Rachel for gods sake, he came tower chasing her! And don't give me "she was mother to him". No she wasn't, and up until Khuns coma in the last arcs of 2-n season, he was still clinging to that dream called "be with Rachel", that's why Androssi was so pissed and in first season and especially in the secund. Possibility of other pairings where overshadowed by hint's, like Raks announcement that Yeon is Baams wife(literally), or whole Garam's arc when she spat out for Androssi and Yuri, that they need to decide what is Baam for them(yes she was talking to Androssi directly, but considering that Yuri were standing right next to her, this pretty much was warning to her too).
Baam, imho, is repeating Zahards journey, but with completely different goals and approach, so it's safe to say that there will be love triangle in the story, and the resolve of it will determine the end of the story too. I already said how Siu can insert artificially harem in the story, but for that he must be afraid of loosing big chunk of readers due to their outrage around his decision for Baams endgame pairing.
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Anaks mother will disagree with that. As far as we know, Androssi was never a good Zahard princess to begin with, so there is no surprise that she will break another rule for her own selfish goals, especially for her hearts desire. I'm not saying that this is adamant pairing for her(there are other candidates too), or it must be done immediately, but it's best outcome for her, if, or when Baams rejected her finally, by going for another woman(she don't want to loos hope because for now Baam is free man for now). I do not believe that she will accept being cheerleader in Baams platonic harem(like in cheap harem ecci animes from japan, where the mc have one favourite gal, but others are pretending that they still have "chance" to win mc over). she ain't Hwa Ryun, with zealous devotion for FUG's slayer(God), or Yeon Yihwa with blind obsession over Baams light.
At most Baam's pining over Rachel is platonic (and that ship has sailed either way). You shoot down the mother role that she quite CLEARLY played for him, so we obviously disagree there.
Tell you what... What is the biggest example of something romantic or sexual or even interest beyond the bonds of friendship that Baam has ever shown?
For ANY female.
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Saying a character is a dumpster fire isn't allowed?
At most Baam's pining over Rachel is platonic (and that ship has sailed either way). You shoot down the mother role that she quite CLEARLY played for him, so we obviously disagree there.
Tell you what... What is the biggest example of something romantic or sexual or even interest beyond the bonds of friendship that Baam has ever shown?
She also played his best friend, sister, first love and all together. Also, you do not run after your "mother" and start chasing her like some crazy obsessed maniac, because she decided to take another step in her life, in which you ain't present.
Romantic? Not so much, but how he tried to stop Rachel from entering the tower can be described as much. Anime captured that perfectly. Also we perfectly well knew that SIU can't write romance, if his life even depended on it(best case example is Ilmar, who fell in love with Goseng instantly with no courting or other romance trade roots, just like that, so same will do for Baam, if SIU someday decided to pair him with anyone from this list, that's way I don't give a damn f...k about Baam showing romantic affection towards anyone, because problem ain't in Baam, but is in SIU's inability to write romance to begin with).
She also played his best friend, sister, first love and all together. Also, you do not run after your "mother" and start chasing her like some crazy obsessed maniac, because she decided to take another step in her life, in which you ain't present.
Romantic? Not so much, but how he tried to stop Rachel from entering the tower can be described as much. Anime captured that perfectly. Also we perfectly well knew that SIU can't write romance, if his life even depended on it(best case example is Ilmar, who fell in love with Goseng instantly with no courting or other romance trade roots, just like that, so same will do for Baam, if SIU someday decided to pair him with anyone from this list, that's way I don't give a damn f...k about Baam showing romantic affection towards anyone, because problem ain't in Baam, but is in SIU's inability to write romance to begin with).
- Please explain the "first love" element of their relationship. Given the webtoon alone I'm not seeing that at all. I could be wrong.
- The anime takes liberties. It shows more sexual tension between Baam and AA than anyone else. Those little 'moments' didn't happen in the toon. Some people like that shit so whatever, but it's not from the story.
Yes, it shows him blushing when he 'mounted' Rachel but that was also not the case in the toon. It wasn't Simba and Nala giving 'fuck me eyes' vibes to each other. Baam was merely physically restraining her.
- Baam has never once since had enough a hint of dialogue or internal thought about Rachel in any romantic sense.
- regardless they are broken up irrespective of what kind of relationship they shared
- characters, and people IRL, quite often seek out their 'mother' in partners, or strongly desire a motherly figure. This isn't novel. It's the male equivalent of 'daddy issues' for a female. Rachel fulfilled the MISSING mother role Baam needed (we all desire) in literally every aspect. Wires clearly got crossed. As 'ick' as it is Baam is chasing after a mother figure. At least SIU has spared us the sexual desire to go full Electra complex on us. Though SIU does have an axis character named Oedipus... So there's that.
- regardless of it all you kind of prove my point at the end - SIU can't, and doesn't, write romance. It's all but and up to including being completely missing from ToG
Ah, you're correct. I was just talking about the Electra complex of the 'princesses' as also potential wives in a thread and had that stuck in my mind. At least that time I got the gender implications correct.
So it's even worse. One of the *most powerful* characters SIU can even imagine is named Oedipus while his MC is pining after a mother figure. Case closed I'd say.
Also, watch your mouth. Calling Rachel a beast isn't allowed here.
- Please explain the "first love" element of their relationship. Given the webtoon alone I'm not seeing that at all. I could be wrong.
- The anime takes liberties. It shows more sexual tension between Baam and AA than anyone else. Those little 'moments' didn't happen in the toon. Some people like that shit so whatever, but it's not from the story.
Yes, it shows him blushing when he 'mounted' Rachel but that was also not the case in the toon. It wasn't Simba and Nala giving 'fuck me eyes' vibes to each other. Baam was merely physically restraining her.
- Baam has never once since had enough a hint of dialogue or internal thought about Rachel in any romantic sense.
- regardless they are broken up irrespective of what kind of relationship they shared
- characters, and people IRL, quite often seek out their 'mother' in partners, or strongly desire a motherly figure. This isn't novel. It's the male equivalent of 'daddy issues' for a female. Rachel fulfilled the MISSING mother role Baam needed (we all desire) in literally every aspect. Wires clearly got crossed. As 'ick' as it is Baam is chasing after a mother figure. At least SIU has spared us the sexual desire to go full Electra complex on us. Though SIU does have an axis character named Oedipus... So there's that.
- regardless of it all you kind of prove my point at the end - SIU can't, and doesn't, write romance. It's all but and up to including being completely missing from ToG
This is impossible to explain. Sometimes you can’t comprehend your own feelings even if it is a love. We see manhwa different ways, something that is black for me you will see as red or yellow.
There is a romance but it is always shown to us as de facto established something. This is the reason that I don’t give a damn f...k about Baams 0 romance development in TOG, because I’m absolutely sure, that if time come Siu will give him girlfriend/mate/wifie just like that, instantly. Be it represented post factum or developed in Ilmar/Goseng way.
