Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Jovan]

A certain TOC on 2ch is going around with Bottom 2 being Samurai 8 and TSS, Mitama and Yozakura both still in the middle, with LCP/Cover for Jujutsu in #50. Probably fake. Too early.

 

[supercow297]

... You remind me of that scene in CCM 42 where Denji is boasting how great it is that he gets to eat three times a day and sleep in a bed.

My reaction is the same as the girl's.

"Having their own stories and capabilities", isn't enough? Then what specifically are you looking for here?

Well it depends on what you actually mean since most people seem to believe that having a female character who is strong is the equivalent of feminism and by that logic you can say that Fairy Tail is the most feminist shounen manga in recent years, quite frankly most Japanese artist tend to avoid the issue entirely since they know their audiences won't care about representation or appearing to be "woke". Ironically enough the only artist who have addressed the issue out in the open was Horikoshi, I mean his first manga Oumagadoki Zoo had a female lead, way back in the beginning with his Ochako v Bakugou fight, he is also the only artist in Jump that has brought up transgender roles without them seeing like a total joke or fetish fuel and there's a character who is pansexual in the manga. Now before a certain someone get on me for even insinuating that MHA has done anything progressive I'll like to point out that Hori acknowledges these things exist instead of just ignoring and making joke or strawman out of it like most artists do but he also writes to what is expected from a shounen manga and what his audience likes there's no hiding the fact that people have issues to how he handles female characters but they're largely in the variety of what their expectations are than anything to series has actually done.

You can't be serious. Even One Piece does better with okama-ish characters. BNHA had terrible balance in terms of the female cast and the trans couple were at least partially, clearly played for laughs.

Wait, so you guys consider liking a character for their personality traits and attitudes a form of objectification? Objectification is literally stripping people down of those things and making their existence solely about their bodies. It makes no sense to compare both cases.

Thinking someone has sexy abs is not inherently wrong. Neither is liking an assertive personality. However since only males are primarily focused on visual cues for sexytimes, limiting negative sexualization to only visual aspects is highly reductive. It specifically targets males for preferring one thing which they do biologically, when there's all kinds of questionable stuff in female targeted sexytimes material that is easily glossed over. Just read 50 Shades of Grey and tell me if you think the portrayal of males does men justice lol. I'm just saying endlessly persecuting one side for what they're biologically wired to desire is hardly equal, or progressive.

Your mindset is naive and you should do more research on the subject from various points of view.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

A certain TOC on 2ch is going around with Bottom 2 being Samurai 8 and TSS, Mitama and Yozakura both still in the middle, with LCP/Cover for Jujutsu in #50. Probably fake. Too early.

Yeah and no way Stone is that low.

 

[Konja9]

Wait, so you guys consider liking a character for their personality traits and attitudes a form of objectification? Objectification is literally stripping people down of those things and making their existence solely about their bodies. It makes no sense to compare both cases.

I think reducting a character existence to solely their bodies is pretty problematic.

However, situations are compared because they have the same origin. Both are made to please the viewer, so the characters are objectified.

I just mention this, because it isn't so simple like "men are the only ones who objectify another group of people"


I guess it is clearer if I compare Ecchi with Yaoi or Shonen-ai, which is aimed at women, but objectifies homosexual male relationships on several levels.

 

[supercow297]

@supercow297

Insofar as I replied to praise of BNHA? Is this one of those "le epic I baited le hater" situations? Are you underage?

My point is that BNHA is really not a great example of "progressiveness" when you have Black Clover, Kimetsu, still being classic shonen but doing it better. Way better.

Also, what does "largely in the variety of what their expectations are than anything to series has actually done." Even mean? It's completely unintelligible to me. Are you saying it's the fans fault for expecting better written females?

---

Also, while I'm still awake, I'm so happy for Kimetsu. Holy shit it's actually taking #1. Hope croc is a happy croc

 

[ChocoBar9]

Insofar as I replied to praise of BNHA? Is this one of those "le epic I baited le hater" situations? Are you underage?

