Character Will Yukimura leave??

[Ninomiya]

Closed Eyes is definitely considered to be a special move, yes. However, may I ask in exactly what ways you see his rallying improve in closed eyes?

Sorta like this kinda way here where he rallies in a way that his movement gives off no signals to his opponent.

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 PM ----------

Well, Atobe actually got 6 tech now. So I don't see someone pressuring another with exact same amount of tech point. So, from what we've seen, I don't think Irie can prevent it.

Indeed, but Irie was trolling, and Akiba was a 4 in Technique.
If Irie was trolling with Akiba, then its very likely that he was playing Atobe with less Technique than when he was facing Akiba clearly.
So Irie was probably playing 4 in Technique at the maximum.
So its still extremely unclear on how difficult it is to deter Atobe from hitting his AK.
We know he definitely can't spam it like Fuji spams 5thCounter for example though.

 

[-Ken-]

Yeah, about that, I've been thinking about this one for a bit. If we're taking this line of thought to its conclusion, since we didn't see anything of the match in question and didn't hear of any moves used either, the result should be considered as a comparison between their stats, shouldn't it?

You're right. Sure, it can be consider. But I'm just saying that there's a lot more chance that there is something wrong with Fuji stats than that there is something going on with Marui/Bunta match, wouldn't you agree? At least there's some official canon material to doubt Fuji stat, unlike Marui/Bunta match score, for doubting just for the sake of doubting.

Furthermore if your argument is that Fuji's stats are incorrect because he hasn't faced a strong enough opponent to draw out all of his strength, shouldn't your Marui/Jackal comparison use Marui as baseline and raise Jackal to that level, not the other way around? After all, Marui faced No. 7 and 8 of the nation whereas Jackal hasn't even faced anyone in the top 20.

On this, however, sure, if Marui doesn't get stomp by G10 solo with his "perfect partner" when they go 100%, sure. It make it look even worse when one of the other G10 give out the weakness of the other G10 already, that can 100% put the match in their favor if they manage to do it early. Also, if Kimijima negotiation was "let him win the match" instead of "please kick Tohno (also read, my partner) butt", then it's also another story. In the other word, Kimijima negotiation goal hinder him from being the match if it's carry out. Not only that, giving his partner weakness away increase the opponent advantage, even.

More importantly, if Jackal and Marui is that high in singles, and also known as #1 pair in National, and still lose to Golden Pair. That really should put Golden Pair very high up the tier. However, we know that Marui+Kite, which is a better pair, got stomp by #7-8 pair. And we also know that Golden Pair also doesn't match up to #15-16 pair. That puts Marui+Jackal below #15-16 pair as well.

I do put Marui+Jackal in the same tier in singles. I don't know which tier yet. But it's above Kikumaru and Oishi for sure. They prove to be stronger by stomping golden pair pre-syncho.

Closed Eyes is definitely considered to be a special move, yes. However, may I ask in exactly what ways you see his rallying improve in closed eyes?

On Fuji closed eyes, it really does implies it for me. Fuji was losing to Niou Tezuka in rally before (where he doesn't use Saiki. And I don't think anything show that Saiki reduce your rally skill.). When Fuji use closed eyes, he stomp Niou Tezuka in rally.

Of course, let's go back to the other time we saw closed eyes used as well. Fuji stated that without using it, he wouldn't have won. That should shows that closed eyes improve Fuji skill as well. At first, he didn't play well with it, so it's more of a handicap similar to Fuwa's "closed eyes". But toward the end, it push him to another level, as stated as he himself and Ryuuzaki as well.

And of course, what Airgrimes say about this tech is true as well.

 

[Kaoz]

You're right. Sure, it can be consider. But I'm just saying that there's a lot more chance that there is something wrong with Fuji stats than that there is something going on with Marui/Bunta match, wouldn't you agree? At least there's some official canon material to doubt Fuji stat, unlike Marui/Bunta match score, for doubting just for the sake of doubting.

No, I disagree that it's doubting for the sake of doubting. If we roll with the idea that Konomi shows or talks about all important instances of a match on-panel and also applies bonuses based on what he's showing, then the conclusion that the result of Marui vs Jackal is based purely on stats is actually more logical than thinking that they used Myougi and Nezumi HanaBEAT respectively.

