Politics United States Presidential Election Thread

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mrcongojack

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The point of negotiations is to come up with a compromise solution; you give up something valuable, in exchange for something in return.

When the Ottomans during the 1600s capitulated (that is, granting special rights and privileges to Europeans) to French merchant demands, it set the precedent for later Europeans during the seventeenth to nineteenth centuries to demand similar rights.


Ottomans at this time were superior to the West. Not the other way around. But as soon as they conceded so much rights to Europeans, more than they would have liked, the balance of power shifted towards the West's favor, and while it was unnoticeable at the time, the Ottomans entered into an era of stagnation and growing weakness, relative to an increasingly improving Western civilization.
The Ottomans may have been superior during the 16th century, but their fall from power had nothing to do with negotiations. They could not keep up with the improvements that were going on in naval technology in Europe. One of the main sources of wealth to the empire was their trade route to China and the East, which they controlled because they controlled much of the Mediterranean Sea. The Europeans, with their improved navies, found another way there, which cut into Ottoman profits tremendously. So, what was more likely to lead to the Ottoman downfall: an economy and military that got weaker and weaker due to the leaps and bounds in naval superiority made by Europeans, or was it because they made some negotiations with the French.
The native Americans had an opportunity to drive out the European settlers at Jamestown. Why didn't they? They vastly outnumbered the incoming Europeans, yet they capitulated to the European's demands. The Native Americans instead chose to trade with the Europeans, were fascinated with European technology, and so forth. The balance of power shifted, and it was only a matter of time before Europeans can compete with Native Americans population-wise.
The number of warriors you have means nothing. Just look at the battle of Thermopylae and the rest of the Greco-Persian war. It didn't matter that the Persians outnumbered the Greeks by the thousands, the Greeks beat them handily in the war and held them off in the battle. The Greeks didn't win because "the Persians capitulated", the won because their military technology and tactics were superior. And our technology and military are vastly superior. We've got more and better guns and nukes. More importantly, Europeans were the invading force in these situations. the Koreans and Iranians aren't swarming American shores with better weapons.

The Native Americans didn't stand a chance against the Europeans. The Europeans guns and germs were too much for them to handle. The germs especially. The North American continent had few diseases to inflict upon invading Europeans due to the fact that humans had been on the continent for only about 10,000 years, compared to the 40,000+ years humans had been on Europe (along with the diseases which were imported from Africa.) So, what was more likely the cause of the Native's fall from power on the North American continent : the guns and germs that Europeans brought here which killed millions and were coming over by the boatloads with even more guns and germs every year, or the fact that they weren't stern enough in their initial dealings with the Europeans?

How would they have pushed back Europeans at Jamestown? Maybe they could have pushed out the English, but much of the rest of European conquest was in South America and the Caribbean. How would a victory at Jamestown rid this continent of the Spanish and Portuguese down in Brazil and Jamaica?
It's the same with the Incans. Pizarro's men were in the hundreds, Atahualpas men are in the hundreds of thousands. It's true, they were inferior technological wise, but nevertheless, Atahualpa capitulated to Pizarro's request of gold and more gold. Atahualpa vastly underestimated the Spanish, and because of that, he put himself into a situation where his empire became susceptible to the Spanish, when he had perfect opportunity to drive them out when they had a chance to do so.
The Incans had just came out of a civil war when Pizarro and his boys showed up. Thanks to this, along with the smallpox the Europeans had brought over, the Inca Empire was in shambles. Plus, their main and only tactic in war was to overwhelm the opponent in a sort of siege warfare, sending wave after wave of your troops until the enemy was too tired to kill anymore. This didn't work so well against the Spanish who, thanks to centuries of constant war with the Moors, were some of the best soldiers in the world at the time. So, once again, what was the Inca's downfall: guns and germs that killed off millions along with the fact that the government was unstable due to recent civil war, or because they weren't stern enough in their negotiations?

European guns and germs wiped out the Natives of South and North America with great efficiency. Negotiations had little to do with their downfall.
 

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What's currently going on between Obama and Clinton makes me think of the following image:


If Obama keeps the momentum going, he's practically guaranteed to be the Democrat's nominee for the presidency.
 

mrcongojack

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So....is anyone else sick of the Democrat primary? They need to hone the system. For example, they could hold only five or six days for primaries to be held and determine them by geography (for example, the first Tuesday in January could be for New England, next Tuesday could be for the Midwest, next Tuesday for the Southwest, etc...) This would cut the primary season to about a month-month and 1/2, and would be easier for candidates to campaign seeing as the primaries would all be in the same general location. Then, they could eliminate all the delegates and just run it off popular vote. It's quick, it's simple, and it's done by the end of February.
 

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The Ottomans may have been superior during the 16th century, but their fall from power had nothing to do with negotiations. They could not keep up with the improvements that were going on in naval technology in Europe. One of the main sources of wealth to the empire was their trade route to China and the East, which they controlled because they controlled much of the Mediterranean Sea. The Europeans, with their improved navies, found another way there, which cut into Ottoman profits tremendously. So, what was more likely to lead to the Ottoman downfall: an economy and military that got weaker and weaker due to the leaps and bounds in naval superiority made by Europeans, or was it because they made some negotiations with the French.