Because you didn't actually bothered to read you just jumped on anyone with anything to say about MHA that wasn't negative like you always do and you don't even have a valid reason to do so hence why "you're predictable".

My point is that BNHA is really not a great example of "progressiveness" when you have Black Clover, Kimetsu, still being classic shonen but doing it better. Way better.

This would have been great if you...ya know...actually explained your reasoning and didn't immediately go on a tirade. As of now you're just hating for the sake of hating though after your last stunt which had the whole thread laughing at you I doubt anyone will gve you the time of day anymore.

Also, what does "largely in the variety of what their expectations are than anything to series has actually done." It's completely unintelligible to me.

Because you can't read. We already know that very well.

 

[supercow297]

Because you didn't actually bothered to read you just jumped on anyone with anything to say about MHA that wasn't negative like you always do and you don't even have a valid reason to do so hence why "you're predictable".


This would have been great if you...ya know...actually explained your reasoning and didn't immediately go on a tirade. As of now you're just hating for the sake of hating though after your last stunt which had the whole thread laughing at you I doubt anyone will gve you the time of day anymore.


Because you can't read. We already know that very well.

"hating for the sake of hating"
I'm disagreeing that BNHA is progressive. You can give examples of there being a trans woman, I can give examples of All Might being a super Uber masculine man, inspiring peace and fear in the villains' hearts, male heroes are at the top, female students only play support roles (when they show up), "B-B-B-BOOBS!" (Oh no, objectification!!1) yadda yadda.

"the whole thread laughing at you"
So this is what it feels like to have lost an argument... B-b-bros...

 

[ruggia]

Regardless of whether or not the Yuuna nipple easter egg should be considered an outrage, the fact that it's in a magazine that 10 year olds can grab off the shelf without adult supervision feels... irresponsible of WSJ, at the very least. Even if you think it's a funny gimmick in a vacuum, Yuuna is sharing pages with series that are straight up marketed to kids, like One Piece and MHA. That's the main thing that weirds me out about it.

WSM puts out full-blown sex scenes for two weeks in a row and no one bats an eye.

Jump shows some nipples in a roundabout way and everyone loses their mind

 

[animeexpert]

I actually really like the female cast in Bleach since they all have great designs and memorable personalities yeah it sucks that Rukia and Orihime became damsels in distress but the whole point of both of those arcs was to offer introspectives into their characters and in Rukia's case she wanted to sacrifice herself in order to make amends due to her own guilt and her development was her own self-discovery that her life was worth carrying on because she had an such impact on Ichigo that he had to return the favor. There's a reason why Rukia is constantly considered one of the best female leads in shounen manga since her design and personality sticks up up among the pack and unlike many of her contemporaries she didn't regress into being a love interest when she didn't need to.

That's what I loved so much about bleach In the early arcs, they both gave each other strength in the most original way in shonen history. without being forced (7ds) or because he's the main character (mha). Also Didnt rukia

Spoiler

got an bankai in blood war arc, so she wasn't really kept as dimsel in destress

Sucks for me ichigo didnt end up with rukia imo

 

[supercow297]

@supercow297

To quote you:
"This would have been great if you...ya know...actually explained your reasoning"

 

[ChocoBar9]

WSM puts out full-blown sex scenes for two weeks in a row and no one bats an eye.

Jump shows some nipples in a roundabout way and everyone loses their mind

Well that's because WSM primarily demographic is college freshmen hence why there's pin-up shots in the magazine and they aren't really afraid to shy away from racy topics....as long as you don't show nipples sex is fine! After all think of the children!

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

To quote you:
"This would have been great if you...ya know...actually explained your reasoning"

Which you still didn't fortunately.

 

[Franz]

For me is Black Clover. Noelle is for me the best heroine in current Jump: a strong self-dependant woman who has had a lot of character development and is right now one of the strongest characters of the manga. Yes, I find Noelle more solid than Emma for example.

Mhhh, I wouldn't say.

