Mag Talk Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Togashi would definitely get in, he's too important and influential not to.

Morita and Obata probably would, but not right away. They're more like the guys who get in the Hall of Fame after 5 or 10 years on the ballot where they keep just missing the cut off.

I don't think Watsuki even deserves to be mentioned in that company. He was a one hit wonder.

 

[StrangerAtaru]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Togashi would definitely get in, he's too important and influential not to.

It's sort of hard for Togashi in my head to get in on a first ballot, more like a second. He definitely expanded the concepts of shonen with his concepts and storylines in stuff like YYH and HxH, but compared to someone who literally wrote the rules, it just sort of seems like someone who gets in but in a couple tries. (similar reasons why I also listed Yudetamago and Miyashita as part of the second group: I see both "Kinnikuman" and "Sakigake! Otokojuku" as massively important in shonen's developments but they can't quite make it in on a first vote like Toriyama or even Kurumada...)

 

[Kaiten]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

@Ruggia: I meant Bakuman. Typo. Pay no mind.

it made me wonder: if they could induct mangaka into the museum akin to a "Rock & Roll Hall of Fame", what Jump ones would make it in? Off the top of my head, I pretty much came up with seven who would make it in with no problems:

Brilliant question. Three who must be in or invalidate the hall of fame: Toriyama, Go Nagai, and Inoue. All three have been mentioned already but they changed the medium. Toriyama for bringing action back to a lighter, more Tezuka style. Go Nagai for many, many things but did invent ecchi (Harenchi Gakuen) and mecha (Mazinger Z). Inoue changed sports manga during his time at Jump, after leaving Jump he modernized action with Vagabond. Trying reading the battle of the 70 arc without immediately realizing Kubo and Kishi stole his layout and style.

Slightly below those three but very prominent:

1. Takeshi Obata: Developed a generation of Jump mangaka and has drawn many brilliant series.
2. Hojo Tsukasa: City Hunter is one of the classic pre - DBZ series. It's spin off Angel Heart is a brilliant, under appreciated series.
3. Nakazawa Keiji: His resume is a bit slight but Barefoot Gen is one of the few gekiga influenced comics from the early days of Jump.
4. Usutu Kyousuke: Elevated the gag manga to an art form.
5. Araki Hirohiko: JoJo's may be an erratic mess, some parts are great, others not so much but it is one of the most beloved series in Japan. In reality he would be in quickly.

Maybes:

1. Buronson: Fist of the North Star is one of the defining modern shonen but what has he done since? More Fist of the North Star. Gaiden, bangai, adaptions, etc.
2. Oda: Only one series but it's 12 years long and the all time bestseller. If OP is still as good at chapter 700 he's in.
3. Katsura Masakazu: Brilliant mangaka who may fly to far under the radar. I"S, Video Girl AI, DNA^2, Zetman are all brilliant manga that don't get the hype of some of his buddies. He desrves to be in but in reality it would probably take a few tries.
4. Ryu Fujisaki: Houshin Engi, a bunch of short series, and the coolest art of the '90's. Houshin was the best thing about the dark ages. Kind of borderline based on career out put but a hall of fame would be all the better for having him.

No, but they will get in anyway:

1. Togashi Yoshihiro: An over hyped mangaka. Has made two good but not great series that get hyped as classics. I'll probably get flamed for that, but whatever. Can HxH or YuYu really be compared objectively to the best of the mangaka I listed above? Not really. But perception is greater than reality and he is viewed as a great mangaka.
2. Watsuki Nobuhiro: Rurouni Kenshin is a classic, not just when discussing Jump but all manga. Everything he has done since has been garbage. Between the classic debut and his famed assistants he would get in over my vote.

 

[StrangerAtaru]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

(reads Kaiten's entry) Interesting comments from you. A bit of feedback:

-Seems we agree regarding Toriyama, Nagai and Inoue so they really don't need any further mention. (particularly since Nagai and Inoue are so major outside Jump [and that it was more a platform to get started on] they could get in with a combination of works)
-You're really going to have to convince me a bit more that Usuta is a first-balloter. I've heard great of both Jaguar and Sexy Commando but it's really hard for me to imagine him as an immediate hall-of-famer.
-I did really consider Hojo considering he was a major influence on some matters but I do wonder if it's enough to get in immediately. "Cat's Eye" and "City Hunter" together are enough work to show what he can do (even if they're really about as against what a lot of Jump is these days...outside Sorachi or Obata), and "Angel Heart" does add to his repertoire. Could see him getting in after someone like Buronson (or maybe Buichi Terasawa, didn't include him before but "Cobra" is important enough to help him out) get in first.
-I know some see Togashi as a bit overrated but I guess he did just as much to progress shonen in an era where there was starting to be a lot of me-tooisms. He sort of took another route and became popular in an era of DB and is still influencial enough that editors bow down to him and his audience continues to buy his works. Personally I think for YYH alone he probably could make it eventually.
-I see you added Fujisaki...but I guess in some ways that's more a personal preference. I mean personally I could sort of see both Okano and Sawai and major influences on their eras but sort of have a hard time of either of them making it in too quickly into that sort of hall-of-fame place...but that's just talking logically I guess.