The number of warriors you have means nothing. Just look at the battle of Thermopylae and the rest of the Greco-Persian war. It didn't matter that the Persians outnumbered the Greeks by the thousands, the Greeks beat them handily in the war and held them off in the battle. The Greeks didn't win because "the Persians capitulated", the won because their military technology and tactics were superior. And our technology and military are vastly superior. We've got more and better guns and nukes. More importantly, Europeans were the invading force in these situations. the Koreans and Iranians aren't swarming American shores with better weapons.

The Native Americans didn't stand a chance against the Europeans. The Europeans guns and germs were too much for them to handle. The germs especially. The North American continent had few diseases to inflict upon invading Europeans due to the fact that humans had been on the continent for only about 10,000 years, compared to the 40,000+ years humans had been on Europe (along with the diseases which were imported from Africa.) So, what was more likely the cause of the Native's fall from power on the North American continent : the guns and germs that Europeans brought here which killed millions and were coming over by the boatloads with even more guns and germs every year, or the fact that they weren't stern enough in their initial dealings with the Europeans?

How would they have pushed back Europeans at Jamestown? Maybe they could have pushed out the English, but much of the rest of European conquest was in South America and the Caribbean. How would a victory at Jamestown rid this continent of the Spanish and Portuguese down in Brazil and Jamaica?

The Incans had just came out of a civil war when Pizarro and his boys showed up. Thanks to this, along with the smallpox the Europeans had brought over, the Inca Empire was in shambles. Plus, their main and only tactic in war was to overwhelm the opponent in a sort of siege warfare, sending wave after wave of your troops until the enemy was too tired to kill anymore. This didn't work so well against the Spanish who, thanks to centuries of constant war with the Moors, were some of the best soldiers in the world at the time. So, once again, what was the Inca's downfall: guns and germs that killed off millions along with the fact that the government was unstable due to recent civil war, or because they weren't stern enough in their negotiations?

European guns and germs wiped out the Natives of South and North America with great efficiency. Negotiations had little to do with their downfall.
sorry I've postponed this ongoing discussion between us for so long, I just had a series of midterms one after another for the past weeks, plus some RL stuff, and in fact I have Finals next week, w00t!

anyway, your post, I agree with it, most of it, although there's some details that can be debated, but that's beside the point I was trying to make.

If we were debating if: What caused the downfall of the empires that I mentioned? While it can be debated as to the specific "when" and "how", it's safe to say that the two key causes could have been due to a relative decline in power both externally (a shift in power in favor of the opposition), and internally (usually a rift within the empire itself).

This was the case with the Ottomans (the caliph, or sultan, were the legitimate ruler of the empire, but in fact, the Janissaries, which was the military elites, were the de facto rulers of the multitude of provinces that stretched the empire).

This was true with the Native Americans in North America -- they were tribalistic, and often the Cherokee, Huron, Iroquois, etc...they all contended over power and waged war with one another. The Natives were fractured and divided to begin with, and this in my opinion was what made conquering them by the Europeans easier, than what would have been the case if the Natives were united.

The same was true with the Incans...they conquered and integrated their captives within their empire as they expanded, and naturally there was an enmity among the captives against their conquerors. Pizarro recognized this, and in fact used it to his advantage brilliantly. He defeated the Inca empire not by himself or his small troops. Certainly that couldn't have been possible. He enlisted a coalition of forces of Natives that hated the Incans, and again, this exemplifies how "division" within the empire increases the chance of eventual downfall.

And of course, the Ottomans, Native Americans in North America, and in the South, were all externally inferior, at least technologically......so all of this was true. External and internal weakness are the traits of a declining empire.

But that was not my argument.

to Quote myself:

A sign of weakness in almost all cases, from all the great empires of the past, is when at the height of powers the leaders concede to the demands of other claimants to power, more than likely that empire is bound to disintegrate and fall.
Negotiating when it is not to your advantage, is a "sign of weakness". I didn't say that was the root cause of the empire's downfall.

Obama wants to negotiate with Ahmedinajad, Kim Jong Il, Hamas, etc.....without any preconditions.

He accuses the President of having failed to adopt "agressive diplomacy" with Iran, North Korea, etc....

That is simply a false allegation. In fact, USA have talked with these adversaries a multiple of times. We had secret talks with Iran, for example, in regards to their influencing the Iraq political dynamics, that we felt they were undermining. And when asked to meet with Iran along with Iraqi and USA representatives, three times, Iran postponed these meetings.

What Obama, however, is suggesting, is for the President himself, to meet with these adversaries, personally.

Now, that's just unsound policy. Why should the President have to do that? You don't do that, unless preconditions are met. Otherwise, any negotiations of that nature will resolve or achieve nothing. We've tried it before, and it hasn't worked. Jimmy Carter met with Hamas recently, and that too, hasn't worked. (In fact I would argue that it only emboldened Hamas.) Clinton....oh wait..it was Sec. of State Medeline Albright, who met personally with Kim Jong Il...and what did that achieve? Yes, he gave up Plutonium.......only to replace it with enriched Uranium and became an official member of the so-called "Nuclear Weapons Club".

Israel and the PLO, Egypt, Syria, Jordan....do you think they haven't made any attempts of talking?

They've talked and talked and talked, and only after several attempts at it, it took a while to finally achieve peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan, PLO, and now, hopefully Syria....but at the expense of a lot of war in between.

The point is, you never negotiate with an adversary unless you have the guarantee that you are getting something back. You never capitulate. If you do, it is a sign of your weakness, and also, you are giving the adversary "legitimacy". You're giving them an ammo at the expence of your own, and that is something we cannot afford right now, especially now that our country is so divided as never before (it actually reminds me of the pre-Civil War period......it's very difficult for me to even have a conversation with a lot of my liberal friends, that at times it can turn into an ad hominem debate. I know that both sides are well-meaning, but the overwhelming difference of opinion today in regards to foreign policy is astounding).

