Discussion Underrated and Overrated

[Phantron]

Like Ken mentioned if BJK is not a one hit kill move then that means Momoshiro pretty much came back from behind by himself (we sure didn't see his partner doing anything at all in that match) against 2 1st stringers. If it's a one hit kill move then he still wins. The only way Chitose can possibly win against Momoshiro is if:

1. BJK is a one hit win move (if not, that means Momoshiro is incredibly strong baseline by himself).
2. Saiki can accurately predict when he'll use it (Chitose has been completely wrong with his prediction of Saiki before).
3. He is capable of dodging a BJK (the shot could very well be too fast for him to get out of the way).
4. He is allowed to dodge a BJK (dodging power moves is very unmanly in POT and probably punishable by death).

 

[ybr99]

Chitose is one of my least favorite characters so not fanboy. its just that he is straight up better.
He predicted a 43 hit rally with tezuka i think he can predict the BJK.
Saiki was stopped by tezukas saiki so it hasn't been wrong. (The bbq he would have been right if he didn't say anything.)
He hit a tightrope walk momo can't hit a BJK and maybe can't return it if it rolls off the net.
Kamikushi took multiple games of tachibana who is more experienced and better than momo without BJK and maybe even with it.

 

[-Ken-]

And he also showed that his prediction is not absolute. Since Momoshiro feats currently are better than both him and Tachibana, I say there's a high chance Momoshiro can surpass Chitose prediction.

 

[Kaoz]

3. All those are assuming Chitose carry more than 1 racquet? And I don't think it's mention anywhere that Chitose actually do so as well. Chitose might forfeit because he have no spare racquet as well. I just don't see things going in Chitose favor in any of these three ways.

Regular tennis bags let you carry up to six rackets and most people in SPoT do have spares (see Momoshiro and Kenya actually taking out extras after their strings broke). Furthermore, if we go along with Sai's theory (the one Hardy cited) then none of Chitose's rackets are going to get broken in the first place because he himself doesn't have any special moves that do that.

Furthermore, Taira/Hara are probably not significantly stronger than Washio/Suzuki, if at all. Yes, they are a couple courts apart, but in reality there's only a one point difference in base stats and Washio/Suzuki can Synchro whereas Taira/Hara cannot. Can they return Bakyuun? Maybe not. But since it's doubles that's not an auto loss.

 

[-Ken-]

Well, it's still a come back from behind victory vs barely a win. I don't know what else to add. For Chitose to have a chance against Momoshiro, 3rd court doubles 1 would have to be much stronger than however the 1st stringer pair are ahead of Momoshiro by the time he come back.

For example, if Hara/Taira are beating Momoshiro and Kenya 4-0, and Momoshiro/Kenya manage to win that, whether it's by 6-4 or 7-5, 3rd court pair have to able to beat Tara/Hara 6-0 or 6-1 accordingly (Because Chitose just shows he's around the same level as them). And somehow I don't think the 3rd court pair are that much stronger than the 1st stringer pair, if they even are stronger at all. I think at best 3rd court might able to do a 7-6 or 6-7 match if they are lucky. And even then, a come back from behind victory IS a more impressive feat.

And despite the higher base stats, their ranking is still there, and the manga itself support it by stating that each court from then on is much higher in level. As we knows that base stats isn't everything, I'm much leaning to believe that the 1st stringer pair are stronger pair than 3rd court doubles 1 pair, because that's the canon ranking given to us. There's always invisible factors regarding how well people work together in doubles. Which I actually think work against WoK since they seem to be more close to each other compare to Momoshiro and Kenya.

Sai theory is cool and all, but when it comes to just facts and theory trying to stretch the fact, I go with simply facts every time. It certainly serve me extremely well in the past (such as Fuwa mirror eyes and Marui NOT being #8, oh god I was sick of people back then).

So yeah, I'm leaning on Momoshiro having a higher chance of beating Chitose for sure.

 

[Kaoz]

The manga also states that the 2nd Stringers improved more than the 1st Stringers. I.e. 1st and 2nd court can both be stronger than 3rd court, but 3rd court can still be equal to the bottom of the 1st string. And the point is that a "comeback" that consists of a single shot doesn't mean much - we're not saying Kawamura is better than Gin based on him winning their direct match after all.

