Seinen Tough by Saruwatari Tetsuya

Son'O

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Hi what's the name of the fourth type of leg ? So far we have seen dragon,tiger and hawk (the leg of Son'O) type.
The person who gives us information relating to what is said, did not translate this passage. When the volume 21 leaves in French, I will be able to answer you. Maybe person who translate for Stand Alone Edited Manga could translate this : chapter 266 of volume 21, pages 86 to 95 , you'll find here : http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/34124/86


Btw Son'O you wanna put your Tough knowledge to use and translate for us? Also if ya might have links to Volume 21 and 22, please don't mind to share 'em with us.
Sorry but I don't understand Japanese, so I can't translate. I don't have links for volumes 21 and 22
 
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Rock-Bird

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Ah don't worry about that Son'O, if ya can speak French, which i do assume, you can be very helpful. You may, or may not know that we use the French version for Translation. (Since no Japanese Translators were interested in Tough.)

And about that leg-thing, since its something ahead we shall handle it like that... in other words we will know when the time comes for it ;D
 

Son'O

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"Phantom Joe" , who fights against Kiryu, is actually a martial artist of Yûgenshinkageryu. A forum member Ritual indicates that the ideogram "Shin" is different.

For Nadashinkageryû 滩 神 影 流 shin = divine

For Yûgenshinkageryû 幽 玄真 影 流 shin = true / authentic

This could mean that "Phantom Joe" could be a descendant of Kiichiro Miyazawa who went into exile in China after using the technique of Juen Torajiro against his brother at the battle of succession. To argue this, I rely on volume 40 of Tough (season 1); voli what is said by the Grand Master Chin thereon (the old Chinese who smokes a pipe) in Volume 40 of Tough (season 1 ):

" Don't you think that your cousins are few despite the long history of clan Nadashinkage? The" Juen "has been developed there are now 60 years by the most powerful clan member Nadashinkage, Kiichiro Miyazawa. He used at the time, in the succession struggle that opposed to his little brother Torajiro ... Finally, Kiichiro emerged victorious, but took no Kiichiro succession of Nadashinkage probably consumed by guilt for having used the "Juen" on his own brother, he forsook Japan to visit China "
 

andy3004

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"Phantom Joe" , who fights against Kiryu, is actually a martial artist of Yûgenshinkageryu. A forum member Ritual indicates that the ideogram "Shin" is different.

For Nadashinkageryû 滩 神 影 流 shin = divine

For Yûgenshinkageryû 幽 玄真 影 流 shin = true / authentic

This could mean that "Phantom Joe" could be a descendant of Kiichiro Miyazawa who went into exile in China after using the technique of Juen Torajiro against his brother at the battle of succession. "[/B]
Quite an interesting theory... not sure though if it completely fits. (Btw.: I cannot remember completely the contents of the first series of Tough, but wasn't there some explanation about what happened to Kiichiro Miyazawa, at the time in the Manga, where Kiryuu obtained one half of the 'Juen' scroll in China?)

Anyway... in the previous chapter 313, on page 5, Kiichi commented on the Phantom Joes style as follows:

「幽玄真影流て.....とっくの昔にその血統も流派も廃絶しているはずや」

"Yuugenshinkageryuu? But that bloodline and fighting-style got extinct such a long time ago..."


Moreover the connection between Nadashinkageryuu and Yuugenshinkageryuu (and possibly others that might have existed) to me seems to lie on the 影流 (i.e.: "shadow-style") part. Both seem to be special secret fighting styles originally aimed mainly at assassination (Kiryuu often commented at Nadashinkageryuus original purpose being exactly that) and it would well fit in with the image of the Japanese Ninja.

Nadashin Kageryuu translates into something like: "Ocean-God Shadow-Style" whereas Yuugenshin Kageryuu probably is supposed to mean something like "Occullt-Buddhist Shadow-Style" (the character 真 is also used to denote a Japanese Buddhist sect which originated in the 13th century, and taking into consideration Phantom Joes style of speech which is full of buddhist figures of speaking - not to mention that the background where he faces Kiryuu also show a strong buddhist graphical impact - mhh, I personally would opt for that particular reading.)

