Fantasy Vergo vs Zoro with Enma

[goldb]

In the Vivre Card Vergo scene's using FBH had a brief caption on the last Vivre card: (quote)
''It super-hardening all your body through your armed ambition, your hard-trained bousoushoku''

The act of hardening by haki is commonly referred to in the manga as ''hardening'' (kouka). Except that in Vergo's card a ''super-hardening'' was used (CHOU KOUKA). There is a prefix before the common kouka. (This translation has been confirmed by two japanese translators, and the official Databook that gets released to the public is just a summary, where there is actually more info contained in the Vivre Card that gets translated)

In the description of the Pica card using FBH there is no such prefix of ''super'' (CHOU KOUKA), so it is clear that the cards wanted to treat Vergo's haki as something special. As of now, only Vergo has been described in this superlative way in terms of armament hardening. This is a translation that has now been confirmed by two translators, one of which is @Puckthegreat, a native japanese on the worstgen forum.

Vergo is also the only one who has been shown to be able to combine gardening with elastic properties and as such display much better application of armament haki. Elastic means it can act as a good shock absorber while being hard at the same time.

DD and a world-renowned scientist, Caesar, all praises Vergo’s haki as something else, and this is mid-battle where he trivialises Luffy, his haki, gears and all his allies: Vergo will kill them all

Pica is not close to Vergo when it comes to CoA hardening (see hardening, which is another application of hai than barrier and emissive haki). Vergo has top tier hardening, whereas Pica’s came up out of nowhere at the end of the battle. they’re worlds apart

What you've written doesn't mean much to my post.

So was Vergo defeated while using this haki or not? My point is a lot of characters claim a lot of things and many more things are proclaimed about them. Doesn't mean it can't be proved wrong:

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 6, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 6, 2020 ---

Nah, he can manage, but not with legit top tier threats like those guys and from how it seems, he was left bloody while they were fine. He also not good with tricky foes to boot since one of them brought him to his knees.

So bleeding during a fight is a sign of weakness and one should immediately concede when cut? Tell me, what happened to Zoro after his clash with Hawkins and Apoo to show that he was defeated.

but Vergo is not someone to take someone for granted so would corner Zoro from preventing to gain momentum in his striking stances like he did with Law.

Why would Zoro take a strong foe for granted if he knows it'd cost him defeat/his life?

In what way would Vergo prevent Zoro from gaining momentum in the fight?

Zoro maybe can hold out with power, but his durability, stamina, and speed aren't that good especially former aren't how they used to be.

So basically since the timeskip, Zoro has gotten weaker? all the things that made the character strong, all the things he's literally known for (his power, durability and stamina) have decreased?

I give Zoro losing without Enma, but with it, Extreme Diffed Either way since if he can use enough force could lay major damage on Vergo unless tanking from Vergo can handle it and knock Zoro back senseless afterwards.

Okay. In my opinion, any sword Zoro uses would allow him to cut down Vergo. With his bamboo, without his bamboo, with his body imbued in haki, without it. The only thing that changes is the difficulty of the fight and Zoro gaining an opening to do so.

 

[King Moe]

What you've written doesn't mean much to my post.

So was Vergo defeated while using this haki or not? My point is a lot of characters claim a lot of things and many more things are proclaimed about them. Doesn't mean it can't be proved wrong:

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 6, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 6, 2020 ---

So bleeding during a fight is a sign of weakness and one should immediately concede when cut? Tell me, what happened to Zoro after his clash with Hawkins and Apoo to show that he was defeated.



Why would Zoro take a strong foe for granted if he knows it'd cost him defeat/his life?

In what way would Vergo prevent Zoro from gaining momentum in the fight?



So basically since the timeskip, Zoro has gotten weaker? all the things that made the character strong, all the things he's literally known for (his power, durability and stamina) have decreased?



Okay. In my opinion, any sword Zoro uses would allow him to cut down Vergo. With his bamboo, without his bamboo, with his body imbued in haki, without it. The only thing that changes is the difficulty of the fight and Zoro gaining an opening to do so.