The only thing that makes Noelle original is the fact that unlike characters like Sakura first series or Nami before Cima Tact is not a burden from the combative point of view, on the personality side we spread a pitiful veil.

 

[Ryuusei]

A certain TOC on 2ch is going around with Bottom 2 being Samurai 8 and TSS, Mitama and Yozakura both still in the middle, with LCP/Cover for Jujutsu in #50. Probably fake. Too early.

Yeah, sounds like a fake. But the TOC should be leaked tonight since the next issue comes out earlier this week.

"Having their own stories and capabilities", isn't enough? Then what specifically are you looking for here?



You can't be serious. Even One Piece does better with okama-ish characters. BNHA had terrible balance in terms of the female cast and the trans couple were at least partially, clearly played for laughs.



Thinking someone has sexy abs is not inherently wrong. Neither is liking an assertive personality. However since only males are primarily focused on visual cues for sexytimes, limiting negative sexualization to only visual aspects is highly reductive. It specifically targets males for preferring one thing which they do biologically, when there's all kinds of questionable stuff in female targeted sexytimes material that is easily glossed over. Just read 50 Shades of Grey and tell me if you think the portrayal of males does men justice lol. I'm just saying endlessly persecuting one side for what they're biologically wired to desire is hardly equal, or progressive.

Your mindset is naive and you should do more research on the subject from various points of view.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

Yeah and no way Stone is that low.

Dude, I can't believe you used 5SOG in this convo lol. That book/series is trash, not for how they portray men, but how the author glosses over an abusive relationship while paiting it as an S&M one (and yes most of the time men are the abusive ones in a relationship). And really? biologically wired? Just so you know, I have a bachelor's in a Science field and I worked with reproduction so reading those words is baffling. Women do have sexual desires, but more often than not they are cussed and shamed for voicing them out, while men have done that since the beginning of humankind and go unscathed. You saying males prefer only that one thing just sounds like they are aroused animals that a can't get control of themselves. I'm not saying there aren't fucked up things in media targeted for women and I'm not persecuting one side only, I'm just basing my statements on plenty of stuff that I've read and seen happening to the the women around me.

I think reducting a character existence to solely their bodies is problematic.

However, situations are compared because they have the same origin. Both are made to please the viewer, so the characters are objectified.

Yes, they are both made to please the audience, but the key difference is that sexually objectified characters are shallow, their only purpose for existing is pleasure, while characters which have all kinds of personality traits and attitudes have important roles for the development of a story.

 

[Jovan]

Yeah, sounds like a fake. But the TOC should be leaked tonight since the next issue comes out earlier this week.

Last time the issue was early, it was released on what is for me Wednesday (so tomorrow). Usually these TOCs get leaked in the morning in my time zone, and it's already past that.

 

[Konja9]

Thinking someone has sexy abs is not inherently wrong. Neither is liking an assertive personality. However since only males are primarily focused on visual cues for sexytimes, limiting negative sexualization to only visual aspects is highly reductive. It specifically targets males for preferring one thing which they do biologically, when there's all kinds of questionable stuff in female targeted sexytimes material that is easily glossed over. Just read 50 Shades of Grey and tell me if you think the portrayal of males does men justice lol. I'm just saying endlessly persecuting one side for what they're biologically wired to desire is hardly equal, or progressive.

I agree in this part.

I don't think it's okay to reduce a female character only to her body. It's a terible idea and concept.

However, the negative sexualization is more complex and varied than just that. Men aren't the only guilty on that.


PS: To be clear, there are visual cues for sexytimes directed to women, it's just the male body doesn't have so much focus (compared to the female body in sexytimes directed to men).

 

[ChocoBar9]

Mhhh, I wouldn't say.

The only thing that makes Noelle original is the fact that unlike characters like Sakura first series or Nami before Cima Tact is not a burden from the combative point of view, on the personality side we spread a pitiful veil.

And even that's not original either Jump has had female characters like that dating back to as far as the 80's with Mamiya from Hokuto no Ken.