Let me finish this point by giving you an example of how negotiating in person without preconditions, which in fact we have tried before, has utterly failed. JFK had a meeting with Soviet premier Nikita Kruschev once, and boy was it a failure. And the fact that I consider JFK as one of my favorite President, that's saying a lot.

Ironically, as Obama continues to defend his position that we should not fear to negotiate with our adversaries (as he felt he was the victim of accusation by the President as he spoke to the Israeli Knesset a few days ago during Israel's 60 years anniversary, when in fact the President was not referring specifically to Obama, but more so towards ex-President Jimmy Carter and more generally, towards his fierce critics), Obama cited JFK's meeting with Kruschev as his argument that he is right, and Bush is wrong. Apparently, Obama has not brushed up on his history....boy is he wrong.

Here is the article:

New York Times
 
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mrcongojack

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@ Miyi (By the way, I'm glad you're back. I've had to decrease my posting as well due to finals.)

What Obama wants to do is not capitulate. It's to negotiate with the Iranians and other fascist/oppressive leaders instead of invading them. The US could go in and invade Iran and North Korea, but let's be honest: intervention has worked out horribly for our country, giving rise to many of America's most fervent enemies (bin Laden, Ahmadinejad) and has bolstered other of our enemies (North Korea, Castro).

Will talking with Ahmadinejad accomplish anything? Probably not. Will invading Iran accomplish anything? Probably not. The problem with taking out any oppressive government in the Middle East is that it will only end up being replaced with another. It doesn't matter who we support in the Middle East or who we overthrow, it almost always ends in the same way: militants taking over.

The only way the Middle East will stop being a haven for Islamo-fascism is to cut off their source of cash, and to do that we need to get off oil. Without funds, these regimes will have difficulty buying and developing weapons or maintaining power, which will lead to an eventual uprising by the people. That is the reason I'm supporting Obama: he's more likely to give tax credits to electric car purchasers/manufacturers and more likely to support alternative electric generation sources like wind farms. I'm not saying McCain would be anti-electric cars, but the Republican party has stronger ties to the oil industry than the Democrat party (again, I know Democrats do take campaign contributions from oil companies, but not to the same extent Republicans do).
 

miyi

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fair enough, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I realize that although we have different perspectives, at least it's good to know that ultimately, we share a common goal.


I want to conclude my point, though, that I really think Obama is displaying how naive he is in foreign policy. If he wants to distinguish himself from the hawkish Republicans and President Bush, that's fine...if that's what it takes to get himself elected. But please don't tell me that by sitting down and talking will result in peace talks, Mr. Senator.

If it was that simple, we could have avoided every war imaginable. Nobody with a common sense really want or enjoy warfare. Soldiers, they want to avoid war if they can help it. But the fact of the matter is, war is how human beings settle differences, when diplomacy doesn't work. And if Obama thinks he'll be the first guy in history of mankind, who can somehow make diplomacy seem like a piece of cake and avoid war left and right, then he is being naively optimistic.

I really wish he'd reconsider....but that is highly unlikely. There's no doubt in my mind that if he becomes president, he'll soon realize this. It will come with experience...he'll learn how the world really works, and that there is no easy solutions.

And just because I believe in the notion that we should not make any attempts at negotiation unless there are preconditions, this does not necessarily mean I'm a belligerent and hawkish type who wants to invade every single country that disagrees with us.

No....far from the truth. If we can avoid war, sweet. But at the same time, I want my President not to capitulate and give up power too easily, to risk emboldening and strengthening the enemy. If there is a negotiation taking place, I want it to be fair, and not to our expense. That is not belligerent...it just means I prefer caution over lenience.


To illustrate my point one last time, why showing "weakness", especially to Middle Easterners, is a very bad idea, I will give two examples.

[1] Culturally, Midde Easterners value "strength" and "trustworthiness" as very significant values. Before Islam, the settlers of the arid Middle East heavily guarded "water" as a matter of life and death, and survival. If there's anyone in the community who is "weak" or "untrustworthy", that person is considered "inferior" and puts the entire community at risk from water-theft-invaders. Thus, if you are "weak" or "untrustworthy", you are less respected, and you needed to be weeded out. You don't belong.

And when Islam was introduced in the region, it took on a slightly altered meaning. To protect the faith, you needed to show strength and trustworthiness (in other words, being truthful and honest) -- hence jihad. If you are weak, then you are regarded as either a "tool" of the enemy, or a "usurper" of the faith. That's why corrupt leaders are seen in a very low esteem in the Middle East, and most times, they'd prefer a religious leader, regardless of their fanaticism, vs. a leader who is corrupt and impious, because the latter is seen as weak and also untrustworthy.

In the same manner, in war, Middle Easterners respect even their enemies when they are "strong". You attempt a "cease-fire" if you cannot defeat the enemy. But once you sense a "weakness" in the opponent, not only do you lose respect for that enemy, but you also break that cease-fire and try to defeat that opponent.

Strength deters the enemy, as well a gain in respect.

Weakness emboldens the enemy, and you've lost respect.

[2]in 1978, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, and for almost a decade, they unsuccessfully tried to export Communism in that country but was thwarted by the mujahideen resistance movement, in which Osama bin Laden was a key player in the whole operation. USA assisted the mujahideen........and this was normal foreign policy back then....our goal was to prevent Communist expansion.