Bleeding you need medical after the fight and with Apoo, he went onto his knees the moment he took damage from him. Not saying Zoro will get one-shot, but seeing this doesn't say 'Zoro will beat them easily' as that just illogical narrative as Oda putting that Supernova Captains are much stronger than they appear and this is from someone who thought Apoo was one of the mid that Zoro could beat honestly, but now after recent chapters, Apoo is much stronger and difficult to fight with than he appears.

You now how Zoro does a stance before attack, right? That be where Vergo stops him cold just like he did with Law when he try to Room, but got counter. Vergo got the speed over Zoro as you can't say Zoro won't get damage in the long run as his fights in Wano especially recently shows he isn't good on dodging or reacting much even with COO.

Then why did he fainted to stab from Nerfer Kamazou and got on his knees when Apoo slice him? Again if this was pre-timeskip Zoro he would power through, but this current Zoro seems like he traded power and less durability and stamina from the looks of it. I am not saying he didn't get stronger as he did, but it seems his stats on other places are lacking on past fights.

If we talking on Haki clash which I see Vergo's Haki is more than Pica's which Bamboo wouldn't get cut easily if even Law couldn't cut it during fighting with him at the start. No way Zoro can beat him with 1 sword or 2 sword styles as he couldn't manage that when facing Hawkins, Kyoshiro, Gyukimaro, and Kamazou, so why would Vergo fall to his power when the others didn't except Kamazou, but they tied in fainting each other and he need to makeshift his scythe in pseudo 3-weapon style again. Vergo needs all 3 swords to help with him, but don't see him getting beaten without Enma. Enma can give magic attack power to damage him majorly, but he have to get right opening or Vergo would demolish him badly. Which I why I said Extreme-Diffed Either Way as both has means to defeat the other, but it won't be easy fight at all.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Zoro wins. He won't get his legs broken by vergo unlike a certain character.
Zoro one-shot pica real body, who is in similar ranking hierarchy with vergo

 

[King Moe]

Zoro wins. He won't get his legs broken by vergo unlike a certain character.
Zoro one-shot pica real body, who is in similar ranking hierarchy with vergo

Nah, Zoro faints which is best he can do now after running away from threats as of late. Vergo just need to pierce him with his finger and he falls over again. He doesn't have durability like certain character and lost stats as shown when Hawkins, Kyoshiro, Gyukimaro, Kamazou, and now Apoo make him look like hype tool for the arc.

 

[Critical mindset]

Nah, Zoro faints which is best he can do now after running away from threats as of late. Vergo just need to pierce him with his finger and he falls over again. He doesn't have durability like certain character and lost stats as shown when Hawkins, Kyoshiro, Gyukimaro, Kamazou, and now Apoo make him look like hype tool for the arc.

Zoro needs to go serious with G-5 fodders and gets casually blocked by Tashigi (she goes easier as she has no will to fight)

Spoiler

; this scene is underrated where Zoro needs to go serious, while Vergo one-shots bigger volume who come from all directions in a joint attack, and he just needs to spam shigan with one arm to strike down all those fodders. Vergo's attack speed and speed overall >>> Zoro

Spoiler

vs this

Spoiler

Tashigi casually blocks Zoro and is recognised by Monet for her strength and skill with the blade so Monet starts playing dirty with Tashigi instead of clashing with her

Spoiler

so in a physical sense Monet and Tashigi are equals, with even Tashigi being better; and it's not like Zoro finds blocking Monet to be easy

Spoiler

Zoro we all know did his intimidatrion thing which is just a mindgame. He never clashed with her with ease like Vergo shut Tashigi up in this manne, very similar way Oda portrayed Zoro disabling Monet like that and Vergo did the same where he literally froze her to the bone just by observing how he has no chills with his incredibly efficiency and strong he was at taking out all the G-5 fodders like it was a game

Spoiler

Zoro needs to go serious in spite of aid from Brook and Kinnemon to deal with smaller volume of people. I think the difference between the two couldn't be any clearer

