Character Will Yukimura leave??

[Philia]

Shiraishi never saw Fuji using CE though, right?

I'm wondering now, Fuji has ever used it to boost his stats? As far as I remember it, he used CE to counter Saiki and when he was blind.

Spot on . Closed eye is a tech which is useful under some definite circumstances. Such as countering saiki & blindness. It doesn't increase his stats. If it did he would've used CE against Tezuka before nationals & against Shiraishi during nationals.

 

[Ninomiya]

Spot on . Closed eye is a tech which is useful under some definite circumstances. Such as countering saiki & blindness. It doesn't increase his stats. If it did he would've used CE against Tezuka before nationals & against Shiraishi during nationals.

Eh?
Also, CE was something he somehow accessed in a pinch, like how many characters access a new state for the first time. Its only in a pinch and they need to be pushed again to access it properly.
Although I do concede that its odd he didn't bring it out against Shiraishi.

To say CE "doesn't boost stats" at all is a big statement too. Prior to the match he hadn't surpassed Tezuka. After using CE he had "Surpassed Tezuka".
This is back at Kanto for instance. Regardless of Tezuka's standing, for him to have climbed above someone suggests some kind of stat lift I think.

 

[Hardy]

Who said that?

Oh, Ryuzaki... moving on.

Lol, seriously, she prolly said that because Tezuka wouldn't be able to do something like CE... or because Fuji showed that he was better than the Tezuka that was as strong as the weakest Rikkai member... or because plot, I dunno.

 

[Philia]

Eh?
Also, CE was something he somehow accessed in a pinch, like how many characters access a new state for the first time. Its only in a pinch and they need to be pushed again to access it properly.
Although I do concede that its odd he didn't bring it out against Shiraishi.

To say CE "doesn't boost stats" at all is a big statement too. Prior to the match he hadn't surpassed Tezuka. After using CE he had "Surpassed Tezuka".
This is back at Kanto for instance. Regardless of Tezuka's standing, for him to have climbed above someone suggests some kind of stat lift I think.

Fuji actually raised his game playing Shiraishi. Unfortunately his last shot didn't landed accurately. He didn't get an upgrade against Niou. He showed what he acquired playing Shiraishi. He didn't surpassed Tezuka using CE. He only countered saiki using CE which he had before. Niou probably couldn't use or didn't wanted to risk himself using Hyakuren & Tezuka Phantom after five games. So Niou only had saiki. Fuji used CE to counter it. Thats how he won. Although Sumire-chan said Fuji surpassed Tezuka its almost like saying Nanjirou that Ryoma has reached his level. Which Sumire-chan did after Ryoma activated TMnk.

 

[Ninomiya]

Who said that?

Oh, Ryuzaki... moving on.

Lol, seriously, she prolly said that because Tezuka wouldn't be able to do something like CE... or because Fuji showed that he was better than the Tezuka that was as strong as the weakest Rikkai member... or because plot, I dunno.

I agree with both things in bold.
I've been a bit shaky on Ryuzaki's words before.

 

[Ravelt]

On Fuji closed eyes, it really does implies it for me. Fuji was losing to Niou Tezuka in rally before (where he doesn't use Saiki. And I don't think anything show that Saiki reduce your rally skill.). When Fuji use closed eyes, he stomp Niou Tezuka in rally.

Of course, let's go back to the other time we saw closed eyes used as well. Fuji stated that without using it, he wouldn't have won. That should shows that closed eyes improve Fuji skill as well. At first, he didn't play well with it, so it's more of a handicap similar to Fuwa's "closed eyes". But toward the end, it push him to another level, as stated as he himself and Ryuuzaki as well.

And of course, what Airgrimes say about this tech is true as well.

I can't believe I've missed this, I agree to this.
Niou!Tezuka was outrallying Fuji prior to CE and I don't think it's because of him being mentally shaken (maybe at first he was) nor not being focused enough since Fuji himself stated that he's been looking forward to play against Tezuka, if anything it should boost (it did) his motivation ergo making him play better.

Spoiler

After that Fuji was able to rally against Niou!Tezuka equally (barely), Niou!Tezuka>=Motivated Fuji (Niou!Tezuka was still better).

Even if Saiki was sealed, Niou!Tezuka was still better than Fuji, if CE only counters Saiki, Niou!Tezuka should still be better at rallying than Fuji, but as we see with CE, Niou!Tezuka wasn't able to retaliate in any form, he wasn't able to get a score off from Fuji.