Osama bin Laden obviously realized that the Soviet Union was weak, because it was only a short period after their expulsion from Afghanistan that the empire fell, in 1991.

Osama bin Laden thought, that by defeating one superpower, that he can also defeat the USA, the last remaining superpower. Because the Soviet Union showed signs of weakness, he was able to succeed and conquer the Soviets, so to speak, and this, without a doubt, emboldened him. And it gave him the courage to threaten the USA, and indeed, he did that during 9/11.

Because we haven't been attacked ever since, think of this as a relative "cease-fire". But once Osama bin Laden notice a sign of "weakness", this will only embolden him, and he might attack again.

Weakness is a sign of inferiority especially in Middle Eastern culture, and we cannot afford to convey to them our weaknesses...only strengths.

Notice how Ahmadenejad uses provocative language against his opponents, namely the USA and Israel. He threatens to "wipe out" Israel.

Such provocative language, like I said, to Middle Easterners, is culturally regarded as valuable and respectable traits. Imagine if Ahmadenejad suddenly changed his tone, to a more peaceful and less belligerent one, which is a sign of "weakness", or "capitulation", which is so despicable and an unacceptable Middle Easterner behavior.

When Egyptian President Anwar Sadat renounced his belligerency towards Israel and signed a peace treaty in 1978, guess what.....the radical Muslim Brotherhood, who perceived of their President as having "capitulated", assassinated him.

The reason I emphasize "weakness" relative to Middle Eastern foreign policy, is because I've studied Middle Eastern culture. We shouldn't assume they'll be more understanding towards us, once we show them that we are willing to talk with them. That doesn't necessarily produce favorable results.

Middle Easterners deal with things via a set of "truces" and cease-fire agreements. Capitulating is such a taboo notion for them, that it's despicable, and proves your inferiority. We are better off if we show our toughness, but at the same time, be safely unprovocative so as not to anger them. This is the only diplomatic options we have in terms of the Middle East.

The key is, that we keep them in check, but at the same time, not scare them off to the point that they'll resort to war. That's how Middle Eastern foreign policy has worked, as early as Muhammad, and even preceding him. Checks and balance to power. Strength only, weakness unacceptable.


The only way the Middle East will stop being a haven for Islamo-fascism is to cut off their source of cash, and to do that we need to get off oil. Without funds, these regimes will have difficulty buying and developing weapons or maintaining power, which will lead to an eventual uprising by the people.
Well, this is a good point, although I somewhat disagree with it. It is true that we have to get to the heart of their power, and resource is part of it....oil money.

But in my view, that isn't the main problem. What you are essentially suggesting is a policy similar to the Cuba embargo, and we've tried something similar to this in the Middle East called the Iraq embargo/sanctions, and it angered a lot of Middle Easterners, and in fact Osama bin Laden uses this as part of his anti-American rhetoric.

And it wasn't necessarily successful of overthrowing Saddam either, which was the idea behind the embargo. What actually happened is that Saddam seized all the assets and money all for himself, which in addition to the embargo, further deprived the general population as a result of Saddam's seizing of these wealth. Embargos against totalitarian regimes have proved to be ineffective, and in fact counterproductive, which causes more harm than good. Depriving the Middle East of oil wealth, I think will yield similar results.

I truly want the Middle Easterners to prosper and experience freedom, like we do. And depriving them of any further wealth than necessary is something I take very seriously.

Oil has a double edged sword for Middle Easterners. On the one hand, it have improved their economy and has alleviated poverty. On the other hand, it has been a source of conflict and political instability, because with oil, there is money, and thus power. One example is Saddam Hussein invading Kuwait on the pretext that Kuwait is a province of Iraq. In reality, Kuwait is a very rich oil country, and the only reason why it hasn't been conquered by neighboring countries is because we have made a defense treaty agreement to protect Kuwait from bullying countries such as Iraq.

The problem in most Middle East nations is that power reside in the hands of the elite, and thus there is a widening gap between the rich and poor, and those who have power and powerless. The elites have manipulated the environment in such a way that they are able to maintain their hold on power, either by using military force or persuasion. The tools that is most often useful for persuading followers is by adopting radical religious ideologies, often militant in nature. A great example of this is when the al-Saud tribe, in the late 1700s, made a pact with a radical preacher al-Wahhab. With their coalition, al-Wahhab's ideology was able to attract many followers, and the military arm of this coalition was further provided by the al-Saud family, and together both forces were able to conquer the Saudi peninsula (although it took them three attempts to succeed in this).

This ideology, btw, is also known as Wahhabism.....the religion that mostly influenced Osama bin Laden in his upbringing.

So what we need to attack, I think, is to introduce to the people what it is actually like, when they experience true freedom. Most of the people of Iran, for example, are genuinely eager to gain more freedom and for their country to democratize. They are increasingly discontented with the way the religious elites of that country has been monopolizing government, and it has gotten worse when a fanatical President, Ahmadenajad, was put in office (he's actually an unpopular President).