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Nah, Zoro faints which is best he can do now after running away from threats as of late. Vergo just need to pierce him with his finger and he falls over again. He doesn't have durability like certain character and lost stats as shown when Hawkins, Kyoshiro, Gyukimaro, Kamazou, and now Apoo make him look like hype tool for the arc.

i know that vergo toyed and wrecked sanji but that doesn't mean the same thing with zoro.
zoro had crazy strong CoA. He could even killed a dude only with a seppuku blade from far distance.
He ran because he had to carry luffy (who was K.O. from apoo)

He doesn't have durability like certain character

like who? Luffy? Definitely not sanji lmao that dude gets beaten by judge easily

 

[goldb]

Bleeding you need medical after the fight and with Apoo, he went onto his knees the moment he took damage from him. Not saying Zoro will get one-shot, but seeing this doesn't say 'Zoro will beat them easily' as that just illogical narrative as Oda putting that Supernova Captains are much stronger than they appear and this is from someone who thought Apoo was one of the mid that Zoro could beat honestly, but now after recent chapters, Apoo is much stronger and difficult to fight with than he appears.

Okay so again, the question I asked was:

So bleeding during a fight is a sign of weakness and one should immediately concede when cut?

For you to say all this about bleeding for the sake of discrediting Zoro while consciously ignoring the fact that Zoro bleeding is almost a character trait from his numerous pre-timeskip is making this debate difficult to have.

Apoo is definitely stronger and difficult to fight than he appears; his ability is not to be underestimated, but once understood, can be dealt with, until he shows he has more to his arsenal. We're going off-topic here, did you have any other reason to mention Apoo other than the fact that he cut Zoro?

You now how Zoro does a stance before attack, right? That be where Vergo stops him cold just like he did with Law when he try to Room, but got counter. Vergo got the speed over Zoro as you can't say Zoro won't get damage in the long run as his fights in Wano especially recently shows he isn't good on dodging or reacting much even with COO.

Yes, Zoro is known to take a lot of damage in his fights, but also shows great durability and endurance to carry on fighting when most would be out. Vergo's speed though (and him parrying Zoro's stances) doesn't mean Zoro can't cut him down.

Then why did he fainted to stab from Nerfer Kamazou and got on his knees when Apoo slice him? Again if this was pre-timeskip Zoro he would power through, but this current Zoro seems like he traded power and less durability and stamina from the looks of it. I am not saying he didn't get stronger as he did, but it seems his stats on other places are lacking on past fights.

LOL, Moe you're funny. You see, when you get stabbed (and you're bleeding a certain amount) and exert yourself during a battle, it's not uncommon to lose consciousness. Similarly if you receive a slash to the chest (an unexpected one at that), you might be forgiven for not remaining on your feet all the way through; especially if (in your own words) Apoo is a strong and difficult to fight(er) than he appears.

If we talking on Haki clash which I see Vergo's Haki is more than Pica's which Bamboo wouldn't get cut easily if even Law couldn't cut it during fighting with him at the start. No way Zoro can beat him with 1 sword or 2 sword styles as he couldn't manage that when facing Hawkins, Kyoshiro, Gyukimaro, and Kamazou, so why would Vergo fall to his power when the others didn't except Kamazou, but they tied in fainting each other and he need to makeshift his scythe in pseudo 3-weapon style again. Vergo needs all 3 swords to help with him, but don't see him getting beaten without Enma. Enma can give magic attack power to damage him majorly, but he have to get right opening or Vergo would demolish him badly. Which I why I said Extreme-Diffed Either Way as both has means to defeat the other, but it won't be easy fight at all.

Right so let me entertain this bit then. Vergo's haki might be stronger than Pica's, how does that stop Zoro from slashing him or his busoshoku bamboo?

As you say Enma gives Zoro "magic attack powers" to damage him majorly, does that then not contradict your statement that "No way Zoro can beat him with 1 sword or 2 sword styles"?

