more important than anything when assessing a person's power since an author must "Show, not tell". Garp has not shown anything that places him on par with the 3 Admirals. Garp has only been stated to be a legendary fighter from 20+ years ago and hasn't been in his prime for years now.
If it was just for saving, then clearly not. Otherwise anyone had the right to claim some random dude to be stronger than the Admirals. But it is not just saving.
He cornered several times the PK and was said to have near dead matches with him.
He is a D, refused to become a Admiral and carries the title Hero of the Marine. Going by the reaction of the WB pirates, that title must be linked to his battle and its achievements.
I think it is more than clear that Garp is a extreme powerhouse on his own. He is a fighting power of the MHQ, not a tactician or w/e. So yes, Oda saving him makes me think that he is extremely powerful, same goes for Mihawk, who was also saved for future plot.
It's lipservice. Garp is respected by WB too, but WB's comments about Garp only mean that Garp was famous and powerful 20+ years ago. In the current timeline, Garp admitted he isn't nowhere as strong as he used to be. WB also states that Garp's title as "Hero of the Marines" is outdated.
Oh, and on the subject of titles, the title of "Admiral" is bestowed upon Marines who are recognized for their fighting prowess. There's an interesting statement in Aokiji's databook profile that one of the reasons he is the "strongest" is "because he's a Logia".
That was Buggy's statement. Im not denying it's credibility, but we have new reasons to believe that WB was not the only one.
Garp was said to have cornered Roger. He was also said to have chased Roger on every occasion. Furthermore Roger said he fought him several times to near dead. So from my point of view, you wouldn't fight to draw and run from someone if he is not extremely strong. Anyway, everything vast theories, since it was all Offpanel.
Same case for the Shiki's matter, it was also offpanel. Until we know their ability's (I didn't watch the movie yet) we (I) can't rly come to a conclusion. I mean the damage on the MHQ, could have been easily made by a destructive devil fruit (like Enel's for instance). So it doesn't have to mean anything.
Also I was earlier trying to point out that a tag team doesn't automatically mean Shiki > Sengoku or Garp. To me it just means that both of them together could beat Shiki with less effort, without going into all out mode. Thus the success-rate of the victory was more high. Same case for the two forces against one and three Admirals blocking one attack, I think u misunderstood my intention of those two examples.
Lastly I agree, Roger was trying to play Garp, but just based on that I don't think we can conclude that statement as a lie. If we consider that he cornered him several times and the other facts pointing towards him being strong, I believe Rogers statement was most likely true.
It's common knowledge in the OPverse that only WB could fight Roger to a standstill. After all, fighting Roger to a standstill is the chief reason as to why WB was bestowed with the title "World's Strongest Man".
True, what went on between Roger and Garp is offpanel. We still know the results though. Roger got away from Garp every single time and defeated him in every fight he had with Garp. I don't see how these two facts speak in favor of Garp being Roger's "equal" as you suggest.
As for the Shiki matter, there is no credible reason for either Garp or Sengoku to not go all-out at the start of the fight. Shiki invaded Marineford and slaughtered an unknown amount of Marines. Furthermore, it was a good chance for MHQ to put an end to a legendary troublemaker. Garp and Sengoku tag-teamed Shiki, yet their combined might (with an army behind them btw), they were unable to curbstomp Shiki as evidenced how half of Marineford was wrecked in their fight (buildings were destroyed, ship debris exists all over the place, etc.). If either Sengoku or Garp were equal, if not better, than Shiki, then one fighter could hold Shiki off while the other delivered a fatal blow. On a side note, taking on 2 of MHQ's elites at the same time counts as hype for Shiki.
The moment WB stepped down from his ship, nothing was fair anymore. One of his alliance-mate was played and WB ended up with a hole in his chest. I don't need to mention that before the vs Akainu fight, WB was multiple wounded by the marines. While Akainu was fresh, without any signs of damage. That battle was no way in hell fair. To me a fair fight means if both fighter fights on neutral battlefield, without any disadvantage for each and naturally both of them have to be fresh, without damages, exhaustion etc.
