Yes the soul thing is a bit annoying but the author has been pretty straightforward with it. I think it's a way to make the abilities more "flexible" because some aren't very versatile. It's an extension of the "Use your imagination" thing.
Undead and Unchange are pretty versatile but you can't say the same for Unjustice for example.
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Well played, Nico. That was a great arc, easily one of the best fights of this manga.
Yes the soul thing is a bit annoying but the author has been pretty straightforward with it. I think it's a way to make the abilities more "flexible" because some aren't very versatile. It's an extension of the "Use your imagination" thing.
Undead and Unchange are pretty versatile but you can't say the same for Unjustice for example.
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Well played, Nico. That was a great arc, easily one of the best fights of this manga.
Is it just me or is UxU breaking their own time travel causality this go round? Because we know that's it's not reverse time travel, so technically speaking Fuuko shouldn't fade out of existence by running into her mom and breaking the train of events that led to her conception. Because by looping, she's basically already BROKEN that chain of causality.
Is it just me or is UxU breaking their own time travel causality this go round? Because we know that's it's not reverse time travel, so technically speaking Fuuko shouldn't fade out of existence by running into her mom and breaking the train of events that led to her conception. Because by looping, she's basically already BROKEN that chain of causality.
So, looks like Tatiyana is up next. I guess Fuuko forgot about Unruin and doesn't even know about Unwell? which is probably going to be a big mistake. Because he was definitely dangerous when fusing with the UMAs. Speaking of, Fusion with UMAs has been done, but is not being delved into more deeply as a method of powering up. Look at how strong Nico was with Ghost and Unruin was with Blood and Shadow? Weird that the author isn't mention that more. And I mean, they use Move all the time, and Fuuko outright trusts Apocalypse. It's not like the UMAs can't be used as allies, which does mean perhaps Soul can be reasoned with. (I am of the opinion now that Soul IS Sol... and Luna doesn't know it yet, or that's why she's just plain refusing to reveal her true agenda.)
I think we're bound to get a surprise tragic twist soon. things went too smoothly with Unchaste. I for one would have made it so interacting with her parents locked Unluck out until both were dead... because that was the activation condition. Or at least causing the accident with the plane and using Unchange to just ensure they live. That would driven up tension and throw a curve ball. The predictability is now getting a bit much.
So yeah, Tatiyana won't be as easy as the others, I suspect. All the intro arcs were awesome, but now's the time to throw a curve. I suspect she will be an enemy, and always did given the promise she made at the end of last loop. It will take fixing or solving whatever problem Soul provides to help. That, or they get her to join effortlessly, and the activation of Remember proves a BIG problem. Because so far I see no real reason to even bother using it... maybe they need Nico's level of soul mastery to avoid brain injury from all the memories rushing in. Maybe not. I don't know. It just seems like that time in most manga where the big plot twist occurs. I would actually like the idea of Remember being a BIG mistake. Rather than have the twist being an especially difficult Untouchable. Could it maybe be Unjust awakening at an awefully inconvenient time? Even with her mastery of it, Juiz wore the helmet because she knew how easily it could just screw everybody over. . . And we assume Juiz didn't actually give Unjust to somebody else. Speaking of...
What would really please me? Have a couple of the Negators be different people. I REALLY wanted Fuuko's mom to be Unchaste. That would have been a nice twist. But alas, no, or at least not yet. I was already salty that Untruth stayed with its original user and not the girl. Can't remember their names. Never my favorite characters or power.
(Also, she has crazy good luck. And Luck is a master rule. What gives? No panel of Luck's opinion from the master rule's round table? It's underwhelming that only Change and Soul are getting real panel time and development as a result. All the Master Rules look memorable and have remarkably effective and charismatic personalities so far. A lot like the Big Three manga did. Bleach had issues, as did Naruto, but the antagonist characters really sold those series. HxH also has incredibly well made villains in the Phantom Troupe. The Master Rules could be the same, but we're not getting enough time with them before they are neutralized. I hope we see Language again in her core form helping Nico. That would be nice.)
