Wangnan and Karaka origin

[shadow-v12]

So why did your first captain talk Dowon out of attacking Baam?

He just told her to not decide too quickly. Dowon realized that Baam is also the boy she was waiting for after it was mentioned he was from the outside.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 2, 2020 ---

I dont think that actually confirmed is it?

Its implied

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

So he wants to end Baam and has someone capable of doing so willing to attack him... But stops her to attack him another time? What's the reasoning in that?

I think it's implied they are one in the same based on the name (Boss/Captain), knowledge level (connected, awareness of Baam and the prophecy), and time introduced. There's no hints that they aren't the same people

 

[Echizen_Akira]

So he wants to end Baam and has someone capable of doing so willing to attack him... But stops her to attack him another time? What's the reasoning in that?

I think it's implied they are one in the same based on the name (Boss/Captain), knowledge level (connected, awareness of Baam and the prophecy), and time introduced. There's no hints that they aren't the same people

I would say the snake guy questioning whether or not they are the same person constitutes a hint.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I would say the snake guy questioning whether or not they are the same person constitutes a hint.

Which chapter was that?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 2, 2020 ---

Ah, nvm, 465. Snek is surprised at what he hears, so he wonders if the captain is who he's used to.

So, the 'captain' is introduced at the same time as the other captain, knows of the same prophecy of Baam, stays Dowon's hand, and even is juxtaposed with the literal one we see talking with both Cha and Dowon telling the SAME story but is somehow different?

Trying to find the reasoning that needs to be two different people.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Yeah, I'm not convinced myself, but I can at least understand why some people believe it. There is also the fact that Dowon's hand needed "staying" in the first place. It was the captain's words that lead to her attacking him and then also stopped her. You'd think Mr fate seer would get his desired result with 1 convo.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I see what you're saying. Although I think that Yool definitely checks the box for an 'untrustworthy narrator'. I mean, he even knows what he's going to say BEFORE he says it - then acts surprised after he says it. It was a.... comedic(?) effect. To me it (Yool's confusion) was showing two identities of the same person (one that had kept info from his subordinate Yool, one that seemed more open with information) rather than two persons for one identity. You have to think how these two people would both have to know all the same stuff and be aware of the same conversation that the 'true' Captain had with both Cha and Dowon in person, in confidence(?) many many years ago.

As far as the 'stay the hand' part - I'm not sure that the old Captain's words moved Dowon into attacking - it wasn't until she saw how her sister was treated that she became defeated and said 'fuck this, and fuck the guy that can disturb the peace...'. That and how her people didn't appreciate her actions. Otherwise she knew everything else before going on ice and the decision seemed to be gained from inheriting Canne's memories, not so much what was said to her at Genesis. One thing is for certain though - 'new' Captain (again, I think one and the same) kept her from aiding Kallavan at the wall. Kallavan could have had her join AND took Baam hostage or killed him if the 'new' Captain did absolutely nothing - yet he intervened. If he is a second person allied with Zahard and the goal is to depose of Baam then they could have crushed them all at the walls with Dowon's assistance and continued the assault on the other wall to completion of destroying the Cage. No need to kick the can down the road to the Nest battle. That action is nonsensical if the second (or same) Captain is allied with Zahard against Baam and FUG.

Another point is if there are two Captains - at what point did they switch with Yool (or so he only mildly suspects - hardly confirmed)? Because Yool was working to get Baam Jinsung's location (to HELP him) longgg before the Nest trap. I mean pre-Cage even. Talk about a convoluted long-game (to corner Baam at the Nest) if it was a new, different 'captain' back when Yool was introduced. And if the 'Captain' switched between before Yool even attacked Yihwa and when Yool arrived to stop Dowon then the message was still consistent - where Jinsung is being held. Yool simply didn't know that Baam was an irregular when he started the mission to join his group and 'attack' him.

IMO, the 'Captain' is like Tobi in the Narutoverse, and Yool for the first time is experiencing his devious side which gives him a mindfuck. The... mask slipped and he's coping with his disposableness?

But then you already know who I think the identity of the 'Captain' really is...

Another random thought though is perhaps the 'Captain' is a series of clones playing the same role with slightly different personalities, perspectives, and goals. But that seems needlessly complicated and difficult to pull off rather than the age-old alter-ego switcheroo.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Imho, each Prince of Jahad inherited bits of Jahad's true Power, same as children of other FHs have a partial ability of their FH.

As a matter of fact, maybe Jahad does have a family like any other FH does, but hides It to keep the 13 months tale and princess making story going. Their existence can't be known to keep the princess battle lie alive.

