Valhalla vs Leviathan

[XXGenesis]

This thread needs a Poll.

Leviathan is stronger. IMO.

Sooo, I was under the false impression Leviathan was 1/3 of the Dragons Tram created.

Wrong!
Tram’s 3 dragons are Rapid (Kill Yama); Vanquish (Melt Dumas Arms); Valhalla. These are the 3!

Leviathan is a whole another creature that Tram created that he can’t control. Said to be dominant over all inside & outside the tower…..So yea Leviathan I believe is easily stronger than Valhalla.

 

[Demonspeed]

This thread needs a Poll.

Leviathan is stronger. IMO.

Sooo, I was under the false impression Leviathan was 1/3 of the Dragons Tram created.

Wrong!
Tram’s 3 dragons are Rapid (Kill Yama); Vanquish (Melt Dumas Arms); Valhalla. These are the 3!

Leviathan is a whole another creature that Tram created that he can’t control. Said to be dominant over all inside & outside the tower…..So yea Leviathan I believe is easily stronger than Valhalla.

I don't believe the third is Vanquish.

Leviathan was one of the three Water Dragons. Traumerei simply created another after him.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

I don't believe the third is Vanquish.

Leviathan was one of the three Water Dragons. Traumerei simply created another after him.

I share the same opinion right now. Leviathan's mimesis attack used by Baam was literal called Sea Dragon smth. I believe the sea dragons were created in different moments. Leviathan may just be older than his siblings, while Valhala had the Ameuz body mixing so Traumerei could link his Lust and transfer more power into It. While Rapide, while weaker than both, was at least relevant enough for Traumerei to call It back.

 

[XXGenesis]

I don't believe the third is Vanquish.

Leviathan was one of the three Water Dragons. Traumerei simply created another after him.

Didn’t Leviathan say Tram created 3 dragons and to bring them to him? So he wouldn’t be included in the 3…..

It was a TOG youtuber doing a review that brought it to my attention. I’m gonna do a double check, it I’m willing to make a bet (jk, simple bragging rights) on it.

 

[Demonspeed]

Didn’t Leviathan say Tram created 3 dragons and to bring them to him? So he wouldn’t be included in the 3…..

It was a TOG youtuber doing a review that brought it to my attention. I’m gonna do a double check, it I’m willing to make a bet (jk, simple bragging rights) on it.

I am pretty sure that when he was talking about the thee WDs, he included himself among them.

He asked Baam to absorb the three Water Dragons.

Before: Leviathan, Rapid, a third one.

Now: Rapid, the other one and Valhalla.

Valhalla couldn't exist before Ameuz's death.

Leviathan includes himself when he talks about the Three WDs in Chapter 625.

"I don't know why, but he shared a lot of things with us." He also said "We are parts of Traumerei".

Traumerei created 4 Water Dragons, he later decided to use Leviathan as hard drive for his emotions and memories which is why he knows about the latest one I guess. Or maybe he had mentioned it before.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

It's interesting Webtoon used Vanquish as Dragon of Passion

 

[maverickframe_19]

It's interesting Webtoon used Vanquish as Dragon of Passion

Translations of webtoon for TOG are fucking shit.

 

[Shadowlord123]

I don't think Leviathan is one of the 3 Sea Dragons. During the two times he talked about them, he referred to them as something that Traumerei currently possesses and controls. Neither criterion fits Levi right now.

Moreover, we see Traumerei before splitting his power too much (long hair) dumping his memories on Levi. By the time we see the eggs of the 3 Dragons, Traumerei has his current short hair fit (which means he had already split his power even more).

Leviathan should predate the 3 Sea Dragons.

 

[maverickframe_19]

I don't think Leviathan is one of the 3 Sea Dragons. During the two times he talked about them, he referred to them as something that Traumerei currently possesses and controls. Neither criterion fits Levi right now.