There definitely needs to be at least one Negator who transfers their power via the soul. Either someone dies this loop, and must transfer to a suitable candidate or already did it from last loop. Tatiyana is one of the last 3 known negators where this could happen. But we're likely in for a more psychological setup with her, or at least one where she's antagonistic.
Isn't there also the master pen thing that can create amazing artifacts? It curses the user with Unknown, but can Fuuko still use it? I thought she could? But there's no mention of such an uber tier item being used for a long while now, so if it's use limit is reached already, what on Earth did she use it to draw? I feel like that's a big dangling plot point.
This is where the flaws of Undead + Unluck show for me. The pieces are there for greatness, but the author just isn't or doesn't know how to use it. There could be scenes of Fuuko looking all dark and grim staring at the pen that holds Unknown, and that's it. Just to remind us readers it is there and the author hasn't forgotten it, nor Fuuko. That helps misdirect us in a good way so the simple plot isn't so easily predicted or determined. One Piece did this very well, and still does, in fact, where so many threads move that even the straightforward story does not feel so, and instead feels organic and lively. We'll just have to wait and see then how this plays out with Untouchable...
Unruin again OPing the entire Union. I'm not really sure what to think here, with command of his soul he's on par with Andy and has a wider ability set.
The fact that the biggest possible stroke of unluck would summon Andy to him is amusing.
The very interesting superpower logic and matchups keep me reeled in despite the fact that the author uses the fighting quite properly as a vehicle to propel the plot forward, and not as the plot itself.
What THE CRAP?! Did the author get bored and skip all the next stuff, or did the editor or publisher get bored and force the climax? The pacing change here is sudden enough to give the reader whiplash.
I think it is being canceled. Luna's behavior pretty much confirms it. She was obviously playing the long con with Sun. but that was not enough. The author got things revved up with Sick. But then instead of changing pace, he recycled everything with a perfect ending. That is not good. If you're gonna make things "perfect" for people, better to do it differently than what we already saw.
It was too predictable and fanfiction bad. Nico was the opposite, since his character arc was very unique and he hadn't been shown prior to Unforgettable. and he was basically the mid boss fight.
Then things just went downhill slowly. Most of the Union members, like Phil, were basically filler. It had no continuity throughout, there were great moments for some characters, mainly Gina and Sean. but that was it. The big twist needed to happen with Fuuko's mom. She needed to be Unchaste, or be possessed / merged with Luck, since Luck has obviously blessed her. Or a tragedy, like maybe Unluck getting taken away after Fuuko encounters her parents, since the Trigger for Unluck is their DEATHS!
None of that happened. Then Tatiyana got a perfect Awakening where her powers realistically should have been dealt with very, very carefully to avoid deaths that magically don't happen.
Overall, it just failed. The last loop couldn't have been worse formulated. There was no tension, because we all know the main characters win in the end. What should have happened is this be the next to last loop. And Fuuko not be an idiot shounen character who focused on everyone getting a happy ending rather than fighting for a happy future. It just felt bored.
I think it is being canceled. Luna's behavior pretty much confirms it. She was obviously playing the long con with Sun. but that was not enough. The author got things revved up with Sick. But then instead of changing pace, he recycled everything with a perfect ending. That is not good. If you're gonna make things "perfect" for people, better to do it differently than what we already saw.
It was too predictable and fanfiction bad. Nico was the opposite, since his character arc was very unique and he hadn't been shown prior to Unforgettable. and he was basically the mid boss fight.
Then things just went downhill slowly. Most of the Union members, like Phil, were basically filler. It had no continuity throughout, there were great moments for some characters, mainly Gina and Sean. but that was it. The big twist needed to happen with Fuuko's mom. She needed to be Unchaste, or be possessed / merged with Luck, since Luck has obviously blessed her. Or a tragedy, like maybe Unluck getting taken away after Fuuko encounters her parents, since the Trigger for Unluck is their DEATHS!
None of that happened. Then Tatiyana got a perfect Awakening where her powers realistically should have been dealt with very, very carefully to avoid deaths that magically don't happen.
Overall, it just failed. The last loop couldn't have been worse formulated. There was no tension, because we all know the main characters win in the end. What should have happened is this be the next to last loop. And Fuuko not be an idiot shounen character who focused on everyone getting a happy ending rather than fighting for a happy future. It just felt bored.