And answer me this (because you keep bringing it up and I'm trying to not consider you a troll), did Zoro lose any of the fights you mentioned there? Hawkins, Apoo, Kyoshiro, Gyukimaro? I just need a yes or no answer because this thread is about Vergo v Zoro after all.

 

[HereNThere]

Oda please do something with these characters soon so we can move on with these discussions, or at least, add a new element to them.

If you want to argue that Dressrosa Zoro would lose to Vergo, go ahead. That might be an interesting discussion. Vergo was Doffy's right hand man, so he was most likely stronger than Pica given how this series operates. At the very least, an argument can be made at that point.

But current Zoro with Enma? Come on. Zoro should take this. Unless, of course, you want to, somehow, argue that Vergo's haki is superior to Dragon Kaido's scales.

Keep in mind, I'm not even saying that Zoro can even cut Kaido at this moment in time. Because I don't believe he can just yet. But Enma has the capability to do such a thing and I would say that, even if Zoro isn't able to pull out the power to cut Kaido, he can surely pull out enough to easily cut Vergo, who's durability should be levels below Kaido.

 

[Shasha23]

Oda please do something with these characters soon so we can move on with these discussions, or at least, add a new element to them.

If you want to argue that Dressrosa Zoro would lose to Vergo, go ahead. That might be an interesting discussion. Vergo was Doffy's right hand man, so he was most likely stronger than Pica given how this series operates. At the very least, an argument can be made at that point.

But current Zoro with Enma? Come on. Zoro should take this. Unless, of course, you want to, somehow, argue that Vergo's haki is superior to Dragon Kaido's scales.

Keep in mind, I'm not even saying that Zoro can even cut Kaido at this moment in time. Because I don't believe he can just yet. But Enma has the capability to do such a thing and I would say that, even if Zoro isn't able to pull out the power to cut Kaido, he can surely pull out enough to easily cut Vergo, who's durability should be levels below Kaido.

Vergo was never Doffy's right hand, that sit was being held for Law and Trebol was the crews chief of staff.

Manga feats and facts clearly show Pica was way stronger than Vergo, its not even close.

fishman Island Zoro would low diff Vergo

 

[Critical mindset]

i know that vergo toyed and wrecked sanji but that doesn't mean the same thing with zoro.
zoro had crazy strong CoA. He could even killed a dude only with a seppuku blade from far distance.
He ran because he had to carry luffy (who was K.O. from apoo)



like who? Luffy? Definitely not sanji lmao that dude gets beaten by judge easily

Judge beat Snack and Zoronhas no credibility as he can’t stand up to nails; bleeding long after while Vergo’s injuries goes away from DJ one panel later, suggesting he dusted it off

Vergo was never Doffy's right hand, that sit was being held for Law and Trebol was the crews chief of staff.

Manga feats and facts clearly show Pica was way stronger than Vergo, its not even close.

fishman Island Zoro would low diff Vergo

Pica has no mission, unlike Trebol guarding the secret to their weapons trade business; Diamanté goes to claim the mera mera no mi; Vergo infiltrates high into the marines to attain his own base and jurisdiction outside of HQ (see he is not a HQ vice admiral so means he has attained position above other vice admirals). Pica is the only one with no mission-notch to his belt, and on top of that the swordsman is Diamanté, and Pica is shown to prefer to drop his sword and go brawling when he puts up his FBH defence. Pica is the weakest of the executives, and Zoro fought him absent his preferred method of fighting.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Judge beat Snack and Zoronhas no credibility as he can’t stand up to nails; bleeding long after while Vergo’s injuries goes away from DJ one panel later, suggesting he dusted it off

Pica has no mission, unlike Trebol guarding the secret to their weapons trade business; Diamanté goes to claim the mera mera no mi; Vergo infiltrates high into the marines to attain his own base and jurisdiction outside of HQ (see he is not a HQ vice admiral so means he has attained position above other vice admirals). Pica is the only one with no mission-notch to his belt, and on top of that the swordsman is Diamanté, and Pica is shown to prefer to drop his sword and go brawling when he puts up his FBH defence. Pica is the weakest of the executives, and Zoro fought him absent his preferred method of fighting.

