Discussion Vista and Mihawk

[hokageji]

Yeah, Crocodile shouldn't have been a Shichibukai. It would have been far better if he was the first mate or "right hand" of an actual Shichibukai.

Well, I dont know if it adds up through proof in the manga, but i think Crocoboy's DF ability works against him. His weakness is water. The real world consists of 70% water and that's probably only higher in the OP world. Doesnt matter if you have a strong haki, the DF ability's natural enemy allows easy tangibility. So in case there is something a Logia DF user can do (for instance a logia with awakening can act like a paramecia and his body doesnt work like an extension of his physical self), water on his physical self will still make him tangible.

Someone who had the balls to attack Whitebeard isnt weak. He was also a Level 6 prisoner, a level higher in notereity than the RA members.

 

[M3J]

You are correct, it wasnt mentioned anywhere and Goldb already provided more information about WB's crew structure but Woro assumed to be so, perhaps because of the structure of other Yonkos crews that we saw so far where that does apply (BM pirates and Beast pirates).
Whitebeard crew structure definitely doesnt look like it has commanders listed by their strength, Marco aside. It makes no sense that rookie who joined recently is above seasoned captains of vanguard and swordsmen divisions, being a logia doesnt justify it. They had Blackbeard in crew who wasnt a ranked captain and at that time was probably inferior in strength only to Marco.

Blackbeard wasn't perceived to be strong though, he kept low-key that he probably wasn't seen as that dangerous. Although, Ace did say Blackbeard deserved to be the leader of Division 2 simply because he served under Whitebeard the longest, rather than by the merit of his strength.

Maybe Kaido is not the strongest creature alive because there could be an even more powerful individual who lived his entire life on a cave and nobody knows about. But the titles are usually what the population believe...

And as Morgans proved with Luffy, the titles may or may not be earned. hell, Roger was said to be the strongest, but we learned that he didn't fight or beat Big Mom and Kaidou.

They did...how else were they able to hit them?

In any case and back to the topic of this thread.
I for one can say I never underestimated Vista's strength; Mihawk knowing who he was and asking to postpone their fight and not simply trying to end it by his own strength speaks to the former's abilities and Mihawk's acknowledgement of it. We have to be careful though in not just throwing around comments like Vista can beat Mihawk. We have confirmation that he's a "top class" swordsman( literally what it says on his card) and that he can compete against Mihawk but I wouldn't go as far as to say he could win. For me, it just means it'd be a challenging fight for Mihawk; maybe one he hasn't had in a while.

I meant hardening where they turned their body part black...

But I basically agree with the last paragraph. Hell, it might be the top three challenging fight Mihawk will have every time they fight, even.

 

[kkck]

Well, I dont know if it adds up through proof in the manga, but i think Crocoboy's DF ability works against him. His weakness is water. The real world consists of 70% water and that's probably only higher in the OP world. Doesnt matter if you have a strong haki, the DF ability's natural enemy allows easy tangibility. So in case there is something a Logia DF user can do (for instance a logia with awakening can act like a paramecia and his body doesnt work like an extension of his physical self), water on his physical self will still make him tangible.

Someone who had the balls to attack Whitebeard isnt weak. He was also a Level 6 prisoner, a level higher in notereity than the RA members.

In a high level fight it is rare for the intangibility to be THAT beneficial. Luffy merely did what haki would have otherwise allowed him by using water. At that point the intangibility provides an advantage if you can actually dodge, katakuri style... It's not like merely being able to touch a logia is the key to defeating them. That's step 1... Unless the logia in question is garbage. I do think oda has sort of... retconned crocodile to an extent so that his strength is at least relevant in the new world even if he isn't a powerhouse. I mean, doflamingo wanted crocodile in his crew but in turn rejected bellamy whom by any logic would appear to be vastly more powerful than crocodile as we saw in alabasta.

 

[Fox666]

Blackbeard wasn't perceived to be strong though, he kept low-key that he probably wasn't seen as that dangerous. Although, Ace did say Blackbeard deserved to be the leader of Division 2 simply because he served under Whitebeard the longest, rather than by the merit of his strength.

Although Ace didn't say anything about strength, I presume it was a factor on him Blackbeard to be the commander.

 

[hokageji]

At that point the intangibility provides an advantage if you can actually dodge, katakuri style... It's not like merely being able to touch a logia is the key to defeating them

Yes, that is what i meant with logia / paramecia with awakening. My point is even if he could do that, Water will remain an enemy. In the end, his DF was working against him.

I mean, doflamingo wanted crocodile in his crew but in turn rejected bellamy whom by any logic would appear to be vastly more powerful than crocodile as we saw in alabasta.

