Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[supercow297]

And even that's not original either Jump has had female characters like that dating back to as far as the 80's with Mamiya from Hokuto no Ken.

Again, originality is not and has ever been the issue. Are you going to have an issue with all strong females' originality IRL just because Joan of Arc exists? It makes no sense. Just because Noelle has similarities to past female mains doesn't mean that tarnishes the progressiveness of her role in any way.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

recent chaps of Hitman

Oh based, I need to pick it up again. Hope MC is finally getting it on with the mangaka :3

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019 ---

This is not even the case.

Mamiya as a fighter was quite inferior to other male warriors.

Here at Black Clover maybe you can recognize the fact that it has a cast of very strong female characters, on the side of the personality they sin a little bit, being all quite stereotyped

Although if you read into it more their stereotypes are addressed quite well. They exist for easy identification of the characters but do not easily box them in. The most recent example is how they're deconstructing Finral's Sanji-esque womanizing.

It's clear Tabata doesn't want to write shallow characters but wants them to be easily memorable using trope-y ways to at least appeal to the audience and play it safe at first, but he definitely cares about developing his characters.

 

[Konja9]

Yes, they are both made to please the audience, but the key difference is that sexually objectified characters are shallow, their only purpose for existing is pleasure, while characters which have all kinds of personality traits and attitudes have important roles for the development of a story.

If a character only exists for pleasure purpose, but it doesn't have a role in the story. That's a big problem.

However, there are still sexualized characters that have personality and focus in the story.


PS: I don't think sexualized only include "showing skin and body", but any intention to arouse people. So many male characters are sexualized in shoujo and josei.

 

[supercow297]

If a character only exists for pleasure purpose, but it doesn't have a role in the story. That's a big problem.

However, there are still sexualized characters that have personality and focus in the story.


PS: I don't think sexualized only include "showing skin and body", but any intention to arouse people. So many male characters are sexualized in shoujo and josei.

BASED. Thank you, hopefully your presentation of these points makes it through to them this time.

Yep, the recent volume has an extended exclusive sex scene I believe.

NO WAY!!!!!!!!! Damn I'm hyped. IIRC FemMC is basically mangaka Kirisu Mafuyu so I'm DOWN

 

[ChocoBar9]

Mamiya as a fighter was quite inferior to other male warriors.

The majority of the female cast in BC are weaker than the males so I don't understand the point you come across. Noelle isn't equal in strength to Asta and Yuno

Here at Black Clover maybe you can recognize the fact that it has a cast of very strong female characters, on the side of the personality they sin a little bit, being all quite stereotyped

So does Naruto. Who cares? Its easy to say that a female character is strong in a story but it might as well be lip service if there's nothing interesting about her or if most of their contributions don't compare to the males. Having "females characters who are strong" is something that should not be praised to begin with.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

Again, originality is not and has ever been the issue. Are you going to have an issue with all strong females' originality IRL just because Joan of Arc exists? It makes no sense. Just because Noelle has similarities to past female mains doesn't mean that tarnishes the progressiveness of her role in any way.

Actually it does since there's nothing progressive about her role to begin with. Its just among the many aspects of BC that its fanbase overexaggerate because they don't read a lot of shounen or they desperately want it to stand out because its vastly less popular than its contemporaries.

 

[supercow297]

The majority of the female cast in BC are weaker than the males so I don't understand the point you come across. Noelle isn't equal in strength to Asta and Yuno



So does Naruto. Who cares? Its easy to say that a female character is strong in a story but it might as well be lip service if there's nothing interesting about her or if most of their contributions don't compare to the males. Having "females characters who are strong" is something that should not be praised to begin with.

Not just the majority, but every single female in the BNHA universe can't stand a chance against All Might, a muscular, cis, straight man, whose hyper-masculine male is known for being the pillar of Japan's justice. There's your "This would have been great if you...ya know...actually explained your reasoning". Looking forward to your next reaction gif response.

Naruto and Black Clover have a vastly different treatment of their female characters. Stop reaching.

"Having "females characters who are strong" is something that should not be praised to begin with."
Okay now you've jumped the shark.

 

[Scruffy8642]

For female characters this decade, I'd have to say World Trigger, even if it's not in Jump anymore. Tons of females, many capable and in high positions and badasses, none are sexualised or reduced to love interests despite the transformation being a perfect opportunity to do so, and they get equal screentime to males. Ashihara does the simple thing of valueing all of his characters and treating them equally. WT just does so many things masterfully, it really is an amazing series and blows pretty much everything this decade out of the water in most aspects in sheer writing quality.

Act-age is pretty similar in its treatment to WT too. Reina is probably the most "real" feeling female we've had in Jump for a while and I don't think anyone expected Kawada to handle her as well as he did, especially when she started off as a trope. MHA's female characters are well above the quality we usually see in Jump stuff, but they're terribly underutilised, though that's a problem for most of the side characters tbh. Not a fan of any of BC's main females at all. Noelle has been treated well these last few arcs, but the Asta complex is so forced and unnecessary. She'd be a pretty good character without it.. Haven't read the later parts of Jujutsu so won't comment. Nothing else really has females worth mentioning I don't think.