 

[Kaiten]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

-Fujisaki was definitely a personal choice. I like freaks. Houshin Engi is like no other shonen manga of the last fifteen years. He probably doesn't deserve it but is to much fun not to mention.
-I rated Tojo so high as he is a first rate story teller. His reputation in the west isn't as high as some of his contemporaries but he developed into a truly great mangaka. Not a first ballot choice, definitely a second.
-Usuta is one of those sneaky ones who I believe will be more appreciated ten years from now then he is today. He does such brilliant work in a genre that generally is about a few quick laughs rather than high quality. When compared to most other short gag/yonkoma Jaguar is stunning. If nothing else he needs to join Azuma and Sakuraba as representatives of gag.
-My problem with Togashi is context. Any one he enters the hall has to be compared to every other mangaka who is inducted. I just don't think he compares well to Inoue, Urasawa, (pre - Inuyasha) Rumiko Takahashi, or Adachi as storytellers. I'm not convinced of his influence on other action mangaka. I can see a lot of Fujisaki's style in Bleach, especially the arrancar. Inoue's panel work in Vagabond is the blueprint for the layout of virtually every action series since it debuted. Oda has imitators already. I don't see Togashi's influence in anything. I give him major points for art, Hunter x Hunter and YuYu have such unique styles that work so well with what he is doing. But art is only one side of the story. I think his continued pwning of the editorial staff has more to do with Yen and reputation than influence. Or maybe he's such a nice guy they over look him taking a year off.

 

[led_zeppelin]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Maybes:

1. Buronson: Fist of the North Star is one of the defining modern shonen but what has he done since? More Fist of the North Star. Gaiden, bangai, adaptions, etc.

i'm not a huge Buronson Fan, but HnK is not the only thing that the guy made, after that he made a huge classic like Sanctuary (and other minors things like "king of the wolves" or "strain")

 

[StrangerAtaru]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

-My problem with Togashi is context. Any one he enters the hall has to be compared to every other mangaka who is inducted. I just don't think he compares well to Inoue, Urasawa, (pre - Inuyasha) Rumiko Takahashi, or Adachi as storytellers. I'm not convinced of his influence on other action mangaka. I can see a lot of Fujisaki's style in Bleach, especially the arrancar. Inoue's panel work in Vagabond is the blueprint for the layout of virtually every action series since it debuted. Oda has imitators already. I don't see Togashi's influence in anything. I give him major points for art, Hunter x Hunter and YuYu have such unique styles that work so well with what he is doing. But art is only one side of the story. I think his continued pwning of the editorial staff has more to do with Yen and reputation than influence. Or maybe he's such a nice guy they over look him taking a year off.

I think that somehow Togashi and Anzai (if we use Sunday in conjunction) are two mangaka that sort of did similar aspects in moving forwards in taking advantage or subverting the concepts of shonen. They worked within their means to take concepts that were already known and used them in new or unusual or peculiar ways that made it even more interesting than it already was. To tell the truth, I know you may think Togashi is overrated but I think that he is probably just as important to telling the tale of Jump in the last 20 years or so as Inoue or Oda. (though as I said before: Oda's already in but I rather he gets no accolades until the final, final end of OP is in sight...I'm not doubting him, I just want him to do what he does best)

And thanks for giving a bit more towards Usuta, I guess he's one we won't appreciate until Jaguar is over and he's moved on.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Wow, I think I probably speak for the new jump generation (despite my age...) when I say that I've never heard of any of these guys (Other than Togashi and Toriyama of course.) Though Sorachi mentioned Buronson in Gintama once...same for Jojo...and...wait. Could Gintama be used as a gateway to classic Jump? I mean Sorachi references it so much that...that...

..My god, Gintama as a Jump entry education course. Can you imagine the possibilities?

(Sorry for wasted post, this is 667. Noooo need for me to have 666 as my last post for the day. :-P)

 

[StrangerAtaru]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Wow, I think I probably speak for the new jump generation (despite my age...) when I say that I've never heard of any of these guys (Other than Togashi and Toriyama of course.) Though Sorachi mentioned Buronson in Gintama once...same for Jojo...and...wait. Could Gintama be used as a gateway to classic Jump? I mean Sorachi references it so much that...that...

..My god, Gintama as a Jump entry education course. Can you imagine the possibilities?

(Sorry for wasted post, this is 667. Noooo need for me to have 666 as my last post for the day. :-P)

Gintama is closer to something akin to a series by Buronson or Hojo than it is to some of the Jump series of the modern era. I know Sorachi also mentioned Kurumada as a slight influence...sure it's no Golgo but at least he knows where he has learned a bit of his trade.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Gintama is closer to something akin to a series by Buronson or Hojo than it is to some of the Jump series of the modern era. I know Sorachi also mentioned Kurumada as a slight influence...sure it's no Golgo but at least he knows where he has learned a bit of his trade.