This is impossible to explain. Sometimes you can’t comprehend your own feelings even if it is a love. We see manhwa different ways, something that is black for me you will see as red or yellow.
I can understand the subjective nature of art - in this case a manhwa. We can take different opinions away or see certain differing things - or even read into something that's not there at all.
That said *I* can explain the friendship component - because that's at the very least shown (if not more, but you can't explain it). I don't know what to do if you can't explain the 'love' side of things. I'm not saying you're wrong per se - just that I personally don't see it and if there's something I'm missing feel free to point it out. Otherwise, I would have to think you're reading your desires into the story, perhaps assuming, and while we CAN see the friendly, platonic side we can't (as you say) see the lovey-dovey side and I just have to take your word it's there. Even though as you are about to admit it's completely out of character for Baam and SIU via Baam to show romantic desires...
There is a romance but it is always shown to us as de facto established something. This is the reason that I don’t give a damn f...k about Baams 0 romance development in TOG, because I’m absolutely sure, that if time come Siu will give him girlfriend/mate/wifie just like that, instantly. Be it represented post factum or developed in Ilmar/Goseng way.
OK, but we've come full circle. The point I made that you took issue with is that Baam has shown no romantic desire for anyone - which you freely admit as much here. To do so would be out of his character as it hasn't been shown in any way - "0 romance development" as you put it.
As such, everything in this thread goes against his character as he's not shown in any romantic light. Again, I was saying it's all just wishful thinking and no matter how well someone thinks their pairing is or has been curated for Baam it's useless if Baam himself never shows interest.
Thus, harem is the only answer that fulfills everyone's desires to see Baam with X, Y, or Z - albeit not exclusively.
You then said that 'harem' is out of Baam's character. To which I say ANY of these pairings are out of his character. Now you're basically saying the same thing. I'm not even sure what the contention is anymore.
I can understand the subjective nature of art - in this case a manhwa. We can take different opinions away or see certain differing things - or even read into something that's not there at all.
That said *I* can explain the friendship component - because that's at the very least shown (if not more, but you can't explain it). I don't know what to do if you can't explain the 'love' side of things. I'm not saying you're wrong per se - just that I personally don't see it and if there's something I'm missing feel free to point it out. Otherwise, I would have to think you're reading your desires into the story, perhaps assuming, and while we CAN see the friendly, platonic side we can't (as you say) see the lovey-dovey side and I just have to take your word it's there. Even though as you are about to admit it's completely out of character for Baam and SIU via Baam to show romantic desires...
Siu do not comment on Baams feelings towards Rachel, there is no direct description of them. We are free to think anything about them, you think it’s friendship? Be as you wish, I thinking it’s more deep and complex, so I’m right too. I admitted only that Siu can’t write romance, not that Baam can’t be romantic. No one can in the tower, because Siu can’t write them romantically. Every character in this manhwa are portrayed as wooden planks, when it comes to romantic aspect of feelings, or given post factum reasons to behave like wooden planks(Kaiser).
OK, but we've come full circle. The point I made that you took issue with is that Baam has shown no romantic desire for anyone - which you freely admit as much here. To do so would be out of his character as it hasn't been shown in any way - "0 romance development" as you put it.
As such, everything in this thread goes against his character as he's not shown in any romantic light. Again, I was saying it's all just wishful thinking and no matter how well someone thinks their pairing is or has been curated for Baam it's useless if Baam himself never shows interest.
Thus, harem is the only answer that fulfills everyone's desires to see Baam with X, Y, or Z - albeit not exclusively.
You then said that 'harem' is out of Baam's character. To which I say ANY of these pairings are out of his character. Now you're basically saying the same thing. I'm not even sure what the contention is anymore.
The problem is here, that you said that it is out of character for Baam, which it isn’t. If tog was a romance manga where Baam would behave like he behaves as usual in our non romantic version of tog, then your words will be true, because it would go against Baams asexual behavior. But the problem is that everyone in the TOG, even the ones who are supposed to be in “love” are behaving like Baam. That’s way I do not consider Baams asexualness as his trait ,but rather it’s Siu’s inability to wright human feelings when it comes to love.
I said it would be out of Baams character, because he is the type of guys who will love one woman untill the end(Rachel example, when he despite being surrounded by new friends and potential love interests, was thinking only about Rachel).
Also he respects his friends, he would never turn females in his friend circle into cheap breeding vessels for fan, THIS is out of his real character. His respect and love would never let him to disrespect and dishonor them like that. This is the main point where we disagree, you think that Baams asexualness is his personal trait, when it is in reality Siu’s inability to write romance and romantic behavior.
If we are going from this point, then this tread make sense, not from point of romance development, which would never happen because SIU can’t write, not because characters can’t love romantically , but rather from point fo logical development of story. The proof of this are already existing pairs in the story(Anaks mother and kook, Baams parents and zahard, Garam-Urek, Yuras parents, Blossom-Gustang, Ilmar-Goseng). But even for them Siu weren’t able to write romantic root, and he just introduced their relationships as post factum established. Same goes for Baam, he ain’t asexual, Siu just don’t want to pair him with anybody, YET.
Yes, I know that harem exists in Tog universe, but the owner of it is complete opposite of Baam, Edvan Khun loves only himself and his perverted desires, Baams isn’t like that, he isn’t the type of person who wouldn’t use anybody to fulfill his desire, especially in THAT way. This is the reason that I disagree with harem root, not because it can’t be possible be done, but for that you need turn Baam into someone like Edvan Khun.
The problem is here, that you said that it is out of character for Baam, which it isn’t. If tog was a romance manga where Baam would behave like he behaves as usual in our non romantic version of tog, then your words will be true, because it would go against Baams asexual behavior. But the problem is that everyone in the TOG, even the ones who are supposed to be in “love” are behaving like Baam. That’s way I do not consider Baams asexualness as his trait ,but rather it’s Siu’s inability to wright human feelings when it comes to love.
I said it would be out of Baams character, because he is the type of guys who will love one woman untill the end(Rachel example, when he despite being surrounded by new friends and potential love interests, was thinking only about Rachel).
Also he respects his friends, he would never turn females in his friend circle into cheap breeding vessels for fan, THIS is out of his real character. His respect and love would never let him to disrespect and dishonor them like that. This is the main point where we disagree, you think that Baams asexualness is his personal trait, when it is in reality Siu’s inability to write romance and romantic behavior.
If we are going from this point, then this tread make sense, not from point of romance development, which would never happen because SIU can’t write, not because characters can’t love romantically , but rather from point fo logical development of story. The proof of this are already existing pairs in the story(Anaks mother and kook, Baams parents and zahard, Garam-Urek, Yuras parents, Blossom-Gustang, Ilmar-Goseng). But even for them Siu weren’t able to write romantic root, and he just introduced their relationships as post factum established. Same goes for Baam, he ain’t asexual, Siu just don’t want to pair him with anybody, YET.
