Discussion - With 100 chapters released, how do you feel about Mokushiroku no Yonkishi so far? | Page 2 | MangaHelpers



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Discussion With 100 chapters released, how do you feel about Mokushiroku no Yonkishi so far?

Undina

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The bad parenting allusion, Demonspeed , was at Mel acting out in his ecchi ways around Elizabeth( I'd also blame her for not stopping him, especially in these circumstances), and that around Tristan. Looking from the outside, we can easily call it silly ecchi fanservice, but this time around it's exactly played in the way Nakaba supposedly wanted it to not be. Looking from the inside, it's parents being gropey in front of their own kid. I doubt that's how any of us were raised, or that it's any way we'de be raising our own children.
 

Demonspeed

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The bad parenting allusion, Demonspeed , was at Mel acting out in his ecchi ways around Elizabeth( I'd also blame her for not stopping him, especially in these circumstances), and that around Tristan. Looking from the outside, we can easily call it silly ecchi fanservice, but this time around it's exactly played in the way Nakaba supposedly wanted it to not be. Looking from the inside, it's parents being gropey in front of their own kid. I doubt that's how any of us were raised, or that it's any way we'de be raising our own children.
That's one flaw they have but Meliodas isn't portrayed as a bad parent. Obviously that behavior of his is bad and Tristan doesn't like seeing his parents doing that but he still admires both. So far, it's Tristan who seems to give him the cold shoulder despite his father's efforts.

Ban let Lancelot drink alcohol when he was a kid but overall he is a good father, admired by his son as well.
 

Undina

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That's one flaw they have but Meliodas isn't portrayed as a bad parent. Obviously that behavior of his is bad and Tristan doesn't like seeing his parents doing that but he still admires both. So far, it's Tristan who seems to give him the cold shoulder despite his father's efforts.

Ban let Lancelot drink alcohol when he was a kid but overall he is a good father, admired by his son as well.
And in my original comment I acknowledged the fact that overall they are good parents, with this one issue, which still falls under the problems of parenting and education parents give their children. Ofc, with both Lance and Tristan the incidents spur opposite reactions, Lance finds the alcohol uninteresting cause it doesn't affect him(IIRC) in any way and the situation lampshades how Ban wanted to tease him(though irl that would verge on emotional abuse, but eh), Tristan is freaked out/too flustered by anything remotely sexual/flirtatious or lets the signals from interested girls fly over his head...apparently. There are things from his dynamic with his parents that lead into his holding himself to too high standards, methinks. And when he can't meet them, he ends up envious and jealous of those who casually do.

And I never said anything about Tristan not admiring/adoring both parents. Their making mistakes in raising him(being remotely bad parents, for the borderline extreme PDA) doesn't (have to) automatically translate to deep resentment from the child. It just ends up shaping his view of the world or self in ways that may not benefit him in the long run. Besides, Tristan's "fettered" theme is set in juxtaposition with Mel's current casually "loose" behaviour. So something from Mel's current attitude bothers Tristan a lot and does influence Tristan's trying too hard to be the perfect knight, the ever respectful and galant young man. The way he rejects aspects of himself, Tristan makes it clear he rejects aspects of his own father he may or may not have inherited, including the very instinctive fighting style when "high on PoD".

However, this sort of fleshing out I'm enjoying a lot in the sequel, knowing the parents and getting to know the children comes much easier and clearer, with enough comebacks to on page interactions, and this early enough in the story too. Hope that Lance gets more time to interact with Ban and Elaine than we got to meet Zhivago or the glimpses of Ban's childhood.
 

Meliodaf

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Rereading Undina’s post reminded me, I really don’t like Gawain. I’ve made it clear in the past that I don’t particularly care for anyone who uses Sunshine but she is certainly the most egregious.
 

Demonspeed

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And in my original comment I acknowledged the fact that overall they are good parents, with this one issue, which still falls under the problems of parenting and education parents give their children. Ofc, with both Lance and Tristan the incidents spur opposite reactions, Lance finds the alcohol uninteresting cause it doesn't affect him(IIRC) in any way and the situation lampshades how Ban wanted to tease him(though irl that would verge on emotional abuse, but eh), Tristan is freaked out/too flustered by anything remotely sexual/flirtatious or lets the signals from interested girls fly over his head...apparently. There are things from his dynamic with his parents that lead into his holding himself to too high standards, methinks. And when he can't meet them, he ends up envious and jealous of those who casually do.

