Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2021] - Discussion and ToC Talk

[Jovan]

Because it's generally accepted that series constantly at the top are "popular" and series constantly at the bottom are "unpopular". Isn't this obvious by now?

That does not mean it's fixed. EiC can easily manipulate the ToC to push something. Moriking, Samurai 8 are all examples of this. Both had decent placements. S8 got LCP, CPs etc.
Magu is most likely another example for this.

Magu's case is more annoying just because at least with Moriking and S8, they stopped pushing it once the series Volumes sold miserably. Magu is still being given CPs and OK placements despite stagnant sales.
Seeing how Roboco is also being pushed far more than most other newbies, it's potentially a display of biases. At least, again, in Roboco's case there is growth. What is the argument for Magu? Stagnant sales for a new franchise basically makes that franchise moot.

Consider the above and add the fact we have a series like PS that is showing far more VoV growth over most other newbies (selling more than UU before it got the boost) isn't even being given a single CP or a bit of promotion.

And pretty sure most of us annoyed by Magu's treatment actually adore the series. It's just a clear case of incompetence from the editor department.

Similar to how there is an obvious bias towards One Piece over Kimetsu. Things like this should be obvious as day

I get your points, but that doesn't explain why TOC is being discussed at all. If the main data people are using for anything are sales (since we don't have any other info because TOC is treated as a non-info in general), then it's pretty clear that's where it all lies. Why should I even bother into checking it every week when like you said, it's not fixed, and several things seem to be mismatched?

Personally, I don't see Magu-chan surviving for too long, for the reasons you outlined, and that is what most people here agree upon. Problem is, have we came to the point where nobody trusts the Jump or editorial itself at all? Phantom Seer is exactly making a rift, where people are narrowed to think that EIC must be biased against it because it's not a gag. Which, in my opinion, speaks a lot.

 

[101nemesis]

I get your points, but that doesn't explain why TOC is being discussed at all. If the main data people are using for anything are sales (since we don't have any other info because TOC is treated as a non-info in general), then it's pretty clear that's where it all lies. Why should I even bother into checking it every week when like you said, it's not fixed, and several things seem to be mismatched?

Personally, I don't see Magu-chan surviving for too long, for the reasons you outlined, and that is what most people here agree upon. Problem is, have we came to the point where nobody trusts the Jump or editorial itself at all? Phantom Seer is exactly making a rift, where people are narrowed to think that EIC must be biased against it because it's not a gag. Which, in my opinion, speaks a lot.

Because Oricon only came end of the 2000s and Shoseki came after that. We hardly had information prior to that. ToC's were the most effective way to tell if something was popular or not before that.

I'm pretty sure people like myself have stated this multiple times here that you shouldn't take the ToC to be anything more than a basic popularity indicator especially when you don't have any further information on that series.

Example;
Good ToC placements + Early CPs or Covers usually means popular new series. Especially from a newbie.
But there are exceptions.

 

[tirakai]

ToC definitely matters, it tells us what jump has faith in and what to expect of the near future. Series that are always placed at the bottom get cancelled, while series never in the bottom don't get cancelled. Mitama despite occasional jumps up did spent most of its time in the bottom, Moriking dropped to the bottom and stayed there after brief initial popularity as did Samurai 8. They dropped to the bottom long term and got axed, that's how WSJ works.

Hence having good ToC and colour pages means the editors at jump think Magu-chan is worth promoting, if it was seen as a failing series it would be down at the bottom every issue with HSF but it's not. Clearly Jump thinks it's popular enough to warrant good placement and colours and that PS is not even if you disagree due to the single metric of PS volumes selling slightly better.

Flat sales don't matter, sales compared to expectations are what matters. Samurai 8 sold well compared to other new series but terrible compared to what they expected so it's viewed as a failure. Moriking literally was selling 2-3k per volume.

 

[Stivie]

It is something very simple, you have the TOC where a series d in the Top 5 or in the middle of the table, is a sign of success or security. And Botton 5 means cancellation.

But if a series in the botton sells well, it becomes either in the Top 5 or in the middle of the table.
If a series starts to drop in sales, that series falls on Botton 5 and is eventually canceled. This is what should happen to Magu chan but the editors are protecting it for no reason.

 

[Manjiknights]

Clearly Jump thinks it's popular enough to warrant good placement and colours and that PS is not even if you disagree due to the single metric of PS volumes selling slightly better.