Yes, I know that harem exists in Tog universe, but the owner of it is complete opposite of Baam, Edvan Khun loves only himself and his perverted desires, Baams isn’t like that, he isn’t the type of person who wouldn’t use anybody to fulfill his desire, especially in THAT way. This is the reason that I disagree with harem root, not because it can’t be possible be done, but for that you need turn Baam into someone like Edvan Khun.
I partially agree with what your saying and I think it's very well said. I'm not really on board with the Rachel part of it as I do consider that more of a parental relationship, as odd as that is. But I definitely agree with that idea that SIU's approach to romance can be viewed a couple ways.
One is that SIU just isn't good at it, which is not an unusual flaw for a writer to have. The other is that he's Baam's sort lack of any really romantic involvement is a deliberate character choice which is also, I think, entirely possible.
Not really sure what the truth is but I would like to believe that latter. As Baam has climbed the tower he has awakened a lot of new emotions (Many of them negative unfortunately) and seeing romantic love become one of them is really appealing to me. I mean, it's not amazing but we do have one real romance subplot that SIU wrote right? Horyang and Goseng. It wasn't the most in depth thing but he did go from them meeting to being a couple. In a way, I guess Cha and Dowon stands a good chance at being the second. Which... I'm not the biggest fan of the characters themselves but I do like that subplot quite a bit. So I feel like he can do that at least somewhat, even if so far he's only done it with very minor characters which might point to the idea that he's really not comfortable doing it.
The interesting thing there to me is that I think SIU has shown a lot of ability when it comes to building up one side of romantic subplot and he makes appealing enough characters that I certainly want to see him delve into that more than he has. So the pieces are there.
And I am with Jubei on wanting a harem route. But a harem route more than almost any other is so reliant on working the characters into that. If the female characters just end up being like waifu trophies. That's a bad situation because it's not romantic at all. It's a tricky thing to pull off for that reason. At it's best the harem route allows for a ton of romance to be injected into a series. It is high risk, high reward.
I partially agree with what your saying and I think it's very well said. I'm not really on board with the Rachel part of it as I do consider that more of a parental relationship, as odd as that is. But I definitely agree with that idea that SIU's approach to romance can be viewed a couple ways.
One is that SIU just isn't good at it, which is not an unusual flaw for a writer to have. The other is that he's Baam's sort lack of any really romantic involvement is a deliberate character choice which is also, I think, entirely possible.
Not really sure what the truth is but I would like to believe that latter. As Baam has climbed the tower he has awakened a lot of new emotions (Many of them negative unfortunately) and seeing romantic love become one of them is really appealing to me. I mean, it's not amazing but we do have one real romance subplot that SIU wrote right? Horyang and Goseng. It wasn't the most in depth thing but he did go from them meeting to being a couple. In a way, I guess Cha and Dowon stands a good chance at being the second. Which... I'm not the biggest fan of the characters themselves but I do like that subplot quite a bit. So I feel like he can do that at least somewhat, even if so far he's only done it with very minor characters which might point to the idea that he's really not comfortable doing it.
The interesting thing there to me is that I think SIU has shown a lot of ability when it comes to building up one side of romantic subplot and he makes appealing enough characters that I certainly want to see him delve into that more than he has. So the pieces are there.
And I am with Jubei on wanting a harem route. But a harem route more than almost any other is so reliant on working the characters into that. If the female characters just end up being like waifu trophies. That's a bad situation because it's not romantic at all. It's a tricky thing to pull off for that reason. At it's best the harem route allows for a ton of romance to be injected into a series. It is high risk, high reward.
For Rachel I said all I wanted to say, nothing to add more, she was EVERYTHING from him, until well known incident.
Like I said
1. He can't write romance because he don't know how to write them(it's not a character trait for Baam to be asexual, as many thinks).
2.He still don't want to pair Baam with anyone, but if he decided to pair him, we will be introduced to HER immediately and in the most blatant way possible.
Yes, I agree that he can crate good characters and background to make romance happen, but his inability's on this front, usually makes romance impossible to happen.
I respect you desire to see harem root happen in TOG, but I personally would hate it and I will be disgusted of Baam because of it. For me it would ruin his character in core. I have deeply negative opinion about harem, be it harem from females or males doesn't matter, I can't stand it, as much as yaoi. So if SIU would go insane, and say, pair Baam with Khun I will drop manhwa immediately. Same would go for Harem, even if the first wife will be Yuri and harem will be like in Rosario + vampire type. Still, I will drop it.
To be fair we don't know really his physical (or mental) state. His body was preserved with magic, which may still be having an effect. He could be indwelled by an outside god - motivations unknown - wearing him as a flesh-suit. Rachel has described him as a "monster" specifically. And his growth and vacuum ability aren't like any other irregular the tower has seen. In this way he could very well be something like a zombie... that just wears it really well and looks really good. Convincing to everyone as a 'real-life boy!' yet he's still Pinocchio at the end of the day. There's definitely something off about him...
Siu do not comment on Baams feelings towards Rachel, there is no direct description of them. We are free to think anything about them, you think it’s friendship? Be as you wish, I thinking it’s more deep and complex, so I’m right too. I admitted only that Siu can’t write romance, not that Baam can’t be romantic. No one can in the tower, because Siu can’t write them romantically. Every character in this manhwa are portrayed as wooden planks, when it comes to romantic aspect of feelings, or given post factum reasons to behave like wooden planks(Kaiser).
Right, but I can show how his actions and words are that of a friend - because that's how he treats her and that's the dialogue in response to her. You, by your own admission, can't show how his actions or words have ANY romantic inkling. No one has to 'believe' the friendship element is there because it's shown as such. But we have to believe for anything more (love) that isn't shown. That's the difference.
Would I be "right" as well if I said that Baam only wanted to hate-bang Rachel and that's why he's climbing after her (or was)? Because even though it's not shown, it could be, therefor 'it's there.' That's the exact same logic you're using to me. Or would that just be assumption and reading into the story a bit - although MAYBE one day proven true?
The problem is here, that you said that it is out of character for Baam, which it isn’t. If tog was a romance manga where Baam would behave like he behaves as usual in our non romantic version of tog, then your words will be true, because it would go against Baams asexual behavior. But the problem is that everyone in the TOG, even the ones who are supposed to be in “love” are behaving like Baam. That’s way I do not consider Baams asexualness as his trait ,but rather it’s Siu’s inability to wright human feelings when it comes to love.
Actually, I think the problem lies in you conflating what Baam COULD do with what he HAS done. I think we both agree he hasn't SHOWN any romantic interest in anyone in any overt way. If that's SIU's 'fault' or by design we can only guess at.
As such IF Baam were to ONE DAY show romantic interest in someone that would be in stark contrast to what we've seen. You could say it would even be 'out of character' from what we've explicitly seen. Although it COULD have 'always been in there' until SIU decides to write it in.
