Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[xAsum0x]

Are we certain supercow and rain spectre aren't the same person?

There's an off chance

Anyone know if the Horikoshi recommendation did anything to help JJK's recent volume. From the looks of it not anything major but I never did the math

 

[supercow297]

An irrelevant Pillar? DOES GOTOUGE NOT DO CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT? WHY DOESN'T HE SHE DEVELOPED THEM ALL AT THE SAME TIME /s

Haha good attempt at humor. The point is that in Kimetsu you get organic character interactions regardless of which person the spotlight is being cast on. In BnHA everyone that's not the most two relevant characters becomes a soulless puppet. I would like if all of the characters acted as if their development mattered "all at the same time", but unfortunately as you can see with Bakugou, Momo, Todoroki, Iida the way they act in general has barely changed.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 1, 2019 ---

Are we certain supercow and rain spectre aren't the same person?

Aw come on I thought we were kind of on the same side on this.

 

[xAsum0x]

Haha good attempt at humor. The point is that in Kimetsu you get organic character interactions regardless of which person the spotlight is being cast on. In BnHA everyone that's not the most two relevant characters becomes a soulless puppet. I would like if all of the characters acted as if their development mattered "all at the same time", but unfortunately as you can see with Bakugou, Momo, Todoroki, Iida the way they act in general has barely changed.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 1, 2019 ---

Aw come on I thought we were kind of on the same side on this.

Dude pls just say you dont like the series and you skimmed over everything. Because I'd get it, I really would, not everyone is gonna agree about the quality of some things, but if you had a small tiny bit of objectivism in you, we wouldn't be having this convo. Just move on brotha

 

[WyldViolet]

Kimetsu is basically talk no jutsu filled trashed with poorly paced dragged out fights.
I quite like the spider family and the train arcs, but I find these arguments to be really reaching as it's a generic series whose appeal is its stripped down nostalgic take on the genre.

 

[Xzone]

Backstory is still giving them character depth and explaining their motivations. Which BnHA is utterly failing to do.

Why am I so salty about this? Well, for one, Horikoshi teased three years ago that he had a full story planned out for Shoji, and what led to him having just a minimalist personality/room. And I was so hyped for that. Well after 150 chapters of no delivery I hope you can understand the disappointment... obviously the following are my own opinion, but I hope you can at least understand my feelings.

• In 200+ chapters we've still yet to see any human development or growth/motivations from backstory (by human I mean, technique development doesn't count) from Sato, Koda, Kaminari, Ojiro, Shoji, Sero, Hagakure, Mina, and Mineta. (9/20).
• Kirishima's backstory was okay. Aoyama's "don't be a pussy no more" moment was okay. Momo's "muh self-esteem" was okay. Tokoyami's "I CAN'T C-C-CONTROL THE DARKNESS WITHIN" was okay. (It was epic as fuck tho.) (4/20)
• Uraraka's "I fight for money for my parents!" Was a bit above okay. Same for Asui's "sorry guys for stopping you". Same for Jiro's getting over her embarrassment and singing proudly. (3/20)
• Iida's brother arc was really good. Midoriya and All Might's relationship is really good. (But Mido overall is trash, but I can overlook that for now.) Todoroki's backstory was really good. Bakugou's "I'm not a villain" and his All Might fanboyism was really good. (4/20)

To me BnHA is wasted potential: the series. That's why I'm so butthurt.
e.g. Imagine actually exploring Ojiro's mentality and his struggles having such an average quirk. Instead he's treated as a joke.
While I'm at it I'll continue the bitching. Manga Fukidashi is an example of where Horikoshi completely lost control. We're operating under the assumption that quirks are genetic, with scientific mumbo jumbo we can make nullifying bullets, etc. It's not fantasy, its science fiction so to speak. And then you have a guy whose head is a speech bubble.

Most pillar only have one arc around 20 chapter and nothing more.
Most pillar only have their sad backstory and nothing more.
Most pillar character development is seeing tanjirou and becoming more nice to him (except moichiro, and that's why Rica and I we agree have a good character development), which is a shitty romcom character arc.
In 160 chapter of Kimetsu we only are sad about most of the character because the author kills or do some bad thing happened to them.
In 160 chapter Kanae only have action in like 6 of them and gunbro in 4, fucking mineta have more chapters in action.