 

[supercow297]

Actually it does since there's nothing progressive about her role to begin with. Its just among the many aspects of BC that its fanbase overexaggerate because they don't read a lot of shounen or they desperately want it to stand out because its vastly less popular than its contemporaries.

We're not talking about the progressiveness of her role. If you want to talk about particular roles then you could spend all day going on how Goku and Luffy and reductionist and don't properly present the variety of the male psyche and devalue male culture, yadda yadda.

In fact I don't see Noelle as fitting in any particular role, I unironically see her as a member of the Noelle family who is coming into her own and now starting on her adventure to solve her family's curse. The fact that you see her as fitting in a particular role says a lot about you in turn.

Also, nice how your argument here is, to directly quote you,
"they don't read a lot of shounen"
"desperately"
"[It's not popular]"

 

[ChocoBar9]

Are you saying it's the fans fault for expecting better written females?

Let me give you some advice; most fans don't know what they want and their objections to how an author may do somethings will not hamper its appeal in the eyes of many hell most series go downhill because the author listens to their fanbase. So when fans say "they want better written females" what they really are saying "they want more females in the limelight" when doesn't actually improve the story at all.

 

[supercow297]

For female characters this decade, I'd have to say World Trigger, even if it's not in Jump anymore. Tons of females, many capable and in high positions and badasses, none are sexualised or reduced to love interests despite the transformation being a perfect opportunity to do so, and they get equal screentime to males. Ashihara does the simple thing of valueing all of his characters and treating them equally. WT just does so many things masterfully, it really is an amazing series and blows pretty much everything this decade out of the water in most aspects in sheer writing quality.

Act-age is pretty similar in its treatment to WT too. Reina is probably the most "real" feeling female we've had in Jump for a while and I don't think anyone expected Kawada to handle her as well as he did, especially when she started off as a trope. MHA's female characters are well above the quality we usually see in Jump stuff, but they're terribly underutilised, though that's a problem for most of the side characters tbh. Not a fan of any of BC's main females at all. Noelle has been treated well these last few arcs, but the Asta complex is so forced and unnecessary. She'd be a pretty good character without it.. Haven't read the later parts of Jujutsu so won't comment. Nothing else really has females worth mentioning I don't think.

I agree but I see no reason to completely forbid sexualization, as that is also a part of life. As long as it isn't meant directly to pander, which is what I'm sure you're getting at anyways.

"Ashihara does the simple thing of valueing all of his characters and treating them equally."
This is what matters most. 100x agree.

"the Asta complex is so forced and unnecessary."
Yeah but it doesn't really subtract from her character unless you choose to get triggered by it. It's similar to people who get triggered by Sanji's love for Nami/etc. or Zenitsu's love for Nezuko, I still think overall they're great characters and the "love" part is mostly for the sake of comedy anyway.
That's like hating Gintama characters for their repeated gags. Like hating Sacchan for always doing lovey-dovey stuff to Gin. She's still a great character behind those gags. So is Noelle.

 

[ChocoBar9]

We're not talking about the progressiveness of her role. If you want to talk about particular roles then you could spend all day going on how Goku and Luffy and reductionist and don't properly present the variety of the male psyche and devalue male culture, yadda yadda.

Uhh....

Again, originality is not and has ever been the issue. Are you going to have an issue with all strong females' originality IRL just because Joan of Arc exists? It makes no sense. Just because Noelle has similarities to past female mains doesn't mean that tarnishes the progressiveness of her role in any way.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

Question do you actually read your own post?

 

[supercow297]

Let me give you some advice; most fans don't know what they want and their objections to how an author may do somethings will not hamper its appeal in the eyes of many hell most series go downhill because the author listens to their fanbase. So when fans say "they want better written females" what they really are saying "they want more females in the limelight" when doesn't actually improve the story at all.

That's not what advice means. That's called "presenting your opinion".

"So when fans say "they want better written females" what they really are saying "they want more females in the limelight" when doesn't actually improve the story at all."
True. However BNHA having no females in the limelight is definitely not helping. I don't see what you're trying to argue here. Obviously people want BOTH better written females and more females in the limelight. It's not mutually exclusive, don't make it so. And you're assuming everyone who wants better written females is too dumb to understand that screentime != good character.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

Uhh....



Question do you actually read your own post?

I meant "Just because Noelle has similarities to past female mains doesn't mean that tarnishes the progressiveness of her role the "progressiveness" of her character in any way."

Now reply to the rest of my response, which I've helpfully put below so you don't skip past the parts that are uncomfortable for you to acknowledge as usual, or post another family guy gif to admit that you're wrong.

---

We're not talking about the progressiveness of her role. If you want to talk about particular roles then you could spend all day going on how Goku and Luffy and reductionist and don't properly present the variety of the male psyche and devalue male culture, yadda yadda.