And I never said anything about Tristan not admiring/adoring both parents. Their making mistakes in raising him(being remotely bad parents, for the borderline extreme PDA) doesn't (have to) automatically translate to deep resentment from the child. It just ends up shaping his view of the world or self in ways that may not benefit him in the long run. Besides, Tristan's "fettered" theme is set in juxtaposition with Mel's current casually "loose" behaviour. So something from Mel's current attitude bothers Tristan a lot and does influence Tristan's trying too hard to be the perfect knight, the ever respectful and galant young man. The way he rejects aspects of himself, Tristan makes it clear he rejects aspects of his own father he may or may not have inherited, including the very instinctive fighting style when "high on PoD".

However, this sort of fleshing out I'm enjoying a lot in the sequel, knowing the parents and getting to know the children comes much easier and clearer, with enough comebacks to on page interactions, and this early enough in the story too. Hope that Lance gets more time to interact with Ban and Elaine than we got to meet Zhivago or the glimpses of Ban's childhood.
I mean, even IRL I am sure most kids don't believe that their parents were perfect.

I don't know if Tristan is behaving as a classic knight because of Meliodas but he is definitely wrong when he thinks that Meliodas doesn't take him seriously or is partial to Lancelot.

My bad, I shouldn't have written something positive about Gawain in a thread made by you! I genuinely didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

I found your reaction kind of funny, but since you created this thread, it's better to respect your limits! I wanted to share some information about sources and possible references, but deleted it whatsoever!
This is a forum :lmao. As long as you stay civil it's fine. It's not like we agree on everything.
 

Undina

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I don't know if Tristan is behaving as a classic knight because of Meliodas but he is definitely wrong when he thinks that Meliodas doesn't take him seriously or is partial to Lancelot.
He still considers Mel a ruffian in some respects(particularly the ecchi outbursts, even the other kids getting exposed to his antics are embarrassed...well, those who aren't Percy), and as for the belief that the parents aren't perfect...that is not the issue at all...what's awkward and embarrassing and icky to most kids(and people, generally speaking) is being aware(or worse, intentionally made aware, by the very parents) that said mother and father have a s*x life. Sure, everyone acknowledges that reality to some extent, but having it rubbed in your face is in a whole different realm from awkward.
This was my only issue, not Tristan's quest for validation, at some point during adolescence every child yearns to be seen as their parents'/family's pride and joy and be shown that clearly and abundantly. He's missing the proof of it because of his fears and flaws in confidence, but I'm not even debating that.
I repeat, what I brought up originally and is my only issue with Mel's parenting, is his flaunting his horniness for his wife in front of their one and only child, who's pubescent and undergoing some changes himself. I don't expect Mel to be a perfect father, but he's been criticised for his ecchi conduct by too many people already to miss the fact that parents don't do that around their or other people's children. If he misses the memo about not doing it in adult company either, mmmkay, but at least let the kids deal with their teenage issues without adding to them, smh.
 

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I share the sentiment that the first 100 chapters of the sequel were not quite as good as NnT's equivalent, but that they were much better than the later parts of the original series. However, I'm not entirely sure this is a fair comparison, because the 100 chapter milestone in the sequel doesn't coincide with the end of the first act of the story like it did in NnT. Nakaba seems to be taking things a little slower this time around, so we'll probably have to wait another year or so to see how all these ongoing storylines actually pan out. A strong finish could still potentially elevate the first act of the sequel above that of NnT, at least in my eyes.

To elaborate on some of the aspects that I thought NnT did better than the sequel, the first thing that comes to mind is that the premise was a lot more original. Most if not the vast majority of this type of shonen manga feature a relatively young and inexperienced group of main characters learning about the world and growing stronger along their journey. The Sins represented pretty much an inversion of this premise as they were all incredibly powerful and experienced warriors right from the start. Their adventure was like a 'New Game+' mode in a video game where you can replay the game from the beginning with the endgame characters that you used to beat the final boss, generally leading to a pretty easy time. The Sins had a very easy time as well, but Nakaba managed to keep things exciting by making them hide their strength until the stronger enemies started showing up. On that note, the 'monster of the week' pattern that some see as a weak point of the sequel was also present in the original series, but back then it may not have been as noticeable since most of the enemies were generally not taken very seriously and they weren't the focus of the arcs. I'd argue the scenarios featured in the arcs were also more varied and interesting. The sequel has so far been about the main group arriving in a new town or village and saving it or themselves from an enemy attack. This is a far cry from things like the Sins visiting the Capital of the Dead or deciding to their mettle against one another in a fight festival.