I think it is being canceled. Luna's behavior pretty much confirms it. She was obviously playing the long con with Sun. but that was not enough. The author got things revved up with Sick. But then instead of changing pace, he recycled everything with a perfect ending. That is not good. If you're gonna make things "perfect" for people, better to do it differently than what we already saw.
It was too predictable and fanfiction bad. Nico was the opposite, since his character arc was very unique and he hadn't been shown prior to Unforgettable. and he was basically the mid boss fight.
Then things just went downhill slowly. Most of the Union members, like Phil, were basically filler. It had no continuity throughout, there were great moments for some characters, mainly Gina and Sean. but that was it. The big twist needed to happen with Fuuko's mom. She needed to be Unchaste, or be possessed / merged with Luck, since Luck has obviously blessed her. Or a tragedy, like maybe Unluck getting taken away after Fuuko encounters her parents, since the Trigger for Unluck is their DEATHS!
None of that happened. Then Tatiyana got a perfect Awakening where her powers realistically should have been dealt with very, very carefully to avoid deaths that magically don't happen.
Overall, it just failed. The last loop couldn't have been worse formulated. There was no tension, because we all know the main characters win in the end. What should have happened is this be the next to last loop. And Fuuko not be an idiot shounen character who focused on everyone getting a happy ending rather than fighting for a happy future. It just felt bored.
…I’m sorry, but pretty much everything you wrote would have led to a much quicker cancellation for the series. I’m not going to say that this loop has been fantastic, but everything I’m reading here is so baffling that I truly can’t believe what I’m reading.
clearly, this thread is not filled with activity for a reason. You know why? Predictability. Everything went perfectly. there was no evolution of the power system, beyond Soul, and that didn't go very far before we moved on the formula of going through each Union member. A lot of those who posted often enough in this thread in the beginning stopped. There was nothing significant to discuss. There was no tension. Now the climax has come and frankly, it's no surprise, either.
You say what I suggested would get it canceled sooner? Really? Which parts? What I wanted in my posts were real plot twists, real stakes, real consequences and surprises, some grim ones especially, to help balance out the endless upward trend. There needed to be tragedy for the characters in order to feel triumph. If what I was suggesting was so unpopular, stories like Naruto would have been canceled the instant Sasuke betrayed Konoha, HxH when Kite was killed and eaten, and pretty much all of One Piece the instant the story hit the Arabastia saga and a war erupted nobody could stop. It'd have ended for sure with Ace dying. Many, many shounen manga use major hurdles to increase drama, even if that drama turns out to be somewhat cheep, with characters surviving injuries or instances where they really shouldn't have. It is merely an example of a way to increase the sense of urgency, unpredictability, and uncertainty for the plot.
Other than death/tragedy, there are more intricate ways of increasing plot tension and unpredictability, and yet those weren't sought out. Many authors aren't competent and know it, to pull off such varied nuances of plot. And this and always was a battle manga. That means typical fighting elements are more reasonable to expect. And they need to be done right.
Instead, we got a perfect ending route where plot intensity steadily declined until ALL momentum for the story was basically shot. There were literally innumerably better ways to start this final loop, for instance, like showing Fuuko's development through the 1800s, all of which got skipped.
Another series that did this recently was called EDEN'S ZERO, by Hiro Mashima. It reset everything at the final arc, unduing all the suffering and development and work that went into the entire series prior. It was a travesty and it ended with a bitter taste in the mouths of many. U+U did the exact same thing, only worse, it has the setup to do better.
What would you have done? Clearly, I am one of the only ones posting from among the original posters and readers on here, for good reason. Nobody else is bothering and either stopped reading or caring to bother with it. They are not posting because there is precious little to have said for months. The outcomes were foregone. Even the little twists like the polygamous marriage was seen a mile off.
And yet I am told my post was incomprehensible? This is why I don't post often anymore. I'm too old for these children's stories.
Love how much of a trump card unjustice is. Also love the fact that these superior rules all got off-paneled.