Why is that important tho is something only princess arc would enlighten.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2020 ---

Captain has Jahad's foresight, Karakka and Wangnan have Jahad's constitution. Its like Edwan has Ice, Thunder and Water Shinsoo, while each of his children get one of them.

 

[Siya101]

SIU way of writing is so annoying no matter how much you search, if he feels it's not time to reveal a secret: he won't. I remember the theories about bam and how jahad was his dad and we found it jahad killed the guy and if he doesn't want to give info he'll just drop bombshells after bombshell but without definite clue and you'll have to wait a loooooong time to find out. Think about it, there were theories about bam from the beginning and we only got a reveal seven years later only to find out that what we were told is only a fraction of his identity more waiting i guess. Wonder what reveal SIU will give about the princes, probably something we never expected and never thought about and when he does oh man

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Just hope SIU doesn't get hit by a bus or something before he finishes (20 years from now)

 

[Host Samurai]

Imho, each Prince of Jahad inherited bits of Jahad's true Power, same as children of other FHs have a partial ability of their FH.

As a matter of fact, maybe Jahad does have a family like any other FH does, but hides It to keep the 13 months tale and princess making story going. Their existence can't be known to keep the princess battle lie alive.

Why is that important tho is something only princess arc would enlighten.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2020 ---

Captain has Jahad's foresight, Karakka and Wangnan have Jahad's constitution. Its like Edwan has Ice, Thunder and Water Shinsoo, while each of his children get one of them.

I agree partially with you on this. While I agree that each Prince inherited bits of Zahards power there has to be more then that. I mean, I expect the princes to develop similar abilities to him (like A.A has the same shinsoo quality as Eduan). Just like I compared A.A with Eduan there is a fundamentally difference between being a direct descendent and a prince: A.A inherited the 'same' ability but he didn't inherit the 'ability' of immortality from Eduan. While in Zahard's and Wangnan's case: it's safe to say that the latter 'inherited' his immortality from Zahard. And this is what makes Wangnan, Karaka special compared to direct descendants of the FH's.

The princess arc definetly should enlighten us about the process of receiving Zahard's powers and the paradox of his bloodline. Reason being that I consider the princesses and the princes as different sides of the same coin. None of the princesses are blood related to him but received his strength on the other hand neither Wangnan or Karaka share the common trait of Zahard, which is his physical strength. The princesses represent: power and authority. They're in the limelight, being role models etc. and the princes are shunned, their existence is non-existent. So what do they represent? Weakness and opposite of authority, which can either be powerlessness (Wangnan), revolution (Karaka), freedom/adventure (The Boss).

 

[divica]

I agree partially with you on this. While I agree that each Prince inherited bits of Zahards power there has to be more then that. I mean, I expect the princes to develop similar abilities to him (like A.A has the same shinsoo quality as Eduan). Just like I compared A.A with Eduan there is a fundamentally difference between being a direct descendent and a prince: A.A inherited the 'same' ability but he didn't inherit the 'ability' of immortality from Eduan. While in Zahard's and Wangnan's case: it's safe to say that the latter 'inherited' his immortality from Zahard. And this is what makes Wangnan, Karaka special compared to direct descendants of the FH's.

The princess arc definetly should enlighten us about the process of receiving Zahard's powers and the paradox of his bloodline. Reason being that I consider the princesses and the princes as different sides of the same coin. None of the princesses are blood related to him but received his strength on the other hand neither Wangnan or Karaka share the common trait of Zahard, which is his physical strength. The princesses represent: power and authority. They're in the limelight, being role models etc. and the princes are shunned, their existence is non-existent. So what do they represent? Weakness and opposite of authority, which can either be powerlessness (Wangnan), revolution (Karaka), freedom/adventure (The Boss).

If you really think about it you will see it isn t true.
What wangnan has is immortality which isn t a trait of jahad but a consequence of his contract.
Just like the ability to manipulate fate that All family heads seem to have is probably a consequence of a contract or something intrinsic to being an irregular because no descendent seems to have that ability.

In adittion jahad can t have kids. Which looks like a curse and who do we know that was great with spells and was furious because jahad killed her newborn? I would bet that Arlene cursed jahad so that he can t have kids...

Another interesting thing is that the captain seems to have a mile near his mouth and wangnan near his eye and I think data jahad had no mole. So they can t be simply clones...

I like the theory that wangnan, karaka and the captains are aspects of jahad's personality that he discarded in order to become a king. That karaka sent wangnan to the captains so that they could train him on the abilities he inherited from jahad. That each of them has a mole in a different place in their face.

 

[Zahard's Prophet]

The idea that the Princes of Zahard represent his negative aspects as described by Host Samurai is very intriguing.