What we need to do is figure out a way to introduce freedom and democracy, in a way that is palatable to Middle Eastern sensibilities. For example, when the Spaniards introduced Catholicism to the Natives, the adherence of the Natives to idolatry (because they were previously polytheistic), is partly the reason why in some Latin American cultures, there is more emphasis on the Virgin Mary, the infant Jesus, etc.....as opposed to the prescribed worship of only God. So the Catholic priests attracted more followers by making Catholicism less rigid on the issue of God-only worship, which made the religion more palatable to the Natives. The same is true with our notions of freedom and democracy. Middle Easterners are cautious about adopting democratic concepts and modernity, in part because they feel threatened of what it will do to their religion. But look at Turkey.....they have a nearly democratic government, but at the same time, they are devoutly religious. This, I think, is the message we need to send. That Democracy and Religion can coexist, and when people actually get to experience freedom, then it will be the end of totalitarian thinking regimes and power-manipulating terrorists and radical Islamic ideologies. Rather than impoverishing the Middle Eastern regimes via oil, I don't think that's such a good idea. Oil can be good for them.........but you're absolutely right....we have grown way too dependent on foreign oil, and that's bad for us.

I wish that our President is more knowledgeable about the Middle East. Bush sucked at this initially....he knew very little about the Middle East at the beginning, but he slowly learned bit by bit through experience. We cannot afford to repeat that again. The Middle East is very complex, and simplistic solutions will not cut it. I'm so turned off by Obama right now, because of this issue. And I'm almost positive he'll be the guy, and there's nothing I can do but to accept him eventually.
 
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Problems usually occur when America attempts to teach Democracy. There has been Vietnam, Iran, Cuba; these are goverments that we backed up as democracies but the wealth gap widens under these corrupt leaders and their militaries had weapons funded by the US to exert their will on the people.

The idea that one country can exert its philosphy on another is absurd, they wont welcome us. Think about what would happen if aliens from space came in and blew up United States buildings, homes and monuments, disrupted our way of living and while pointing their guns at us told us that we were being done of favor because these aliens who are more powerful than us were going to improve everything. Of course they weren't giving us money or fixing everything they blew up but they inserted this new government and this new government has a whole lot of alien resources and alien guns to control us with. It looks like you have done your research but you're wrong if you think Americans should or even could successfully spread democracy through foreign intervention. Not everyone needs to be democratic and capitalist, one system does not fit every situation.
 

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Campaign Update: Hillary Clinton makes an odd reference to Bobby Kennedy.

Seriously? She compared Obama to Bobby's assassination? Now, I'm not saying she wants Obama to get offed, but honestly... If she is the "experienced" candidate, shouldn't she be smart enough not to say something like this?

EDIT:
Here's the full quote.

Hill Dog said:
My husband (Bill Clinton) did not wrap up the nomination in 1992 until he won the California primary, somewhere in the middle of June, right? We all remember, Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California, I don't understand it.
 
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miyi

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Problems usually occur when America attempts to teach Democracy. There has been Vietnam, Iran, Cuba; these are goverments that we backed up as democracies but the wealth gap widens under these corrupt leaders and their militaries had weapons funded by the US to exert their will on the people.
There's an element of truth to what you're saying.

But you need to put it in the larger context....at the time, we tended to support pro-Western regimes, dictator or not, in an effort to curb Soviet Communist expansion. That was our primary goal at the time, and we used the rationale of "spreading democracy", more as a means to justify our actions. I've said this multiple times....foreign policy is dictated less out of morals, but as a means to secure national interests....and the USA's goal during the Cold War, was primarily to "contain" Communism.

Unfortunately, we clumsily supported regimes that eventually turned anti-American, and that is something we are now paying for, today. But given the circumstances at the time, I think USA was right about taking that approach....we feared the Soviet Union, because believe it or not, they possessed nuclear weapons that matched ours, and if you were the USA's leader, what steps would you have taken?

The War on Terror is different. The Soviet Union collapsed, and there's no longer that "big threat" that we needed to persistently "contain".

The USA now has an opportunity to legitimately advance the argument, that we in fact are genuinely "spreading democracy", with no strings attached.

If we can learn from past mistakes, we can carefully support pro-West governments in the Middle East, without appearing as "occupiers" but as "liberators", and we can do that by having as minimal of a presence in the region as possible.

The political dynamics have changed in the 21st Century....we now have an opportunity to clean up the mess that the USA in part have exacerbated during the Cold War.

You claim that democracy does not work everywhere. I disagree.

I think democracy is an advanced stage of civilization that proves to be the most stable, and all countries have the potential to achieve that state, if given the chance. Even in the Middle East.

The challenge is for undemocratic regimes to realize that in order to keep up with globalization, that they need to modernize. If we can somehow accelerate that process in the least intrusive way as possible, I believe democracy will flourish anywhere, eventually. That's a difficult challenge, but given the threat of "terrorism", spreading democracy is the best weapon to defeat it, in my opinion.

We screwed up in Iraq, but if you look at the situation now, Iraqi people are slowly re-gaining confidence with the US troops. They can see that we are not there to kill them, but that we genuinely intend to help them. And once there is stability, our gradual withdrawal will set the stage for Iraq to democratize. They definitely have the economic capacity to do so, since they own a rich oil reserve.

The alternative is that we let undemocratic regimes to become more and more undemocratic. And guess what? terrorists flourish best in undemocratic environments, and there's multiple evidence that will support this. Let's just start with the Afghan-Pakistan border.....an ungovernable area where Osama bin Laden created his mujahideen operations, which later evolved into what we now know as Al-Qaida.


mrcongojack said:
Campaign Update: Hillary Clinton makes an odd reference to Bobby Kennedy.

Seriously? She compared Obama to Bobby's assassination? Now, I'm not saying she wants Obama to get offed, but honestly... If she is the "experienced" candidate, shouldn't she be smart enough not to say something like this?