And yes, there is canon material for Fuji hiding his true abilities, but like I said, the last instance of that actually being relevant was a long time ago (I assume you haven't found any more recent ones at least), but not everything stays the same as the series progresses.
A long time ago, Tetsu's Hadokyuu was considered to be a really powerful shot, then during the nationals Gin came along and now Tetsu's Hadokyuu isn't all that good anymore. I don't feel like citing something from the Tokyo tournament is all that relevant anymore, especially if you consider that Inui implied he's very much capable of gathering Fuji's true data at a later point.

I mean, there is a possibility, but unless Kurobe's comments give us reason to doubt the stats, I don't feel it's significant enough to be taken into account.

On this, however, sure, if Marui doesn't get stomp by G10 solo with his "perfect partner" when they go 100%, sure. It make it look even worse when one of the other G10 give out the weakness of the other G10 already, that can 100% put the match in their favor if they manage to do it early.

Isn't this irrelevant though? If both Kimijima and Tohno had gone all out from the start, Marui and Kite might not have been able to take a single game, but that doesn't change my point that, according to your reasoning, Marui's stats were taken more recently and against a stronger opponent than Jackal's and that as a result, Jackal should be raised to Marui's level and not the other way around.

On Fuji closed eyes, it really does implies it for me. Fuji was losing to Niou Tezuka in rally before (where he doesn't use Saiki. And I don't think anything show that Saiki reduce your rally skill.). When Fuji use closed eyes, he stomp Niou Tezuka in rally.

Well, consider this. Fuji was probably mentally shaken from going up against Tezuka all of a sudden, so even if he had the ability to outplay Niou all along, he wasn't focused enough to do so. Closed Eyes merely helped him regain his composure, and that was also the game during which he realized that the illusion isn't perfect at all.
Against Akaya, in addition to sharpening his senses, it seemed to increase his motivation towards victory.

Basically, I certainly do agree that Closed Eyes gives Fuji a boost, but I believe that it's of mental nature, and that his other stats aren't affected.

 

[-Ken-]

No, I disagree that it's doubting for the sake of doubting. If we roll with the idea that Konomi shows or talks about all important instances of a match on-panel and also applies bonuses based on what he's showing, then the conclusion that the result of Marui vs Jackal is based purely on stats is actually more logical than thinking that they used Myougi and Nezumi HanaBEAT respectively.

Perhaps, but that would show that Marui outside of volley isn't that good, if he can't rally with the guy with lower base stats than his own. It make sense if you look at his playstyle, though. I think you'll have a better luck already including the move if you want to show that Marui is a fine singles player, actually. So it's either Marui got that close score with Jackal despite the lead in stats he has, or Marui got that close score with Jackal despite him pulling everything that he have. Either argument is not going to help Marui in his ranking that much.

If you disagree that it's the doubt for the sake of doubting, in that case, please show some canon material that suggest something "extra" could happen in that match. Otherwise, that's just doubting everything that doesn't get show on scene. That's what I call doubting for the sake of doubting.

And yes, there is canon material for Fuji hiding his true abilities, but like I said, the last instance of that actually being relevant was a long time ago (I assume you haven't found any more recent ones at least), but not everything stays the same as the series progresses.
A long time ago, Tetsu's Hadokyuu was considered to be a really powerful shot, then during the nationals Gin came along and now Tetsu's Hadokyuu isn't all that good anymore. I don't feel like citing something from the Tokyo tournament is all that relevant anymore, especially if you consider that Inui implied he's very much capable of gathering Fuji's true data at a later point.

I mean, there is a possibility, but unless Kurobe's comments give us reason to doubt the stats, I don't feel it's significant enough to be taken into account.

Well, at least there is some canon material. That's all I'm saying.

Isn't this irrelevant though? If both Kimijima and Tohno had gone all out from the start, Marui and Kite might not have been able to take a single game, but that doesn't change my point that, according to your reasoning, Marui's stats were taken more recently and against a stronger opponent than Jackal's and that as a result, Jackal should be raised to Marui's level and not the other way around.