So based from that, CE should give Fuji a boost, he went from being stomped by Niou!Tezuka to destroying Niou!Tezuka, there is a definite stat increase there.

I think the reason he wasn't able to use CE against Shiraishi is because he hasn't mastered it yet ergo not able to use it at will. Against Kirihara, he wasn't able to use at will, he was forced to play blind and later unlocked CE and against Niou!Tezuka, he was able to use it at will.

 

[-Ken-]

This is going to be the last long post in a while that I promise Kaoz to make a debate, anyhow,

I don't know, maybe it's because you are correct in saying that they were close in one way or another (we agree on this part, the only difference is that you include special moves and I don't), and now they don't seem to be. Why is the conclusion here that Marui is worse than his stats suggest?

So, why is the conclusion not that he's worse? If you want specific example from Marui, we saw Marui playstyle already. He actually used his volley move in all 3 matches that he's play in so far that we see on screen. That's actually 100% of on screen match that we saw him play. The other match against Jackal was completely off scene. We do not see a single panel.

And if you agree that Jackal and Marui are close to each other and that you say before that Marui is not a high tier character, then I don't have much to argue about, really.

I don't see how I do. I am assuming what we've been shown, you're assuming something we haven't been shown. Like I said, I can easily prove my point by looking through the manga and seeing that there's nothing else.

Except you are not assuming what we've been shown since we're not shown anything at all. The whole match, except the exchange in the beginning was completely off scene.

You're assuming that "things" are happening off scene. Players not using their special move is an "event" that happen in the match. If we're not shown that match, then assuming that doesn't have any extra proof. Lack of proof is not a proof.

If this match, we only know the score. That's it.

Let's see Fuwa vs Yukimura match, we can assume,

1. Fuwa win only 1 point, and the rest is long volley.
2. Fuwa was winning in many games (If we were to assume that he keep winning point, since he's the only one shown to win point in that match)
3. Yukimura was 6-6 with Fuwa or whatever score it is when Yips occur.

Is any of them not an assumption? They all can fit with what we've seen (1 point that Fuwa win). The only correct statement is to make say,

1. Fuwa win 1 point.

Similarly, the only confirm point here is

1. Marui beat Jackal in a very close tiebreaker.

Nothing else is confirm.

Eh?
Also, CE was something he somehow accessed in a pinch, like how many characters access a new state for the first time. Its only in a pinch and they need to be pushed again to access it properly.
Although I do concede that its odd he didn't bring it out against Shiraishi.

On this, actually, when Fuji was against Kirihara, he was "forced" to use closed eyes, so it's not like he really "unlock" the move. It's not until when he's push against Niou that he truly used it out of his own will.

 

[Ninomiya]

On this, actually, when Fuji was against Kirihara, he was "forced" to use closed eyes, so it's not like he really "unlock" the move. It's not until when he's push against Niou that he truly used it out of his own will.

What? No. Why have people concluded this?

Fuji didn't get CE naturally though. He unlocked it.
When he first played, he had to hit from muscle-memory. In fact, he was getting eaten alive by Kirihara.
He then gradually managed to access it. He gradually began to tap into his hearing ability.
He used it to counter blindness but it was because he himself decided to try and focus his hearing (like a gotdamn bat) and get his hearing perfect to use CE.

 

[-Ken-]

He still is not shown to use CE out of his own will until his match with Niou. He can play fine with closed eyes at the end of Kirihara match. But until his match with Niou, he never decide to use it in his match. Hence I say he truly unlock it to use it with his own free will in the match against Niou.

If you disagree, show me a match between then that doesn't involve Fuji eyes going blind. That's not free will.

Being blind and choosing not to see are two different action with whole complete mindset. No, I mean, seriously.

 

[ittadakimasu]

in anime during Fuji vs Kirihara, there's a scene where Yumiko mentioned that Fuji plays according to his opponent strength. & it just against his personality to crush his opponent etc...

if this scene is counted, i would doubt Fuji's stats especially speed & perhaps mental as well. (maybe the power stat is correct. muscle data wont lie)
he's playing Kirihara in a fast-rally match faster than his normal play.
http://mangafox.me/manga/prince_of_tennis/v25/c216/10.html

anyhow i still doubt Fuji's stat because he's good at hiding it. he looked cautious.
If he doesn't let Inui take his data, i dont think he will let the coach take his data.
my doubt is based on my understanding on the manga/anime. others may have understand in differently & it's not wrong as well.
so, there's no strong/definite basis for my doubt as all comments above have argued.