In general , the focus of Kimetsu is only Tanjiro , Nezuko and in a smaller way Zenitsu and Moichiro. The rest are like Bleach, they do cool things sometimes and some sad backstory but nothing more.

This made Kimetsu a bad manga or a waste potential manga? God no, is a good manga.

PD:Also the ojiro's plot that you say sounds boring and cliche . Not every character need to be like that(Inosuke is a good character because is fun)

 

[WyldViolet]

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 1, 2019 ---

Aw come on I thought we were kind of on the same side on this.

Not on this dude. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I dislike you. Just that I don't think your arguments are working.
I just moved and came back to the thread to find 40 new pages of chaos so I'm not getting into the fold here.

 

[CuriousReborn]

Its obvious that both side literally gives no shit about the other, go to a MHA thread and stop making this thread worst with pointless talks that go nowhere.

 

[Xzone]

Its obvious that both side literally gives no shit about the other, go to a MHA thread and stop making this thread worst with pointless talks that go nowhere.

We are talking about cast of various series running in this magazine (kimetsu and MHA).
If you don't like the topic don't post, but don't lie and act like a mod.

 

[4Eyes]

Ok Kaminari is so far static but that doesn't affect the develop other characters have received. Will Kaminari eventaully get development of course, but that doesn't mean its taking away from others or Horikoshis ignoring him lol

Well, that's my point. Why characters like Kaminari are still static 200 chapters in? Couldn't he had a bit of development while the others develop too? I know he and others will be developed eventually, but just a thinking, a comment or an insight on how to become better had while others are fighting could give they some development.

I agree with you. It's a fact that characters' relationships have developed.

When a character is not the focus of the story all of the other characters are treated as useless. There's no real dynamic between the characters unless they are the focus. They feel fake and there's no interaction.

This. The characters are developed, but when these characters lose the spotlight they become pretty much NPCs walking around.

I still enjoyed MHA till last arc, though. This league of villains arc has made me put it on hold since I noticed I didn't care anymore for what was happening.

 

[xAsum0x]

Kimetsu is basically talk no jutsu filled trashed with poorly paced dragged out fights.
I quite like the spider family and the train arcs, but I find these arguments to be really reaching as it's a generic series whose appeal is its stripped down nostalgic take on the genre.

I hope Gotouge quits giving some of these Moon demons relatable sad backstories, there's enough of em to go around

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 1, 2019 ---

Well, that's my point. Why characters like Kaminari are still static 200 chapters in? Couldn't he had a bit of development while the others develop too? I know he and others will be developed eventually, but just a thinking, a comment or an insight on how to become better had while others are fighting could give they some development.



This. The characters are developed, but when these characters lose the spotlight they become pretty much NPCs walking around.

I still enjoyed MHA till last arc, though. This league of villains arc has made me put it on hold since I noticed I didn't care anymore for what was happening.

For sure dude, I understand that some characters are indeed static, my argument was just he's 100% developing characters together and not separate. Yeah Kaminari (even though he's made progress in the development of his abilities, during the License Exam for example, and others are static, but he's been developing Kirishima along the way, Momo along the way, Ochako along the way, Tokoyami, Deku, Bakugo, Shoto, and alot of them are developing because of each other. I do think he struggles with the balance because its such a large cast but I have no doubts the guy wants to get to develop them. Like I said, its impossible for someone to fully and properly develop not just 20 alone, but 40 characters in both Class A and B and develop a world and setting as well as making sure things are flowing well. That's why I say he's doing a good job making things work. Supercow is saying the only person who matters is Deku and nobody is growing which is insane

They dont become NPC's walking around. Momo literally showcased herself plenty of times in the most recent arc in Joint training and during the Camp arc. Her main issue was confidence and decision making, she develops and shows it off by becoming a good tactician for the class. Thats just one example.

 

[Xzone]

I hope Gotouge quits giving some of these Moon demons relatable sad backstories, there's enough of em to go around

I like his sad backstories tho. In general Gotouge's characters feels a little Fujitaesque.

 

[supercow297]

Let me first say, this is really childish of me. I don't think it's breaking any rules, but if this is too far please let me know and I'll cut it out asap.