In fact I don't see Noelle as fitting in any particular role, I unironically see her as a member of the Noelle family who is coming into her own and now starting on her adventure to solve her family's curse. The fact that you see her as fitting in a particular role says a lot about you in turn.

 

[ShenGao]

@ChocoBar9 & @supercow297, how about you two continue this "discussion" with PMs, because I'm sure that the other people in this thread don't want to see your kindergarten fight.

 

[supercow297]

@ChocoBar9 & @supercow297, how about you two continue this "discussion" with PMs, because I'm sure that the other people in this thread don't want to see your kindergarten fight.

I'm replying to people other them him on a variety of subjects and reply back to him when he does to me. I can ignore him from now on if that's what you want, but just to make it clear, there's no problem in continuing the conversation I was having with Ryuusei/Konja, etc., right? IThis topic of progressiveness in WSJ is interesting, it's still cool if we discuss other parts of it right?

 

[ChocoBar9]

That's not what advice means. That's called "presenting your opinion".

No I'm giving you advice to not use what fans say as merit for anything because they don't know what they want. You already kind of screwed the pooch by implying that most fans care about stuff like that to begin with.

True. However BNHA having no females in the limelight is definitely not helping. I don't see what you're trying to argue here. Obviously people want BOTH better written females and more females in the limelight. It's not mutually exclusive, don't make it so. And you're assuming everyone who wants better written females is too dumb to understand that screentime != good character.

Actually there are hence why people bring this up as an "issue "they want to see them more often in the limelight because Hori has done a good job with them as characters there wouldn't be any complaints otherwise if the female characters were never in the limelight. The problem is that what is considered "well-written" is different from person to person. Most people would not consider the female cast in BC well-written for example but there's plenty of people who will defend it all the same.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

@ChocoBar9 & @supercow297, how about you two continue this "discussion" with PMs, because I'm sure that the other people in this thread don't want to see your kindergarten fight.

You say this while ignoring the fact that the last five pages was arguing about nipples. This is all on topic.

 

[Kolbe]

I don't want to sound like an asshole but can you guys stop it? This discussion has been pretty tiring and both of you are still at square one.
Edit: Nevermind, @ShenGao has already ended it.

 

[supercow297]

I'm done.

 

[Drarkknight]

This does bring up something I wanted to discuss in the future, but I might as well do so now.

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

Black Clover and Dr. Stone

 

[NeeNeen]

Most of the female characters in Stone are their to support the males via being love interests or dropping babies. They're not given the same level of importance as the males but they're not treated badly either which honestly shouldn't be knock against it since its expected for the audience in question.

Are we reading the same series? Their main fighter is a woman, their main inside intelligence source is a woman, their main tailor & body restorer is a woman, their main reconnaissance spy is a woman, their main cook is a woman, their main historian is a woman. How are those not important?

Also, most of the females don't even have a love interest (I can think of... two? Three if you count the villains), and none of them have been dropping babies... Seriously, what ARE you talking about?

The whole thing with Act-age is that its not gender specific and it doesn't directly appeal to one group or another so the characterization of its female cast is just a byproduct of its good writing than trying to appear "strong" or "progressive". It also dances around a lot of those issues because its largely character focus, what the hell is a series like this doing in Jump?

Are you asking what a series with good writing is doing in Jump?

And yes, a good writer will write good females. That's not a byproduct, it's just part of the package. I'm not sure why you seem to be looking for some kind of ploy here, treating women like humans doesn't require any kind of political intent.

"Having their own stories and capabilities", isn't enough? Then what specifically are you looking for here?

No, no, it's great.

But treating females as humans should be the baseline, and not some kind of new and exotic ('very refreshing') thing.

 

[Franz]

So does Naruto. Who cares?

In Naruto the strong female characters were still few, and almost always in the categories in which they were disfigured (eg Sakura is decidedly stronger than the other young kunochi, but much weaker than Naruto and Sasuke, Mei among all Kage is strong that one it is distinct less, the same for Tsunade for the Sannin etc.) the only exception is Kaguya, a sin that has zero personality or utility

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

The majority of the female cast in BC are weaker than the males

But I wouldn't say, look at Mereloena who from what we've seen is the strongest captain .....

Or even inside the Black Bull, where all female members have very powerful magic.

 

[supercow297]

No, no, it's great.

But treating females as humans should be the baseline, and not some kind of new and exotic ('very refreshing') thing.

I agree, I'm just wondering what specifically you think is lacking specifically. If there's no one thing in particular then I think it just depends on the quality of the writer. In this day and age, I'd somewhat casually hypothesize that the presence of bad female characters in means the male characters are probably bad too, and similarly for good female characters.

I just don't see why there is a faction of people who see the need to consistently divide this on a gender line as the default mode of analysis. I think that should only be the right way when a series is clearly unbalanced gender-wise, for no good reason. (e.g. Hinomaru Zumou has a pretty solid basis on why males are the focus)

**Oh, and by refreshing to see good female characters, I just mean, it feels good to see, not like "exotic" or whatever.