It's not even slight, it's a difference of like 10k per volume. Slight was the difference between Magu and Roboco before Roboco grew with volume 2 and Magu didn't; albeit, the way I see it, if they had given Roboco's level of push including 2 million view YouTube parodies to Magu instead the situation would have been reversed since there was such a marginal difference between both volume 1s. And even then neither have sold/would have sold better than Phantom Seer.

I don't think Nakano makes every single decision at Jump but he does have a history of liking comedy manga so it is entirely possible Roboco and Magu wouldn't still be around if there was no personal bias involved. That's why people are upset, they think he's letting his and perhaps the rest of the department's personal biases leak into editorial decisions. Which would mean their promotion isn't based on how much of a chance the series have in the future but based on what they feel like protecting. Of course we won't ever have the exact evidence to support this, but it's conjecture based on trends.

 

[Ricool]

Hence having good ToC and colour pages means the editors at jump think Magu-chan is worth promoting, if it was seen as a failing series it would be down at the bottom every issue with HSF but it's not. Clearly Jump thinks it's popular enough to warrant good placement and colours and that PS is not even if you disagree due to the single metric of PS volumes selling slightly better.

The thing is, it isn't a successful series. Magu's sales are literally the same as Agravity Boys'... In the meantime, Phantom Seer's sales aren't incredible, but it started okayish and shows solid growth with its second volume despite its lack of promotion.

Magu's promotion is only due to bias from the editorial department, and that's what's annoying. It's not even like Jump doesn't have any other potential gag manga hits, they have Roboco which shows growth (albeit small), Mashle and Sakamoto Days which have gag elements and now Witch Watch from a veteran author...

 

[101nemesis]

PS volumes selling slightly better.

PS Vol 2 estimated sales - 20-22k
Magu Vol 2 estimated sales - 12k
That's almost double.

Most important factor is that PS has shown a big VoV increase and super strong backlogs when Vol 2 released.
Magu backlogs are abysmal.

PS is performing better than early UU and Yoza.
This isn't even up for debate.

 

[Dller]

Any company has a mechanism for evaluating or accepting a product.
It is not unlikely that the Editorial should have more data in addition to volume sales to base TOC's position. (Digital Sales or Questionnaires).
It can also be the last push. Or explode or ax.
But I do not believe that it is simply "I like this story more and then I will privilege it".

 

[SharkBait]

Why is it even discussed around then, with so many things people talking against it? Just curious now.

People only talk against it, when it shows their favorite series bombing. People prop it up when it shows their favorite series succeeding. Notice how phantom seer fans cling to volume sales and ignore the TOC placements, yet cling onto ToC placements to suggest that Magu chan and Dolphin should be ended before it.

 

[CrOF]

People only talk against it, when it shows their favorite series bombing. People prop it up when it shows their favorite series succeeding. Notice how phantom seer fans cling to volume sales and ignore the TOC placements, yet cling onto ToC placements to suggest that Magu chan and Dolphin should be ended before it.

Convenient to leave out that Magu and Dolphin sold worse across 2 volumes and didn't grow, but yeah sure we're all just mad PS fans.

 

[tirakai]

PS is performing better than early UU and Yoza.
This isn't even up for debate.

Undead and Yozakura didn't spend the entire time at the bottom, which indicates they were doing much better in other areas besides sales. But even then their sales numbers were pretty bad, it's not a very impressive bar to clear, and in a more competitive magazine there's a good chance they both would've been axed early on. Also Yozakura was a mix of genres and able to try lots of different things to gather popularity, and Undead won an award that doubled its sales. Phantom Seer is unlikely to do either of those.

The ToC is not a reflection of how much each series sells, it's a reflection of general popularity of which sales is only one single aspect. There's also the poll, WSJ's desire for variety in genre and demographics, series having other individual things to promote, and so on.

 

[Chuck_Atlas]

Yozakura did spend a good time of its early run in the bottom, not the ENTIRE time but it did used to place there regularly

 

[RafGL]

Yozakura didn't spend the entire time at the bottom,

· Yozakura Family
Chapter 08: #05
Chapter 09: #10
Chapter 10: #08
Chapter 11: #10
Chapter 12: #11
Chapter 13: #09
Chapter 14: Color Page
Chapter 15: #12 (Bottom 5)
Chapter 16: #12 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 17: #13 (Bottom 2)
Chapter 18: #12 (Bottom 1)
Chapter 19: #11 (Bottom 4)
Chapter 20: #15 (Bottom 1)
Chapter 21: #11 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 22: #13 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 23: #13 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 24: #10 (Bottom 5)

It kept ranking in Bottom 5 or 1/2 places over it until Chapter 52.

