Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[jorped]

i just started reading manga 2 years ago and Naruto was the only one that i read until the beginning of this year , i like a lot the battles of Naruto cuz these battles isn't all about power but also about strategies , but the reason more important was also because Kishi managed to make me like of the world of Naruto. The all story is pretty interesting , at least for me , and when some thinks happen i can understand, and i like the way that Kishi shows very well the emotions of each character so it turns easy to understand their actions.
The problem of Bleach , in my point of view, is that it seems a bit rushed and at some points a bit development on the plot wouldn't have been a bad think. We know almost nothing about each character, but we are forced to believe that their friendship is strong to the point that they risk their lives without second thoughts.
And also one of the character that is supposed for the fans to like , each is Urahara gave them away of going to soul society and after to hueco mundo when if this story went for the logical way neither of those times they would have survived, how is it possible for a young shinigami being able to defeat shinigamis that have been training for more than 1 hundred years?? and how is it that some of them during more than 100 years only managed to get their power to a certain level but in about some days managed to use bankai and stuff like that ? oO

From what i saw of Bleach it had much more potential if the relationships between the characters was better well done , .......... of what i read i like of Aizen character and Gin, and i was expecting much more of Urahara , that is somehow someone that the fans are supposed to like, at the first time i saw, i was expecting more of him, i thought when i saw his appearance he would be like Kakashi for Naruto , ....
Bleach potential was huge but only some amazing and restrict group of people are able to fully utilize the potential of ideas. I don't think Bleach is bad or something like that , i only was expecting more of it , because i thought that it would be a bit worse than Naruto and One Piece but still pretty good , and by what i read i cant see why it was ever able of compete with them


I have read Magico three chapters and it was interesting , so i kinda hope that it doesn't get canceled although it is still soon to speak about this

 

[ZayCon]

Why hasn't Takeshi Obata (Bakuman), Hideaki Sorachi (Gintama), Katsutoshi Murase (Dois Soil), Hiroshi Shiibashi (Nurarihyon no Mago), Akira Akatsuki (Medaka Box) and Kouhei Horikoshi (Omagadoki Zoo) made a drawing too?

Would be cool to see one from Obata and Sorachi.

 

[perroloco]

I am pretty sure that there is a 3rd row of drawings along with a Masashi Kishimoto (Naruto) that will come tomorrow.

 

[Kaiten]

are there really chapter that could do that? besides gintama/bakuman/toriko aren't any others series in the top 3, even when the chapters are extemely good.

isn't it stupid to do so many battle mangas, when the top3 and others like toriko are enough already? wouldn't it be more popular/successful to do alternate mangas like bakuman/enigma, because of the lesser competition? Maybe jump don't get many good names for other genre...

Jump has more of a focus group feel than other magazines. It's a lot like an American movie studio, if something works try to repeat the formula. With the massive success of One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, and Hunter x Hunter the editors are more willing to approve new action titles. At the same time other traditional shonen genres have struggled; sports, comedy, and harem have struggled over the last few years. That's not to say it makes sense but that's the way they do things. They have to be doing something right, circulation is rising while everyone else is falling.

 

[jorped]

I am pretty sure that there is a 3rd row of drawings along with a Masashi Kishimoto (Naruto) that will come tomorrow.

hope so have been waiting to see Kishi draw.
I was talking about how bleach disappointed me , but i have to say that Kuro did an amazing work on his draw , without any text but the movement of Ichigo and his pose is enough to understand the message that Kuro is trying to send

 

[perroloco]

jorped wrote:
Kubo did an amazing work on his draw , without any text but the movement of Ichigo and his pose is enough to understand the message that Kuro is trying to send

And that's pretty much what BLEACH is about. Cool poses, no text.

 

[jorped]

ya that is true, but on this case i totally understand Kuro and think he did an amazing job , and this draw has for me even greater impact than the others that have some lines , saying to don't give up ,......
That image was enough to get that

 

[Finestela]

You just can't satisfy everyone. Whenever there are discussions regarding Bleach's pace, it's always "this is rushed" or "that is dragging"... But what in the world does Kubo have to do to make the pace "just right"?