Moreover, we see Traumerei before splitting his power too much (long hair) dumping his memories on Levi. By the time we see the eggs of the 3 Dragons, Traumerei has his current short hair fit (which means he had already split his power even more).

Leviathan should predate the 3 Sea Dragons.

Leviathan is the OG sea dragon. The one. Rest is part of his power that Traumerei took from him and split. That's why he wanted the power of 3 water dragons. They were his to begin with.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

I don't believe someone still stubborn about vanquish isn't part of three dragon because SIU didn't box it, but believe valhalla is one even in the box introduction it didn't mention it lol

I give up lmao

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2024, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2024 ---

Valhalla [[one of 3 water dragon that directly control by traumerei]] [[dragon of lust]] it didn't mention like this lmao

Valhala was called one by Gustang. Vanquish, never.

 

[maverickframe_19]

If we take the wording too literally in S3E208, Leviathan referred to the 3 Sea Dragons in the third person rather than including itself with the group.

" The Three Sea Dragons that he commands were all born from the eggs he created. "

Note that Leviathan didn't include itself. It's only saying it in the third person because it has Traumerei's memory about the Sea Dragons he created in the past. Not only that, it also implies that Traumerei currently has all three in his possession.

This means that the power he received from Traumerei was apart from the sea dragons, making him not a sea dragon. Going with this logic, only two have been introduced so far: Enraged Rapid and Valhalla.

Until Traumerei labelled Leviathan as such, I'll trust the people's consensus.

 

[maverickframe_19]

On bold, levi include himself with them after it talks that on your quote.

Spoiler

Let's agree to disagree, my friend.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

Let's agree to disagree, my friend.

Don't worry. This is not the first time SIU does that. Long time ago, there was a hot discussion about the number of thorns pieces.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2024, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2024 ---

Does even gustang know about traum has three or four dragon?

Iirc nope.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2024, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2024 ---

Okey I remembered it wrong about this, gustang mention it sorry

But the last question still stand, does even gustang know about traum has four dragons?

Rapid, vanquish, valhalla, and leviathan

He surely knows about Leviathan and Gustang has mentioned 3 sea dragons. Leviathan's a sea dragon. Could be a 4th sea dragon, obviously the first one.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2024 ---

I don't think Leviathan is one of the 3 Sea Dragons. During the two times he talked about them, he referred to them as something that Traumerei currently possesses and controls. Neither criterion fits Levi right now.

Moreover, we see Traumerei before splitting his power too much (long hair) dumping his memories on Levi. By the time we see the eggs of the 3 Dragons, Traumerei has his current short hair fit (which means he had already split his power even more).

Leviathan should predate the 3 Sea Dragons.

Good point, but remember Traumerei had long hair in the past and Rapide was already on his clothes when he was managing All Creatures. The timeline of when Leviathan, Rapide, and Valhala were born is different. And Traumerei hair or visual won't be very relevant as he can just 'transform'.

I think the greatest point here is that Leviathan is a sea dragon. Vanquish is a poison dragon. If Vanquish is a sea dragon or not, we'll never know at this point. But we know Leviathan, Rapide and Valhala are Sea Dragons, as well as Traumerei's strongest creations.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2024 ---

Expect if vanquish didn't introduce as dragon in the box of introduction, the fact that it introduce as dragon still stand.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2024, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2024 ---

Throw out that box introduction SIU shows to us that clearly said vanquish is dragon I don't know how/why anyone/you keep denied it.

Vanquish is introduced as a poison dragon. Rapide has a textbox calling It a sea dragon. Valhala is mentioned as a Sea Dragon by Gustang. Leviathan not only includes himself among them, as Baam's attacks using his power start with the 'sea dragon' word.

What puzzles me about Vanquish is that It is formed using Kraken's tentacles, and the form of Vanquish as a shadow is very different from the Poison Dragon Vanquish that appears afterwards. Then perhaps, It was called 'poison dragon' because that is Its current form, but It can change according to the dead animal that It uses as armor... who knows at this point, Vanquish is so irrelevant that SIU didn't even care to make Traumerei absorb It back before everything else like Rapide.