Anyway, 313 and 314 both were interesting chapters, even though I feel a certain *ouch* in my stomach, seeing my most favorite character, Kiryuu, going down that easily.

Tokoro de: Phantom Joes special technique 朦朧拳 (i.e. "Obscure Fist" or "Ambiguous Fist") seems to be mainly 'counter-based', which of course makes it the ideal Anti-Kiryuu-Weapon. I would assume that it would be much less useful against Kiichi and perhaps even more less useful against Seiko(?)
 
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Son'O

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What is this grave that we saw at the end of Chapter 315?


Put in spoiler tags ~ Drmke
 
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Katz

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^makes me wish I knew japanese....maybe it's kiryuu's grave, since we're not that far in terms of english chapters IDK what happens to Seiko Miyazawa and the whole "dying in 5 years" thing
 

Son'O

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^makes me wish I knew japanese....maybe it's kiryuu's grave, since we're not that far in terms of english chapters IDK what happens to Seiko Miyazawa and the whole "dying in 5 years" thing
Me too, I would like to know about japanese in those moments. Regarding the grave, I think we will know if it is that Kiichiro Miyazawa's grave or a master Yûgenshikageryu's grave beaten by a member of Nadashinkage's clan.

Regarding the "Dead in 5 years" , Son'O healed Seiko by hitting him with a Kaïshuken during their confrontation in a church. You will find this passage in volume 14 and find the Kiryu's opinion in volume 16.
 
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andy3004

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^makes me wish I knew japanese....maybe it's kiryuu's grave, since we're not that far in terms of english chapters IDK what happens to Seiko Miyazawa and the whole "dying in 5 years" thing
At the end of this chapter, Phantom Joe reveals his real name: "Kusakabe Jouichirou", which surprises Seiko, because that person is supposed to be dead. The grave being depicted on the final page shows the name "Kusakabe Jouichirou".
 

Katz

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^good to know that Seiko lives

^^hmm so its kinda like a plot device or w/e, that works out I guess
 

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Hey andy, if ya have a little spare time and interest you could translate for us some Tough. I did send you a PM regarding that with more information...

You know there are not a lot of guys out there who can translate Jap-to-Eng and in addition do like Tough. Actually there is just you... as of right now :-)
 

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A translation of Chapter 316 would be appreciated because it would tell us whether the theory developed by Kiryu in Volume 16 is proved: Son'O uses Jôichirô rather than dirty their hands.
Here is what Kiryu Seiko in this volume 16 after the fight against Minoru "wind": "... But do not be fooled, however. Son'O not good Samaritan that you imagine ... The phoenix is the symbol of authority! Like all powerful, he uses the debts contracted to act as it pleases others ... It is a calculator first ... always trying to hide to plot something! "He who has the authority never fights himself, nor shed his own blood ... we are just puppets for Son'O! It all started when Son'O has concealed its existence .. . So we have come to hate each other. If he had stayed alive, we would never beat. I would never have the Kaïshuken ... You think maybe Son'O you've saved, but only use you! "

This theory seems to be confirmed at the end of Volume 17 by the grandfather of Kiichi.Here is the translation of Chapter 181 made by a member of Ritual:

181th Game
Page 1
Grandpa: "What are you doing with this look of animated heroes missed ... Son'ô ..."," You'd really want to hide your true identity? Son'ô ... .. .
From page 3 to 8, re-submission of remaining with a bit of hay about the fact that the father and son will friter


