Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2015] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Jaimini626]

I think the most recent example is Tokyo Ghoul I dont think its first volume woluld have sold as much as it did , if it were not for the Edited Mangas.

 

[Unok]

Tokyo Ghoul sold that much and became that popular due to the anime, not due to the Edited Mangas.

 

[SharkBait]

Tokyo Ghoul sold that much and became that popular due to the anime, not due to the Edited Mangas.

Yeah Im quite sure the anime had more of an effect on increasing awareness of Tokyo Ghoul than the scans did, wasnt the manga already over by the time the anime even started and it was still a niche series.

Though in jumps case, I also think Assassination Classroom anime was more effective at making people interested in it than the scans, since it seems v1 has stayed on the NYT bestsellers list here for 16 weeks which corresponds to the time the anime started.

 

[Unok]

The manga ended with the anime first season. But Edited Mangas were up to date. Another fact: I'm on it's wiki and before the anime, the wiki was getting like less than 20-30k weekly views. While around the end of the anime it was getting over 1.4 million weekly views.

An anime will always bring more attention than any Edited Mangas.

 

[Stark700]

Yeah... NO.
I did Wagatsuma back then, and it became sorta popular. Suddenly Kodansha/crunchyroll picked it up all of a sudden. Now, most series that get licensed in the States are either (1) from a popular author (2) had an anime adaptation or (3) really popular in japan.

Sadly to say, Wagatsuma aren't either of those. Why would they pick up a manga that's full of 2ch references and mostly gag (which americans hate)?

Wagatsuma was from the original batch that CR did with a joint effort from Kodansha Japan, more so than US. Not to mention that CR goes after manga licenses for literally anything they can get their hands on, that's why they would pick it up.

---------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 AM ----------

please don't try to tell me that they don't make decisions based on what's popular online....that's just a ludicrous assertion. Online, English-speaking fandoms who read Edited Mangas are the reason so many series get licensed in the first place.

Publishers make decisions based on Edited Mangas – False. Everyone was in agreement that the idea that publishers track what is popular on Edited Manga websites as a gauge for what should be licensed and published next is completely erroneous.

You twist their words there, they never said they don't make decisions based on what's popular online. They're saying they don't go to mangareader and start licensing the top trending manga of the day.

 

[piau9000]

This talk about "Edited Manga hurts sales" is so old and has been used so many times that, if it were true, the industry would've already been bankrupt by 2013...

 

[SharkBait]

Wow Best BLue chapter was so intense. Much different than what I was expecting but still phenomenal. Cant wait for more of the cast. Red hair.

 

[Stark700]

This talk about "Edited Manga hurts sales" is so old and has been used so many times that, if it were true, the industry would've already been bankrupt by 2013...

But they didn't say Edited Mangas are bankrupting them. They said that Edited Mangas are reducing their sales. The presence of a free alternative will turn some paying customers away, but there will be those who will still buy. You can never get exact numbers, but they're saying they're selling less than they could be.

I know quite a few people who refuse to pay for a $1 issue of Jump, in real life. These are the people they're talking about. They are not talking about going bankrupt, lol.

 

[Drmke]

What's bankrupting them is people just don't buy a lot of manga on this side of the ocean, even those that read Edited Mangas. I don't know why, but even before Edited Mangas where a big deal, people still didn't buy manga in physical form. Maybe they hurt digital sales...but only because people already had scans before official online manga came about.

Also, VIZ killed most of the competition.

 

[conankudo]

Since One Piece is getting Lead Colour (cover will feature Jump All Stars) in double issue #37-38 (Obon) we can assume Oda might take a break in issue #35 or #36. He even mentions in the comment that squeezing monimlas during work is letting him fall behind schedule.

By the way, Oda's comment is about these monimals

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 PM ----------

I don't think Edited Mangas by itself are the problem but the profit driven aggregator sites which most of the so called manga fans are using. Anyways, since most of the pople here are scan readers or Manga Editors I don't believe there is a constructive discussion possible

 

[DoctorApollo]

I don't know that they can really argue that Edited Mangas hurt the sales.

Such a large percentage of western readers of manga read Edited Mangas, that it makes you wonder if the manga audience as a whole would be a few orders of magnitude smaller if Edited Mangas didn't exist.

The biggest reasons westerners turn to manga over anime is speed, because they want to keep up with the story. Considering that until very recently, it was rare for the English versions of manga to be released before the equivalent anime episodes, I can only imagine there would be a lot less manga readers.

(all of this being said, I understand that reading Edited Mangas is effectively stealing intellectual property and I'm not going to condone it or anything. I just think that their effect on the industry is large and nuanced, and I don't trust whoever claims it's a definite bad effect. Especially not when they follow it up with "we don't look online to see what's popular", because they're either 1) lying or 2) absolute idiots with no understanding of business.)