In the end you might be right. Or you might not be. It comes down to whose interpretation of the events is correct. And like I said before, unless something new is discovered, it's unlikely that either of us is going to change their mind on this issue.

 

[-Ken-]

What page does it say 2nd stringer improve more than 1sts tringer again? All i remember is akiba saying about experience aboard mAke one more powerful, which actually should mean 1st stringer are stronger.

And i still dont see how your way of interpretation can make chitose win? With my interpretation, momoshiro definitely will win. With ur that make the level of 3rd court unsure, the best is that it means chitose may have a chance of beating momoshiro? It doesn't seem to a certain victory even then.

 

[Kaoz]

What page does it say 2nd stringer improve more than 1sts tringer again? All i remember is akiba saying about experience aboard mAke one more powerful, which actually should mean 1st stringer are stronger.

Translation error. It says the exact opposite in reality.

Kaoz: (Link: http://i.imgur.com/cwTRi06.jpg)http://i.imgur.com/cwTRi06.jpg
Sai: Its a mistranslation in the second d bubble
Sai: I made a mistake
Sai: Basically it says that they'd better be careful since the 2nd stringers have been going through the super scientific training
Sai: So if they're not careful, they'll get overtaken

I've never claimed that Chitose definitely wins with my interpretation, but it negates the points you're using to justify your conclusion. In my interpretation we're simply looking at a (3/4/3/3/3) guy with Black Jack Knife vs a (3/4/4/4/5) guy with Saiki and Kamikakushi which I personally believe to be in the latter's favour.

 

[-Ken-]

Well, yeah. I definitely disagree with that. It also doesn't negate my point. Like I say earlier, court 3 doubles 1 need to be significantly stronger, not comparable, to 1st stringer for that to matter. After all, Momoshiro do a come back from behind victory. If the match go on, momoshiro seem like a stronger character since he can beat 2 1st stringer. If it end in one point, then momoshiro win. I don't understand ur point really?

I guess just trust konomi ranking rather than questioning it.
Btw, i dont think that page seem to say that it is more effective. It just mean 1st stringer can't slack off with their training. (See how assumption can go?). As oppose to going to end match result and use it, it's jumping through hoops and that imo makes the argument weaker.There's also akiba line during his match with irie and byoudonin line during his match with tokugawa, unless those are also mistranslation.

 

[Kaoz]

The "comeback victory" point is negated if Taira and Hara each only carried one racket and it took literally one BJK, a move they didn't know Momoshiro had, to force them to forfeit because they had no way to play anymore. This means Momoshiro won one point, not six games. It doesn't mean that Taira/Hara would've lost had the match continued normally.

Konomi gives us sufficient reason to doubt the ranking. He says that the 2nd stringers may have improved more than the 1st stringers. From the fanbook we know that they are close in terms of stats (and taking Synchro into account, Washio/Suzuki's stats are likely better). Nakagauchi actually managed to replace Ban, so obviously there's precedent that it's possible the ranking doesn't reflect their abilities accurately anymore. You can't just use results and ignore context (again, see Kawamura vs Gin for the obvious example).

Akiba is full of himself and subsequently got destroyed. In Byoudouin's case, I take it to mean the accumulated experience he's gained over the years that Tokugawa is lacking, that's irrelevant in our case though.

 

[-Ken-]

I know it say they carry racquet with them, but does that mean the have only 1 raquet? And even if kenya and momoshiro carry more than 1 racquet, does it really show or say anywhere chitose carry more than one?

Also, it could be just me, but the left panel on this page hardly make sense if the match end right there.
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/374405/8.jpg

Also, the significant change in sweat AND injury here would HIGHLY suggest that the match doesn't end right there.
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/374409/10.jpg

Actually, with these pages (especially the 2nd one), I'm pretty sure the match doesn't end there. If they do carry one racquet like you say, they have a hell of skills with it since they can continue playing with it having holes in it.

The facts we know is that
1. momoshiro beat 1st stringer and
2.chitose may barely win against 3rd court.

And that's where i draw my facts from. Adding any assumption to it make it, well, assumption rather than fact.