Bellamy wasnt more powerful than Crocodile by any means. He literally got one shot KO'ed by Luffy, while Luffy struggled with Crocodile inspite of knowing his weakness....

Anyways, probably what Crocodile knows makes him quite dangerous.

 

[nik87]

Bellamy wasnt more powerful than Crocodile by any means.

I think he compared Dressrosa Bellamy vs Alabasta Crocodile. It could be argued since Bellamy from Dressrosa was able to use CoA and his ability allows quite a punch, similar to Luffy but inferior.

 

[hokageji]

I think he compared Dressrosa Bellamy vs Alabasta Crocodile. It could be argued since Bellamy from Dressrosa was able to use CoA and his ability allows quite a punch, similar to Luffy but inferior.

OH yea, that would make sense.... i take my comme. back in that case..

Also while on that topic, how did Crocodile survive the beheading by Doflamingo. What point would it serve Doffy to not use Haki at that instant. Its not like Crocoboy would be intimidated by that. Its easy to think it means nothing but with Oda, i cant help myself but think Oda is trying to say something subtle which will be important in the future. Just like Mihawk's comment to Luffy " you seem unusually calm" which was revealed to be a key for future sight, i think it may be a hint on Logia's awakened abilities.

 

[Admiral Teach]

Let's not forget that Crocodile was hardly one-shotted. he defeated Luffy, not once, not twice, but three times. he impaled Luffy and buried him alive. Before that, it was the cage with rising water level and bananadiles. Then he dessicated him and left him for dead. Luffy's survival from back then was pure miracle work.

As a villain, Crocodile survived until the last moment when he finally battled Luffy in the underground chamber, and it was still a close call. And in regards to future sight... let us not forget, you must be "calm" to use it. Learning that the location to Pluton was right there, but Robin was unwilling to give it to him, on top of the bratty immortal (Luffy) coming back for the upteenth time somehow still alive, was probably not altogether calming for Crocodile. he probably was close to hysteria emotionally. Didn't he ask, "What do I have to do to kill you, boy?"

And then we have the collapsing cave, yes? I wouldn't be worried about dodging the Mugiwara brat as much as I would the trap ceiling, for what it was worth.

There was also the rainstorm to consider. It sort of came out of nowhere. Perhaps Crocodile was actually battling the weather itself during the whole Battle of Alburna. That could explain some distraction or suspicious weakness.

 

[M3J]

Although Ace didn't say anything about strength, I presume it was a factor on him Blackbeard to be the commander.

While it was probably a factor, Ace still mentioned Blackbeard deserved to lead a division because he was part of the crew for probably the longest time out of everyone at the time. I'm sure there's more to it than just power, and that power itself has nothing to do with who leads which division.

 

[Fox666]

It's the same thing as being the captain of a crew. While on theory the captain is not necessarily the strongest, that seems to be true in practically all cases. I presume a subordinate would challenge the captain/commander and get the position? It's only different with Ace/Blackbeard because they would allow someone else to lead.

 

[McNuss]

Let's not forget that Crocodile was hardly one-shotted. he defeated Luffy, not once, not twice, but three times. he impaled Luffy and buried him alive. Before that, it was the cage with rising water level and bananadiles. Then he dessicated him and left him for dead. Luffy's survival from back then was pure miracle work.

As a villain, Crocodile survived until the last moment when he finally battled Luffy in the underground chamber, and it was still a close call. And in regards to future sight... let us not forget, you must be "calm" to use it. Learning that the location to Pluton was right there, but Robin was unwilling to give it to him, on top of the bratty immortal (Luffy) coming back for the upteenth time somehow still alive, was probably not altogether calming for Crocodile. he probably was close to hysteria emotionally. Didn't he ask, "What do I have to do to kill you, boy?"

Correct. It is pretty evident that Crocodile's pride was greatly hurt after all his plans had been crushed by a mere rookie pirate. That's why he engaged Luffy in close quarter combat. Crocodile's strenght are Logia special moves. Luffy's strenght is close quarter combat. All the unfortunate events that happened lead to Crocodile losing his temper and him fighting in a way that put him at a disadvantage. It was a thing about pirate honor.

While a lot of Crocodile's feats at Marineford are debatable, he took a hit from Diamond Jozu and didn't drop out. That's a great feat.

OH yea, that would make sense.... i take my comme. back in that case..