Well, so 6-0 is a hard result to measure from. It does change the point. Byoudonin probably 6-0 both Tachibana and Horio. It actually make it really hard to judge the score.

And I do agree that Jackal should be the same level as Marui. It's what I been saying this whole time. But even you agree that Marui last upgrade was kinda useless in singles. So if you take that update out, Marui actually look to be the same level as what happen when he play Jackal, to be honest. I'll put him on 1st court level player in doubles, and maybe even 11-20 1st stringer, if it's in doubles. But singles wise, I think he pale in comparison to like, Momoshiro, Kaidoh, Inui, Yanagi, or Yagyuu for example.

Well, consider this. Fuji was probably mentally shaken from going up against Tezuka all of a sudden, so even if he had the ability to outplay Niou all along, he wasn't focused enough to do so. Closed Eyes merely helped him regain his composure, and that was also the game during which he realized that the illusion isn't perfect at all.
Against Akaya, in addition to sharpening his senses, it seemed to increase his motivation towards victory.

Basically, I certainly do agree that Closed Eyes gives Fuji a boost, but I believe that it's of mental nature, and that his other stats aren't affected.

I do hope to add that closed eyes that "doesn't allow the opponent to read his next move" should also have fair effects on Tezuka. Tezuka is one of the few players that certainly confirm to read his opponent next move, as shown in his match with Yamato. This should nerf Tezuka a fair amount as well.

 

[Kaoz]

Perhaps, but that would show that Marui outside of volley isn't that good, if he can't rally with the guy with lower base stats than his own. It make sense if you look at his playstyle, though. I think you'll have a better luck already including the move if you want to show that Marui is a fine singles player, actually. So it's either Marui got that close score with Jackal despite the lead in stats he has, or Marui got that close score with Jackal despite him pulling everything that he have. Either argument is not going to help Marui in his ranking that much.

Alternatively Marui grew more than Jackal, or if we're basing it on who they played against, Jackal's stats should actually be 17 as well.

If you disagree that it's the doubt for the sake of doubting, in that case, please show some canon material that suggest something "extra" could happen in that match. Otherwise, that's just doubting everything that doesn't get show on scene. That's what I call doubting for the sake of doubting.

I don't see why I'm the one who has to prove anything here. Since you're the one who claims that something happened we didn't get to see (Marui using Myougi, Jackal using Nezumi), you're the one who should have to support that argument in some way.

I do hope to add that closed eyes that "doesn't allow the opponent to read his next move" should also have fair effects on Tezuka. Tezuka is one of the few players that certainly confirm to read his opponent next move, as shown in his match with Yamato. This should nerf Tezuka a fair amount as well.

If we're talking about Nationals!Tezuka, that's certainly a valid argument. However if we're just talking about the current Tezuka without TnK, he overcame that problem as shown by him breaking GUYU without TnK.

 

[-Ken-]

Alternatively Marui grew more than Jackal, or if we're basing it on who they played against, Jackal's stats should actually be 17 as well.

There's no page in the manga that support Marui improve more than Jackal.

In the case that you want to base it on who they are playing against and boost Jackal stats, sure. In that case, Fuji have a very real chance of beating Tezuka.

I don't see why I'm the one who has to prove anything here. Since you're the one who claims that something happened we didn't get to see (Marui using Myougi, Jackal using Nezumi), you're the one who should have to support that argument in some way.

Now, that's something I don't see that I have to be the one with evidence. We saw the score of two player. You then assume that something happen. I assume they play normally and try to beat each other. You're the one that claim that something happen in the match that make score not the representative of the player skill. Any proof why they might not be going all out? Marui certainly just say to send Jackal home. He doesn't care. I think you're the one that have to prove something.

If I'm claiming that Marui using Myougi, Jackal using Nezumi, you're claiming that they doesn't use those move. How is "they didn't use those move" is not "something happened we didn't get to see"? It is. If anything, Marui and Jackal conversation that they are going to try win to take the other side out. Not using their move would be going easy on their opponent, and risk losing.

Since it seem like we're both are trying to claim something that's not been prove that happen in the match, let's look at every other match ever. In the case that the player does have a special move, he tends to show use at least 1 of them in every match that they been in. The probabilities is in my favor by a huge amount by far. Do you want me to do the exact number? Let me know.