Phantom Seer
Chapter 08: #07
Chapter 09: #09
Chapter 10: #14 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 11: #11 (Bottom 5)
Chapter 12: Color Page
Chapter 13: #14 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 14: #15 (Bottom 2)
Chapter 15: #15 (Bottom 1)
Chapter 16: #14 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 17: #13 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 18: #12 (Bottom 4)
Chapter 19: #12 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 20: #12 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 21: #13 (Bottom 2)
Chapter 22: #12 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 23: #12 (Bottom 3)
Chapter 24: #11 (Bottom 3)

 

[tirakai]

You're just proving the point, Phantom dropped to the bottom by ch 10 and has only even left the bottom 3 once since ch 13, While Yozakura didn't hit it until ch 15 and got at least to 5th last a couple times after. It might not be by a ton, but it is noticeably better. That's also in addition to Yozakura having 5 more long runners to contend with. Not that Yozakura was doing particularly well either, it being cancelled was a real worry early on and those worries only really went away when it switched genres near ch 50.

Phantom could still do a Yozakura and claw back, it's certainly possible we'll see positions flip around by the time it would be at risk, but it doesn't have the same ability to change what its doing and try different things to see what works.

 

[Rheine]

Also, ToC isn't just about forecasting which manga will get canceled or not. It can also be used simply to see how our favorite manga are doing, or to look forward to upcoming CPs LCPs, covers, bonus pages, one-shots, and new serializations. It lets us know if some series are taking a break, like Black Clover this week. It's a way of displaying the genre and newbie/veteran composition in Jump.
Even if the ToC isn't a good indicator of a manga's longevity, doesn't mean it doesn't merit discussions/talks.

 

[RafGL]

While Yozakura didn't hit it until ch 15

Yes, because this was the bottom back then: Beast Children, Tokyo Shinobi Squad, Samurai 8, Double Taisei & Yui Kamio Let's Loose. Something tells me there was some stuff making it literally almost unable of dropping. Being Bottom 6 over these 5 series is not good either, no matter how much you want to push it. Coincidentally, and I wonder why, Yozakura received the Color Page on the same issue Double Taisei and Yui Kamio ended, and from that point on it never was able to leave the Bottom. I wonder why.

 

[101nemesis]

Coincidentally, and God knows why, Yozakura received the Color Page on the same issue Double Taisei and Yui Kamio ended, and from that point on it never was able to leave the Bottom. God knows why.

Thanks for the great popularity.

Don't let the low ToC placements or the poor initial sales of Yoza fool you. Yoza was hella popular and TOTALLY did not survive because of the mere state of the magazine where 7 regular series ended.

 

[Koni]

Basically what 101 said earlier:

Reminder that over the course of a little more than a year, Jump lost half of its established series and to this day they don’t have nearly enough new hits to fill the void. If it wasn’t for that, I don’t think even Undead Unluck would’ve been safe, let alone Yozakura or Magu-chan.

Shonen Jump needs long term hits. There’s two ways to get those: either a manga explodes in sales from the outset to the point where even if it declines or stagnates, it’s still making a pretty penny, or if said manga grows in sales over time. This is why I think sales trajectory is the most important aspect when evaluating a series, moreso than the sales themselves. Hell, if you start off great in sales and decline, the amount of time you have is proportional to how rapid said decline is. Just look at Robot x Laserbeam. That’s why finding manga with sales that increase per volume is more important, IMO.

Phantom Seer is currently showing growth by doing that. Magu-chan hasn’t. It makes more sense to nurture the series that grow. Who knows how far they’ll go? JJK and KNY speak for themselves.

 

[SharkBait]

Phantom Seer is currently showing growth by doing that. Magu-chan hasn’t. It makes more sense to nurture the series that grow. Who knows how far they’ll go? JJK and KNY speak for themselves.

But I didnt think Jujutsu and Kimetsu were really as low as Phantom Seer was from the start, doesn't make sense to nurture it if it is so far off from where these series were and theres no way Phantom Seer is going to be as big as either.

 

[101nemesis]

But I didnt think Jujutsu and Kimetsu were really as low as Phantom Seer was from the start, doesn't make sense to nurture it if it is so far off from where these series were and theres no way Phantom Seer is going to be as big as either.

PS Vol 2 is selling ~ Kimetsu Vol 2

Spoiler: Kimetsu Chart