I guess I'm sort of a spoiled brat of sorts....I didnt' really start to learn about the men behind the pages until I came here in 2006. And I'm far too caught up chasing the present to really go to the past. I know I know, shame on me. But It is an interesting question Ataru. I'd like to see who'd make it in myself.

 

[ruggia]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

I say Togashi gets it only if he finishes HxH. His laziness and frequent hiatus makes me not want him to get recognized for anything even though YuYu and HxH were both great series.

Love to see Watsuki get it, although Kenshin is the only series that is worth recognizing. He did train Oda and mangaka of Shaman King, but he is a bit weak.

 

[Rejuvenation]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Most obvious one is Toriyama.

Watsuki would probably get in much later than some of the others mentioned. While I have enjoyed his post Kenshin works (Busou Renkin, Embalming, still need to read GBW) none of them really got to the same level of popularity or influence as his first work. If Watsuki spawns something else that can reach half of Kenshin's success he would have an easier time being considered.

I have to agree with StrangerAtaru and Kaiten on the likes of Inoue. Also Hirohiko. I think they are likely to be among the first or second generation to get in should such a thing ever happen.

Concerning Togashi, I believe he does get over hyped too but he does deserve a spot eventually. Being part of the Golden Age big 3 with Yu Yu Hakusho and HunterXHunter's success before his laziness will get him that far.

Kurumada and Bronson continue to spawn their spin-offs of their original big successes since they started. Some may call it milking a series for all its worth but I believe their original series would get them in anyway.

Takeshi Obata had a big hand in spawning a strong generation of Jump mangaka who in turn spawned their own. Has had more than one hit series within WSJ and that sets him apart from others who only have one or continue to make spin offs of their original series.

Oda would earn a spot as well though I agree that it should be after he finishes One Piece.

Akimoto has the longest running series in history with no hiatuses. That gets him in automatically.

 

[user216]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

if the list becomes inclusive then kishi might have a chance;not for being great but because he introduced many westerners to manga
him being young will likely prevent it despite his influence

 

[Kaiten]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Kishi isn't young and he's been serialized for a decade. And no, Kishi should never be memorialized in the same building as Tezuka, Urasawa, Toriyama, Adachi, Fujiko F Fujia et al. He should get a plaque for following DBZ as the big international hit. He's a part of manga history but definitely not one of the all time greatest mangaka.

Sorachi could earn it some day but for how great a series Gintama is it's his first serialization and not quite five years old. He needs more time.

 

[Koshi_Inaba]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

While he never worked for Jump (I think?), there's one person that's a must to be inducted: Ishinomori Shotaro. That guy is a legend, he created Kamen Rider for god sake! Not to mention that's not his only achievement, just look at his wikipedia page. In my opinion, he is just as influential and legendary as Tezuka. Even got inducted into Guinness World Record for most comics published by one author.

 

[Mr. Prince]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Hehe, once again a very fun question.
Personally, I feel like I'll have to agree with you guys rather than throwing in new names. (Sucks to be late... )

Nagai, Toriyama and Inoue are safe bets, it seems. Kurumada must be in there as well. Same goes IMO for Hara (damn, how I love his art), Araki, Hojo and Katsura. Akimoto and Togashi would get in easily.

Other guys I'd love to see in there but with whom I feel like they would need some time are Morita (I'm a Morita fanboy), Obata, Usuta and Oda.

 

[Koshi_Inaba]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

IIRC, wasn't Buronson a writer, not an artist? He always collaborated with an artist for his work, Hokuto no Ken, Heat, Sanctuary, etc...

 

[Finestela]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

By the supposedly retired Himajin:

178 ：名無しさんの次レスにご期待下さい ：sage ：2009/11/04(水) 17:42:30 (p)ID:+zQi18bIO(3)
ねこ（表紙 巻頭）
ぬるぽ
わんぴ
黒子（センタ）
銀玉
鰤
いぬまる
ぬるり
サイレン
りぼん
こち亀
バクマン
保健室
べるぜ
わじマニア
めだか
スケット
リリ
あね
鍵人（最終回）
ジャガー

2009-50

Neko Wappo (Cover, Lead CP)
Naruto
One Piece
Kuroko (CP)
Gintama (Confirmed not to have CP this issue)
Bleach
Inumaru
Mago
Psyren
Reborn
Kochi Kame
Bakuman
Shinigami
Beelz
Wajimania
Medaka
Sket Dance
Lili-Dog
Ane-Doki
Kagijin (The End)
Jaguar

 

[Koshi_Inaba]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

Mago just keep kicking ass, if only Bleach is lower and it's kinda weird considering that Mago's ranking is from the chapter with the lead color, I thought it would be higher. A little bit sad at Bakuman dropping

 

[Finestela]

Re: Weekly Shounen Jump [2009] - Discussion & TOC Talk v.3

IIRC, wasn't Buronson a writer, not an artist? He always collaborated with an artist for his work, Hokuto no Ken, Heat, Sanctuary, etc...

Yep, from my understanding, he was never the artist (under either of his two pen names)