A lot of people would point out the SS arc makes it just right, but, as a long time Bleach follower, SS was the first time I stopped following it regularly, because it was moving too slow for my taste to follow it weekly. I didn't go back to follow it weekly until after the end of SS arc.

Pace is just a matter of preference.

As for the reason why there are so many battle manga in WSJ... It's because WSJ weighs certain demography (the grade schooler up to junior high schooler, especially the boys) more than others. So in order to become successful, you have to either go Unique (to establish yourself a base, something really hard to do) or go Battle (and compete for weighed votes).

Medaka Box tried to be unique, but failed because the plot was similar to that of Sket Dance, and Nishio's "joke", while works great in Light Novels, just doesn't really garner much laughter. So it moved into Battle, and has been stuck as Reborn lite, holding on the loyal Nishio-Believer votes while improving a bit on good chapters.

Something the other new comers doesn't have the luxury of doing.

---

At the same time other traditional shonen genres have struggled; sports, comedy, and harem have struggled over the last few years. That's not to say it makes sense but that's the way they do things. They have to be doing something right, circulation is rising while everyone else is falling.

Artificial struggle or actual struggle?

The fact is WSJ weighs certain votes more so than other ones, and that, by itself, makes it favorable for battle manga than anything else. That caused a lot of decent sales series to rank low (because the main demography isn't the one weighed by the WSJ editor) on the ToC and series with "meh" sales series to rank high.

And don't get me started on the unabashed pimping of certain series...

 

[frenzypix]

jorped
Mmm Its KUBO, Kubo-sensei for us as a huge Bleach fan the only thing that I can say to you is that if you don't like Bleach now, you should stop reading it. Or just think this, Bleach is Bleach, and you'll have a much better time reading it

Sorry for my bad english.

 

[Finestela]

Why hasn't Takeshi Obata (Bakuman), Hideaki Sorachi (Gintama), Katsutoshi Murase (Dois Soil), Hiroshi Shiibashi (Nurarihyon no Mago), Akira Akatsuki (Medaka Box) and Kouhei Horikoshi (Omagadoki Zoo) made a drawing too?

Would be cool to see one from Obata and Sorachi.

It'll come when they're finished.

Every author has his/her own working pace, and some of them can barely make the weekly deadline, let alone finding the time to draw an illustration.

I mean instead of the other authors, why not mention Kubo? If Kubo has so much time on his hand to RT every single thing he hears on twitter, shouldn't he be drawing more illustrations instead? :P

---

jorped
Mmm Its KUBO, Kubo-sensei for us as a huge Bleach fan the only thing that I can say to you is that if you don't like Bleach now, you should stop reading it. Or just think this, Bleach is Bleach, and you'll have a much better time reading it

Sorry for my bad english.

I agree this one fully. If you don't like the pace of a certain manga (that you used to enjoy), then you should just stop following it weekly, and pick it up maybe every 2 months or so.

 

[Asgaroth]

... Bleach ...

yeah i think kuboto is a amazing artist. most of his characters are unique and appeling, such as orihime and ulquiorra. even the persepctives are quite cool. every week i'm thrilled to see how he implement the chapter numbers/names. to keep it simple - bleach it's stylish.

That's not to say it makes sense but that's the way they do things. They have to be doing something right, circulation is rising while everyone else is falling.

yeah i don't know about the mind of some 13 years old japanese kidz, but for me it would be boring. when i read 5 battle mangas (like the top 3 + more) would i really buy more of the same stuff again? ...... apparently they do

So in order to become successful, you have to either go Unique (to establish yourself a base, something really hard to do) or go Battle (and compete for weighed votes).

yeah, truly disappointing that only battle and unique miracles are successful. romance, harem, sport and so on can also be good, but for such series you must buy other magazines.