 

[AlexisMeade]

Fuji's data seemed to be accurate since he played Tezuka. If the observation from the coaches only covers up to 6th court, then I'd doubt it. But it seemed like the Tezuka match was observed and taken into account as well. Fuji wouldn't hide his ability, I guess, against Tezuka. Unless what Kikumaru meant by 'why are you having this kind of match' means Fuji didn't play at his best. But I highly doubt that.

---------- Post added at 05:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 PM ----------

Btw, in Fuji's fanbook, it was shown in his daily routine that he trained hitting balls with his eyes closed. So maybe he mastered CE after Shiraishi.

 

[Kaoz]

@ittadakimasu
Due to it being inaccurate or at times even contradicting, we tend to disregard the anime during discussions.

Except you are not assuming what we've been shown since we're not shown anything at all. The whole match, except the exchange in the beginning was completely off scene.

You're assuming that "things" are happening off scene. Players not using their special move is an "event" that happen in the match. If we're not shown that match, then assuming that doesn't have any extra proof. Lack of proof is not a proof.

Since Sai mentioned it in the fanbook thread, I guess I can bring it up here as well. Basically in the fanbook, Konomi has listed the boosts the MSers got during the team shuffle from events during the match. And I am of the belief that he has actually drawn every one of those instances for us (although especially in Atobe's case it's pretty much impossible to say which boost happens when exactly due to his match being so long), or put them in the commentary.

In other words, if there is nothing shown or said, I don't think Konomi gives the characters boosts and whatever their base stats are is what counts.
You can either count that as Marui's higher total being handicapped by his playstyle, or you could see it as him having improved more during the camp, I personally think it's the latter though.

 

[-Ken-]

Like I say before, lack of evidence is lack of evidence at best. It is not an evidence. I don't mind arguing, but you have to stop pretending that lack of evidence can count as an evidence. There is lack of evidence that Horio right now is weaker than Byoudoin. Can I take it that Horio is stronger than Byoudonin? Does that sound stupid? yes, it is meant to sound stupid. Lack of evidence simply means no evidence. It doesn't mean anything else, at all. I'll wait to read Marui match report before I say more, though, as that's possibly an evidence. Now, that'll be an actual evidence. But then again, if mountain court is unrecord as a whole, it still wouldn't show that there's difference in improvement between the two players. If both are them are record, though, we can finally compare the two. Well, I'll be waiting to read it regardless.

And well, and you stated, if "if there is nothing shown or said, I don't think Konomi gives the characters boosts and whatever their base stats are is what counts.". There is nothing shown so far that Marui stats improve more than Jackal ever since their last match. So, I don't think Konomi gives the characters boosts and whatever their base stats are is what counts.​ How I see it is that I just take the base stats for what they are, and you take it by assuming that there's an improvement.

So since Shuuji vs Oni match is off-scene, do you think they are playing with just their base stats? Nanjiroh vs #1 player of the world is off-scene. Do you think they are just playing with their base stats? I know characters in PoT are idiots, but they aren't that stupid.

 

[Kaoz]

So since Shuuji vs Oni match is off-scene, do you think they are playing with just their base stats? Nanjiroh vs #1 player of the world is off-scene. Do you think they are just playing with their base stats? I know characters in PoT are idiots, but they aren't that stupid.

Tanegashima vs Oni didn't happen in the same sense that Marui vs Jackal didn't happen. The latter actually appeared in the storyline and Konomi still chose not to show us anything from it. The former is something we've only heard of.
If you asked me about something like Oni vs Byoudouin though, then yes, I do believe that they didn't use any special moves outside of the instances we've seen them (i.e. one Pirates of the American, one 6 Ball Strike, one Snake Charmer of India, one Glowing Shot, and Kijin).

---------- Post added October 24, 2013 at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was October 23, 2013 at 06:33 PM ----------

Actually, something I just realized. With that logic, Niou never had to return Mach in the tiebreak of the first set, Ochi just didn't hit it against him. I know this sounds stupid, and it is, but that way that score at least makes sense. Also, it's not like that hasn't happened before: see Atobe vs Ryoma where Atobe stopped using Tannhauser for some of his service games despite Ryoma not being able to return it (and if he had kept using it, Atobe would have won the match 6-2 or so).

 

[-Ken-]

Atobe not using Tranhauser was significant, so it's shown on scene. It's not a normal play. In PoT, I think normal play, based on match that are shown on scene, involve players using their special move, which majority of the match is that way.