 

[XXGenesis]

Holy crap I didn’t know this was topic so split….

little as 2 weeks ago, I never included Vanquish, because of low panel time and not having the water dragon Title box. Then I wondered hey we’ve seen 2/3 who’s the last dragon…to find I’ve seen Tram use 3 dragons already..1 just didn’t have a title box.

So I went back to checked and Yea Vanquish is a Dragon & 1/7 of the creatures he keeps with him….

There a translation issues even with Webtoon when I read TOG primarily on there. So I’m not about to debate heavily with someone online as to who has the proper interpretation of the dialogue…

For now, I say We’ve seen the 3 Dragons. Leviathan is not included…,..Like I said before. If you think Leviathan is 1/3 of the water dragons & there are only 2 more…..let’s simply brag & say I was right!

 

[Jackjohsnon]

Yeah leviathan he knows, because levi knows 10 FHs and can talk to them.

So another two as he mention only know three dragons, rapid and valhalla?

But levi didn't have same status with the other two, cause traum didn't control levi directly, and maybe levi too talk to them that traum didn't/cannot control him, and maybe because of that too traum seal it.



Dragon/sea dragon is a same I think, if that sea is so important, SIU would add it to valhalla as Sea Dragon of Lust, even gustang mention it at first

about sea dragon, same with poison dragon vanquish, both without sea on their title, but traum currently only have three sea dragons/dragons that he control directly, cause levi isn't control directly by traum.

Expect levi or vanquish isn't sea dragon, gustang didn't know vanquish is sea dragon, or gustang thinks that levi is part of sea dragon that traum control directly so he can said traum only own three dragons then he thinks vanquish isn't sea dragon.

About vanquish appearance I think that isn't it real body, but part of it because every time it appear it always destroyed looks like easily cause gustang and dumas iirc that is only that two fighter that traum shows vanquish but if someone didn't be careful about it poison that smear from it destroyed body/parts, it gonna kill them instantly, as happen to dumas's armor hands that cannot restored, and maybe if it real body dragged by traum out from his shinwonryu, it would destroyed/poisoned anything around it and killed everyone who didn't have resistant to it.

It's not the same, friend. Vanquish is not only called a dragon, It's called a poison dragon. There is an adjective here. Just like Valhala was not only called a dragon, or Rapide. T

About Leviathan not being in Traumerei's control... at this point, we only have Leviathan's statements and to be honest, we've seen Baam mentioning Leviathan was reacting to Traumerei's anima powers just like the other shinheuh in the mothership. Leviathan may just be a liar or even It does not know just like Traum just found out that he can cut dimensions with disconnection. A point I would like to highlight is that until recently, Leviathan was in Traumerei's possession (Nest), and Gustang may not know Baam has It inside him.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 18, 2024, Original Post Date: Sep 18, 2024 ---

Holy crap I didn’t know this was topic so split….

little as 2 weeks ago, I never included Vanquish, because of low panel time and not having the water dragon Title box. Then I wondered hey we’ve seen 2/3 who’s the last dragon…to find I’ve seen Tram use 3 dragons already..1 just didn’t have a title box.

So I went back to checked and Yea Vanquish is a Dragon & 1/7 of the creatures he keeps with him….

There a translation issues even with Webtoon when I read TOG primarily on there. So I’m not about to debate heavily with someone online as to who has the proper interpretation of the dialogue…

For now, I say We’ve seen the 3 Dragons. Leviathan is not included…,..Like I said before. If you think Leviathan is 1/3 of the water dragons & there are only 2 more…..let’s simply brag & say I was right!

That's the problem. Vanquish was never once mentioned as one among the 7 just like the crocodile or any of the hundred or thousands animals that Traumerei revealed he can control.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

What makes SIU didn't just box it with poison sea dragon vanquish/sea dragon of lust valhalla?