Page 9
Grandpa: "Why have you disappeared Son'ô?" ...... "Answer when your father asks a question Son'ô"
Son'ô: "... I wanted to free myself ..."
Page 10
Son'ô: "I wanted to see the world like a bird flying in the sky"
Page 11
Grandpa: "Oh ... so you do not want a burden like the fact of inheriting Nadashinkageryû"
Son'ô: "But I intend to preserve the heritage of technology and the spirit of Nadashinkageryû"
Grandpa: "Mind?", "In the character of the mind, there is the devil!" (Ad scholarly explanation: in Japanese, the mind can be said and written Tamashii 魂 and the devil is said and written oni 鬼 the Chinese ... they thought that in every soul there from birth a demon ? ... I would say that this is not fake)
Page 12
Grandpa: "??????", "It seems that finally the 'devil' family Miyazawa was not Kiryu Son'ô but ..."
Page 13
Son'ô: "I'm a devil? ..."," I live, there was the risk of a three-way battle with Seiko and Kiryu to the legacy of Nadashinkageryû "
Grandpa: "Do not tell anything!", "Look well Kiichi! He tries to reunite the family as the 15th successor!"
Page 14
Grandpa: "Whatever difficulty or pain of a trial, Kiichi not leaking like you!"
Page 15
Comm: "Will they do? The confrontation between father and son Will it really take place?", "The son will beat the father and the father is going to kick the son", "With this body you gave me and the techniques you taught me I'll fight! "
Page 16
Comm: "The final round of the Hyper Battle will take place in Las Vegas," "Heaven or Hell? Only fists know the answer!", "Let me finish with words of Seiko Miyazawa .. .
Page 17
Comm: "I will not regret if I die, I will not stop if my opponent dies"
Son'ô: "Indeed, there may be a demon in me ...."
Grandpa: "What?"
Son'ô "by the time I want to beat me" (it says so quite sought after for so little, incorrigible Japanese)
Page 17
Son'ô: "Now that I'm free, I can fight with anyone", "Even with people to whom I am related by blood"
Grandpa: "Who you want to fight?", "What are you up?"
 

andy3004

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The flu hit me and I was down for the count during the weekend (and still don't feel too hot currently).

To put it short:

Chapter 316:
Kiichi suspects that Son'O might be in fact Phantom Joe. Seiko considers that to be just bullshit, and as the last page shows, he's right about it. The short dialog between the two shows that they know each other, but they do not seem to be in cahoots.

Chapter 317:
Confirms the aforementioned. The flashback shows that Son'O trained under the same martial artist as Phantom Joe (which explains why both show similar skills).
The chapter also seems to reconfirm that Phantom Joe is a worse menace than even Kiryuu ever was: Kiryuu does evil things, because he obviously believes in the 'survival of the fittest' theory (with a strange twist, admittedly), whereas Phantom Joe performs his mutilation and crippling stuff, because he thinks what he does is 'good' and 'rightful'.

Seems next chapter will hail us with a showdown between Phantom Joe and Son'O...
 

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andy3004

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Thx! I'm more or less alive and kicking again.

As you could probably guess from the rather small amount of text in this chapter, there wasn't much going on storywise:

Son'o reminds Kenshi (i.e.: Phantom Joe) that he is not following the teaching of his sensei (being peaceful, fighting only for defense, etc.), whereas Kenshi says that he wants to defeat Son'o, Seiko and finally Kiichi. Both exchange blows for a while, then Kenshi states that he intends to destroy Nadashinkageryuu and thus show the world the power of Yuugenshinkageryuu, and points to the fact that he already brought down Kiryuu, who is considered the strongest of Nadashinkageryuu. Both fight for a few more pages, and then Son'o stops Kenshis attack and says:
"Do you really think that you defeated that Kiryuu?" To which Kenshi acts with surprise. (Next and final page shows Kiryuu in hospital opening his eyes)


Judging from the undertones in the speech, it seems that Kenshi bears a certain kind of grudge against Son'o because of some thing occurring in the past, when Son'o started to study under Kenshis sensei... not quite sure about it, but there are some nuances in both Son'os and Kenshis words that indicate that... but judging from the way Tough has been told during the past 72+ Tankobons, we'll surely get a complete backdrop on those events sooner or later too, I would assume.


Also, I am not completely sure what Son'os line about "that Kiryuu" is supposed to mean...