The line about 2nd stringer improving more than 1st is only true if the 1st stringer "aren't careful". There is nothing to suggest the 1st stringer isn't as training as hard at all. If you look at pure base stats, tanegashima only got slightly higher than duke even when he stay behind and got those efficient training or watever it is. Are you saying that tanegashima got lower base than duke before? It's certainly possible, but if anything I think both oversea and camp give boost to players.

Akiba got destroy by Irie, whom true depths still remain unseen. It doesn't mean much, at all. You estimate in the other thread that Irie is around tanegashima so does it really mean much?

And just because nakaguachi is one player that got select and he also happen to be oni rival. Not to mention potential have to do with it according to the way he choose ms (which is mention in the story). So the line-up for world cup doesn't mean that the current ability are better. Was it the same before when 1st stringer were select? Maybe yes maybe not, but since criteria is mention for the world cup it should be the same for hs. You yourself don't put Gin as the #14 strongest MS, so I don't think it's right to use HS selection as basis for this.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

well, you people seem to have gone waaaaay of topic
Overrated characters for me is pretty much just ryoma annd tezuka. maybe now i guess tezuka isnt overated as he's kinda OP now, but obviously the main character belongs here. I dont think fuuji is overrated, he always adapts to every situation he is in (usually to the confines of his strength without going all aura drive and shit) Not to mention that he is a genius in doubles.

The problem with chitose is that Saiki only works if scoring a point is possible with his own limits, as saiki does not allow him to surpass them
Chitose WILL NOT return a BJK, under any circumstance, also, momoshiro can sense nature (the wind) like fuuji does so saiki is NEVER 100% accurate against momoshiro, and i doubt chitose has anywhere near enough stamina to keep up with kaidoh's rival, but maybe the stats say otherwise....havent checked.

Underrated chars are momo/kaidoh as singles and doubles
kaidoh has ALOT of stamina, and his moveset is one of the more diverse in the series
boomerang, reverse snake, gyro laser (making yagyu somewhat redundant at this point, another guy took your special move and made it better than yours -_-),jack knife, dunk smash , tornado snake. Now for those of you unimpressed with these moves, just take into mind the stamina it takes to face moves like these in unpredictable (even from the stance) succession running left and right to return powerful shots and then having a drawn out match with KAIDOH.
the momo kaidoh pair is monstrous, simply because both players can use each other's moves , momoshiro has fuuji's wind/net play (except not as good) combined with BJK's power, and kaidoh's moves are mostly done with the same stance, The situation is that no matter who the ball goes to, if your prepared for one special, youll get caught off guard by another , and even if you can catch up and deal with the power, running around then using 120% of your arm strength will tire most MS really fast, and if you start breathing heavy before them, its over

 

[ybr99]

Are we forgetting kenya. You might think he did nothing but he can literally run on water he is so fast. Kenya comes back looking just as sweaty as momo so he obviously did something. Kenya is underrated. Also you keep talking about doubles. Momo is 10x stronger in doubles than he is in singles, chitose on the other hand is much better at singles. At doubles momo would win but singles, chitose dominates. Momo can't use BJK every play. If chitose doesn't hit a shot to momo's backhand than his BJK is useless. Even limited to half a court chitose can outlast him with better stats and saiki to tip the scale in his favor.

 

[Phantron]

Originally Fuji was just a 'genius' which is a label that's basically worthless. He is quite appropriately rated as the #1 No. 2 guy on the team. At some point he started playing the other #1s vicariously (because he never actually play those guys, most likely because he'd lose badly) and then becomes overrated with the whole "I imagined I beat Tezuka" deal. I guess part of the problem is that even after POT is over, Ryoma's sort of stuck as a permanent member of Seigaku even when they're no longer playing along school lines. Since Ryoma is the de facto #1 that bumps Fuji down to #3 so his deeds become even more exaggerated to account for the fact that two guys on his own team are significantly better than him. I'd say the problem here is Ryoma since being second fiddle to Tezuka isn't that bad. I don't think Tezuka is overrated unless you're talking about how he used to be considered slightly weaker than Sanada (in the first match against Rikkidai it's said they have to treat Rikkidai as if they have 7 Tezukas, and that'd be a total blowout if they're anywhere near that level based on later info) to second only to Yukimura. I'm not sure why the #2 MS player needs to constantly resort to self inflicted damage to beat lesser players but at least he eventually picked up TnK to balance it out.