Anyway I was curious what series you were into, xAsum0x, and one thing led to another. The result? It turns out we have the exact same opinion!

---

This following post is hilarious. You are arguing literally my point. Against a guy who is making the points you were just making in this thread.

[Manga Spoilers] Anyone else think that our standards are impossibly high?

• OP:
  Every single day I see a post or comment about how "Why doesn't character x get character development anymore?" ... What this sub does not seem to understand is that there are only so many pages in a chapter. Only so many chapters in an arc.
• You:
  The issue is that the majority of the cast aren’t important to the story whatsoever.

---

And here's some miscellaneous points you've made about BnHA (These are really interesting and worth everyone's time to skim):

1. Because Horikoshi isnt as good at drawing fights as other mangakas. Plain and simple lol.
   Nice
2. Thought it was great aside from the females not really doing much and Overhauls Yakuza group being garbage aside from Rappa.
   I said the exact same to you and you brushed it under the rug.
3. Black Clover is in a high stake, high action arc. And it’s also fairly long. Pretty sure it can warrant having short chapters because the fans will enjoy the content of regardless. This arc shouldn’t be 13-14 chaps, more like 8-10
   Hm wow we seem to see eye to eye when you're not trying to mindlessly "win" against me.
4. The series is unique in a sense, even though people don’t talk about this aspect lot. We’ve never seen a battle shonen with such low stakes like this ... Most people though probably will probably be bored outta their mind lol
   Yup
5. nothing lol, it says more about the students than the pros. Most of the villians are trash anyways
   Very nice
6. [Horikoshi] does a good job creating interesting enjoyable characters, but a poor job at integrating them into the plot. (Read: when characters aren't in the spotlight they don't do anything worth noting.)
   Very nice

Absolutely hilarious. I guess we agree about more than we thought. I'm glad I took that little detour to assuage my hurt self-esteem.

---

Lastly there's this.

"Anyone else find it kinda stressful....
Trying to be embedded into the fandom but having to deal with constant controversy and bickering?"

My bad for being part of that, I'm completely done now.

 

[xAsum0x]

I like his sad backstories tho. In general Gotouge's characters feels a little Fujitaesque.

Yeah buts its kinda repetitive. Reminds me of how Oda does all the Straw Hat backstories. I feel you though

 

[supercow297]

I like his sad backstories tho. In general Gotouge's characters feels a little Fujitaesque.

Fujita?

 

[tirakai]

The main difference between Kimetsu and MHA in terms of character development I'd say is that most of Kimetsu's are pretty occasional characters who don't show up often but get good development when they do, while MHA has a lot of semi-core characters in class A who are around and do stuff most arcs but don't really get any development.

That just kind of proves the point really, by ch 3 we had Naruto's goofy but determined loser personality and Sakura's fangirl-ness coming across really strong with some pretty memorable moments (seriously who has MC kiss their gloomy rival 3 chapters in? that's a distinctive start).

With Naruto it felt like he was proud of the silly but serious characters he'd come up with and wanted to show off the all the fun stuff he's thought of to introduce them all. Samurai 8 however to me feels like its the world he's proud of and the characters are just there to let us get to that part of the series, except he doesn't really care much about the part where he has to introduce the world either and just wants it out of the way without putting much effort into it so he can get to the stuff he actually wants to write. There's no sense of soul in that.

 

[supercow297]

The main difference between Kimetsu and MHA in terms of character development I'd say is that most of Kimetsu's are pretty occasional characters who don't show up often but get good development when they do, while MHA has a lot of semi-core characters in class A who are around and do stuff most arcs but don't really get any development.



That just kind of proves the point really, by ch 3 we had Naruto's goofy but determined loser personality and Sakura's fangirl-ness coming across really strong with some pretty memorable moments (seriously who has MC kiss their gloomy rival 3 chapters in? that's a distinctive start).

With Naruto it felt like he was proud of the silly but serious characters he'd come up with and wanted to show off the all the fun stuff he's thought of to introduce them all. Samurai 8 however to me feels like its the world he's proud of and the characters are just there to let us get to that part of the series, except he doesn't really care much about the part where he has to introduce the world either and just wants it out of the way without putting much effort into it so he can get to the stuff he actually wants to write. There's no sense of soul in that.