Alternatively, I could make the argument that Baam is a genocidal, murderous psychopath with this logic. We've seen his ability to rationalize coldly in the moment. We've also seen him turn it off to get something done - Viole Baam. We've even seen him kill and not even flinch. Taken to its logical conclusion maybe Baam will have the revelation that he has to do what he has to do to 'save' the tower. He could even rationalize such a decision. Would be a WAY more interesting Baam than one that waxes on repeatedly about putting his friends in danger all the time, but I digress. Think more what happens to Griffin in Berserk.
Anyways, have we seen overt examples of Baam being genocidal? No. (well, when he enters the Cage with 'rain' it comes close...). But, don't worry, it's there. Or so goes the logic and reasoning it seems you're using here ('trust me... I see something different than you so we're both right' you say). So when it is FINALLY shown it won't then be out of character, it will be consistent, because it was always there, even though we never have seen it before...
I said it would be out of Baams character, because he is the type of guys who will love one woman untill the end(Rachel example, when he despite being surrounded by new friends and potential love interests, was thinking only about Rachel).
A non-romantic Baam has shown no interest in one let alone more than one. Guessing at his level of monogamy is just that, guesswork. What if he were in a love triangle? That's not atypical, not even for 'good-guy' MC's. We don't know what we don't know.
As for Rachel, she was the object of his obsession, sure. But that was a non-romantic obsession as you admit in action/dialogue, though we disagree on internal feelings (also not shown or hinted at by the way). It was his goal to reunite - but to help her climb. Not to settle down and have babies. To pay her back for the joy and development she brought to him. He has since reconsidered.
NOW, Baam has another obsession - rescue princess Jinsung. He is, much like with Rachel, dead-set on his objective and will move heaven and earth to do so. His actions and motivation for helping one or the other is all but identical (he's equally motivated to the point you can't tell apart his level of obsession to complete the task), though the object as an individual has changed.
Is it then a romantic relationship he shares with Jinsung by your logic??
Also he respects his friends, he would never turn females in his friend circle into cheap breeding vessels for fan, THIS is out of his real character. His respect and love would never let him to disrespect and dishonor them like that. This is the main point where we disagree, you think that Baams asexualness is his personal trait, when it is in reality Siu’s inability to write romance and romantic behavior.
I think I'm only pointing out what SIU has shown us so far, not assuming I know where he'll go with it. As such I have to believe that Baam is asexual as that is what we're getting. If SIU is unable to write romance then that part of Baam is particularly not subject to change. If he can but he's just not then Baam is like that for a reason.
As far as the harem semi-joke of sorts I keep repeating, I'll point to Eduan and the borderline moral argument below. You think this can only be portrayed by a monster (set aside the hints that Baam might really BE a monster going on what Rachel says and the shit that lives inside him). It's been shown - in manga specifically - just in a comedic way or horn-ball way or simply a non-violent, can't-decide-who-I-like-the-best sort of way. Zahard set the mold as the 'breeding vessels' type of ruler. Ironically enough, future princesses still step up knowing their potential fate and the competition that it entails. Women are WILLING in ToG to subjugate themselves in based ways to be higher in the political food chain and have more power and authority. It's not out of character. Even Yuri and Androssi - two potential suitors and popular Baam ships - have stepped up to this reality.
And Devil's advocate what if end-game Baam, crowned king of the tower or whatever equivalent, wants to indulge in the females throwing themselves at him? What if the journey up the tower changed him, like Zahard, and that is what the real story is how history repeats itself or you can't replace a despot or the tower can change even the purest of hearts? What if he just wants to be a Bacchanalian king, much like Eduan is said to be (I'm not sure we've heard complaints by any of his mates)? What if, like groupies, the female figures are just happy to be in the presence of god-king Baam?
If we are going from this point, then this tread make sense, not from point of romance development, which would never happen because SIU can’t write, not because characters can’t love romantically , but rather from point fo logical development of story. The proof of this are already existing pairs in the story(Anaks mother and kook, Baams parents and zahard, Garam-Urek, Yuras parents, Blossom-Gustang, Ilmar-Goseng). But even for them Siu weren’t able to write romantic root, and he just introduced their relationships as post factum established. Same goes for Baam, he ain’t asexual, Siu just don’t want to pair him with anybody, YET.
Maybe not EVER, right? Funnily enough, every one of those relationships you cite has been completely wasted, broken, and only described superficially at best for the sake of plot progression as opposed to the warmth they shared as a couple. I'm not sure if SIU can't write romance, or rather he only knows how to write tragedies of romance. If that theme is extended to Baam, who knows what a "relationship" for him could look like.
I think a lot of people get side-tracked by 'pew-pew fights' or 'girl X is best girl/waifu' or 'Baam has the power of friends' to forget that the tower is a DARK place. The circumstances around Baam are DARK. What he has been fated to do is DARK. Those around him have been involved in DARK events. It's kill-or-be-killed, with a lot of adult and depressing/DARK themes. This is not a tower of sunshine and rainbows, no matter how many times Rak makes a funny fart joke or Androssi strikes a pose.
ToG is a tragedy for everyone involved, to include Baam. But you think this will end with friend-power and Baam happily on a throne with one main girl in a completely loving and fulfilled relationship and all his friends still living and hanging around singing Kumbaya? (Well, maybe going by what he's done in the latest chapter...) But certainly if you look at the big picture of mature themes, loss, and tragedy of the tower - and the FLAWS of the MC - I don't see it ended in a shounen paradise.
Yes, I know that harem exists in Tog universe, but the owner of it is complete opposite of Baam, Edvan Khun loves only himself and his perverted desires, Baams isn’t like that, he isn’t the type of person who wouldn’t use anybody to fulfill his desire, especially in THAT way. This is the reason that I disagree with harem root, not because it can’t be possible be done, but for that you need turn Baam into someone like Edvan Khun.
Data Eduan seemed like a decent guy. I'm not here to argue morals (God forbid, someone somewhere here would have an aneurysm for being 'off topic'), but you are under the assumption here that a polygamist (particularly in fantasy) has to be an asshole with Zahard-complex as opposed to someone with lots of love to give in more of a 'Don Juan' sort of way.
There have been historical figures with many wives IRL that treated their wives like gold, say what you will about the polygamy aspect.
Regardless of all, 'harem' is my semi-jokingly way of answering the OP's prompt as it is the only choice that allows for EVERYONE to get their wish here, as fans. I think sarcasm and levity are lost on many here.
TLDR? Everything romantic from Baam is out of character as it hasn't been shown at all.