I don't know....I personally think Clinton just misspoke...it was a gaffe.

I don't honestly think her intention is to subliminally hint at Obama's pending assassination.

If you quote the whole interview in its full context, you can clearly see that she was making reference to the fact that historically, there were primaries that lasted up until June.

I agree that it was careless, embarrassing, and deserves to be scrutinized...but I will give Clinton the benefit of the doubt here....as much as I dislike her policies.
 

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I don't know....I personally think Clinton just misspoke...it was a gaffe.

I don't honestly think her intention is to subliminally hint at Obama's pending assassination.

If you quote the whole interview in its full context, you can clearly see that she was making reference to the fact that historically, there were primaries that lasted up until June.

I agree that it was careless, embarrassing, and deserves to be scrutinized...but I will give Clinton the benefit of the doubt here....as much as I dislike her policies.
It was obviously a gaffe. A major gaffe. I know she didn't mean it (at least I hope!) My problem with this is, she's running for President. She says something that epic-ly stupid in Office about America's opposition (like Putin or something) we're in a war quicker than she can say "oops". I know McCain and Obama have gaffed, but nothing to the extent of making it look like you want your opposition killed off by an assassin. Perhaps if she didn't stay up until 3 AM waiting for the red phone to ring, she wouldn't have said it.

In 1992, the reason it went until June was because the primary season didn't begin until February. And in 68, the primary didn't really get started until Kennedy threw his hat in in March. This primary has gone on for five months now(along with an entire year of campaigning before one vote was cast), Obama is about 56 delegates away from clinching the nomination. Clinton is 246 away. Obama has a near insurmountable delegate lead, and to paraphrase Clinton way back in January, it's the delegates that matter.
 

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This primary has gone on for five months now(along with an entire year of campaigning before one vote was cast), Obama is about 56 delegates away from clinching the nomination. Clinton is 246 away. Obama has a near insurmountable delegate lead, and to paraphrase Clinton way back in January, it's the delegates that matter.
She's gotten this far, and if you're in her shoes, after all that energy spent, do you really honestly believe, you'll quit now?

If anything, I give her so much props for hanging on until now, and it just shows her strong character, and what we need in a leader.

If there's any indication of Obama's weakening support in the popular votes, just look at the embarassing loss he had in West Virginia and Kentucky, which unfortunately the pro-Obama media disgustingly downplayed.......it matters! the people's votes DO matter!

And for so many Democrats trying to silence her now is by extension an attempt to silence all those who have voted for Clinton....I'd be pissed if I was a Clinton supporter. Not to mention what has happened to the disenfranchisement of Michigan and Florida.

Let the democratic process play itself out. Yes, it will take a miracle for Clinton to win, but that's not even the point.

This is about principles.

The disenfranchisement of the Clinton voters is unconscionable in a supposedly "free election".

You know, it's ironic that Obama claims he will be the guy who'll unify both parties, when he can't even unify his own party.

As to the Clinton gaffe, I was kind of expecting the pro-Obama people to make a big deal about this.

I still can't get over the Reverend Wright controversy.....and the media has done a good job making that issue now irrelevant............I mean c'mon....20 years his pastor and somehow he had no clue what was going on in that church? give me a break!

He's dishonest, and he has the audacity to lecture the American people about Bush's dishonesty, which I think is hypocrisy.

Just the other day he was urging people to cut down on consumption, SUVs, and ACs...yet he lectures about how the Bush administration has intruded on our "civil liberties"....dude, this guy is full of hypocrisy, and he's no different than all the other politicians....I just don't see why people are so infatuated with him.

Clearly once the General Election starts rolling, Mccain will go up against not only Obama, but the media as well, and he has his work cut out for him.

Ideally, since I'm going for Mccain, the best I can hope for is for a significant chunk of Clinton supporters to defect to Mccain. But even with that, I really do think Obama is way too popular and he'll win in the end.
 

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As to the Clinton gaffe, I was kind of expecting the pro-Obama people to make a big deal about this.
Not everyone is into dirty politics. If you are surprised that democrats are taking the high road you haven't been paying attention.

Just the other day he was urging people to cut down on consumption, SUVs, and ACs...yet he lectures about how the Bush administration has intruded on our "civil liberties"....dude, this guy is full of hypocrisy, and he's no different than all the other politicians....I just don't see why people are so infatuated with him.
There is a difference between a politician asking the public to cut down on consumption and an administration that lies and decieves. Lets take a look at the infamous patriot act. Now I'm not going to talk about how the act has been used so that the Federal government doesn't even have to follow the constitution but I do hope that you know about how the act came around. There was an original Patriot Act that congress had time to read and agree on. When the day came to vote for it the Administration switched it into with an entirely new set of laws but gave it the same name. Most of those politicians didn't even know about this new change of laws within the act.

Or how about the fact the act gave the federal government the right to perform searches without warrants. That part of the act had to be mended when a judge deemed it unconstitutional according the 4th amendment. You would think our politicians would respect America's most sacred laws.

When Obama starts using the FBI to confiscate our SUVs then you can argue that he's a hypocrite but as I see it the Bush Administration took 9/11 and used to as a platform to spread their neocon views. Take Rumsfeld, he is actually quoted on 9/12/2001 as for asking how they can connect the September 11th attack to Iraq and invade them. We later then accused Iraq of harboring Al Queda. While they were in the country they weren't a force until we made them a force and successfully spread terrorism throughout the region. Bush actually wants to put oil in the national reserve, when at a time when the common folk is dying at the pump.