Yes Akainu was able to take half of his face, but WB was in a hurry. While for Akainu it was just vs WB, for WB it was more like vs MHQ. He needed to buy time for his crew's escape, while he was holding the entire MHQ. So he couldn't focus only on Akainu.
Now imagine, if it wasn't MHQ but just Akainu, don't you think WB would have jumped on and focused more attacks on him, even after he felled down? So not just 2 hits, but more, way more. I think it is pretty clear that Akainu couldn't fight anymore after the 2nd hit. That's why I can't imagine him surviving further hits, while WB who was shot and stabbed several times, who also lost his face and had a hole in his chest, was still not down.
The way I see it, WB wanted to take down Akainu as fast as possible (reasons: Ace and Crews safty), so he let him take his face, but landed two fast hits. Under normal condition the WB vs Akainu fight would have lasted way longer, WB wouldn't have lost his face in a few seconds and Akainu wouldn't have been defeated so early.
WB vs aynone displayed so far = WB -> the strongest man
WB vs 2 Admirals = Admirals
Anyway, it's not a secret that Im a WB-fanboy, but Im not pulling my arguments out of my ass. He portrayed his superiority, not to mention Oda did not make him lose in a fair 1vs1 fight. So I believe with that infobox labelling him as the strongest, was not a title, but rather a fact.
In a war, there is no such thing as a foul move. A party's objective is to win the fight if possible. Although WB received a hole in his chest, Marco and others pointed out that WB would have avoided it if not for his age. People such as Crocodile were stunned as to how weak WB had become. Furthermore, WB silently comments to himself how time has sapped his strength. In other words, it's indicated early on at the start of the war that current WB is only a shadow of his former self.
Before receiving that wound though, WB had a brief skirmish with Aokiji. The skirmish is what you'd see at the start of a "fair" fight. In this case, neither party succeeded in damaging each other. As the war dragged on, WB launched a surprise attack on Kizaru only to end up failing to do damage to the Admiral and having a few holes blown in his chest.
As for Akainu, yes, Akainu had yet to suffer any major injuries. Nevertheless, WB still held a significant amount of power since the island was in grave danger of being destroyed by WB's attacks. WB then got another hole engraved in his chest and failed to damage Akainu. Even without the wound, we know WB would still have trouble damaging Akainu as evidenced by how Marco and Vista had trouble with him, and this was after WB's surprise attack.
WB used enough force he felt would defeat Akainu. He could accomplish several goals all at once by defeating Akainu: (1) He could avenge Ace's death, (2) he could put distance between MHQ and his men, (3) he could save some of his men from being roasted by Akainu, and (4) demoralize the enemy by depriving them of their most availible asset. Not attempting to finish Akainu when WB had the chance would be a huge tactical blunder for WB and his men. When Akainu showed up later, people were surprised that Akainu was still alive after receiving two clean, critical attacks from WB. Akainu then goes on to plow through people such as Jinbei (= Ace) and Ivankov (who held his own against Kuma).
WB failed hard to pwn or even harm Admirals when he tried attacking them, and two instances involve him launching a surprise attack on an Admiral! Yet he still couldn't defeat, let alone inflict any fatal damage, his target, and actually received damage in return, one of which was fatal (Akainu burning off half of WB's face). Still, the fact that WB could hold his own against the Admirals is impressive, especially considering his age at the time.
Prime WB vs Admiral = WB rapestomps
Current WB vs Admiral = Admiral >= WB
Current WB vs 2+ Admirals = Admirals rapestomp
I'm not a WB fanboy, but I am impressed with how WB was handled. And I'm glad to see I'm not seeing someone who thinks that current WB can solo 2+ Admirals at the same time.
I agree this will turn into another WB vs BB debate. So, I'll make this my last post on the subject. I'm not sure though if I'll still be around though if and when the manga continues giving developments regarding this particular subject.
We don't know what happened between Garp and Roger each time they fought. For all we know, their "fights" were like the ones we saw in the war with everyone constantly launching surprise attacks on each other. Roger got distracted and Garp gave him a kidney blow from behind. The vice-versa happened to Garp as well. Nevertheless, Garp never once won a fight with Roger. It's canon that WB is Roger's only equal.