To be fair we don't know really his physical (or mental) state. His body was preserved with magic, which may still be having an effect. He could be indwelled by an outside god - motivations unknown - wearing him as a flesh-suit. Rachel has described him as a "monster" specifically. And his growth and vacuum ability aren't like any other irregular the tower has seen. In this way he could very well be something like a zombie... that just wears it really well and looks really good. Convincing to everyone as a 'real-life boy!' yet he's still Pinocchio at the end of the day. There's definitely something off about him...
Friend, this is suggestion in conspiracy theory level. Also I wouldn't believe Rachel words in 100%, she easily can twist and bent it for only known to her reasons(not good ones for sure).
Right, but I can show how his actions and words are that of a friend - because that's how he treats her and that's the dialogue in response to her. You, by your own admission, can't show how his actions or words have ANY romantic inkling. No one has to 'believe' the friendship element is there because it's shown as such. But we have to believe for anything more (love) that isn't shown. That's the difference.
Would I be "right" as well if I said that Baam only wanted to hate-bang Rachel and that's why he's climbing after her (or was)? Because even though it's not shown, it could be, therefor 'it's there.' That's the exact same logic you're using to me. Or would that just be assumption and reading into the story a bit - although MAYBE one day proven true?
Same story again, we are circling. You can show me everything you want it wouldn't change my perspective of their relationship. Heck, sometimes we don't know the genders of characters, until SIU blatantly tell us. either way, we will remain in the same situation that we were before this discussion. We were fooled by SIU so many times, when the feelings and things show to us was complete opposite what they actual were. The difference here between us, that I understand this, that there are things that can be changed by SIU, which will contradict from the information we got in the beginning, but there are thing that can't be changed, because changing it will destroy the core concept of the tower and logic of towers "physics".
Actually, I think the problem lies in you conflating what Baam COULD do with what he HAS done. I think we both agree he hasn't SHOWN any romantic interest in anyone in any overt way. If that's SIU's 'fault' or by design we can only guess at.
As such IF Baam were to ONE DAY show romantic interest in someone that would be in stark contrast to what we've seen. You could say it would even be 'out of character' from what we've explicitly seen. Although it COULD have 'always been in there' until SIU decides to write it in.
Alternatively, I could make the argument that Baam is a genocidal, murderous psychopath with this logic. We've seen his ability to rationalize coldly in the moment. We've also seen him turn it off to get something done - Viole Baam. We've even seen him kill and not even flinch. Taken to its logical conclusion maybe Baam will have the revelation that he has to do what he has to do to 'save' the tower. He could even rationalize such a decision. Would be a WAY more interesting Baam than one that waxes on repeatedly about putting his friends in danger all the time, but I digress. Think more what happens to Griffin in Berserk.
Anyways, have we seen overt examples of Baam being genocidal? No. (well, when he enters the Cage with 'rain' it comes close...). But, don't worry, it's there. Or so goes the logic and reasoning it seems you're using here ('trust me... I see something different than you so we're both right' you say). So when it is FINALLY shown it won't then be out of character, it will be consistent, because it was always there, even though we never have seen it before...
"you could say it would even be 'out of character' from what we've explicitly seen."
No, it wouldn't, because you interpreted my words wrongly. I brought example of how SIU can't write romance, I did it by comparing Baam with other introduced characters and all of them were asexual like him. I will said that, if he could write romance, the he will turn Baam into asexual, but out of nowhere turn him back into crazy love addict maniac. SIU can't write romance and the only way he could pair people is like he did with Ilmar, same logic works for Baam and basically everyone in the tower.(Example, you write fanfic about world of Batman, but you cant write detective story, because you are bad in maths, so you write only "relationships" and deceptive part is present there as post-factum or in a simplest level, same logic works for SIU with his inability to write romance, it's not Batman who are stupid and can't show his detective work or abilities of his brilliant brain, but the stupid one here is the author himself who can't write hardcore detective stories in the level of Sherlock Holmes or Agata Christi).
You can argue about the shape of love Baam have towards Rachel, but you can't argue about how shinsu work(for regulars and non regulars) or who is the king of the tower, it is established fact. I was talking about something that were shown, but the interpretation of it was left on readers. You read his road and build up with Rachel, and decided that they are friends(but I didn't).
"Alternatively, I could make the argument that Baam is a genocidal, murderous psychopath with this logic. We've seen his ability to rationalize coldly in the moment. We've also seen him turn it off to get something done - Viole Baam. We've even seen him kill and not even flinch. Taken to its logical conclusion maybe Baam will have the revelation that he has to do what he has to do to 'save' the tower. He could even rationalize such a decision. Would be a WAY more interesting Baam than one that waxes on repeatedly about putting his friends in danger all the time, but I digress. Think more what happens to Griffin in Berserk. "
You could, and yes this Baam will be more complex, but this person wouldn't be the same Baam that we knowe and love, same logic goes to Griffits, who was reborn as something evil, something that isn't human, something that wasn't him prove is Gats himself and his blacksmith friend, who said that maybe he have same goals, but the means of achieving it are completely different, also Baam is highly unlikely to turn something like Griff, because he isn't envious and his goals is to be happy with his friends and find truth rather than rule it Zahard who are Griffits equivalent in TOG, who turned his back on his friends and even destroyed some of them to gain power and achieve his ultimate goals, so if Baam turns into that, then SIU's 10 years of character development are trashed and meaningless, it will be his suicide, so I don't believe in a second that he ill go into that road, despite it being so tempting.
Although, Viole was violent one, he didn't kill, he injured his opponents, it was 3-rd season Baam that started to kill, even then he didn't kill Baraagav showing him pity, same goes to the c rank regular girl who were before that opposing him.
But then again, this is out of topic, and have 0 connection to the idea I was presenting above. this character trait exist in Baam and is a part of his self "I". But when I talked about his asexuallness I emphasised that this trait were given to all characters, without exception(old, yong, good or bad weak or strong),
"Anyways, have we seen overt examples of Baam being genocidal? No. (well, when he enters the Cage with 'rain' it comes close...). But, don't worry, it's there. Or so goes the logic and reasoning it seems you're using here ('trust me... I see something different than you so we're both right' you say). So when it is FINALLY shown it won't then be out of character, it will be consistent, because it was always there, even though we never have seen it before..."
You are using wrong logic on completely different topics to prove your point(aka if we put on ship wheels, it wouldn't be able to to move on the ground, so it won't move on the water too), which is fundamentally wrong to begin with. I never said that you can interpret yourself things that didn't exist, considering established facts and character trains. As you trying to prove here, Yes you can't do that, because it will be your delusion not the story SIU intended to show on paper. If SIU won't turn suddenly Baam into Zahard n2, there is no logical way Baam will turn himself into someone like Whit, and it could be understood by his words and for the most important part, by his actions(Baams game in Dallar show against White). Going back to griffit ad possibility of Baam turning into someone like him, you can debunk it by his rice pot travels, where the god of guardians said that this guy is a different from Zah(TOG Griffit) and instead of wanting to rule people, he wanted to be with them. It could be proven also by the fight that Baam had with Kallavan with the help of Karaka. even though Karaka was his enemy, not so much now, and that he could possibly resurrect himself, Baam willingly abandoned good chance to break the spell of the wall, when Kallavan was busy killing Karaka, but he refused and put his life on danger for FUG slayer, who possibly could be as bad as White. There is no logical way to turn Baam into Zahard, without destroying his base "me" and his core, and tarnishing 10 years of development.