I don't think Edited Mangas by itself are the problem but the profit driven aggregator sites

What do they do exactly that's worse? They're just making money off of it.

The money isn't getting to the mangaka anyway, whether it goes to aggregators or to no one is irrelevant to the equation. Unless you're arguing that the business incentive of aggregator sites makes the Edited Manga community much larger than it would otherwise be, which could be true, but that's also a very nuanced effect that's hard to judge accurately.

 

[piau9000]

But they didn't say Edited Mangas are bankrupting them. They said that Edited Mangas are reducing their sales. The presence of a free alternative will turn some paying customers away, but there will be those who will still buy. You can never get exact numbers, but they're saying they're selling less than they could be.

I know quite a few people who refuse to pay for a $1 issue of Jump, in real life. These are the people they're talking about. They are not talking about going bankrupt, lol.

In this case no, but most of the time they do.
In Brazil for example they do it all the time.
They may be losing some sales, but it's not as bad as they say.

The amount of people that don't pay because they don't want to is always minimal.
The large majority of pirates are people that don't have money or access to.
You can deal with the access problem by creating a fair system like Netflix. But there's nothing you can do to "fix" the money problem.
In some countries, a 200 pages tanko cost 5/6 times of what it cost in Japan. Most of these countries are third world countries where the money is already a problem.
These should not be considered a lost sale as they are not potential buyers per se.

This apply not only manga but to music, movies, etc...
The way that the industry deals with it is in the most draconian way possible.
They tend to alienate their fanbase by saying that they're at the brink of bankrupt and that all pirates are mean and bad.
But their sales is always growing so it's not true.

Anyway, in my opinion, the whole "licencing" thing is rotten.
The publisher should release it in english themselves. The price would drop and the access would be better (if they release it in a digital way).

 

[Stark700]

I don't know that they can really argue that Edited Mangas hurt the sales.

Such a large percentage of western readers of manga read Edited Mangas, that it makes you wonder if the manga audience as a whole would be a few orders of magnitude smaller if Edited Mangas didn't exist.

The biggest reasons westerners turn to manga over anime is speed, because they want to keep up with the story. Considering that until very recently, it was rare for the English versions of manga to be released before the equivalent anime episodes, I can only imagine there would be a lot less manga readers.

(all of this being said, I understand that reading Edited Mangas is effectively stealing intellectual property and I'm not going to condone it or anything. I just think that their effect on the industry is large and nuanced, and I don't trust whoever claims it's a definite bad effect. Especially not when they follow it up with "we don't look online to see what's popular", because they're either 1) lying or 2) absolute idiots with no understanding of business.)

That was misquoted. They said they don't look at sites like mangareader to make licensing decisions. They didn't say they don't look online.

The perspective about scans hurting their business is like I mentioned earlier, those people who have access to and can buy Jump for $1, but choose not to. This is not limited to Jump, but a lot of different manga. I have a lot of friends that just read off of aggregator sites, when they could buy them.

These people aren't exactly dirt poor, mind you.

---------- Post added at 09:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------

In this case no, but most of the time they do.
In Brazil for example they do it all the time.
They may be losing some sales, but it's not as bad as they say.

The amount of people that don't pay because they don't want to is always minimal.
The large majority of pirates are people that don't have money or access to.
You can deal with the access problem by creating a fair system like Netflix. But there's nothing you can do to "fix" the money problem.
In some countries, a 200 pages tanko cost 5/6 times of what it cost in Japan. Most of these countries are third world countries where the money is already a problem.
These should not be considered a lost sale as they are not potential buyers per se.

This apply not only manga but to music, movies, etc...
The way that the industry deals with it is in the most draconian way possible.
They tend to alienate their fanbase by saying that they're at the brink of bankrupt and that all pirates are mean and bad.
But their sales is always growing so it's not true.

Anyway, in my opinion, the whole "licencing" thing is rotten.
The publisher should release it in english themselves. The price would drop and the access would be better (if they release it in a digital way).

I'm speaking from the perspective of an American with access to legal alternatives, speaking of Americans with the same status. Talking about the Americans who will not put forth a penny for volume or an issue of digital Jump.

Sales are growing, but manga and anime are still regarded as a niche here.
And no, cite actual articles of them saying they are on the verge of going bankrupt. No US publisher has claimed within the past few years that they are on the verge of filing for bankruptcy or that their sales were that drastically impacted by piracy.

Like I said, they were merely saying that scans were reducing their sales, but not in this grand way you're claiming.


Licensing works like that. Limited territories and whatnot. Contracts have been complicated like that for a while. Sucks, but that's kinda how it is. I'd also opt for the publisher doing without a middle man.

 

[conankudo]

What do they do exactly that's worse? They're just making money off of it.