Sorry the fact that McCain will put in more Neocons in office, no mater how righteous the man is, I can't support a third term of Bush. Bush himself has always done so little, its his Administration we hate.
 

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the Bush Administration took 9/11 and used to as a platform to spread their neocon views.
and what does that mean, exactly?

I've heard all the above accusations before....that the Bush administration deliberately deceived the American people and stoke fear in order to spread his idealistic neocon "crusade".

In retrospect, war critics have the clear advantage of taking apart all of Bush's failures and criticizing them in detail, now that there's plenty of time to analyze.

But you overlook the fact that during this time, most reasonable and rational politician, whether he/she is a Democrat or Republican, I'm sure is more concerned about preventing another catastrophic attack, as opposed to strictly abiding, verbatim, by the so called "sacred" Constitution that you speak of.

Even Abraham Lincoln, in a time of peril, overstepped his executive powers, when he suspended Habeas Corpus during the Civil War.

Look, I try painstakingly to provide rational based arguments, and provide empirical evidence, whenever I try to convey a point. When the situation permits, I try to offer both sides of the argument.

But whenever I hear comments about neocons having deliberately exploited the 9/11 crisis, in order to spread their "neocon" views, I interpret that as emotion-based opinion bordering on diatribe.

Understandably, I might have provoked this kind of reply from you for having labeled Obama a hypocrite.

The point I was trying to make was that he's no different than all the other politician....he isn't flawless.

And when I disagree with Obama, it does not mean that I "hate" him. It takes a seriously evil act before I consider using that label on someone.

And I think when someone says Bush is a "liar", it's only fair to say an equally negative criticism about Obama. But apparently using the word "hypocrite", might have been too much.
 
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If anything, I give her so much props for hanging on until now, and it just shows her strong character, and what we need in a leader.
I've always seen it differently, actually. If I were American, I'd be really concerned about possibly having a leader who doesn't really see the reality of the situation. It does take a lot of strength to stay on this long, but in doing so, she's caused harm to the Democratic Party (by not allowing it to be unified, not allowing Obama to get a head start on campaigning for the general election, by attacking him whenever she can which should really be left to the Republicans). She's used up tons of her own money in campaigning, even now that there's really no chance that she'll win. Would you want a leader who would make such a mistake, even wasting your money and generally making a bad situation worse because s/he didn't want to quit? That's just bad judgment.

Anyway, Obama may not be perfect, but he's still better than other politicians out there, I believe. He's built his campaign on the idea of change and promoting positive feelings rather than just attacking the other candidates out there. As far as I know, he's been less hesitant to confront controversies and face problems from the past. He's not flawless, but he's better than, well, lots of people out there.
 

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I've always seen it differently, actually. If I were American, I'd be really concerned about possibly having a leader who doesn't really see the reality of the situation. It does take a lot of strength to stay on this long, but in doing so, she's caused harm to the Democratic Party (by not allowing it to be unified, not allowing Obama to get a head start on campaigning for the general election, by attacking him whenever she can which should really be left to the Republicans). She's used up tons of her own money in campaigning, even now that there's really no chance that she'll win. Would you want a leader who would make such a mistake, even wasting your money and generally making a bad situation worse because s/he didn't want to quit? That's just bad judgment.

Anyway, Obama may not be perfect, but he's still better than other politicians out there, I believe. He's built his campaign on the idea of change and promoting positive feelings rather than just attacking the other candidates out there. As far as I know, he's been less hesitant to confront controversies and face problems from the past. He's not flawless, but he's better than, well, lots of people out there.
yes, it's true, and I've pointed it out before, that the longer the Democrat in-fighting goes on, the more likely that the Democratic party will be more fractured going into the General Election. And that has been proven time and again throughout the history of the election process....some examples:

in the 1860 election, the Democratic Party was divided between Democrat Stephen Douglas (Illinois) and Southern Democrat John Breckenridge (Kentucky), against Unionist Party John Bell (Tennessee), and finally, Republican Abraham Lincoln (Illinois).

John Bell was virtually a non-factor, but the Democrats split the votes, and had this not been the case, Abraham Lincoln would have likely not won this election.

Another example was the election of 1912, this time, the Republican Party was split between incumbent President Howard Taft (Ohio), and former Republican President Teddy Roosevelt (New York), whom after failing to win the Republican nomination, formed his own party called Progressive Party.

As a result of this split (and boy, former buddies Taft and Teddy became bitter enemies especially during this election), Democrat Woodraw Wilson (New Jersey) won the election, despite not winning a clear majority of the popular votes.

I understand the concern among Democrats that the longer Clinton stay in this race, the lesser the chance of them being united towards the General Election.

But I also sympathize for Clinton, because she has stayed tough and hung on the race, and an argument can be legitimately made that there is still not yet a clear winner between her and Obama.

I think if "unity" was their biggest concern from the very beginning, both Clinton and Obama ought to have avoided stooping to the level of confrontational ad hominem politics, where both equally attacked each other's personalities rather than each other's policies.

Overall, Obama was less confrontational than Clinton, which I think was good for him. But I think at other times, he was patronizing Clinton as well, which no doubt irritated a lot of Clinton supporters.

On the bright side, as much as I think the Democratic party has been fractured because of this protracted Democratic primaries, there's also some signs that it actually invigorated the Democratic Party, and it seems like the Democrats will have a large voter turnout, regardless of what happens.