Ah the soul vs soulless meme. I agree 100% with your entire comment though. (And the soul part too)

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 1, 2019 ---

Yeah buts its kinda repetitive. Reminds me of how Oda does all the Straw Hat backstories. I feel you though

Eh I think that's fine. One Piece is clearly meant to be more like a fable or fairy tale to be passed down the generations via oral tradition, than a true-to-life story. The formation of the Straw Hats as a ragtag group of people with broken pasts and cruel childhoods but all rose up and found each other as their true family is a beautiful image to me.

 

[xAsum0x]

Ah the soul vs soulless meme. I agree 100% with your entire comment though. (And the soul part too)

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Jun 1, 2019 ---

Eh I think that's fine. One Piece is clearly meant to be more like a fable or fairy tale to be passed down the generations via oral tradition, than a true-to-life story. The formation of the Straw Hats as a ragtag group of people with broken pasts and cruel childhoods but all rose up and found each other as their true family is a beautiful image to me.

I feel you, they're really well done though

 

[Caiops]

Kimetsu is the best manga in shonen jump right now.

I miss Rengoku, tho.

 

[savethecat]

I’ve posted this under a youtuber’s Video where he said the exact same thing. I guess I’ll post it here too.

the Samurai 8 fanboys who thinks it’s phenomenal, and “one of the best manga in YEARS”, are really undermining how good the beginning of Naruto was.

Just comparing the 1st 3 chapters of both series.

What do we know about Hachimaru in the 1st chapter. Hachimaru is sick. He’s a positive kid. And he wants to become a samurai. Why does he want to become a samurai? We don’t know; he just wants to be a samurai. By the end of the 1st chapter he becomes a samurai. How does he become a samurai? Through hard work and training? No. He becomes one because of the magic samurai rock that turns him into one. He has father, but we don’t see a ton of chemistry between the two. If you told me his dad was just an old guy that took him in a couple years ago I wouldn’t see much of a difference. He has the cat samurai whom he’s building a connection with as his master. Why does Hachimaru have a connection with the cat samurai? Cause the cat samurai is a samurai of course. No real reason other than that.

No look at the first 3 chapters of Naruto.
What do we know about Naruto? He’s a trouble maker who is a nuisance to everyone in the Konoha village. Why is Naruto such a trouble maker? Because he grew up with no parents, and the entire village shunned him because of the fox demon inside of him. Which he isn’t even aware of, so he has no clue why everyone hates him. He desperately just wants attention, and doesn’t care if it’s bad or good attention. Instantly we feel for Naruto, and can emphasize with how he feels.
Naruto wants to become Hokage. Why does he want to become Hokage? Well he has no real reason why. But that’s sort of the whole point. He just wants to get the highest Ninja position possible to prove to everyone that he’s not a loser and useless. He wants the respect from the same people who shunned him his whole life and called him worthless. So as a reader we can get behind this goal.

He has a connection with Iruka sensei, but this connection just feels genuine. Iruka can relate to Naruto because he grew up with no parents and became a nuisance for attention too. However, Iruka’s parents were killed by the same demon fox inside Naruto; so he has every reason to hate Naruto as much as the other villagers. But instead he knows Naruto is a good child, and treats him with love and respect.
And Naruto’s rivalry with Sasuke makes sense right away. Naruto just hates Sasuke because Sasuke is the best, and deep down, at the skill level he wants to be at. If you read chapter 3 and think it’s nothing more than shenanigans where Sasuke and Naruto kiss, then you really didn’t understand the rivalry being set up in that chapter.

With that being said, I enjoy Samurai 8, and think it’s had a solid enough start. But if we’re comparing just the beginning chapters of both series, S8 isn’t even in the same league as Naruto in terms of characterization, world building, emotion, and just overall storytelling. Saying “Naruto wasn’t doing much either” is just downplaying it’s phenomenal start(regardless of what became of the series later down the road).

 

[Avok]

Samurai 8's fourth chapter was a massive step up though. Things are beginning to move now with the keys, the relationship between Hachimaru and his dad and the looming threats.

I think it works, aside from the lack of screentone here and there.