Well vergo is a tough dude, diable jambe is too weak for him. I agree on that.
But zoro swords is at least G3 tier. I dont think vergo can stand against G3 attacks tbh

 

[Critical mindset]

Well vergo is a tough dude, diable jambe is too weak for him. I agree on that.
But zoro swords is at least G3 tier. I dont think vergo can stand against G3 attacks tbh

He did this with one casual swing with one arm, and he was mortally wounded from an attack that just a fraction of which would kill Zoro. This is way more than 3G lol. This attack is straight out deadly

 

[goldb]

He did this with one casual swing with one arm, and he was mortally wounded

You do know what mortally wounding someone means right?

and he was mortally wounded from an attack that just a fraction of which would kill Zoro

This is way more than 3G lol

...In our opinion, yes? which means it's debatable.

Zoro would take considerable damage from that haki-infused bamboo hit and end up in similar state to Law and Smoker but I tend to believe he's a much more durable character, so as Law, he wouldn't be taken out in a single hit.

How ever long or short this fight goes, I don't see any way in which Vergo can overcome Zoro, especially with a superior blade like Enma at his disposal, that has significant cutting power.

Let me ask you a question, do you think Vergo can survive being slashed once by Zoro?

 

[Critical mindset]

You do know what mortally wounding someone means right?





...In our opinion, yes? which means it's debatable.

Zoro would take considerable damage from that haki-infused bamboo hit and end up in similar state to Law and Smoker but I tend to believe he's a much more durable character, so as Law, he wouldn't be taken out in a single hit.

How ever long or short this fight goes, I don't see any way in which Vergo can overcome Zoro, especially with a superior blade like Enma at his disposal, that has significant cutting power.

Let me ask you a question, do you think Vergo can survive being slashed once by Zoro?

Yes, DD was mortally wounded from all the damage accumulated, and so was Vergo. I think he was mortally wounded from that and that his tanking of a Counter Shock is meant to be an exceptional feat. Law was shocked it didn't work. Zoro would die from a fraction. The only one I don't think would die from a Counter Shock is insanely durable Jack, of course the top tiers BM and Kaido, Queen in full zoan form, the rest dies. Flying six get a taste of this and they die. Oven was portrayed as having inherited BM's durability (the only child) and has his collarbone broken and is so weak he and gets his eyes whitened and is so impacted by base kick Sanjin (who as a result of doing a hit and run puts in a fraction of the force a normal attack would) that he didn't even see his assailant. Do you realise that Vergo wasn't affected by the raw impact at all but from the fire. Jabura no-sold all of Sanji's raw impacts, but the fire did him in. The fire burned him to the bones and 2 of those were enough to put him down

Spoiler

P1 was even bruised and had a piece of flaky skin coming of (posted the panel in the RS Sanji sv Vergo debate) so Vergo at this point outshines the trashcans that are the flying six.

Does Vergo survive Zoro's cut? Yes, I think Chou Kouka does (VC hype). Caesar knows of Law's ability and what it does, so does DD. They underestimated the extent, that he can cut up an entire island and mountain range. From the hype his haki received (and backed up by stellar feats) Vergo survives current Zoro if he was given a freeshot given that Zoro is far from Oden's mastery at this point

 

[King Moe]

i know that vergo toyed and wrecked sanji but that doesn't mean the same thing with zoro.
zoro had crazy strong CoA. He could even killed a dude only with a seppuku blade from far distance.
He ran because he had to carry luffy (who was K.O. from apoo)



like who? Luffy? Definitely not sanji lmao that dude gets beaten by judge easily

Sanji withstand Zoro, but Zoro couldn't take out an nerfer and fox who you think are above Vergo? I don't think so. Zoro would get his body kick in if he couldn't' handle those two making him faint in the end. I didn't see any COA action when he got pierce and fall over seconds later. So your point doesn't make sense and you do know Luffy came back from stronger blow compare to Zoro who was on his knee from regular move from Apoo, so you can't compare them both.