Roger was trying to get on Garp's good side when he made the comment. He knew Garp was the best man fit for the job as he explained how he hoped Garp would protect his girlfriend and unborn child.
Garp and Sengoku were not the last lines of defense. The Admirals did far more to protect Marineford and the scaffhold that held Ace than anything Garp or Sengoku did during the war. Their job, specifically Sengoku, was to stand back and issue orders as they observed the situation.
Sengoku was promoted because his superior's job became availible and Sengoku accepted the position. That still doesn't change the fact that Sengoku is no longer in his prime and his current feats don't stack up to what the current Admirals have shown.
At that time when the Admirals were introduced, only Aokiji was developed. Only about 4-5 years later, Oda started to develop Kizaru and Akainu. The Gorusai statement is not out of date considering how Kizaru, for example, has been stated to be the "strongest" too. More importantly, the 3 Admirals were MHQ's stars during the war. Feats are more important than anything when assessing a person's power since an author must "Show, not tell". Garp has not shown anything that places him on par with the 3 Admirals. Garp has only been stated to be a legendary fighter from 20+ years ago and hasn't been in his prime for years now.
It's lipservice. Garp is respected by WB too, but WB's comments about Garp only mean that Garp was famous and powerful 20+ years ago. In the current timeline, Garp admitted he isn't nowhere as strong as he used to be. WB also states that Garp's title as "Hero of the Marines" is outdated.
Oh, and on the subject of titles, the title of "Admiral" is bestowed upon Marines who are recognized for their fighting prowess. There's an interesting statement in Aokiji's databook profile that one of the reasons he is the "strongest" is "because he's a Logia".
It's common knowledge in the OPverse that only WB could fight Roger to a standstill. After all, fighting Roger to a standstill is the chief reason as to why WB was bestowed with the title "World's Strongest Man".
True, what went on between Roger and Garp is offpanel. We still know the results though. Roger got away from Garp every single time and defeated him in every fight he had with Garp. I don't see how these two facts speak in favor of Garp being Roger's "equal" as you suggest.
As for the Shiki matter, there is no credible reason for either Garp or Sengoku to not go all-out at the start of the fight. Shiki invaded Marineford and slaughtered an unknown amount of Marines. Furthermore, it was a good chance for MHQ to put an end to a legendary troublemaker. Garp and Sengoku tag-teamed Shiki, yet their combined might (with an army behind them btw), they were unable to curbstomp Shiki as evidenced how half of Marineford was wrecked in their fight (buildings were destroyed, ship debris exists all over the place, etc.). If either Sengoku or Garp were equal, if not better, than Shiki, then one fighter could hold Shiki off while the other delivered a fatal blow. On a side note, taking on 2 of MHQ's elites at the same time counts as hype for Shiki.
In a war, there is no such thing as a foul move. A party's objective is to win the fight if possible. Although WB received a hole in his chest, Marco and others pointed out that WB would have avoided it if not for his age. People such as Crocodile were stunned as to how weak WB had become. Furthermore, WB silently comments to himself how time has sapped his strength. In other words, it's indicated early on at the start of the war that current WB is only a shadow of his former self.
Before receiving that wound though, WB had a brief skirmish with Aokiji. The skirmish is what you'd see at the start of a "fair" fight. In this case, neither party succeeded in damaging each other. As the war dragged on, WB launched a surprise attack on Kizaru only to end up failing to do damage to the Admiral and having a few holes blown in his chest.
As for Akainu, yes, Akainu had yet to suffer any major injuries. Nevertheless, WB still held a significant amount of power since the island was in grave danger of being destroyed by WB's attacks. WB then got another hole engraved in his chest and failed to damage Akainu. Even without the wound, we know WB would still have trouble damaging Akainu as evidenced by how Marco and Vista had trouble with him, and this was after WB's surprise attack.