There are certain areas where the sequel has managed to outdo its predecessor. Notably, the main cast is much more personally involved in the central conflict this time around. In NnT, Elizabeth was trying to save her family and kingdom, Meliodas wanted to protect Elizabeth and to prevent the revival of the demons, and King had to settle things with Helbram. The rest of the Sins were basically just along for the ride since Liones was coming after them. Ban even tried to kill Meliodas while Hendy was still alive and kicking, because Ban was focused on something else entirely. In contrast we have Percy and now Team Tristan who have lost loved ones to the Knights of Chaos, Lancelot who saw his mentor join Camelot, Nasiens and Anne whose homes were attacked and almost destroyed, and Gawain who is related to Arthur by blood. With Jade's death, Donny is the only member of the main cast in the sequel who doesn't have some kind of personal beef with Arthur and his knights. Speaking of, I'd say the major enemies are another strong point of the sequel. Arthur is much more interesting and charismatic as an antagonist than Hendy ever was, while Ironside is a nice mix of sympathetic motives and very heinous measures. Arthur will most likely eventually be revealed to have been under some kind of evil influence like Hendy and Dreyfus, but hopefully Ironside gets to die as a proper villain.

In conclusion, while I favor NnT's first 100 chapters over the sequel's, I think a strong finale could solidify the first act of the sequel as superior to that of NnT. Jade's death was already a major curve ball as I didn't expect anyone in the main group to die this early on and especially not against such a minor enemy. I'm curious if there's some greater meaning behind this development, because while I was writing this post it occurred to me that Hawk's fake out death scene happened in chapter 100 of NnT, the same chapter number as Jade's death in the sequel. The timing between these two is too close to be a coincidence, so I wonder if this is a deliberate gesture on Nakaba's part to establish that, while the sequel mirrors and parallels the original, it's also not afraid to go in a different direction than its predecessor. This could even be tied to the fact that Jade only died here because Arthur defied fate and sent the whole story off its predetermined course. Perhaps we will be seeing a larger deviation between NnT and the sequel from this point onward? Regardless of which series you prefer, I think most people would agree that these kinds of surprising developments help make the sequel feel fresh even as it revisits many familiar concepts.
 

Demonspeed

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I share the sentiment that the first 100 chapters of the sequel were not quite as good as NnT's equivalent, but that they were much better than the later parts of the original series. However, I'm not entirely sure this is a fair comparison, because the 100 chapter milestone in the sequel doesn't coincide with the end of the first act of the story like it did in NnT. Nakaba seems to be taking things a little slower this time around, so we'll probably have to wait another year or so to see how all these ongoing storylines actually pan out. A strong finish could still potentially elevate the first act of the sequel above that of NnT, at least in my eyes.

To elaborate on some of the aspects that I thought NnT did better than the sequel, the first thing that comes to mind is that the premise was a lot more original. Most if not the vast majority of this type of shonen manga feature a relatively young and inexperienced group of main characters learning about the world and growing stronger along their journey. The Sins represented pretty much an inversion of this premise as they were all incredibly powerful and experienced warriors right from the start. Their adventure was like a 'New Game+' mode in a video game where you can replay the game from the beginning with the endgame characters that you used to beat the final boss, generally leading to a pretty easy time. The Sins had a very easy time as well, but Nakaba managed to keep things exciting by making them hide their strength until the stronger enemies started showing up. On that note, the 'monster of the week' pattern that some see as a weak point of the sequel was also present in the original series, but back then it may not have been as noticeable since most of the enemies were generally not taken very seriously and they weren't the focus of the arcs. I'd argue the scenarios featured in the arcs were also more varied and interesting. The sequel has so far been about the main group arriving in a new town or village and saving it or themselves from an enemy attack. This is a far cry from things like the Sins visiting the Capital of the Dead or deciding to their mettle against one another in a fight festival.

There are certain areas where the sequel has managed to outdo its predecessor. Notably, the main cast is much more personally involved in the central conflict this time around. In NnT, Elizabeth was trying to save her family and kingdom, Meliodas wanted to protect Elizabeth and to prevent the revival of the demons, and King had to settle things with Helbram. The rest of the Sins were basically just along for the ride since Liones was coming after them. Ban even tried to kill Meliodas while Hendy was still alive and kicking, because Ban was focused on something else entirely. In contrast we have Percy and now Team Tristan who have lost loved ones to the Knights of Chaos, Lancelot who saw his mentor join Camelot, Nasiens and Anne whose homes were attacked and almost destroyed, and Gawain who is related to Arthur by blood. With Jade's death, Donny is the only member of the main cast in the sequel who doesn't have some kind of personal beef with Arthur and his knights. Speaking of, I'd say the major enemies are another strong point of the sequel. Arthur is much more interesting and charismatic as an antagonist than Hendy ever was, while Ironside is a nice mix of sympathetic motives and very heinous measures. Arthur will most likely eventually be revealed to have been under some kind of evil influence like Hendy and Dreyfus, but hopefully Ironside gets to die as a proper villain.