A non-romantic Baam has shown no interest in one let alone more than one. Guessing at his level of monogamy is just that, guesswork. What if he were in a love triangle? That's not atypical, not even for 'good-guy' MC's. We don't know what we don't know.
As for Rachel, she was the object of his obsession, sure. But that was a non-romantic obsession as you admit in action/dialogue, though we disagree on internal feelings (also not shown or hinted at by the way). It was his goal to reunite - but to help her climb. Not to settle down and have babies. To pay her back for the joy and development she brought to him. He has since reconsidered.
NOW, Baam has another obsession - rescue princess Jinsung. He is, much like with Rachel, dead-set on his objective and will move heaven and earth to do so. His actions and motivation for helping one or the other is all but identical (he's equally motivated to the point you can't tell apart his level of obsession to complete the task), though the object as an individual has changed.
Is it then a romantic relationship he shares with Jinsung by your logic??
Love triangle ain't harem, it will eventually happen because how much gals are around Baam right now. Still, showing romantic interest had nothing to do with desire to have harem, or idea to built one. We know how Baam treats his friend and how respectful he is towards them, even towards his enemies, it's in his core character trait, and building harem will go against that trait, and it would be out of his character development that we seen during 3 seasons. It was established that Edwan Khun, who is the main know character in the TOG who have real harem, only uses it as means to procreate an satisfy his low tier desires, and treats this woman's like trash. So, for Baam to build harem, he will need to change his core "I" towards his female friend and start to view them as breeding vessels, to make harem work in TOG universe(like Edwan did), I do not even mention the main gals who are potential members of this harem, will never subjugate themself that low, just to be with Baam. It will go against their character development too.
For Rachel it's your thoughts not Baams. Because he was friend with Androssi, with Yeon, with Miseng but he never show that much affection towards them and that much will to put himself under threat of 100% death just to help them. So by your logic, if what he feels towards Rachel is just friendship, then Androssi and ko, are just nameless bypasses and have little value to Baam? Of course you can't, because they are his friends and Rachel are much much more than friend. But precisely what is Rachel were never directly shown to us(aka without direct word describing his feelings, what it was. Love towards his creator, savior, mother or lover, he said that she was his star, basically SIU let us to decide the shape of Baams love towards Rachel, he just directed us, by making understand that this feelings were "love". aka Baam himself do not understand event the depth of his feelings or the shape of them, calling someone star is shitty way to describe you own feelings towards that person, especially for the readers).
Yes he is dead set to save Jingsung, and this feelings came out of his love and devotion towards Jinsung, but this love is love towards his father figure. Please stop comparing two similar but incomparable things with each other, love can be and come in different shapes. And Baams actions that are based out of those love, can be similar, but the filings that fuelled them are different in their core and shape. So, please, stop twisting my words thy way that was never interdepended how you described, just to turn it to your own gain.
Aka. by bringing Jingsung you just enhanced my point about Baams feelings towards Rachel, that they aren't feelings towards "just a friend", but they are something more, same goes for Jinsung, he is more than fug member and his trainer, he is Baams father figure, or father that he never had. By your logic(Baam didn't say out loud I wont have sex with some gal becaus I romantically love her, for example Rachel, so it's impossible that he has romantic feelings for her), you can't consider Jingsung to be closest thing of a father which Baam never had, because he never said warm words of familiar love to him, out loud. Same goes to Rachel, Baam wasn't obvious about romantic love, but he rejected Androssi and constantly talked and dreamed about being with Rachel(you do not reject beautiful gals advises , just because of you friend/mother, because you, either, are in love with a "friend", if she was friend to begin with, or you have wrong feelings towards you mother figure, cough, Edipus syndrome, cough). Yes he wanted to help her climb the tower, but out from white kind of love? You said out of gratitude, but it's ain't describing the shape of his love towards Rachel, you can feel gratitude towards pretty much anyone. Even you enemy.
This is the only thing in this discussion, so far, that I can absolutely agree with you. There is reason why Baam is yet to be paired, and we don't know what is is and what will be trigger for it.
As far as the harem semi-joke of sorts I keep repeating, I'll point to Eduan and the borderline moral argument below. You think this can only be portrayed by a monster (set aside the hints that Baam might really BE a monster going on what Rachel says and the shit that lives inside him). It's been shown - in manga specifically - just in a comedic way or horn-ball way or simply a non-violent, can't-decide-who-I-like-the-best sort of way. Zahard set the mold as the 'breeding vessels' type of ruler. Ironically enough, future princesses still step up knowing their potential fate and the competition that it entails. Women are WILLING in ToG to subjugate themselves in based ways to be higher in the political food chain and have more power and authority. It's not out of character. Even Yuri and Androssi - two potential suitors and popular Baam ships - have stepped up to this reality.
Very bad set of gals you choose to use them as example, to say honestly. Androssi gained the power just to escape her "family" and from the beginning she showed that she isn't interested in this Battle for Zahards "heart", and even wanted to repeat Anak seniors "road" as princess, by basically using her power and influence to find good mate for her(she literally Bombarder Anak JN with questions abut her mothers life as housewife). As for Yuri, she never wanted to be princess, she never cared about acquiring 13 weapons to win the race(she even promised anak JN to give Greem Aprile back to her, when time comes, the sword, for which 2/3 other princesses will kill each other, and she will jist gave it up, as she gave up Black marc to help Baam, and that stupyd bastad still didn't got the hint, argrhahshahs, ok I'm calm, it's SIU's falt, Baam is a good pal), she wanted changes in the tower, so she is using her position as Princess and influence that comes with her to achieve her goals, but even then she didn't wanted to "marry" Zahard, becaus she initially knew how evil he was and tat by this road she will never finish her goal, she has strong personality, this is BIG no no for harem, Yes there are princesses that wanted to be with Zah out of greed, but we are talking about gals that have different set of goals in life, in which being a part of harem are will be against to what is their main goal. And what Zahard did is inhuman and monstrous, like Zah is, who don't care about anyone, is Baam like that? The whole point of the story and fight is that Baam is complete opposite of Zahard and those monsters who are in charge of 10 families. So yes, if Baam became monster and tried to built a harem, then it is possible 100%, but pretty much every one of gals mentioned above won't be part of it. I'm curious, really, where did in manga were shown hit's of harem, really. Also when I was talking against harem, I weren't talking about those pals, who considering it as joke, but for those who are dead serious about it. Yet again, I do not believe Rachels word about Baam, she is based and she hates Baam, so she can easily twist them, to just made them more hurtful to Baam, whom she addressed those lines. Also the real monsters ain't the ones who look like them outside, but the ones who behave like monsters. So far, Baam did everything to prove Rachel wrong.