WB used enough force he felt would defeat Akainu. He could accomplish several goals all at once by defeating Akainu: (1) He could avenge Ace's death, (2) he could put distance between MHQ and his men, (3) he could save some of his men from being roasted by Akainu, and (4) demoralize the enemy by depriving them of their most availible asset. Not attempting to finish Akainu when WB had the chance would be a huge tactical blunder for WB and his men. When Akainu showed up later, people were surprised that Akainu was still alive after receiving two clean, critical attacks from WB. Akainu then goes on to plow through people such as Jinbei (= Ace) and Ivankov (who held his own against Kuma).
WB failed hard to pwn or even harm Admirals when he tried attacking them, and two instances involve him launching a surprise attack on an Admiral! Yet he still couldn't defeat, let alone inflict any fatal damage, his target, and actually received damage in return, one of which was fatal (Akainu burning off half of WB's face). Still, the fact that WB could hold his own against the Admirals is impressive, especially considering his age at the time.
Prime WB vs Admiral = WB rapestomps
Current WB vs Admiral = Admiral >= WB
Current WB vs 2+ Admirals = Admirals rapestomp
I'm not a WB fanboy, but I am impressed with how WB was handled. And I'm glad to see I'm not seeing someone who thinks that current WB can solo 2+ Admirals at the same time.
I agree this will turn into another WB vs BB debate. So, I'll make this my last post on the subject. I'm not sure though if I'll still be around though if and when the manga continues giving developments regarding this particular subject.
I don't think than Garp and Roger have really fought, I think than their duel was as that in Water 7 with SH, when they fly away thanks to the super cannon.
We don't know what happened between Garp and Roger each time they fought. For all we know, their "fights" were like the ones we saw in the war with everyone constantly launching surprise attacks on each other. Roger got distracted and Garp gave him a kidney blow from behind. The vice-versa happened to Garp as well. Nevertheless, Garp never once won a fight with Roger. It's canon that WB is Roger's only equal.
Roger was trying to get on Garp's good side when he made the comment. He knew Garp was the best man fit for the job as he explained how he hoped Garp would protect his girlfriend and unborn child.
When you demand such a big favor, getting on someone's good side is of no use. I think his every word was sincere in that dialogue. Roger does not seem to be the type to manipulate people he respects.
Garp and Sengoku were not the last lines of defense. The Admirals did far more to protect Marineford and the scaffhold that held Ace than anything Garp or Sengoku did during the war. Their job, specifically Sengoku, was to stand back and issue orders as they observed the situation.
I don't think than Garp and Roger have really fought, I think than their duel was as that in Water 7 with SH, when they fly away thanks to the super cannon.
A lot of talk about Roger vs Garp which sounds a bit misleading, so let me clarify that unless I'm very much mistaken:
The only references made to Garp vs Roger indicate that Garp "cornered" Roger many times. The record of their battles has never been mentioned and it's only a general assumption that they had many large scale battles and were approximately equals. For all we know, they only fought once and Garp "cornered" Roger many times the same way Smoker has "cornered" Luffy (which is forcing a retreat).
If you can find me any reference where Garp "nearly killed" Roger, or where Garp "never once won a fight with Roger", ignore all this.
I.e. Cornering =/= nearly killing + Escaping this cornering =/= winning every time
in the last page of chapter 581, don flamingo is ordered to eliminate moria. the order came from someone/a group with higher rank than sengoku, obviously stronger than don flamingo, or the three admiral as well. what kind of power does this marine posses? or who is stronger/have higher rank than sengoku?i believe this marine is the man behind the curtain for the void century accident, also the one who is responsible for ohara incident. are they those 5 people group [that holds sword] i'm talking about? i dont know.what do u guys think? if anyone can post pic, that would be nice
in other related noted, i think the rank for strong marine is something like this:
1. sengoku
2. akainu
3. kizaru
4. ao kiji
5. smoker
6. garp
7. coby
8. tashigi
9. hemelpo
and my final question about the marine. they seemed so strong, will they be luffy's final opponent? [i mean the strongest marine vs luffy, or luffy's pirates vs world government/marineford]
I don't think than Garp and Roger have really fought, I think than their duel was as that in Water 7 with SH, when they fly away thanks to the super cannon.