 

[EternalWinter]

The idea that the Princes of Zahard represent his negative aspects as described by Host Samurai is very intriguing.

he's hardly a hot bed of positive aspects at the moment

What if....there is no Zahad atm, and the three princes are the king split in 3

 

[Host Samurai]

If you really think about it you will see it isn t true.
What wangnan has is immortality which isn t a trait of jahad but a consequence of his contract.
Just like the ability to manipulate fate that All family heads seem to have is probably a consequence of a contract or something intrinsic to being an irregular because no descendent seems to have that ability.

In adittion jahad can t have kids. Which looks like a curse and who do we know that was great with spells and was furious because jahad killed her newborn? I would bet that Arlene cursed jahad so that he can t have kids...

Another interesting thing is that the captain seems to have a mile near his mouth and wangnan near his eye and I think data jahad had no mole. So they can t be simply clones...

I like the theory that wangnan, karaka and the captains are aspects of jahad's personality that he discarded in order to become a king. That karaka sent wangnan to the captains so that they could train him on the abilities he inherited from jahad. That each of them has a mole in a different place in their face.

How could a regular have the same contract of immortality then the King of the Tower? He can't make an immortality contract like Zahard as a reward for passing the guardian's test, which is exclusive for irregulars. Then if it's a consequence of Zahard's contract tell me, why aren't the other direct descendants of the 10 Families immortal? They could have very well inherited it too. You see just because no descendent has the ability to see fate doesn't make it an ability exclusive for irregulars. Does it make Khell Hellam an irregular too because he has the ability to see fate itself too?

It's implied that the whole Zahard can't have kids is a ploy for him not to get married.

 

[divica]

How could a regular have the same contract of immortality then the King of the Tower? He can't make an immortality contract like Zahard as a reward for passing the guardian's test, which is exclusive for irregulars. Then if it's a consequence of Zahard's contract tell me, why aren't the other direct descendants of the 10 Families immortal? They could have very well inherited it too. You see just because no descendent has the ability to see fate doesn't make it an ability exclusive for irregulars. Does it make Khell Hellam an irregular too because he has the ability to see fate itself too?

It's implied that the whole Zahard can't have kids is a ploy for him not to get married.

You are confused. First, the descendentes of the 10 famillies don t have the same powers as wangnan, karaka or the captains because wangnan and company aren t descendents of jahad. They are clones/other versions of himself.

We had beta attacking wangnan's heart and he survived. That isn t normal! Karaka is also implied to be imortal and hides his face (probably because people would see he looks like jahad). We have captains with jahad's ability to see and manipulate fate (the captains are much better than khell or the guide).

And I never said he made a contract for his imortality. He was born with it due to the fact that he is a lesser version of jahad. So some of jahad's contracts are applied to him.

And khell is the one that says that the ability of the 10FH to manipulate fate is much superior to his, like the the captains ability seems to be.


Edit wangnan even was transported to jahad in the hidden floor.
For example AA was transported to a normal place

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

If you really think about it you will see it isn t true.
What wangnan has is immortality which isn t a trait of jahad but a consequence of his contract.
Just like the ability to manipulate fate that All family heads seem to have is probably a consequence of a contract or something intrinsic to being an irregular because no descendent seems to have that ability.

In adittion jahad can t have kids. Which looks like a curse and who do we know that was great with spells and was furious because jahad killed her newborn? I would bet that Arlene cursed jahad so that he can t have kids...

Another interesting thing is that the captain seems to have a mile near his mouth and wangnan near his eye and I think data jahad had no mole. So they can t be simply clones...

I like the theory that wangnan, karaka and the captains are aspects of jahad's personality that he discarded in order to become a king. That karaka sent wangnan to the captains so that they could train him on the abilities he inherited from jahad. That each of them has a mole in a different place in their face.

Moles are no reason to think they aren't clones lol.

Twins (genetic clones) can and do have moles in different location. Moles are happenstance, like zits, and aren't a genetic trait. Look it up.




The moles indicate it's not the same person (not that they aren't clones). i.e., SIU says the captain looks just like Wangnan or a young Zahard, but the mole indicates he isn't either of those two bc neither have a mole in that location. Nevertheless THEY LOOK THE SAME. Even SIU says this.

In the sense that moles are used to distinguish apart people that look the exact same - moles are in indication of being clones more than an indication against it.

 

[divica]

Moles are no reason to think they aren't clones lol.

Twins (genetic clones) can and do have moles in different location. Moles are happenstance, like zits, and aren't a genetic trait. Look it up.