Maybe not EVER, right? Funnily enough, every one of those relationships you cite has been completely wasted, broken, and only described superficially at best for the sake of plot progression as opposed to the warmth they shared as a couple. I'm not sure if SIU can't write romance, or rather he only knows how to write tragedies of romance. If that theme is extended to Baam, who knows what a "relationship" for him could look like.
Yes we don't know what is romance for him, but one, my point was, that here are examples of romance done by him, and I don't care how they ended or how they shaped the characters involved in it, I just made them for example to show that Siu can show us pairings based on romantic love. I wanted to show that he just don't want to pair Baam, and that his asexuality are the fault of SIU and his plans for Baams future, rather MCs base character trait, his self "I". So It can be good or can be bad, it doesn't matter, what matters is that it can happen, and it didn't happen yet, only because of SIU's plans for Baam.
I think a lot of people get side-tracked by 'pew-pew fights' or 'girl X is best girl/waifu' or 'Baam has the power of friends' to forget that the tower is a DARK place. The circumstances around Baam are DARK. What he has been fated to do is DARK. Those around him have been involved in DARK events. It's kill-or-be-killed, with a lot of adult and depressing/DARK themes. This is not a tower of sunshine and rainbows, no matter how many times Rak makes a funny fart joke or Androssi strikes a pose.
ToG is a tragedy for everyone involved, to include Baam. But you think this will end with friend-power and Baam happily on a throne with one main girl in a completely loving and fulfilled relationship and all his friends still living and hanging around singing Kumbaya? (Well, maybe going by what he's done in the latest chapter...) But certainly if you look at the big picture of mature themes, loss, and tragedy of the tower - and the FLAWS of the MC - I don't see it ended in a shounen paradise.
(Warning for casual readers there are some spoilers here, so do not reed this part, fi you don't know or read Siu's early works in TOG universe)Where I said otherwise? Like where? Of course there will be huge losses for Baam, despite his god like powers. He will lose friends, and lots of them, but I'm sure, considering his nature and what we seen so far, he will brake the will of gods and float of fate for loved ones as he did show us and proved to us that he CAN do it, and he WILL do it, especially for the woman whom he chooses as his final ONE. Also in the end of the tower, where he reaches, he will see(SPOILERS) exises that were the ones who created the tower to begin with, and will answer their question, so it's ease to imagine, that those almighty beings who can literally do anything they want, will grant him his wishes, as what were promised to him and everyone who entered the tower, they need to just climb till the end. So, there are no guarantees in this regard it's 50-50 situation, and all of it basically depends on SIU's mood. If he wishes to end in total tragedy, then it could be explained and vice-versa it could end in shounen paradise.
Data Eduan seemed like a decent guy. I'm not here to argue morals (God forbid, someone somewhere here would have an aneurysm for being 'off topic'), but you are under the assumption here that a polygamist (particularly in fantasy) has to be an asshole with Zahard-complex as opposed to someone with lots of love to give in more of a 'Don Juan' sort of way.
There have been historical figures with many wives IRL that treated their wives like gold, say what you will about the polygamy aspect.
Regardless of all, 'harem' is my semi-jokingly way of answering the OP's prompt as it is the only choice that allows for EVERYONE to get their wish here, as fans. I think sarcasm and levity are lost on many here.
Please give me pass on this issue, because I can answer, but it will go TOTALLY political, and this is not real world politics. For me, polygamy is a disgusting thing, and seeing Baam turning into that kind of twisted man... I don't want to, also do not have have any desire to begin with. I respect your view on polygamy, but I totally disagree with the base concept of it.
Friend, this is suggestion in conspiracy theory level. Also I wouldn't believe Rachel words in 100%, she easily can twist and bent it for only known to her reasons(not good ones for sure).
Yeah, I'm more interested in THIS comment now and why you think it's 'conspiracy'. Nothing I mention is untrue.
- Baam is host to literal demons. He's then a demoniac. He has to play the one to control their desires and motivations. We don't know if he can keep them in check forever, or what their end game is. Baam is literally legion.
- Baam is res'd flesh. This was done by a SPELL. Necromancy, no matter the intentions of the user (let's say that Arlen had a pure heart), is almost always seen as BLACK MAGIC and therefor inherently evil. Further, it usually comes with strings attached which are not usually a good thing.
- Arlen was crazy, and a literal witch (generally assumed to be a bad thing, even so-called 'good' witches use witchcraft which the world religions have pretty much decided is evil no matter the intention). We don't know the methods she used to get her or Baam out, but everything surrounding it is questionable considering her methods previous and mental state overall.
- Who says an outside 'god' is 'good'? It could be an evil god with an axe to grind or a greater plan. 'Evil gods helping you' is a trope in fantasy. So is the idea of them manifesting later and/or wanting their proverbial pound of flesh, if not taking over the host outright.
- Baam has a growth rate and consumption technique that the tower seemingly has never seen in any irregular. It could be due to the admin inside him, the outside god's wishes, his amalgamation status, remnant spell action, or whatever. But Baam CONSUMES and has been linked to a literal black-hole. This implies destruction. He's been shown as an alpha predator, a shark. But comes across as 'just a sweet boy'/Pinocchio character. How are you not seeing this juxtaposition of existence?
- Rachel's words were pretty clear. Sure, she could have been simply trying to hurt Baam with an ad hominem. But her words were specific. Baam is truly monstrous if you think about him being carried around dead in a suspended state (hopefully not rotting too much...), demonic inhabited soul, potential abilities, nature of being res'd unnaturally, etc - specifically all in one case. Rachel may have meant literal or figurative, but I suspect both. We know she's a liar, but we know enough about Baam and his mystery to see there's at least some truth to the usage of the word 'monster' in regards to him. He didn't really even deny it...
Not to diminish your opinions that you took the time to write out, but I feel we're at an impasse here. I stand firm on the *fact* that Baam's actions, internal dialogue, external discussions, everything show no hints at anything romantic or sexual - for anyone and up to and including Rachel. Rachel is clearly to me and others a mother figure to him. It's funny you think that Jinsung could be a father figure (who Baam is even more fervent to help/save than he was with Rachel before their falling out) but not see that applicable to Rachel for the mother figure.
As such, any change for Baam romantically would be completely out of his character. IF SIU writes it in - which we don't even know he will lest he risks pissing off whatever shippers didn't get their way - then it will only RETROACTIVELY be a part of his character. But this is all speculative as we don't even know if Baam will ever be the type to settle down one way or another, continue to be asexual, or become a harem-owner as he is already doing with males in a 'platonic' fashion.