Either way, even if I don't have proof. It would just shows that rally wise, Jackal can play evenly with Marui even with Marui superior stats. This argument doesn't help showing Marui skill at all. If no move is use, it just mean that anyone with stats equal or higher than Jackal can match or beat Marui in rally.

If we're talking about Nationals!Tezuka, that's certainly a valid argument. However if we're just talking about the current Tezuka without TnK, he overcame that problem as shown by him breaking GUYU without TnK.

Sure, there's a chance he overcome the unpredictable part of it. From what we seen, he still didn't read it, he just try to use his base stats to cover for it. If you combine that with the boost that Fuji gain, I think Tezuka winning 6-1 or 6-0 is a stretch by a fair amount. Especially if you would consider it to be best of 3. My purpose is not to say Fuji stomp Tezuka. But that he wouldn't get stomp and that he stand a chance.

 

[Ninomiya]

Basically, I certainly do agree that Closed Eyes gives Fuji a boost, but I believe that it's of mental nature, and that his other stats aren't affected.

I wouldn't go that far. It clearly says here has improved his accuracy when hitting the ball through CE.

 

[Kaoz]

There's no page in the manga that support Marui improve more than Jackal.

There isn't, but there is proof that different people can improve at different rates without such a note being made. In the time between the team shuffle and the fanbook stats, Atobe's stats increased by 5, Tezuka's by 4.5, Shiraishi's by 2.5, Akaya's by 1.5 and Krauser's by 0.
So if you look at the result from back then and then at the gap there is in stats right now, if anything, Marui having improved more is the conclusion you would arrive at.

You then assume that something happen.

If I'm claiming that Marui using Myougi, Jackal using Nezumi, you're claiming that they doesn't use those move. How is "they didn't use those move" is not "something happened we didn't get to see"?

It's the opposite, I'm saying nothing happened.

How exactly would you show someone not doing something? You'd have to show literally every shot of the match for that, which is obviously not doable.

Since it seem like we're both are trying to claim something that's not been prove that happen in the match, let's look at every other match ever. In the case that the player does have a special move, he tends to show use at least 1 of them in every match that they been in. The probabilities is in my favor by a huge amount by far. Do you want me to do the exact number? Let me know.

I don't care about probabilities, even if it happened 99 out of 100 matches before, it's no proof that it happened in this match as well. And in all of those instances, Konomi actually found it was worth his time to add a page to let us know what moves were used.

He added multiple pages in the volume for the elimination tiebreaks, so surely if something happened in this match as well, he would have put it in.

Again, I claim that nothing happened that we didn't get to see or hear about. The only proof I need for that is to show you every page of the relevant chapters where you will in fact find that nothing was shown or said.

Either way, even if I don't have proof. It would just shows that rally wise, Jackal can play evenly with Marui even with Marui superior stats. This argument doesn't help showing Marui skill at all. If no move is use, it just mean that anyone with stats equal or higher than Jackal can match or beat Marui in rally.

Except it still ignores some crucial points, regardless of whether you use your logic or mine.

If we're using my argument, it's very possible that Marui improved by a greater amount than Jackal. And I furthermore claim that I don't need a page which explicitly supports this because the evidence we have available already proves that people improve at different rates without it being specifically mentioned.

If we're using your argument, then it's certainly true that someone with Jackal's stats can rally evenly with Marui, but it also means that you should be rating Jackal higher than his stats, rather than rating Marui lower, because Marui's abilities were tested against a tougher opponent.

Sure, there's a chance he overcome the unpredictable part of it. From what we seen, he still didn't read it, he just try to use his base stats to cover for it.

I don't understand this bit. It was said that Tezuka completely broke through GUYU, a move that used him predicting his opponent's moves against him. Why should Fuji's unpredictable attacks be treated differently?

---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------

I wouldn't go that far. It clearly says here has improved his accuracy when hitting the ball through CE.

The way I read that, it refers to him being able to actually hit the ball without seeing it.

 

[-Ken-]

There isn't, but there is proof that different people can improve at different rates without such a note being made. In the time between the team shuffle and the fanbook stats, Atobe's stats increased by 5, Tezuka's by 4.5, Shiraishi's by 2.5, Akaya's by 1.5 and Krauser's by 0.
So if you look at the result from back then and then at the gap there is in stats right now, if anything, Marui having improved more is the conclusion you would arrive at.