A lot of talk about Roger vs Garp which sounds a bit misleading, so let me clarify that unless I'm very much mistaken:
The only references made to Garp vs Roger indicate that Garp "cornered" Roger many times. The record of their battles has never been mentioned and it's only a general assumption that they had many large scale battles and were approximately equals. For all we know, they only fought once and Garp "cornered" Roger many times the same way Smoker has "cornered" Luffy (which is forcing a retreat).
If you can find me any reference where Garp "nearly killed" Roger, or where Garp "never once won a fight with Roger", ignore all this.
I.e. Cornering =/= nearly killing + Escaping this cornering =/= winning every time
Here is your reference: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/551/05/
To be precise, bottom right panel. The exact words are: "The two of us have nearly killed each other so many times". I think it is clear enough.
Personally, I do not wish to be caught up with the argument going on, however, Bittman, I saw a mistake in one of your posts... Check this one for clarification. Doflamingo did receive damage in this war.
Sorry for this slight interruption, however, please do carry on... Furthermore, I may join the debate on a later date ~ after I catch up reading on the topic at bay.
Personally, I do not wish to be caught up with the argument going on, however, Bittman, I saw a mistake in one of your posts... Check this one for clarification. Doflamingo did receive damage in this war.
Sorry for this slight interruption, however, please do carry on... Furthermore, I may join the debate on a later date ~ after I catch up reading on the topic at bay.
and Mihawk also didn't get hurt right? and Hancock?
but when did Doflamingo get hurt? are you talking about that bruise looking thing he had at the end of the war? because it does look like it, but I don't know, I get the vibe or whatever that Doflamingo's really really REALLY freaking strong and would not have gotten hurt in the war, I think it's arguable whether or not that is a bruise...but that's just me...
and Mihawk also didn't get hurt right? and Hancock?
but when did Doflamingo get hurt? are you talking about that bruise looking thing he had at the end of the war? because it does look like it, but I don't know, I get the vibe or whatever that Doflamingo's really really REALLY freaking strong and would not have gotten hurt in the war, I think it's arguable whether or not that is a bruise...but that's just me...
Hancock, Mihawk and Kizaru are those I noticed without damagelines. But that doesn't mean anything. Akainu for example received the most damage among the Admirals, but he was also the one who archived victory for the WG.
I personally dont believe akainus skull and insides took a direct quake to at ALL. if he was he would be DEAD.
IMO i think akainus logia abilty and him being made up of magma saved him from the full force of whitebeards quake, i dont think akainu is stupid enough not to turn on his haki. SO I dont it is plausible to say akainu took the earthquake 100% and his logia powers had a lot to do with buffering it. He was still a "magma man" when hit buy whitebeards quake.
Whitebeard power is exponentially less powerfull against individuals. While he can take a damage of X in 50 men at once, if he attack a single individual, the damage would still be X. In other words, the absurdity of Whitebeard power is not the power itself, but the range of destruction... (which is very earthquake alike =P)
Garp's punch did squat to Marco as did Kizaru's and Akainu's attacks. Being on par with an Admiral means being as strong as an Admiral. Typically it means being able to hold your own against an Admiral, but Marco is a special case. He can hold his own against anybody except for people who can bypass his regen (BB, Kuma, or a guy with seastone). His damage output though is pathetic compared to Admirals, while they have almost the same defensive capabilities as him.
Garp's punch did squat to Marco as did Kizaru's and Akainu's attacks. Being on par with an Admiral means being as strong as an Admiral. Typically it means being able to hold your own against an Admiral, but Marco is a special case. He can hold his own against anybody except for people who can bypass his regen (BB, Kuma, or a guy with seastone). His damage output though is pathetic compared to Admirals, while they have almost the same defensive capabilities as him.
Uh, Garp was holding back when he hit Marco, he wanted Ace to be freed.
You do remember the feats of physical strength he demonstrated after the Enes Lobby arch yes? where he hurled cannon balls faster than any cannon could do, and where he swung a mace the size of a warship around with little effort, he clearly did not hit Marco with full strength. Those are things I HIGHLY doubt any of the admirals are capable of, they rely far to much on their DF powers.