Aggregator sites are convenient and easily to access especially in times of tablets and phone apps. Giving the people the opportunity to access manga in the most convinent way for free is destryoing the market. Only a few readers are caring for consistency and "better" translations and are willing to pay for it - and it is a legit reason I can comprehend. Just have a look at the simulpup releases of CrunchyRoll - a lot of people don't know about the free content on CR and are still reading shitty scans eg. of Fairy Fail respectively are visting aggregator sites that are re-hosting the official releases in an inferior quality. Since a third party is trying to get money out of this and is giving a damn about the artits not only the quality of scans is getting worse (filtered images, mangapanda's cleaning and translation for some titles) but also a lot of people are thinking nowadays these sites are official (no kidding). Im missing the times when you had do visit an IRC channel to get a chapter.

 

[xi0]

You twist their words there, they never said they don't make decisions based on what's popular online. They're saying they don't go to mangareader and start licensing the top trending manga of the day.

Then how do they know what's popular online? Why are certain things popular online? Regardless of whether they're actually browsing aggregators regularly or not, they still make licensing decisions based on popularity, and the popularity exists due to online communities of Manga Editors. And yes, the popularity is much larger due to these sites, despite them probably being the main culprit for cutting into their profits.

We've probably gotten to the point with Viz specifically, that they can gauge public interest through their own sites and they do end up licensing a decent amount of series right from the beginning. But prior to this who can say?

 

[piau9000]

I'm speaking from the perspective of an American with access to legal alternatives, speaking of Americans with the same status. Talking about the Americans who will not put forth a penny for volume or an issue of digital Jump.

Sales are growing, but manga and anime are still regarded as a niche here.
And no, cite actual articles of them saying they are on the verge of going bankrupt. No US publisher has claimed within the past few years that they are on the verge of filing for bankruptcy or that their sales were that drastically impacted by piracy.

Like I said, they were merely saying that scans were reducing their sales, but not in this grand way you're claiming.


Licensing works like that. Limited territories and whatnot. Contracts have been complicated like that for a while. Sucks, but that's kinda how it is. I'd also opt for the publisher doing without a middle man.

http://manga-anime-here.com/guardians
https://mangahelpers.com/forum/show...ga-Anime-Guardians-Launched-To-Thwart-Piracy?

It's a project created by the japanese publishers, with the support of english publishers.
They don't say that they're going bankrupt, but they are exaggerating it.
100% of these "piracy research" are financed by the industry.

 

[DoctorApollo]

That was misquoted. They said they don't look at sites like mangareader to make licensing decisions. They didn't say they don't look online.

That's still either a lie or totally stupid. Why wouldn't they make licensing decisions based on the manga that westerners read the most? Do they not like money or something?

The perspective about scans hurting their business is like I mentioned earlier, those people who have access to and can buy Jump for $1, but choose not to. This is not limited to Jump, but a lot of different manga. I have a lot of friends that just read off of aggregator sites, when they could buy them.

These people aren't exactly dirt poor, mind you.

Again, I can understand that the existence of scans NOW give an option to many manga readers, and hurt some sales.

My argument is that in the first place there would not be so many manga readers if it wasn't for scans. I, for one, was never one to buy comic books while growing up. I don't know if I would have ever even discovered manga if it wasn't for Edited Mangas. I started out reading Edited Mangas, and now I pay for the manga I like. I think a lot of other people are the same.

Not to mention that without the Edited Mangas (and subs, etc, the whole shebang of illegal online distribution) the fanbases for many series would be super small. The success of stuff like video games based on anime is largely thanks to the huge audience developed by illegal distribution.

That's why I'm saying you can't really understand the effect. It's complicated and nuanced. There's many factors. Edited Mangas helped the manga industry in many ways, and hurt it in many ways. It would take a lot of research (and peeks into alternate realities) in order to understand whether the manga industry as a whole would be better with or without Edited Mangas. I just think it's a very tough claim for them to make.

 

[Stark700]

http://manga-anime-here.com/guardians
https://mangahelpers.com/forum/show...ga-Anime-Guardians-Launched-To-Thwart-Piracy?

It's a project created by the japanese publishers, with the support of english publishers.
They don't say that they're going bankrupt, but they are exaggerating it.
100% of these "piracy research" are financed by the industry.

Again, there are no claims of anyone saying they're going bankrupt because of piracy. Even in panels, they do not claim they're losing massive amounts of money either. Those stats are probably true, but it's probably accounting for most people who wouldn't have bought them in the first place. I'm not even sure if anyone really takes it seriously because I don't see publishers bring it up.

Then how do they know what's popular online? Why are certain things popular online? Regardless of whether they're actually browsing aggregators regularly or not, they still make licensing decisions based on popularity, and the popularity exists due to online communities of Manga Editors. And yes, the popularity is much larger due to these sites, despite them probably being the main culprit for cutting into their profits.