You see if traum really can control levi, rather than hold baam he can pull out levi from inside baam by control it like he pull out shinheuh that under control BH?

Enkidu can goes out from baam, why levi cannot goes out from baam by pull out from traum that control levi?

Levi isn't in possession by traum on the nest, it abandoned in the nest as traum said to kirin when he is come back from nest in the flash back of wang wang.

He text boxed Vanquish as poison dragon. Valhala didn't need a text box as Gustang introduced It himself. My opinion is that we can't confirm Vanquish is a sea dragon, or even that Vanquish is ONLY the poison dragon, as the shadow of the dragon that later became Vanquish is different from what Vanquish looked after Kraken's tentacles became his armor. If Traumerei did to Vanquish what he did to Rapide during this fight, we would've a better explanation. Even in Traumerei's outfit, we can see Valhala and Rapide with highlighted on his shoulders, while Vanquish is nowhere to be seen.

I mean, you mentioned Enkidu right? Traumerei also told Ameuz he couldn't control It, we saw how that ended. We also need to see how Traumerei's anima powers increased now he went back to his old power.

SIU's been inconsistent with Traumerei's animals. It's not only because controls It that It is among the seven, as he control more than seven animals. But, he also didn't mention Cobalt or Vanquish among the seven, as he also didn't themed Vanquish or Harpe or Cobalt as one of the deadly sins, as he did with Rapide, Kraken, Elgor and Valhala. Just a lazy work from his part.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

What I asked is why didn't SIU box [[sea dragon of lust]] [[valhalla]]?

That is amizu mocked traum that isn't honest ask from amizu and traum answer it by lied.

Enkidu never give testimony about enkidu cannot controlled by traum.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 18, 2024, Original Post Date: Sep 18, 2024 ---

I think that's not by lazy, that is intended by SIU, because the formula of old same theme what villain possess is dull and predictable I think.

I think It's lazy because he started the theme, and Vanquish/Harpe have none. Cobalt we could even argue It is associated to gluttony. But seeing as Traumerei has many frogs, perhaps Cobalt is not even among the seven. Who knows.

Originally the setup of the 23 beasts were that the branches of Lo Po Bia took them as symbols. There is no frog branch, the closest is Lizard.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

That were we speculated that, SIU said nope, so called lazy is far from close to it I think.

No, no. The thing about the 23 beasts is not speculation. About the seven sins, It's the pattern he was following with Rapide, Kraken, Elgor, and now Valhala. It's inconsistent. SIU's been like that for a while.

 

[Demonspeed]

It's not complicated. First, let's even ignore the Sea Dragons title. Just look at Leviathan, he is a dragon and he uses Shinsoo attacks looking like the basic ones. No one looks more than a stereotypical water dragon than him.

As @Justpassingbypassingby said earlier, Leviathan included himself when he talked about the three Water Dragons. He is quite clearly including himself there

Spoiler

Doesn't Leviathan have Traumerei's emotions and memories?

Considering his feats against Gustang and more importantly Dumas, I prefer to not consider Vanquish as one of the three. Not to mention that poison is a different element. Maybe he is, but we need more evidences. Moreover, even if he were, we wouldn't know is the last one because SIU hasn't revealed all of them.

There was no need to mention that Valhalla was one of the three WDs. Gustang said it and he is quite clearly his ace. Traumerei simply created another WD after deciding to use Leviathan as hard drive so he still has 3 Water Dragons, wether you believe Vanquish or not, he currently has three under his control. Leviathan was one of the original three.

 

[maverickframe_19]

I would say Levi is the first water dragon. The most powerful one of them. This is just my headcanon.
Levi is well aware of the other 3 water dragons because if he weren't he would not have said to Bam to bring him the said 3 to complete his mimesis.
Let's say Levi + 3 water dragons is half of Traumerei's power, maybe that's why Levi was confident enough to stand a chance of beating Traumerei.