Medaka Box tried to be unique, but failed because the plot was similar to that of Sket Dance, and Nishio's "joke", while works great in Light Novels, just doesn't really garner much laughter. So it moved into Battle, and has been stuck as Reborn lite, holding on the loyal Nishio-Believer votes while improving a bit on good chapters.

i think nishio got so much creativity and his work output is insane. whatever you think about the pace of the story or the gerne shift, but the abilitys of the characters are quite unique for a battle manga.

The fact is WSJ weighs certain votes more so than other ones, and that, by itself, makes it favorable for battle manga than anything else. That caused a lot of decent sales series to rank low (because the main demography isn't the one weighed by the WSJ editor) on the ToC and series with "meh" sales series to rank high.

And don't get me started on the unabashed pimping of certain series...

i don't know anything about their production costs or why a big magazine like jump costs only a few bucks. but wouldn't it be easier and better to give every manga colour for the first page each chapter? or is it important to let some manga's seem to be better than other to pimp it with more colour pages than usual. something likes sacrifes to let other seem more important and succesful as they really are.

 

[Finestela]

Nishio's creativity and play on words works GREAT in light novels (and yes, I read his work and do own the entire Monogatari series), but word gag and battle just doesn't work when putting them at the same time in manga, especially in a weekly manga. Gintama works because the battle chapters/arcs has little to no major gag, while the gag/funny chapters contains almost zero battle. Nishio tries to do both at the same time, and his effort on the word plays has gone unoticed unless by those that are really looking for them/gets them.

Regarding the production cost for WSJ, it's more of a breaking-even/promotion for tanks kind of investment, which, begs the question, why are they punishing series with good tank sales by implementing the unfair and unrealistic weighing of votes from certain demographies.

While I love Psyren, I can never understand why the editors at WSJ continues to pimp it when both the tank sales and actual popularity are in a question mark. Same goes for Toriko. Bakuman owns Toriko in tank sales by a huge margin, but the average overall ranking is A LOT lower than Toriko (2~3 places last time I check). Toriko barely beats TLRD in week 1, with TLRD being handicapped by the limited first print. That's worthy of the #4 WSJ spot?

 

[come come paradise]

i don't know anything about their production costs or why a big magazine like jump costs only a few bucks. but wouldn't it be easier and better to give every manga colour for the first page each chapter? or is it important to let some manga's seem to be better than other to pimp it with more colour pages than usual. something likes sacrifes to let other seem more important and succesful as they really are.

Drawing 20 b&w pages a week is hard enough work, you don't want to give the authors a colour page to work on each week on top of that? ^^"
Besides, imo the colour pages aren't that important for featuring a series, they're more like a treat for those who are already following it (except if the colour pages are exceptionally stunning, I guess). Cover and ToC order are much more important, and those are things that can't be given to every author in every issue, for obvious reasons.

Anyway, we're going down the "why is Jump so competitive?!" road once again and there's just no point discussing that for the 1000th time. Jump is harsh with newcomers and unfairly value some titles, that's just the way it is.

As for the comments above, please stop with the Kubo bashing, we've gotten enough of that already Some people don't mind if it's illogical or if the plot is stretched or if the pacing is slow. I know I follow it because to me it stands out on a graphical point of view. Other people will have other reasons. No need to ask why certain series are liked even if they're not to your tastes (and vice-versa), people just don't have the same tastes. This said, Bleach being considered part of the Big 3 is due to other reasons than simple series quality, namely the massive pimpage it gets. Again, that's just the way things are.

 

[Finestela]

Competitive is one thing, but why weigh the votes? When we have an election, should we weigh a certain group of people because their voice is supposedly valued more?

And why the out of no where promotion? If a manga isn't doing as good as it should, then why create the illusion of it's doing great? If WSJ editors want to use pimiping as a way to save a series, then why not do it to series that's really in danger?

That's my biggest beef. The playing field is not leveled.