We've probably gotten to the point with Viz specifically, that they can gauge public interest through their own sites and they do end up licensing a decent amount of series right from the beginning. But prior to this who can say?

How to gauge interest? Emails and tweets from fans asking for a certain series? Kodansha got a huge amount of them regarding Princess Jellyfish, and ended up licensing it.

They make decisions based on popularity, yes.
Popularity is probably based on Edited Mangas often times, yes.
This does not mean they went and looked at an aggregator site, which is all they said. There are plenty of forums to visit to gauge popularity and they get licensing requests all the time.

That's still either a lie or totally stupid. Why wouldn't they make licensing decisions based on the manga that westerners read the most? Do they not like money or something?

There's a lot more than an aggregator site to tell what's popular. At the end of the day, maybe a certain title is popular because of scans, but fans can voice their opinions on forums (/a/, reddit, tumblr, myanimelist, hummingbird) and request via social media. So, a publisher doesn't have to go to an aggregate site to know what's popular.

That's why I'm saying you can't really understand the effect. It's complicated and nuanced. There's many factors. Edited Mangas helped the manga industry in many ways, and hurt it in many ways. It would take a lot of research (and peeks into alternate realities) in order to understand whether the manga industry as a whole would be better with or without Edited Mangas. I just think it's a very tough claim for them to make.

Yeah it's pretty much that. The argument isn't about whether or not the existence of scans would make a difference though. They're just saying their sales are reduced. Nothing more, nothing less. And of course, the example I gave is of people I know. But... it's impossible to ever know how much of an impact scans actually have, for better of for worse.

There was one particular friend I have that bought printed Jump back in the day, but just reads scans now, since they're earlier and free, lol. Take that as you will.

 

[piau9000]

Again, there are no claims of anyone saying they're going bankrupt because of piracy. Even in panels, they do not claim they're losing massive amounts of money either. Those stats are probably true, but it's probably accounting for most people who wouldn't have bought them in the first place. I'm not even sure if anyone really takes it seriously because I don't see publishers bring it up.

"Regrettably, according to a report by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI) of Japan, a huge number of Manga and Anime fans, over 50% of them in the U.S. and 12% in Japan, are watching or reading pirated works.

The estimated cost of damage from online piracy is as much as JPY 2 trillion (approximately US$ 20 billion). In addition, a report by the Agency for Cultural Affairs of Japan indicates that in the major cities of China (Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Chongqing) the damage cost to Japanese content is JPY 560 billion (approximately US$ 5.6 billion) per year.

In a ranking by an information distribution survey site, for example, a popular piracy site is ranked 156th in Japan and 1,391st in the world, which is a similar rank with major listed companies on a stock firm in Japan.

Another example of showing you the serious situation of piracy is the number of illegal downloads of a popular Manga series from the piracy site: 41,363DLs for Volume 67, 39,623DLs for Volume 68, and 31,924DLs for Volume 69.

Piracy offences in Anime have also been serious. Pirated videos of a popular feature-length Anime have over 12 million views on a well-known video hosting site, which likely brought in a lot of illicit profits to the “pirate” from advertisement space."

Now pay attention to how much the term "pirate" was used in a derogatory way, as it's trying to enforce how bad and mean they are and how much they are suffering because of this.
They are doing this because they don't want to change their model of busines, even when Netflix and itunes did and it proved to be a success.
They want to force this outdated model on people and blame "pirates" for it's failure, the same thing that MPAA and RIAA are doing right now.

Viz, Hulu, etc... support this project, so they share the same vision.

 

[Stark700]

You know that absolutely none of this was ever verified or publicly supported in a publishers' panel right?

Absolutely zero publishers have claimed massive losses. And again, no publisher has still, has ever claimed they are on the verge of bankruptcy or are losing millions because of piracy.

Where did you see that those US publishers support this project?

I see this http://manga-anime-here.com/release/mag_project

Project Implementers: Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry / Content Overseas Distribution Association (CODA)
Consultative Organization: Manga-Anime Anti-Piracy Committee

and

Supporting Organizations: Manga-Anime Anti-Piracy Committee: Aniplex, Kadokawa, Good Smile Company, Kodansha, Sunrise, Shueisha, Shogakukan, ShoPro, Studio Ghibli, Tezuka Productions, Toei Animation, TMS Entertainment, Bandai Namco Games, Pierrot, Bushiroad

The Japanese side.

---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

Had US manga publishers been interested in taking the MPAA and RIAA route, they would have done more to alienate fans and we would have heard of a poor manga fan in the US who got his ass sued off for downloading a chapter from Nyaa and paid thousands of dollars.