 

[ybr99]

Rikkai did have 7 tezuka level players it was just the tezuka with the injured elbow, which is considerably weaker. And it would not have been a blowout. Inui was able to take 4 games off that level tezuka and with a little BS he can win. Fuji "surpassed" tezuka. Ryoma can't lose so them winning is not that far fetched.

 

[-Ken-]

Are we forgetting kenya. You might think he did nothing but he can literally run on water he is so fast. Kenya comes back looking just as sweaty as momo so he obviously did something. Kenya is underrated. Also you keep talking about doubles. Momo is 10x stronger in doubles than he is in singles, chitose on the other hand is much better at singles. At doubles momo would win but singles, chitose dominates. Momo can't use BJK every play. If chitose doesn't hit a shot to momo's backhand than his BJK is useless. Even limited to half a court chitose can outlast him with better stats and saiki to tip the scale in his favor.

Of course Kenya also do something. But does it matter? Since Momoshiro/Kenya beat 1st stringer pair, as can be seen on these pages, they are stronger than a pair who is around 3rd court level.

And Chitose doesn't stand a chance against top players in singles anyways. There's 0% chance of him playing in singles on international level. Momoshiro is a much better asset in that regards.

The topic is whether or not which characters is underrated or overrated. It doesn't matter how strong the character is.

Momoshiro is 1st stringer level in doubles

Chitose is 3rd court level in doubles

To view any of those characters higher or lower is overrating and underrating the character.

On singles, we only knows that Chitose would get 6-0 by National Tezuka.

Of course, we don't know Momoshiro latest singles level. And what we are doing are simply assumption. You assume that he won't be on level to beat Chitose. I assume that he can. Assumption = Assumption so we can't draw any conclusion in this regards. We only knows that Momoshiro>Chitose in doubles and that was it.

Is Chitose actually capable of preventing move? That's something hardly not confirm. Abara Dame required a much more positioning and telegraph than Jack Knife, and Tachibana still pull it off. He also fail at prediction a few times. And since Momoshiro shows himself to beat a pair that is potentially stronger than Chitose right now, I don't see a real reason of assuming that Momoshiro wouldn't surpass Chitose prediction as well.

 

[ChinkyCandie]

Momo overestimates himself. He gets arrogant then gets his ass kicked. He's overrated.
Chitose doesn't do that. He doesn't overestimate himself. He uses Saiki to predict how many hits it will take to win a point. Popularity wise, Chitose is so much more underrated.
If Chitose can use HnK, he'll be able to defeat Momo.

Neither of them are strong enough to play at world level.

Also, all of Seigaku are overrated. They haven't done much in NPoT, they are full of themselves, and lack character development.

 

[-Ken-]

As far as I know, the last time their match happen, Momoshiro overestimate himself so much he beat a 1st stringer. Wheeeeeeeeeeeee. If anyone view him to be higher than 15-20 1st stringer level in doubles, sure, they are overestimating him. Otherwise, they are not.

And Chitose doesn't and lose to 3rd court, wooooooo. If anyone view Chitose as stronger than 3rd court in doubles, they are overrating him, by far.

Now singles depends on which way you look. But since Momoshiro do manage to beat 1st stringer in doubles, he had a very real change of beating Chitose.

It's not overrated if the character is strong. Momoshiro beat 1st stringer pair. So he is strong, at least in doubles. Inui also beat 1st stringer.

Echizen, Fuji, Oichi got pick as one of 14 people who are consider having the most potential in all of MS. So if anyone think these three are not strong, they are fooling themselves and underrating those characters because Konomi is the one who put them on a team. Konomi is the creators and god of PoT world, no yes, he is right.

Tezuka stomp Atobe without PoP, and got access to PoP freely. He's one of the strongest MS and no, he's hardly overrated.

Now, Kaidoh becomes captain of Seigaku next year, so he have or will have something that give him leads over someone who is better than 1st stringer in doubles.

Now, Kikumaru and Taka? Sure, they're not strong. But I don't remember the last time anyone claiming they are strong, so...?

 

[ChinkyCandie]

I define overrated as how annoying their personality is, not by strength.

 

[Anera]

I'm just observing the debate from afar but it seems to me that the whole talk is based on strength, actually.