Discussion Vista and Mihawk

[M3J]

I agree that Oda messed up with Crocodile and I do think that Crocoboi is a lot stronger than we think.

The thing that Oda messed up about Whitebeard Pirates, imo, is naming Ace as 2nd division commander, implying that he is 2nd strongest commander which i disagree with. I would keep Marco as first commander, I would probably place Jozu as 2nd commander and Vista as 3rd (or maybe switch Jozu and Vista places). I would place Ace as 4th and Thachi as 5th only because we got 0 information on Thachi's abilities.Oda probably wanted to hype up the son of Pirate King by giving him that position and the fact that he was logia in pre-time-skip era when a logia was troublesome to fight but I think that both Jozu and Vista are more powerful in post-time-skip era with CoA heavily present.

I dont expect Mihawk to one-shot the strongest swordsman under Whitebeard. I think that would give no justice to commander Vista as commanders are powerhouses for themselves. A skilled swordsman whose name is known to strongest swordsman says something.

Wait, where was it mentioned that the division they commanded over depended on their power or that it was an indication of their strength?

 

[Fox666]

Regarding swordsmanship vs strength, while the word "strength" in English refers to physical strength, in Japanese it's used more widely. The "Strongest swordman" title likewise should meant that Mihawk can defeat anyone on a sword fight.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Because she was raised in a sexist world completely dominated by famous men swordsmen without a single role model female swordsman to give her hope. Her father even admitted it. She didn't exactly have a supporting dather

Are you serious? lol

Your basing Swordsmanship=Strength on a depressed little girls notion of strength???

Next point:

The smoke bomb was way before haki was set in stone. It was chapter 1.

We are talking about a manga that wasn't expecting to last this long. I admitted their were mistakes. Oda has as well.

These data books are current, with very up to date facts from a fully fleshed out manga bearing its end.

Your bias is freely showing here.

If the data book outright said Mihawk was stronger than Shanks, you would be clinging to them harder than a priest does a bible.

Edit: Off topic, I just saw your profile picture and I laughed so hard I spit out my coffee lol. That's great! Has anyone attacked you about it yet?

This forum is notorious for both Sanji/Zoro bashing. I bet Sanji fans "love" it

when did kuina father say that he made mistake foe the "sexist" statement?

strength clearly played a big role, especially haki. We saw how a club swing made g4 luffy knocked out.

no shit sherlock that mihawk is the better swordsman than shanks. The thing i initially said thought that there was plot hole in the power scale. Mihawk shouldnt be yonkou tier since he couldnt manage to destroy crocodile and vista easily

 

[goldb]

Wait, where was it mentioned that the division they commanded over depended on their power or that it was an indication of their strength?

It doesn't. We don't know much about what each division does, but we've gotten some information from the recent Vivre Card/Ace novel about certain commanders that makes for good assumptions. Jozu's division is the vanguard, so that's where most of the fighters that aren't commanders are. Vista's division is all swordsmen, we know from the Ace novel that Thatch was a cook and his division was in charge of the kitchen. Marco was shown to be interested in navigation as a child but we know he's a doctor, so it could be his division is in charge of one of the other, but his vivre card says he's also very knowledgeable, so I wouldn't rule out anything beyond the two.

Beyond the roles of their division, nothing has been said about the commanders out-ranking each other or any comparison in strength. Only what we've witnessed in the war and can surmise ourselves.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

Mihawk will probably beat Shanks in a swordsfight but if Shanks can fight the way he wants...in other words choose a style he is most proficient at, he will probably win. There is nowhere in the manga that specifically states Mihawk is not as powerful as Shanks PERSONALLY. But As powerful as Shanks is as a Yonkou? Nah, a Yonkou has, territory, fodder, AND strength. Doflamingo had a shitload of underlings but even then, that was a fraction of Big Mom's many fleets. Mihawk will only be able to beat Shanks in a swordfight. I doubt they are out to kill each other but mark my words, when Oda finally show us a real Shanks fight, we will all be like

and we will all be like mhmmm. Yep. This guys about to woop some ass. Goddamn Oda been hyping this fool for so long and all we get is a stalemate slash with Whitebeard and another with Akainu. Oh yeah, Both Whitebeard AND Akainu has 2 arms xD. Man that means Shanks got one powerful winter soldier arm. Alright now I'm just fanboying hahahaha.