The whole "glitches in the rules have emerged" thing is making me think of The Matrix with how Neo/"The One" is basically a glitch in a system built by those who don't understand free will trying to control for it. The implication here is that God's "rules" are phenomena not fully understood by God itself because otherwise "glitches" wouldn't occur.
Love how much of a trump card unjustice is. Also love the fact that these superior rules all got off-paneled.
The whole "glitches in the rules have emerged" thing is making me think of The Matrix with how Neo/"The One" is basically a glitch in a system built by those who don't understand free will trying to control for it. The implication here is that God's "rules" are phenomena not fully understood by God itself because otherwise "glitches" wouldn't occur.
I honestly thought for a second that Unjustice being this much of a trump card is a bit of a retcon - why need a Union at all if she can just negate the will of any UMA she sees - but then it occurred to me that she NEEDS the other Union members since Sol & Luna can't be trumped by negating their will alone.
It does bother me though that we didn't see her ability do anything whatsoever to Sol during the previous Ragnarok.
These two parts of your post sum up my thoughts. It's disappointing that the superior rules that we were fearing so much got beaten so fast ??!! Like ? It hasn't even been 10 chapters. This is so anti climactic I don't understand the sudden rush.
Hopefully the fight against Sun is gonna be much more satisfying.
Also yeah we knew Unjustice was broken but never to that extent. So I liked the chapter and found Juiz very badass bit it still felt a bit Deus Ex-machina to me.
VERY HAPPY TO HAVE VICTOR BACK THO !
Ahahaha and now we've got BOTH Victor and Andy thanks to Unrepair + Unhappy exploiting their glitches. I'm looking forward to the climax essentially being a negotiation with God to try to understand their motivations - there's enough world logic breaking "glitches" that even Sol will be unable to keep up. We can already see his smaller blasts getting swatted away.
God's whole motivation with the creation of life definitely seems to be a question here. He made physical beings, gave them souls to make them "alive" , but nothing happened. Then he created more rules to basically prompt life to evolve and grow. At some point he realized that his creation was flawed and contradictions to those rules were manifesting - which he basically...concentrated? bound up? into the Negators. After this point God's creation became essentially a battle for supremacy between the physical and spiritual aspects of God, and he wasn't satisfied .
The fact that Soul needed to be born in the first place was the first hint that something was wrong - because Sol is a physical God and Luna is spiritual, but Soul as a rule is a spiritual one. I'm GUESSING that Sol & Luna have a rivalry and basically neither want to admit they're incomplete without the other.
MY THEORY:
I'm guessing that life was created in the first place because in the Beginning there was God. And God was complete but alone, static, unchanging. And He didn't like that so He split His essence into two, but made those two different so that they would need to learn to understand each other and thus become "not alone" anymore. Except...they couldn't understand each other, so they conflicted. AND they couldn't overcome each other to prove who was superior.
So they, essentially, made a bet. In their petty rivalry, they decided to be act like Gods and make some creation. And Creation would be their proxy war. If the life they created with their quality, and imbued with some portion of BOTH physicality and spirituality, could overcome even THEM, that would be proof that Sol & Luna are actually incomplete without the other and instead of conflict, should merge or at least go back to trying to understand each other.
Except "All creation" didn't go according to plan. In the billions of years it took for Humanity to come about, SO MANY RULES were born in order to foster the conditions in which which intelligent life could thrive. Then humanity came about and the real game began.
I may be getting this wrong here - I think some exposition said the first rules were the master ones - which means that the other ones (seasons, insects, decay, etc) were born later - but this may end up being a contradictory retcon on the author's part? Either way it doesn't matter - the 12 master rules exist for HUMANITY, and the rest of creation (Earth, universe, other life, etc etc) was the stage on which HUMANITY was meant to perform.
These fledgling, incomplete creators created human life (Sol) & imbued them with spiritual essence (Luna - via the Soul rule). And Life didn't do anything. So, not willing to give up on the experiment, Sol & Luna created additional rules - the 12 master ones. By the way, I LOVE the explanation of why they were needed and in what order they were born - that was the most brilliant bit of exposition this story has had!
Except WHOOPS all of these Rules were somewhat contradictory. Sol & Luna being fundamentally incomplete, couldn't work together properly to create a balance within their creation. And the contradictions gave birth to "glitches" which threatened to essentially break the whole game.