 

[Asgaroth]

Anyway, we're going down the "why is Jump so competitive?!" road once again and there's just no point discussing that for the 1000th time. Jump is harsh with newcomers and unfairly value some titles, that's just the way it is.

i'm sorry to start this with my theory, but couldn't help to post it :-P

when starts the next cancelation rounds, because last time it was only psyren right? perhaps when the newest series is around 20 chapters? or isn't it a usual time issue and more an issue about how bad the tank sales of the new ones are and how many new good names for serialization they got left?

 

[ruggia]

when starts the next cancelation rounds, because last time it was only psyren right? perhaps when the newest series is around 20 chapters? or isn't it a usual time issue and more an issue about how bad the tank sales of the new ones are and how many new good names for serialization they got left?

Well, technically Light Wing was the latest cancellation, (which happened couple weeks after Psyren) but no one really cared about Light Wing, so :P

Cancellation season comes around usually after new series reach 8 chapters, so we still got about 4 weeks left for the next one...

With the current situation in Japan, it really sucks for anyone to get axed (basically, unemployed)

 

[Finestela]

Well, technically Light Wing was the latest cancellation, (which happened couple weeks after Psyren) but no one really cared about Light Wing, so :P

Cancellation season comes around usually after new series reach 8 chapters, so we still got about 4 weeks left for the next one...

With the current situation in Japan, it really sucks for anyone to get axed (basically, unemployed)

They're probably going to postpone the next round, or at least that's the chatter that's been going on at 2ch.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

Competitive is one thing, but why weigh the votes? When we have an election, should we weigh a certain group of people because their voice is supposedly valued more?

And why the out of no where promotion? If a manga isn't doing as good as it should, then why create the illusion of it's doing great? If WSJ editors want to use pimiping as a way to save a series, then why not do it to series that's really in danger?

That's my biggest beef. The playing field is not leveled.

Wow. I had no idea this is how Jump worked. Although I dislike the whole TOC system anyway, since no matter how much a series struggles (or how much it rocks//does not rock), there's always gotta be something on the bottom, and that usually translates to the misconception that it's not good.

But as for the uneven playing field, that is some bull plop. Although honestly, I like Toriko more than Bakuman. ^^;;

Gintama works because the battle chapters/arcs has little to no major gag, while the gag/funny chapters contains almost zero battle. Nishio tries to do both at the same time, and his effort on the word plays has gone unoticed unless by those that are really looking for them/gets them.

This. Although (Japanese) people seem to prefer Gintama gag chapters to the serious ones. (Always a curiosity to me how overseas this is the exact opposite.) Gintama has wordplay too, but I guess they're more juvenile? (Although the banter between Gintama characters is just as good as Nishio's.) I guess it helps that Sorachi's just really good at turning irrelevance into humor/serious business.

 

[R4n]

Of course I agree that plot is far more important than battles, BUT kids and teenagers disagree. When I was 13 or so, the battles were what I wanted to see and looked forward to. That's why the most popular manga are battle manga.

So true. When i was 10 years old Dragonball was my absolute favourite manga. Now i find it boring... *cough* ^^;;;

 

[perroloco]

Wow. I had no idea this is how Jump worked. Although I dislike the whole TOC system anyway, since no matter how much a series struggles (or how much it rocks//does not rock), there's always gotta be something on the bottom, and that usually translates to the misconception that it's not good.

Yeah, but at the same time this system has been working for JUMP; I mean its the only weekly magazine that has been rising in circulation, yeah it had a BIG slip post-Dragon Ball, but at least now the circulation is at stable numbers and rising a little, unlike its competitors that are slowly droping in circulation numbers.
As for a manga always struggling, well, if it doesn´t do well it was bound to fail anyway, or at least not to be as good of a seller as other manga that did better in the TOC. Of course there have been weird cases like the manga in ruggia´s avatar (Which name escapes me right now) that was an interesting manga, which IRC was ok in the TOC..