Sanji is stronger than Judge a long time ago while we have no info if Zoro can handle credible foes given he been hype tool badly this arc, so no trust he can handle someone like Vergo and get his swords broken in the end while body once again.

 

[goldb]

Yes, DD was mortally wounded from all the damage accumulated, and so was Vergo. I think he was mortally wounded from that and that his tanking of a Counter Shock is meant to be an exceptional feat. Law was shocked it didn't work. Zoro would die from a fraction.

You brought up a panel with Smoker v Vergo in order for you to show how strong Vergo's attacks are and say that he mortally wounded Smoker, which I questioned, you then replied eloborating about Law's use of Counter Shock against DD and Vergo.

How is that answering my question about Vergo mortally wounding Smoker?

Does Vergo survive Zoro's cut? Yes, I think Chou Kouka does (VC hype). Caesar knows of Law's ability and what it does, so does DD. They underestimated the extent, that he can cut up an entire island and mountain range. From the hype his haki received (and backed up by stellar feats) Vergo survives current Zoro if he was given a freeshot given that Zoro is far from Oden's mastery at this point

Alright, fair enough lol. Vergo has feats of haki that we've seen against Sanji, Law, Smoker and the others. His feats in Punk Hazard aside, is his haki stronger than Zoro? I don't believe that it is, nor that he's skillful enough to defeat him. With or without Enma, Zoro's haki should be superior to not only defeat Vergo but outclass him if their weapons clash. Zoro has though rokushiki users before where their whole bodies are a weapon, so he'd be aware of what to expect even if they didnt have a sword.

 

[Critical mindset]

You brought up a panel with Smoker v Vergo in order for you to show how strong Vergo's attacks are and say that he mortally wounded Smoker, which I questioned, you then replied eloborating about Law's use of Counter Shock against DD and Vergo.

How is that answering my question about Vergo mortally wounding Smoker?



Alright, fair enough lol. Vergo has feats of haki that we've seen against Sanji, Law, Smoker and the others. His feats in Punk Hazard aside, is his haki stronger than Zoro? I don't believe that it is, nor that he's skillful enough to defeat him. With or without Enma, Zoro's haki should be superior to not only defeat Vergo but outclass him if their weapons clash. Zoro has though rokushiki users before where their whole bodies are a weapon, so he'd be aware of what to expect even if they didnt have a sword.

his feats of haki against Sanji equates to nill because he didn't use armament. See the fight again. NO haki, no rokushiki, no punches...No bamboo! He was only using kicks and beating him at his own game at the later half of the match. Law's diversion saved Sanji's life

Vergo was at a fraction of his full strength bc of an attack that would kill just about anyone else. Even here looks casual as fuck while doing it as if this is jsut another day on the job for him one-shotting Smoker like guys, and he is in a mortally wounded state

he doesnt even have any momentum here, it's a stationary attack

Smoker > Tashigi who is durable than Zoro who loses to nails whiel Tashigi doesn't have her shoulder ripped off. Vergo's onitake is deadly. What is so impressive about Zolo with Enma when the gifters are treating him like garbage?

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

his feats of haki against Sanji equates to nill because he didn't use armament. See the fight again. NO haki, no rokushiki, no punches...No bamboo! He was only using kicks and beating him at his own game at the later half of the match. Law's diversion saved Sanji's life

Well vergo did have easy win against sanji.

 

[King Moe]

Well vergo did have easy win against sanji.

Nah, but we know Zoro was defeated easily by Kamazou and Gyukimaro. That just facts. Plus running away from Kyoshiro and Apoo doesn't help push he could beat Vergo. He probably ran when knowing how strong Vergo is. Just ask @Critical mindset .

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Nah

The fight ended with sanji having a broken legs. He lost easily to vergo. But zoro is also an expert of CoA so i dont see zoro getting his bones broken easily like sanji