The moles indicate it's not the same person. i.e., SIU says the captain looks just like Wangnan or a young Zahard, but the mole indicates he isn't either of those two bc neither have a mole in that location. Nevertheless THEY LOOK THE SAME. Even SIU says this.

It is weird for each clone to have a mole in a different place.

I agree they are some kind of copy of jahad, but it can t be simply genetic cloning. I can t imagine a genetic reason for a mole to appear in different locations in each clone...

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

It is weird for each clone to have a mole in a different place.

I agree they are some kind of copy of jahad, but it can t be simply genetic cloning. I can t imagine a genetic reason for a mole to appear in different locations in each clone...

I don't mean this rudely - but it's clear you didn't understand my last post nor research what I had suggested. It really doesn't matter if you think it's not (genetically) feasible, because it is. Moles are not a genetic concern in their location (generally speaking), so there is no need for a genetic justification they have different moles in different locations.

Twins ARE genetic clones, so the following applies:

Why Identical Twins Aren’t Really Identical

Is our behavior determined by genetics, or are we products of our environments? What matters more for the development of living things—internal factors...

slate.com

"But are nature and nurture the whole story? It seems not. Even identical twins brought up in similar environments won’t really be identical. They won’t have the same fingerprints. They’ll have different freckles and moles. Even complex traits such as intelligence and mental illness often vary between identical twins..." (bold emphasis added)

Or

Do identical twins have moles and freckles in the same spots?

Answer (1 of 6): Most definitly not. I am an identical twin and my sister and I didn’t have moles/freckles etc in the same spots. Much of the physical happens after birth related to the environment more so than genetics. Although we looked very much alike my face wasn’t quite as round as hers was...

www.quora.com

Or

About twins – Twins Research Australia

www.twins.org.au

etc.


The usage of moles is actually very clever by SIU. If, sans mole, someone showed up looking *exactly* like a young Zahard or Wangnan, there would be speculation they are in fact the same person as opposed to a separate person that simply looks identical. Just like a clone would.

So by using a mole we know Wangnan is not the Captain is not Zahard, even though they are built the same.

Clones created or born after Zahard and his tower entrance would of course look younger as well. Like data Z, referenced by SIU in his blog.

 

[Host Samurai]

You are confused. First, the descendentes of the 10 famillies don t have the same powers as wangnan, karaka or the captains because wangnan and company aren t descendents of jahad. They are clones/other versions of himself.

We had beta attacking wangnan's heart and he survived. That isn t normal! Karaka is also implied to be imortal and hides his face (probably because people would see he looks like jahad). We have captains with jahad's ability to see and manipulate fate (the captains are much better than khell or the guide).

And I never said he made a contract for his imortality. He was born with it due to the fact that he is a lesser version of jahad. So some of jahad's contracts are applied to him.

And khell is the one that says that the ability of the 10FH to manipulate fate is much superior to his, like the the captains ability seems to be.


Edit wangnan even was transported to jahad in the hidden floor.
For example AA was transported to a normal place

I think you didn’t understand what I said, I never said that the direct descendants of the FH should but could have inherited that fate-seeing ability. You made it seem like that fate seeing ability is exclusive to irregulars. That’s why I brought it up that the ability is comparable to a talent/ affinity. And that it isn’t far-fetched to assume that the “Boss” might have “inherited” it due to his bloodline. Since we don’t know what exactly the princes are yet.

I’m fully aware that each family have different affinities talent wise. And that fate seeing ability is an ability that Zahard developed while climbing the tower it’s not tied to any contract. SIU confirmed it that Zahard developed it before finishing the Hell train hence that’s, why he got the mirror in the hidden floor.

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-264/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=345

I know that AA was transported to a “regular zone” in the hidden floor, whereas Wangnan was in the King’s Cradle. You know what a cradle is, right? Further implying their blood relation.

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-229/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=310

 

[Ripcord]

Imho, each Prince of Jahad inherited bits of Jahad's true Power, same as children of other FHs have a partial ability of their FH.

As a matter of fact, maybe Jahad does have a family like any other FH does, but hides It to keep the 13 months tale and princess making story going. Their existence can't be known to keep the princess battle lie alive.

Why is that important tho is something only princess arc would enlighten.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2020 ---

Captain has Jahad's foresight, Karakka and Wangnan have Jahad's constitution. Its like Edwan has Ice, Thunder and Water Shinsoo, while each of his children get one of them.

I disagree. Hwaryun mentioned Wangnan was related to the biggest mistake by Zahard and the 10 families. If the captain is a part of that then I am sure that the 10 family heads are well aware of their existence.

My guess is that they are all pieces of Zahard’s humanity that he cast aside to become king. Wangnan is his sense of adventure or something like that.