So, there isn't a proof that Marui grow at different rate. Why wouldn't Jackal be the one to improve more then? He undergo mountain training, which is mention by various players to be very effective at pushing your skill up.

It's the opposite, I'm saying nothing happened.

How exactly would you show someone not doing something? You'd have to show literally every shot of the match for that, which is obviously not doable.

So, you can't prove it, you mean? Whether or not you like to admit it, you're assuming as much as I do. If you look at the probabiities, you basically admitting that even with 99/100 chance of my assumption being right, there's no proof? Sure. That surely looks like a good chance to me.

I don't care about probabilities, even if it happened 99 out of 100 matches before, it's no proof that it happened in this match as well. And in all of those instances, Konomi actually found it was worth his time to add a page to let us know what moves were used.

He added multiple pages in the volume for the elimination tiebreaks, so surely if something happened in this match as well, he would have put it in.

Yes, so in the other word, nothing special happen. And Marui won only by slight margin. There isn't anything that give Jackal any extra benefits that any other player wouldn't have get.

And the pages in the volume and pages in here is to show that "something special" happen in the match. If there's nothing to be note and they both just play normally, why should there be a need for the match to be shown?

Again, I claim that nothing happened that we didn't get to see or hear about. The only proof I need for that is to show you every page of the relevant chapters where you will in fact find that nothing was shown or said.

If nothing is shown, why wouldn't it be right to assume that Marui and Jackal both play their best already? Is there any reason why they might not be doing it seriously? Really, is there any reason at all?

And there is a proof that Marui want to send Jackal home and vice versa, really.

If we're using my argument, it's very possible that Marui improved by a greater amount than Jackal. And I furthermore claim that I don't need a page which explicitly supports this because the evidence we have available already proves that people improve at different rates without it being specifically mentioned.

Again, you say don't care about how the other match and the player move in them went. So I'll just say here that it's a different player, and prove nothing about Marui and Jackal growth rate as well.

If we're using your argument, then it's certainly true that someone with Jackal's stats can rally evenly with Marui, but it also means that you should be rating Jackal higher than his stats, rather than rating Marui lower, because Marui's abilities were tested against a tougher opponent.

Which he fails miserably against that tougher opponents, and he's playing doubles, which is where he truly shine. And his opponents are not using any move that gain a boost in doubles at all.

I don't understand this bit. It was said that Tezuka completely broke through GUYU, a move that used him predicting his opponent's moves against him. Why should Fuji's unpredictable attacks be treated differently?

Because Fuji closed eyes is not only unpredictable?

 

[Kaoz]

So, there isn't a proof that Marui grow at different rate. Why wouldn't Jackal be the one to improve more then? He undergo mountain training, which is mention by various players to be very effective at pushing your skill up.

I don't know, maybe it's because you are correct in saying that they were close in one way or another (we agree on this part, the only difference is that you include special moves and I don't), and now they don't seem to be. Why is the conclusion here that Marui is worse than his stats suggest?

And camp training is also mentioned as effective for improving, so what?

Whether or not you like to admit it, you're assuming as much as I do.

I don't see how I do. I am assuming what we've been shown, you're assuming something we haven't been shown. Like I said, I can easily prove my point by looking through the manga and seeing that there's nothing else.

And the pages in the volume and pages in here is to show that "something special" happen in the match. If there's nothing to be note and they both just play normally, why should there be a need for the match to be shown?

Why did we get to see scenes from Oshitari vs Mukahi, Krauser vs Sakata, Shishido vs Ootori or Tacihbana vs Kadowaki then? Absolutely nothing special happened there, they all battled with the skills they had already shown during the nationals.

If nothing is shown, why wouldn't it be right to assume that Marui and Jackal both play their best already? Is there any reason why they might not be doing it seriously? Really, is there any reason at all?

Characters don't necessarily use all the special moves they have access to in all of their matches. Especially when someone is winning without doing anything special, they are less likely to bring out their full strength.