So, Sol & Luna figured out how to compensate for these Glitches - by focusing all of the contradiction of each Rule into a "Vessel" whose existence contradicted that rule. Again, yin/yang parallels here. The glitches can't exist without the Rule that birthed it, but the Rule can't exist without birthing the contradictory glitch.
Ok, So now the full stage is set. You've got Rules, which are basically analogous to Angels of many pop cultural takes of Christian Theology - immortal, encompassing an aspect of their creator, recognizably similar to Humanity in some way, created TO HELP HUMANITY ACHIEVE ITS POTENTIAL, BUT seriously pissed off because the Rules themselves are, at the outset, superior to Humanity in every way, and much closer to the Gods that humanity was supposed to live up to their potential and approach. - but those rules are also static, unchanging, not able to grow and become more.
So the rules and UMAs kept absolutely annihilating humanity. Over and over again. 99 times. Sol & Luna have a near-infinite amount of patience being Gods, but even they don't want to do this forever, so they made the loops limited. The quests and reward item like the Roundtable, the three spiritual treasures, etc - those were Luna's creation, basically trying to help even the odds and give Humanity a fighting chance.
The end result of all this? Probably going to be that Sol & Luna end up forced to work together but still somehow lose...or fight the Union to a draw. The whole point of all of this, from the beginning, being a pissing match between the absolute spiritual and absolute physical.
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I am not surprised at all with the new chapter's revelation. The last beat of Fuuko's heart, which only Andy could possibly touch, being the trump card of humanity is rather poignant. Undead+Unjustice was the combination that enabled humanity to overcome the Rules & face God, and Undead+Unluck is the combination that enable humanity to overcome God himself.
Fuuko sacrifices her entire life. Andy sacrifices the (second) love of his life and his one chance to die. Humanity proves that not only do they have the potential to overcome the Almighty, they can do it in a completely selfless way with nothing in it for themselves.
//already predicting that Fuuko's sacrifice is going to not be permanent - either with the Union's abilities or via Sol/Luna & The Rules.
I don't think overcoming Sol is going to be the end. Sol & Luna are STILL playing their sick & twisted game, and all of this is STILL in Luna's desired outcome. Humanity needs to break free from God somehow. Overcoming Sol momentarily isn't a solution, and they haven't even considered how to overcome Luna.
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Update for December 15's chapter:
It's a pity that I'm the only one following Undead Unluck this closely. Would've loved to have more in-depth chats about the philosophy of all of the themes here. I haven't been this satisfied with a shonen manga's overall story arc in a long, long time. I'm already starting to get melancholy about the very imminent conclusion of this story.
So Sol & Luna aren't two sides of the same God, who out of boredom and loneliness split themselves into two opposite halves. I was a bit disappointed there but the origin story of Luna & Sol offers the same emotional/philosophical direction as my aforementioned theory. They're immature Gods who were cast out. Earth and humanity are THEIR object lesson and opportunity for maturation. I'm guessing that their "exile" is a closely monitored remedial training lesson, an opportunity for the two of them to grow in a way that they become worthy of rejoining their collective of other Gods and are invited to rejoin their kind.
EXCEPT: Luna picked up on the lesson, and Sol didn't. This game, this wager - 101 repetitions of 4.6 billion years - is Luna and Sol trying to figure out the true meaning of being Creators. Is the existential meaning of God one who creates rules, structures, and worshippers, in a sort of zero-sum outcome? Or is being a Creator more about giving birth to something greater than yourself?
Prediction for next time: Andy's blast ends up *badly* injuring Sol, and the glitch of Fuuko still being alive allows her to power one final shot at Sol using all the love and feelings she's built up for Andy and all the other negators. However, she chooses not to do so, hoping that Sol & Luna admit that humanity has indeed "reached God" and doesn't need to worship them.
Fuuko doesn't want to kill Soul, *can't* kill Soul - if you extinguish any of the master rules the whole goddamned world changes in a massive way - and the loss of souls basically is the loss of humanity's potential.