First of all, he could refer to the fact that Kiryuu to most people seems to be someone whom you just cannot kill (the splash lines on the final page also translates as something like: "The immortal devil rises again..."). However this seems to be a bit odd to me. Currently, Son'o is depicted as being superior to both Seiko and Kiryuu (he fought both and had no problem leisurely defending their attacks), and he has a much harder time fighting against Kenshi...

Another possible explanation could be, that Kiryuu currently is no longer the powerful monster he once was... That one sounds a bit less odd to me: After all, at the end of the first series of Tough, Kiryuu stopped his final attack against Seiko (which otherwise probably would have spelled *death* for Seiko) and he even refrained from taking the other half of the "Cursed Technique" scroll destroyed it instead.
He also no longer talked about annihilating Nadashinkageryuu, instead he used his Acupuncture skills to cure Seiko, seemed to be on better terms with his own father (in the first series, he used his incomplete Cursed Technique on the old guy, causing him to see monsters everywhere) and started to train and teach Kiichi.
Also, it seems that the death of his son later in the series actually touched him... Cannot be sure about it, because it was never mentioned in a single word, but I have seldom seen a scene more full of mourning than on the graveyard where Kiryuu was kneeling in front of his sons grave. Also, this event seems to have brought the whole Miyazawa family closer together again - in the beginning of the series, Kiichis goal was to beat the shit out of Kiryuu - currently he was about to protect him against Phantom Joe, and both he and Seiko are obviously worried about him.

ma... just my 2 cents

ja ne~
 

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What happens in this new chapter? Kiryu reborn from its ashes like the phoenix to the amazement of his family members (a little too much for me), and Son'O seems to take precedence over Joe Phantom.

All Miyazawa family members may be found at the dojo of the Yûgenshikageryu in the next chapters.
 

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In the new chapter, Son'o speaks out what he meant regarding "Kenshi not fightig the *real* Kiryuu".

According to Son'o, Kiryuu possesses a similar talent to the particular one Kiichi holds: being able to grasp a fighting technique by enduring its impact. And Son'o seems quite positive that Kiryuu by now may have mastered the 'mourou-ken' attack, which Kenshi used to defeat Kiryuu.
Furthermore, Son'o mentions that he thinks that Kiryuu never used his full strength when fighting Kenshi, otherwise Kiryuu would just have finished him instead.

Kenshi refuses to believe that anyone would endure such a thing (i.e.: being almost killed, just to get stronger) and charges again, and apparently Son'o manages to break Kenshis arm.

In the hospital, Kiryuu has awoken, and he orders Kiichi to follow him, because he has found/understood (not sure about it before I read the next chapters) something about Kiichis *real* Father.
 

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The fight seems over. Son'O is really impressive. He controls his opponent with a disconcerting ease.
 

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Not that much dialog in the new chapter either: basically during the ongoing fight, Son'O says that Kiichi is able to command the same kind of skill which Kusakabe Jouichirou (the late master of Yûgenshinkageryû) possessed.
(If my memory serves me right, Kiichi applied such a technique during his battle against Choushou in the first series of Tough.)
Phantom Joe then asks if Son'O believes Jouichirou to be Kiichis father, but Son'O answers that Jouichirou already died before Kiichi was born, and thus there is only one single person to come into consideration. Phantom Joe tries to escape, but Son'O easily catches up with him and continues to assault him.
Meanwhile, Kiiryuu is taking Kiichi and the other Miyazawa family members to the old dojo of Yûgenshinkageryû. Despite still being injured, he claims that it's important to go there, because the truth about Kiichis father might be revealed there. They arrive and stand in front of Jouichirous buddhist-tombstone, and only seconds later, Phantom Joes lifeless body comes flying in through the front-door too.
 

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How much of an effect will RawParadise's demise have on Tough?

I always got my raws from there.
RawParadises demise won't have any effect on 'Tough'.
What the heck makes you think that there is any effect???
The Manga-series will continue to be published on a weekly base in the same magazine that it appeared in since the early 90th.
 
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