Please give me pass on this issue, because I can answer, but it will go TOTALLY political, and this is not real world politics. For me, polygamy is a disgusting thing, and seeing Baam turning into that kind of twisted man... I don't want to, also do not have have any desire to begin with. I respect your view on polygamy, but I totally disagree with the base concept of it.
I think what is happening is you have, on a personal level, equated polygamy/harem with a 'bad' thing to do. I'm not here to change your mind - I have not even stated an opinion either way about it. Yours is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable position to take. So, you equate things 'bad' with the impossibility of Baam - 'good' - ever being able to sin for a better lack of a term. As a messiah figure he is sinless, or close to it, in your eyes.
I disagree on several levels. I think Baam has shown hints of being more than just a naive, sin-less person. I think he struggles with having a personality at all. Almost like a psychopath that knows they SHOULD care but lacks empathy, so they kind of fake it for appearances. Mind you, I'm not saying that is the case, but something along those lines. As opposed to pure sociopath like Zahard or White. Either way, he is flawed IMO, and I think we'll see more of his moral struggle crack as he gains power. Morality - particularly in a fantasy world - being subjective here. Are his actions 'moral' if to do so he knows death will result? Like a 'world police' sort of mess? Or a 'trolley problem' scenario - or a 'if you're going to make an omelette you have to crack a few eggs' sort of sense (all of which I have alluded to repeatedly on the forums). Let alone the hints at him actually being a monster literally or figuratively by Rachel. Let alone the literal DEMONS that reside within him.
So I don't see Baam as a moral character per se. He's a heroic protag, sure. But it doesn't end at that. More to the point though, maybe the writer doesn't share your concerns with the morality aspects of harem/polygamy. At least in his FANTASY scenario where we have seen other fantasy novels/manga where it is seen as simply 'naughty' or 'funny' or a character flaw of an otherwise 'good' MC (or even side character). As opposed to 'evil' or at least amoral.
So I feel you're reading into your personal feelings which you have publicly displayed here into a fantasy novel where things aren't as black and white and where the writer/SIU and even MC might not share your same concerns.
Not that it certainly will end up in a harem scenario. But just that the reasons against it aren't the same for SIU perhaps as you have.
Yeah, I'm more interested in THIS comment now and why you think it's 'conspiracy'. Nothing I mention is untrue.
- Baam is host to literal demons. He's then a demoniac. He has to play the one to control their desires and motivations. We don't know if he can keep them in check forever, or what their end game is. Baam is literally legion.
- Baam is res'd flesh. This was done by a SPELL. Necromancy, no matter the intentions of the user (let's say that Arlen had a pure heart), is almost always seen as BLACK MAGIC and therefor inherently evil. Further, it usually comes with strings attached which are not usually a good thing.
- Arlen was crazy, and a literal witch (generally assumed to be a bad thing, even so-called 'good' witches use witchcraft which the world religions have pretty much decided is evil no matter the intention). We don't know the methods she used to get her or Baam out, but everything surrounding it is questionable considering her methods previous and mental state overall.
- Who says an outside 'god' is 'good'? It could be an evil god with an axe to grind or a greater plan. 'Evil gods helping you' is a trope in fantasy. So is the idea of them manifesting later and/or wanting their proverbial pound of flesh, if not taking over the host outright.
- Baam has a growth rate and consumption technique that the tower seemingly has never seen in any irregular. It could be due to the admin inside him, the outside god's wishes, his amalgamation status, remnant spell action, or whatever. But Baam CONSUMES and has been linked to a literal black-hole. This implies destruction. He's been shown as an alpha predator, a shark. But comes across as 'just a sweet boy'/Pinocchio character. How are you not seeing this juxtaposition of existence?
- Rachel's words were pretty clear. Sure, she could have been simply trying to hurt Baam with an ad hominem. But her words were specific. Baam is truly monstrous if you think about him being carried around dead in a suspended state (hopefully not rotting too much...), demonic inhabited soul, potential abilities, nature of being res'd unnaturally, etc - specifically all in one case. Rachel may have meant literal or figurative, but I suspect both. We know she's a liar, but we know enough about Baam and his mystery to see there's at least some truth to the usage of the word 'monster' in regards to him. He didn't really even deny it...
Not to diminish your opinions that you took the time to write out, but I feel we're at an impasse here. I stand firm on the *fact* that Baam's actions, internal dialogue, external discussions, everything show no hints at anything romantic or sexual - for anyone and up to and including Rachel. Rachel is clearly to me and others a mother figure to him. It's funny you think that Jinsung could be a father figure (who Baam is even more fervent to help/save than he was with Rachel before their falling out) but not see that applicable to Rachel for the mother figure.
As such, any change for Baam romantically would be completely out of his character. IF SIU writes it in - which we don't even know he will lest he risks pissing off whatever shippers didn't get their way - then it will only RETROACTIVELY be a part of his character. But this is all speculative as we don't even know if Baam will ever be the type to settle down one way or another, continue to be asexual, or become a harem-owner as he is already doing with males in a 'platonic' fashion.
So, agree to disagree here.
I think what is happening is you have, on a personal level, equated polygamy/harem with a 'bad' thing to do. I'm not here to change your mind - I have not even stated an opinion either way about it. Yours is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable position to take. So, you equate things 'bad' with the impossibility of Baam - 'good' - ever being able to sin for a better lack of a term. As a messiah figure he is sinless, or close to it, in your eyes.
I disagree on several levels. I think Baam has shown hints of being more than just a naive, sin-less person. I think he struggles with having a personality at all. Almost like a psychopath that knows they SHOULD care but lacks empathy, so they kind of fake it for appearances. Mind you, I'm not saying that is the case, but something along those lines. As opposed to pure sociopath like Zahard or White. Either way, he is flawed IMO, and I think we'll see more of his moral struggle crack as he gains power. Morality - particularly in a fantasy world - being subjective here. Are his actions 'moral' if to do so he knows death will result? Like a 'world police' sort of mess? Or a 'trolley problem' scenario - or a 'if you're going to make an omelette you have to crack a few eggs' sort of sense (all of which I have alluded to repeatedly on the forums). Let alone the hints at him actually being a monster literally or figuratively by Rachel. Let alone the literal DEMONS that reside within him.
So I don't see Baam as a moral character per se. He's a heroic protag, sure. But it doesn't end at that. More to the point though, maybe the writer doesn't share your concerns with the morality aspects of harem/polygamy. At least in his FANTASY scenario where we have seen other fantasy novels/manga where it is seen as simply 'naughty' or 'funny' or a character flaw of an otherwise 'good' MC (or even side character). As opposed to 'evil' or at least amoral.
So I feel you're reading into your personal feelings which you have publicly displayed here into a fantasy novel where things aren't as black and white and where the writer/SIU and even MC might not share your same concerns.
Not that it certainly will end up in a harem scenario. But just that the reasons against it aren't the same for SIU perhaps as you have.