 

[M3J]

Regarding swordsmanship vs strength, while the word "strength" in English refers to physical strength, in Japanese it's used more widely. The "Strongest swordman" title likewise should meant that Mihawk can defeat anyone on a sword fight.

It doesn't necessarily mean that, unless Mihawk personally fought every swordsman of notable power and still won.

Although, he can be the strongest swordsman and still be horribly battered and bruised against Vista.

It doesn't. We don't know much about what each division does, but we've gotten some information from the recent Vivre Card/Ace novel about certain commanders that makes for good assumptions. Jozu's division is the vanguard, so that's where most of the fighters that aren't commanders are. Vista's division is all swordsmen, we know from the Ace novel that Thatch was a cook and his division was in charge of the kitchen. Marco was shown to be interested in navigation as a child but we know he's a doctor, so it could be his division is in charge of one of the other, but his vivre card says he's also very knowledgeable, so I wouldn't rule out anything beyond the two.

Beyond the roles of their division, nothing has been said about the commanders out-ranking each other or any comparison in strength. Only what we've witnessed in the war and can surmise ourselves.

Well, that's annoying and misleading on the members' part. The big question though is just how much of the war can we take seriously, given Oda's changed few things around like haki. It makes no sense that none of the fighters like Marco or Whtiebeard used hardening against opponents like Kizaru and Akainu, and vice versa. And honestly, we (or I in any case) can't really gauge the crew's strength, but we can assume Vista's notable enough to be remembered by Mihawk and still be standing and fighting even after he and Mihawk ended their duel.

 

[nik87]

Wait, where was it mentioned that the division they commanded over depended on their power or that it was an indication of their strength?

You are correct, it wasnt mentioned anywhere and Goldb already provided more information about WB's crew structure but Woro assumed to be so, perhaps because of the structure of other Yonkos crews that we saw so far where that does apply (BM pirates and Beast pirates).
Whitebeard crew structure definitely doesnt look like it has commanders listed by their strength, Marco aside. It makes no sense that rookie who joined recently is above seasoned captains of vanguard and swordsmen divisions, being a logia doesnt justify it. They had Blackbeard in crew who wasnt a ranked captain and at that time was probably inferior in strength only to Marco.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

You are correct, it wasnt mentioned anywhere and Goldb already provided more information about WB's crew structure but Woro assumed to be so, perhaps because of the structure of other Yonkos crews that we saw far where that does apply (BM pirates and Beast pirates).
Whitebeard crew structure definitely doesnt look like it has commanders listed by their strength, Marco aside. It makes no sense that rookie who joined recently is above seasoned captains of vanguard and swordsmen divisions, being a logia doesnt justify it. They had Blackbeard in crew who wasnt a ranked captain and at that time was probably inferior in strength only to Marco.

no formal hierarhy but based on feats and hypes, the power ranking should go just like commanders in other yonkou crews.

Marco and jozu are the ones having combat feats at beginning of the war, and the ones fighting against admiral. Not Squardo.

Ace being 2nd commander however is PIS. But to be fair ace is confirmed shichibukai tier by having a draw to jimbei even before he even joined wb pirate

 

[takneeque]

Oda corrected the mistake and scaled him correctly, but for us it's just weird he's suddenly clashing with Mihawk, Akainu, and Doflamingo lol.

My personal head cannon is that he trained in level 6 Impel down and because of that he grew exceptionally stronger by the time Marineford War started up. lol!!!!!

It fits the timeline and is believable.

Hahaha..that is a great idea. I can't believe I never thought of doing that before. On the other hand, it's already too confusing with all these details.

 

[Fox666]

It doesn't necessarily mean that, unless Mihawk personally fought every swordsman of notable power and still won.

Maybe Kaido is not the strongest creature alive because there could be an even more powerful individual who lived his entire life on a cave and nobody knows about. But the titles are usually what the population believe...

 

[afromarco005]

One Piece Visual Dictionary:

"Vista has the skills to compete with Mihawk, one of the most famous swordsmen in the world. He wasn't afraid to confront him despite knowing Mihawk was the strongest."

However that's not new, and something similar had already been revealed in another databook.

One Piece Blue Deep:

"Vista showed his swordsmanship which is equal or superior to Mihawk's in this fight."

Spoiler

You guys have become blasphemous now, Vista better swordsmanship than mihawk?
You mean the guy that was dueling with Shanks back when he had both his arms then stopped when he lost one because he found it unfair?
And you compare that to a yonko commander? Do you realize what theWSS title means in a world like one piece?