On Ochi, I'll be more lean to believe if his EVERY serve shown on scene is not Mach. Every serve that he serve that we are shown are Mach, however.

I guess Momoshiro off scene match means he doesn't need BJK to beat 1st stringer either. We're also skip out on countless Rai and Tezuka Phantom. But the should be using it even off scene. We can probably also guess that Niou is not using syncho anymore off scene or Inui is not using data or waterfall to beat Mitsuya either. Maybe Tachibana and Chitose is not using any move at all when his opponent is going syncho. There's probably countless more I can drag up. But there's hint in the manga that sometimes move are used even when they are shown, like Vanish on Kintarou. Not being on the scene does not guarantee that no special move are use. Same with Kabaji and Kawamura condition before the match end. That also suggest special move being used off scene. We might get more hint if Marui or Bunta move leave a mark on the opponent, but they don't leave a mark.

For me, there's high enough chance base on every match I've seen thus far in the series. Obviously, you say that this is not enough for you. But I can stick with 99% probability of being right.

 

[Kaoz]

I don't object to something being hinted at being used at all, I've even said as much multiple times. The issue is when it's neither shown nor hinted at.

And Atobe not using Tannhauser wasn't shown at all, it was said that he used consecutive ones to take the lead when the score was tied at 4-4, implying that Ryoma wasn't able to return it.

Also, wouldn't Niou actually returning Mach count as one of those events you keep on mentioning? Why wasn't it shown?

 

[-Ken-]

To be honest, Niou getting up from being down on the ground and hitting the ball at all should be special event enough to be shown, but it's not shown. We're just given the score. If Niou on the ground like that, I would think him answering any ball should have been shown. But it's not. Doesn't that mean there is some special moment skip off scene? I don't think it make a difference. Even if it's a normal ball, but Niou was never shown to to hit ANY ball on scene. This should be proof that there can be some wondrous things that are not shown as well.

I do think Marui using his move in EVERY single of on screen match we seen of him are proof enough that he used it against Jackal as well. I really take that as a hint. We only see 1 ball from him that's he's not using that play style. 1 ball. That's it. From the entire series. He even use it against random joke players in the beginning of SPoT, and he's actually playing Singles there. If there are absolutely no on screen match for Marui that he doesn't use any special move, well, I think that's enough of a hint for me. He used it when he's crushing Momoshiro/Kaidoh pair, and also when he's crushing random HS player. Marui certainly doesn't seem to be the type to hold back for me.

 

[Kaoz]

Well, we were shown that he can't serve, multiple times even. On the other hand we were never shown that he can't return, so wouldn't that suggest that he can? It's not shown because it's completely normal for someone to be able to return a normal serve. And going from there, we are left with the idea that he can return serves, but can't return Mach. Yet he had to have returned Ochi's serves.
Like I said, it's really illogical and I'm in complete agreement there, but given what is shown and not shown, I believe Ochi not using Mach anymore to be the most likely explanation.

Also regarding your examples from the other matches which I skipped over last time, when Inui subs in for Renji, Mitsuya comments that Renji has entrusted Inui with the data, implying the use of Data Tennis. Before Momoshiro hits the BJK, Kenya yells at him, saying that no matter how often Momoshiro tries, Jack Knife won't work against Bakyuun. This could be read as Momoshiro having used JK off-screen as well, and following our theories, BJK really is only a variation of the JK.
Regarding WoK, I wouldn't say it's out of the question that they didn't hit Kamikakushi or Abare Dama, since Kamikakushi wasn't effective earlier in the match and Abare Dama probably can't be hit that easily, so Washio/Suzuki might have been able to seal it in Synchro.

Like I said, I'm completely fine with implications that moves were used, but in the cases of Ochi and Marui/Jackal, those implications just don't exist in the respective matches as far as I can tell.

EDIT: I guess something else in this context. What about the Tezuka Phantom Niou hit? Did he really do ~50 and did Ochi/Mouri find a way to break it half the time (or target Atobe on the points during which Niou didn't have to touch the ball and messed up at some point)? Or did he stop hitting them after 6-6 and started again at 47-48? I think there's an implication that he may have hit 50 or so, but it's still an interesting question to consider in my opinion.

 

[ittadakimasu]

wait. i thought the stats is given by the U17 coach? (sure enough Konomi is the mind behind it...but the stats is given from the coach perspective right?)