 

[supercow297]

Mhhh, I wouldn't say.

The only thing that makes Noelle original is the fact that unlike characters like Sakura first series or Nami before Cima Tact is not a burden from the combative point of view, on the personality side we spread a pitiful veil.

We're not talking originality here. Plus she gets good focus and has her own storyline which is continuously ramping up even now. Everyone in Black clover has a very cliche personality until they are further developed so it's not really a minus on her that she acts like a tsundere in comedic scenes.

 

[ChocoBar9]

Name? my brother

I think he's talking about Domestic Girlfirend. Fuuka also had sex scenes as well and 7DS had both explicit and non-explicit sex as well.

 

[Thundercat27]

Isn't it crazy, how showing a person got chopped in half is perfectly alright while an absolutely harmless body part is shunned upon? And why on earth 5 year old kids can't see nipples? Didn't they just suck them a few years earlier (hell, some of them still suck them, I bet )?
I would put the line at showing genitals. I don't think nipples are something shameful. Would you shame women who feed their babies? I won't. And anyone who tries to shame them or demands women to cover themselves are horny motherfucker who arouses at women raising their infants.

 

[supercow297]

Yeah, sounds like a fake. But the TOC should be leaked tonight since the next issue comes out earlier this week.



Dude, I can't believe you used 5SOG in this convo lol. That book/series is trash, not for how they portray men, but how the author glosses over an abusive relationship while paiting it as an S&M one (and yes most of the time men are the abusive ones in a relationship). And really? biologically wired? Just so you know, I have a bachelor's in a Science field and I worked with reproduction so reading those words is baffling. Women do have sexual desires, but more often than not they are cussed and shamed for voicing them out, while men have done that since the beginning of humankind and go unscathed. You saying males prefer only that one thing just sounds like they are aroused animals that a can't get control of themselves. I'm not saying there aren't fucked up things in media targeted for women and I'm not persecuting one side only, I'm just basing my statements on plenty of stuff that I've read and seen happening to the the women around me.



Yes, they are both made to please the audience, but the key difference is that sexually objectified characters are shallow, their only purpose for existing is pleasure, while characters which have all kinds of personality traits and attitudes have important roles for the development of a story.

You seriously need to go back and reread what me and Konja said. This isn't a "haha you wrong go reread" but I seriously think you're misunderstanding what I said.

"And really? [Men are] biologically wired [to be more sexually attuned to visual stimuli whereas women aren't and primarily receive a variety of other cues instead]?"
Yes. Google is your friend.

"Women do have sexual desires"
Let me say this, because many people have been putting words in my mouth over the past few days and using it as a ways to "BTFO" me or what have you.
I never said women do not have sexual desires. Not even close.
Stop putting words in my mouth. You seriously need reading comprehension.
Your mistake is assuming that sexual desire is all founded on visuals. Either that or speedreading my comment.

"but the key difference is that sexually objectified characters are shallow, their only purpose for existing is pleasure, while characters which have all kinds of personality traits and attitudes have important roles for the development of a story."
I'll give you an easy-to-understand example since you seem to be having a difficult time comprehending that objectification can occur to aspects other than physical presentation.

Spoiler

This is very similar. Foreigners are presented commonly to have a playboy/wild personality, e.g. recently in a Bokuben episode. It was a hilarious episode to be fair, but ofc the foreigners went immediately to use seduction/pickup tactics on Uruka causing Nariyuki to step in. This is what I mean by, just as males may highlight some aspects of women in certain narratives, many other groups have a selective focus that can be damaging to how they are perceived as a whole. In the example above and time and time again we are shown that foreigners do X, Y, Z in Japan, etc.

 

[Franz]

And even that's not original either Jump has had female characters like that dating back to as far as the 80's with Mamiya from Hokuto no Ken.

This is not even the case.

Mamiya as a fighter was quite inferior to other male warriors.

Here at Black Clover maybe you can recognize the fact that it has a cast of very strong female characters, on the side of the personality they sin a little bit, being all quite stereotyped