Even if Clinton backs out now, it's a bit too late to even make any significant difference if party-unity was the main concern, and she should be allowed to stay and let the election process play itself out. The more you agitate Clinton and urge her to back out, I think will further disunite the Democratic Party.

As for Obama, I have to admit, he's a very deft politician. He has thus far utilized the unpopularity of Bush to his advantage and made a fairly successful attempt to make Mccain appear Bush-like. That's what his supporters want to hear, and he's been able to optimize this strategy as better than anyone.

But this is all superficial, in my opinion. Obama has not been very good at giving clear and substantial responses when asked about foreign policy. At the very least, he's been very ambiguous, and at many times, inconsistent.

In a crowd that is largely Jewish, he says that Iran is a serious threat to the existence of Israel.

And then in a general crowd, he uses an almost contradictory rhetoric, where he downplays the threat of Iran towards Israel, saying that Iran is merely a "tiny" threat (or something to that effect).

I think as a politician, he's very impressive and can move the audience, reminiscent of past leaders, such as JFK. But he isn't very honest, and that part worries me.

He claims to want to talk and talk and talk to anti-American foreign leaders like Ahmadenejad, Kim Jong Il, or Castro, but if you've seen any of the conversations he's had with General Patreus or Iraq Ambassador Ryan Crocker, he refuses to listen to the facts that they offer, and Obama shows that he isn't very open-minded when it comes to "talking". If anything, he was among the least "compromising" of the Senators that was present during that hearing, aside from Hillary Clinton and a few others.

And if you think the Democratic party at this point is so disunited, wait until it gets to the general election......the entire country itself, will be very disunited.

Everyone seems to think Obama will "unite" this country..........what does he mean by "unite", exactly? These are empty words that doesn't mean anything. He is far more "divisive" than he is "unifying".


And another thing I'm so irritated about, concerning this whole partisan politics....is the fact that both sides, Democrats and Republicans, misrepresent each other's arguments. None are willing to concede good points, and both sides think they are right, the other side completely wrong. There is no longer any room for interpretation and rational dialogue. I think both sides are equally guilty of this, and it's ruining this country.

At the end of the day, all I care about are politicians who stick to sound and feasible policies that will advance the interests of the USA, and not because their party said this and that.

An example of how deeply divided this country is, is best manifest in the media between Keith Olbermann and Bill Oreilly....I used to think Oreilly is too one-sided....but at least he isn't as vitriolic as Olbermann.

Yes, the Democratic Party is divided. But so is the entire country.
 

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Latest News on the Election in the United States ...

msnbc news said:
Obama has finally claimed the nomination
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24944453/?GT1=43001
Clintons wants to settle for VP?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24953561/?GT1=43001
Clinton drops out of the race,
Not really a intersting turn of events over there , It was pretty much expected that this would of happen for more than a month, with Obama in the end cliching the nomination.

Does Clinton wants the Vice Presidential postion now? probably for someone with that ambition and repetitiveness , but it doesnt mean Obama might consider her for the VP nomination.

and Finally
Pretty much the election is going to straight foward now on with Obama and McCain are now the only ones in the election.
 

miyi

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There's nothing in it for Clinton if she takes the veep job. If she does, she'd be doing Obama a favor, because Obama might need her constituents in order to defeat Mccain. As nice as it sounds strategically if they can team up against Mccain, in the end, it would hurt Obama in the long run because the two of them will undoubtedly butt heads while in office, and also the fact that you'd have Bill under the shadow.

The bad news for Clinton is that she'd have to wait, most likely, another 8 years if Obama wins the Presidency, and she'd be quite old by then, if she wants to give the Presidency another shot. If Mccain wins, she'd wait only 4 years.

Her accepting the veep position will only hurt her in the long run, because people will grow tired of her, and culturally Americans have a tendency and obsession towards wanting "fresh" faces, and by the time 2012 comes along, being a VP for so long would mean for a lot of people that she's a has-been.

If she really wants another shot at the Presidency possibly 4-8 years down the road, her best option is not to accept any VP invitation from Obama.

But whatever happens, the fact remains, that the Democratic Party is divided up to this point, and it will require a lot of work for them to patch things up heading towards the General Election.
 

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One thing I'm hearing is that VA governor Tim Kaine is a possible VP candidate for Obama. Not sure how probable, but possible none the less. Right now, the state is in upset because Kaine is about to implement another tax hike, as well as $2 each way on a bridge-tunnel that people cross everyday to get from hampton/NewportNews/etc to the Norfolk area and vice versa. Not a happy prospect for the thousands of people who have no other alternate route around the tolls :/ In any case, I don't know how well I like Kaine, but he'd have to be better than Clinton. I hope >.>;

Who else would be a possible VP nod for Obama?
 

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Well, for sure he will choose someone that fits the criteria of "change".

whatever that is.

Probably someone with little political experience, a "fresh" face, so to speak. He'll probably choose someone who's relatively more moderate than he is, to gain some voters on the center or right of center.

hmm...also, someone who's pro Global Warming....possibly Gore?...nah..

or maybe John Edwards. He's been flirting with Obama for a while now.
 
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manu

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or maybe John Edwards. He's been flirting with Obama for a while now.
Edwards is a total political whore, guy always joins the winning side to get in office. Anyways I really hope Clinton does go for the VP. Maybe she doesn't end up Prez but VP would still put her in the history books and if Cheney has taught anything VP has all the perks of the main office with none of the accountability.
 
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