In conclusion, while I favor NnT's first 100 chapters over the sequel's, I think a strong finale could solidify the first act of the sequel as superior to that of NnT. Jade's death was already a major curve ball as I didn't expect anyone in the main group to die this early on and especially not against such a minor enemy. I'm curious if there's some greater meaning behind this development, because while I was writing this post it occurred to me that Hawk's fake out death scene happened in chapter 100 of NnT, the same chapter number as Jade's death in the sequel. The timing between these two is too close to be a coincidence, so I wonder if this is a deliberate gesture on Nakaba's part to establish that, while the sequel mirrors and parallels the original, it's also not afraid to go in a different direction than its predecessor. This could even be tied to the fact that Jade only died here because Arthur defied fate and sent the whole story off its predetermined course. Perhaps we will be seeing a larger deviation between NnT and the sequel from this point onward? Regardless of which series you prefer, I think most people would agree that these kinds of surprising developments help make the sequel feel fresh even as it revisits many familiar concepts.
You find Ironside's goals sympathetic? He wants to save his son by killing his other son and he has yet to show that he has some kind of love for Percival unlike people like Arthur who is currently missing Merlin or Jericho who had to strengthen her resolve to fight Guila and Lancelot. Ardd, saved Anne, Pellegarde etc. Among the most relevants Knights of Chaos he is the least sympathetic IMO.

I don't think Jade can be compared to Hawk TBH. Everyone saw him as the least relevant of the groups unlike Hawk who was the mascot of the series. I didn't believe Hawk would die but it's true that I didn't believe that Jade would either.
 

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You find Ironside's goals sympathetic? He wants to save his son by killing his other son and he has yet to show that he has some kind of love for Percival unlike people like Arthur who is currently missing Merlin or Jericho who had to strengthen her resolve to fight Guila and Lancelot. Ardd, saved Anne, Pellegarde etc. Among the most relevants Knights of Chaos he is the least sympathetic IMO.

I don't think Jade can be compared to Hawk TBH. Everyone saw him as the least relevant of the groups unlike Hawk who was the mascot of the series. I didn't believe Hawk would die but it's true that I didn't believe that Jade would either.
Ironside's goal is to save his son, which is very much a sympathetic motive. What makes him evil are the lengths to which he is willing to go to achieve said goal. It's not just limited to trying to kill Percy either, as seen when he attempted to kill the citizens of Sistana to seal the demons away. That sort of mentality of being willing to sacrifice the entire world for the sake of your loved ones is sometimes even presented as something heroic. He's essentially a character who started out with good intentions but who was corrupted by a "the ends justify the means" mindset and turned into a total madman. Going by Guinevere's comment about his death it seems like he might ultimately end up being a somewhat tragic character.

As for Hawk and Jade, it's not that these two characters are similar, it's that both series had a death scene timed at pretty much the exact same point in the story, but with completely different results. I think that's an interesting detail especially in the context of everything else, like how Liones was the enemy in the first arc of NnT but this time they're an ally and vice versa for Arthur. Or how the Sins were hunted for past crimes while the KoA are hunted for things they're supposed to do in the future. These opposite death scenes happening at the same time in the two series seem to follow the same pattern of echoing what came before, but with a twist.
 

Brim787

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Nice eye , Vortigern . Flawless .

Your & Yakkun’s posts definitely excel me as a writer , reaffirm my love for the series & keep me coming back everytime .
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

As a matter of fact , I should finally get off my rear & archive all of the musings you’ve both put together .
 

Demonspeed

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Now that the first part of MnY is over, how do you think it compares to NnT's first saga? Maybe I need to reread NnT's first saga but I'd say MnY is better overall. Some arcs are definitely more boring though, like the Kant one.
 

Yakkun

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I don't think NNT's first saga and MnY's first saga had the exact same length, making a direct comparison difficult, at least chapter-wise. In terms of plot, I still think nothing beats NNT's first major saga. Fraudrin was simply too good of a villain there, way too cunning, way too much ahead on the gameboard with a great plan B and despite being thwarted at Liones, he still somehow came out the victor in the end by freeing the Ten Commandments and actually being the one to re-enable the Holy War in this fashion. The writing was simply superb, the characters were all really great and strong and interesting. I just loved it and I still love re-reading that part.

MnY doesn't quite capture that same essence for me. It is hard in general for sequels to live up to the first installment since a lot of the world is by then already established. However, MnY also glossed over some things too fast, had some harder contradictory and retcon-y events happening and the plot doesn't feel like it has really moved much anywhere yet. But that is entirely okay since the manga is still its own thing and it obviously has a different narrative to keep in mind. On the bright side, especially the last couple of chapters were complete mindfucks and subverted expectations on a great level, imo. It's what I love the most when Nakaba is done cooking and serves us chapters like these. Also, in terms of emotional aspects, I think MnY captures me a bit more but that is mostly thanks to Percival. God, I love that boy so much.
 

Demonspeed

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NnT's first saga had exactly 100 chapters so MnY's first part is longer.
 
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