THERE'S A LOGICAL INCONSISTENCY HERE! Luna made the "ultimate" artifact, Heart, to be powered by love. If love is a "rule" born of humanity that can possibly overcome God, then either A: Luna KNEW about love and thus the concept isn't a "human rule", or B: saw love's...potential power? grow over time during some of the earlier loops and made "Heart" to harness that potential. I'm guessing the latter explanation isn't inconsistent or a retcon. It DOES mean that Luna has been aware of "human rules" of which love is one of them for some time now, so it's not that love is a new idea to Luna and Sol but love having any real power behind it is surprising to them.
I feel this part of my musings on this latest chapter doesn't need spoilers but if anyone objects feel free to let me know.
This entire title is a poignant exploration of what it means to be a parent. You give birth to something new. That something new is immature, undeveloped, and you nurture it. You introduce your child, as they become ready, to the rules of the world:
Death - the impermanence of life. Your child's own mortality and yours. Usually starts with pets and elderly relatives
Change - children change and grow constantly and at hyper-speed, and as much consistency as they need in their world to start, they need to learn to adapt and seek out positive change
Luck - the idea that their outcomes are not purely deterministic - there will be good, and bad, uncontrollable fortune in their lives, and to roll with that
Justice - accountability, consequences, personal responsibility, etc
War - basically a metaphor for violent conflict writ large
Time - scheduling, personal autonomy, planning ahead, anticipation of the future, understanding that life is finite, etc
Language - personal relationships, how to think, how to understand others
Other life (beast) - we live in nature and our relationship with that natural world
Sickness - i mean kids spend half their life sick before age 5 on average. hygiene, caution and care with risk taking behavior, etc.
Soul - outside of the staunch atheists, most people believe in something like a soul, whether it be immortal and immutable or otherwise. Spirituality is a thread woven throughout that supports and nurtures our experience of what is a largely physical reality.
And of course all of the other worldly phenomena like seasons, hot/cold, insects, etc etc.
When you have children, you give them rules and limits and exist as a semi-omniscient and omnipotent God in their world. But your children DO outgrow you, and you need to adapt to your changing role in their lives, because they will outgrow your rules, or choose to rebel and negate your rules in order to assert their own independence and agency. And if you do your job properly as a parent, your children will grow up resilient, capable, thoughtful, caring, and will SURPASS you.
Your children are the only thing you can create which can surpass you. And they do it because they surpass your rules and stop worshipping you, because your rules are YOUR limits, not theirs.
Anyway, there's my two cents. Undead/Unluck is an epic treatise on parenting.
You know what? I am loving the conclusion of this arc so much that I think I'm going to buy the entire manga once a large format box set happens.
I should apologize. The truth is, I have been reading your posts and I do enjoy your thoughts and theorycrafting! Strangely enough I've never been too good at interacting with this sort of thing, even though I should. Makes more sense to post in here than in the usual WSJ topic. I'll try to do better--with the few chapters that we have remaining, anyway...
But I just want to say that I absolute love that observation about how this could easily be about parenting. There's been a lot of times throughout the series when I wondered if Undead Unluck was some sort of meditation on creativity and how your creations evolve out of your control (not to mention the video game references littered throughout the series), but with us finally learning about Sol and Luna's origins, I think you may be onto something.
I should apologize. The truth is, I have been reading your posts and I do enjoy your thoughts and theorycrafting! Strangely enough I've never been too good at interacting with this sort of thing, even though I should. Makes more sense to post in here than in the usual WSJ topic. I'll try to do better--with the few chapters that we have remaining, anyway...
But I just want to say that I absolute love that observation about how this could easily be about parenting. There's been a lot of times throughout the series when I wondered if Undead Unluck was some sort of meditation on creativity and how your creations evolve out of your control (not to mention the video game references littered throughout the series), but with us finally learning about Sol and Luna's origins, I think you may be onto something.
Thanks! What's funny is, this whole emphasis on the power of love is reminding me slightly of the tired old shonen "power of friendship" trope. I will give UxU a pass on this one though, as it's been a "concepts have power" story this entire time.
Reading today's, I like the new interpretation of death - it's about being forgotten. Pretty similar to the Coco movie. Andy's death comes when Fuuko forgets him.