No need, Crocodile is likely still stronger than post-ts Bellamy. Bellamy may have Haki, but his normal move strenght is just mediocre and his ultimate attack is complete bullshit. If he does it, Crocodile would just swirl him away with a sandstorm. Don't get me wrong, Bellamy has gotten very strong, but I can't see him tank a hit from Jozu and get up relatively unfazed

Also while on that topic, how did Crocodile survive the beheading by Doflamingo. What point would it serve Doffy to not use Haki at that instant. Its not like Crocoboy would be intimidated by that. Its easy to think it means nothing but with Oda, i cant help myself but think Oda is trying to say something subtle which will be important in the future. Just like Mihawk's comment to Luffy " you seem unusually calm" which was revealed to be a key for future sight, i think it may be a hint on Logia's awakened abilities.

I think it's possible Doflamingo just didn't use Haki because he was essentially just messing around for the entire war. Doflamingo wanted the world to change (so that it burns, in the best case). So after stopping Oars jr. from reaching the scaffold and ending the war prematurely, he was just having fun. Doflamingo didn't kill Atmos either despite having full control over him.

However I think it is incredibly unlikely that Crocodile does not have Haki. Haki wasn't really introduced back then (only CoC was hinted at), and there was no need to showcase it with Crocodile as all of his attacks work on Luffy just fine without it: Logia moves, a hook, poison, a blade.

 

[hokageji]

No need, Crocodile is likely still stronger than post-ts Bellamy. Bellamy may have Haki, but his normal move strenght is just mediocre and his ultimate attack is complete bullshit. If he does it, Crocodile would just swirl him away with a sandstorm. Don't get me wrong, Bellamy has gotten very strong, but I can't see him tank a hit from Jozu and get up relatively unfazed

I think it is actually unfair to compare some of the pre vs post time skip characters plainly because Oda never planned to explain Haki at that point. With Crocodile, it was the scaling up the villain. Someone who controls a country, had the power to dethrone the king and yet, was a strong opponent in a strong land. Bellamy's only growth ahs to be Haki. What if Crocodile can use it too?

I think it's possible Doflamingo just didn't use Haki because he was essentially just messing around for the entire war

QUOTE] Thats the more likely explanation, but you never know with oda.

 

[King Moe]

How all this change away to talking about Vista and Mihawk now?

 

[Pirate Queen]

How all this change away to talking about Vista and Mihawk now?

lol. curious

 

[King Moe]

lol. curious

Guess everyone get distracted by something or someone to talk about something in wrong topics lol.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Guess everyone get distracted by something or someone to talk about something in wrong topics lol.

I went off on a tangent with M3J because I forgot what forum I was replying on and it was the Chapter discussion hahaha.

I'm pretty guilty of it as well

 

[King Moe]

I went off on a tangent with M3J because I forgot what forum I was replying on and it was the Chapter discussion hahaha.

I'm pretty guilty of it as well

Happens to the best of us XD.

 

[M3J]

It's the same thing as being the captain of a crew. While on theory the captain is not necessarily the strongest, that seems to be true in practically all cases. I presume a subordinate would challenge the captain/commander and get the position? It's only different with Ace/Blackbeard because they would allow someone else to lead.

It depends. Zoro could be stronger than Luffy but still not challenge him for the position, and Vista could be stronger and still not challenge Whitebeard out of love and respect.

In any case, members are annoying for dismissing Vista or saying that he'd lose to Mihawk without giving him a tough match.

How all this change away to talking about Vista and Mihawk now?

because we were initially talking about how division commander order didn't matter, and that Vista could be the captain of the 3958395th division and it still wouldn't make him weaker than Marco or Ace, captains of the first and second division respectively. People are using this excuse to claim that Vista can't beat Mihawk although Mihawk himself implied that Vista is powerful and a match for him. ANd to support that, neither seemed to have any advantage, and they had to give up their match so they could focus on their duties.

 

[King Moe]

It depends. Zoro could be stronger than Luffy but still not challenge him for the position, and Vista could be stronger and still not challenge Whitebeard out of love and respect.

In any case, members are annoying for dismissing Vista or saying that he'd lose to Mihawk without giving him a tough match.

because we were initially talking about how division commander order didn't matter, and that Vista could be the captain of the 3958395th division and it still wouldn't make him weaker than Marco or Ace, captains of the first and second division respectively. People are using this excuse to claim that Vista can't beat Mihawk although Mihawk himself implied that Vista is powerful and a match for him. ANd to support that, neither seemed to have any advantage, and they had to give up their match so they could focus on their duties.

Some Zoro fans try to assert that since they don't want to believe OP's logic especially when the characters admit it themselves. Knew they be triggered knowing Mihawk will be handled by someone like that.

 

[M3J]

What? Handled how? The fight was for the most part even...