 

[Pirate Queen]

Spoiler

You guys have become blasphemous now, Vista better swordsmanship than mihawk?
You mean the guy that was dueling with Shanks back when he had both his arms then stopped when he lost one because he found it unfair?
And you compare that to a yonko commander? Do you realize what theWSS title means in a world like one piece?

Compete with Mihawk, not beat.

 

[afromarco005]

Compete with Mihawk, not beat.

ah my bad

 

[Pirate Queen]

when did kuina father say that he made mistake foe the "sexist" statement?

strength clearly played a big role, especially haki. We saw how a club swing made g4 luffy knocked out.

no shit sherlock that mihawk is the better swordsman than shanks. The thing i initially said thought that there was plot hole in the power scale. Mihawk shouldnt be yonkou tier since he couldnt manage to destroy crocodile and vista easily

You misunderstand. I didnt say that. Kuina's father admitted that since she was a girl, her odds of being a great swordsman was 0. He filled her head with non-sense.

Your idea of Yonko tier is too black and white I believe.The ability to one shot a Shichibukai and Yonko Commander doesn't make you Yonko Tier

Mihawk clashed with Crocodile and Vista. Neither of these were full on battles Mihawk would have eventually come out on top (I believe).

It was a war. Other factors were invloved.

Vista being as skilled with a sword as Mihawk DOESN'T mean he is Yonko tier because Mihawk and Shanks are rivals.

If Vista and Shanks used swords ONLY and no other powers, Vista has just as much of a chance as winning as Mihawk

 

[Fox666]

Spoiler

You guys have become blasphemous now, Vista better swordsmanship than mihawk?
You mean the guy that was dueling with Shanks back when he had both his arms then stopped when he lost one because he found it unfair?
And you compare that to a yonko commander? Do you realize what theWSS title means in a world like one piece?

I'm just quoting official sources.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Alot of things people dont consider when discussing the Mihawk/Shanks rivalry.

If you constantly fought with another person over the course of YEARS, it becomes IMPOSSSIBLE to surprise eachother.

If they were to fight now, Mihawk would know everything there was to know about Shanks fighting style and Visa versa.

Every twitch, every follow up, every par, every counter...

Of course both would have to adapt to Shanks only having one arm but the premise remains. They know eachother far to well.

Now stack Mihawk up against Kaido.. Or Big Mom. Or Whitebeard who are island destroying monsters and Mihawk wouldn't fair nearly as well.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 4, 2018 ---

I'm just quoting official sources.

Never did thank you for posting that!

 

[afromarco005]

From the same databook

Spoiler

Mihawk's description says that he is sitting at the top after challenging all the powerful sworsdmen until he had no more worthy challengers

This includes the likes of Vista.
Also it confirms that Shanks is his rival and I take it that they are at least on the same level.

 

[goldb]

Well, that's annoying and misleading on the members' part. The big question though is just how much of the war can we take seriously, given Oda's changed few things around like haki. It makes no sense that none of the fighters like Marco or Whtiebeard used hardening against opponents like Kizaru and Akainu, and vice versa. And honestly, we (or I in any case) can't really gauge the crew's strength, but we can assume Vista's notable enough to be remembered by Mihawk and still be standing and fighting even after he and Mihawk ended their duel.

They did...how else were they able to hit them?

In any case and back to the topic of this thread.
I for one can say I never underestimated Vista's strength; Mihawk knowing who he was and asking to postpone their fight and not simply trying to end it by his own strength speaks to the former's abilities and Mihawk's acknowledgement of it. We have to be careful though in not just throwing around comments like Vista can beat Mihawk. We have confirmation that he's a "top class" swordsman( literally what it says on his card) and that he can compete against Mihawk but I wouldn't go as far as to say he could win. For me, it just means it'd be a challenging fight for Mihawk; maybe one he hasn't had in a while.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

My final thoughts on this matter is that even if Mihawk is the strongest swordsman, other swordsmen can still hurt him but in the end he will prevail. Against shanks or Vista. Now if he has to fight Kizaru with his light fruit and he makes that lightsword, and use his speed of light powers, Mihawk is done because that is not a true swordfight.

IMO though, this discussion should be closed by now lol. We really covered all the points and people will just not agree and that's okay.

 

[Fox666]

They did...how else were they able to hit them?

Unfortunately the series is inconsistent regarding the visible effect of Haki before and after the timeskip.