Which he fails miserably against that tougher opponents, and he's playing doubles, which is where he truly shine. And his opponents are not using any move that gain a boost in doubles at all.

Why does this matter? Like, how does this at all relate to the argument that Marui's stats are based on that match and Jackal's on a match against a weaker opponent?

Because Fuji closed eyes is not only unpredictable?

Well, what else is he then? So far that's the only thing you or Airgrimes actually brought up.

 

[Ninomiya]

Well, what else is he then? So far that's the only thing you or Airgrimes actually brought up.

Not true.
Someone stated he has improved his sensitivity and accuracy when hitting, its really unlikely from this statement that CE is only a Mental stat boost.
Things like Sensitivity and accuracy when hitting the ball is surely Technique.
For Ryuzaki to say "He has surpassed even Tezuka", surely hints towards it being more than Fuji getting Mentally stronger.

 

[Kaoz]

Someone stated he has improved his sensitivity and accuracy when hitting, its really unlikely from this statement that CE is only a Mental stat boost.

We're still talking about the page you linked, right? Look at the pages before that one, please, I really think they're talking about him being able to actually hit a ball without seeing it. Not that his shots have become any more accurate than they were when he played with his eyes open.

"How can someone whose eyes cannot see be... able to play like that!?", "Is such a thing... even possible...?"

 

[Ninomiya]

"How can someone whose eyes cannot see be... able to play like that!?", "Is such a thing... even possible...?"

Look at the very next page. Why would Ryuzaki say Fuji has "surpassed even Tezuka" just by looking at the way he hits the ball?
That's a ridiculously huge statement in PoT.
The entire PoT tier ranking system is nearly based around Tezuka. With Shiraishi and Chitose using words like "Tezuka-level", and the constant talking of "Surpassing Tezuka".
I feel that statement couldn't have just been talking about Fuji's Mental statement.

 

[Kaoz]

Look at the very next page. Why would Ryuzaki say Fuji has "surpassed even Tezuka" just by looking at the way he hits the ball?
That's a ridiculously huge statement in PoT.
The entire PoT tier ranking system is nearly based around Tezuka. With Shiraishi and Chitose using words like "Tezuka-level", and the constant talking of "Surpassing Tezuka".
I feel that statement couldn't have just been talking about Fuji's Mental statement.

Well, I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think it's actually that big of a deal at that point in the story. Remember that all of Rikkai was described as Tezuka-level, and by extension, Inui reached Tezuka's level by beating Renji and Ryoma surpassed it by beating Sanada. And more or less immediately afterwards, Tezuka just went up to the next level and left everyone else in the dust.
It's an impressive achievement of course, but at the end of the Kanto arc, Tezuka probably had the worst tier standing in his entire existence with ten other guys being on the same level or higher.

 

[Philia]

Fuji used CE to Counter Saiki. With Closed Eyes he had to play instinctively so his next move couldn't be read with saiki. I don't think it gives a major stat boost. When Niou turned Shiraishi, Fuji didn't use CE anymore.

 

[Ninomiya]

Fuji used CE to Counter Saiki. With Closed Eyes he had to play instinctively so his next move couldn't be read with saiki. I don't think it gives a major stat boost. When Niou turned Shiraishi, Fuji didn't use CE anymore.

Except Fuji also used CE against Kirihara, and that wasn't to counter any Prediction based abilities so it really isn't as simple as that.

 

[Kaoz]

Except Fuji also used CE against Kirihara, and that wasn't to counter any Prediction based abilities so it really isn't as simple as that.

Well, he literally couldn't see. So in that sense he was countering his blindness.

 

[Ravelt]

I do think CE does boost his stat decisively aside from what have been said already like he's sensitivity being improved to an even higher level and being unpredictable.

Isn't Fuji who fought Niou!Tezuka before using CE the same Fuji at the end of his match against Shiraishi? If it is then...

Spoiler

Based from that panel, from what Shiraishi said, there is a significant boost in stats using CE.

 

[Hardy]

Shiraishi never saw Fuji using CE though, right?

I'm wondering now, Fuji has ever used it to boost his stats? As far as I remember it, he used CE to counter Saiki and when he was blind.

 

[Kaoz]

He has never used CE outside of those two instances if that's what you're asking.