Discussion Zoro Discussion Thread

[nik87]

Zoro's usage is too passive.

Why claim this and say "Sanji was able to locate Kimemo body inside dark waters" right after? Not Sanji, not Luffy, not anyone else we saw so far made an active usage of CoO, FS aside. There are no active in-combat applications of CoO.
Just remembered, Fujitora was using it actively in-combat, for obvious reasons.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Oh no, Zoro s character development is not that horrible. His character is stoic or a muscle head , top fighter of the group. He's no Usopp, Nami, or Chopper.

But let's be real, he's #1 Crew mate to the OK, the Strongest Swordsman. He loves booze, getting stronger, has honor as a person and swordsman. Notable character developments are his aid and assist of Luffy's adventure/task while becoming the best swordsman in the World. He was vital in the fight against Oars, Saved Luffy from Kuma almost sacrificing his life. Shouted at Luffy to get serious within the New World.

He doesn't have a ton, but there is development there. Zoro Is the brute stoic archetype with other attributes, he's simple and it's not boring to my standards.





You keep hammering in the same points thats not moving any conversation on the thread..its not trolling its juss w/e. think about what im trying to get across herr.

Pica was hurt & bleeding by the 1080 Pound Cannon, Zoro cut the stone where Pica was controlling it from. He appearer later with a slash mark..He later finished him off.

I would like to highlight Zoro's low CoO feats. During his Pica fight, Zoro gave up on growing/focusing his CoO to help him win. Instead he utilized his DF weakness of separting the stone he was connected to cornering him down to his fingers.

Sanji was able to locate Kimemo body inside dark waters using CoO, & other good feats showing goods usage.

Zoro's usage is too passive.

Those are traits, much different than character development.

He's loyal to a fault and powerful. That's it.

He has not had any meaningful development as a character (not counting battle development) since he fought Mihawk. Outside of that he is reduced to 1 panel badassness.

If zoro didnt have his battle prowess, he'd be a horrible character

He is exactly like Escanor and I cant unseen it lol

 

[hokageji]

I think you guys must refrain from calling each other trolls. I never thought King Moe's posts were troll just like nik87's post, barring the ones he himself claimed to be.

Regarding Zoro's #1 crewmate, this is absolute and cannot be argued upon. But that goes beyond strength, the reasons are:
1. first crew member to join
2. reflects his opinions to teh captain which the captain respects.

One best example for this is one of my fav lines from One Piece when Luffy says "it feels heavy" pointing to his heart as he feels the pain of beating Usopp for the ship, and Zoro says "its the burden of the captain". As much as i like Sanji, its only Zoro we see how brings about these kinda points to Luffy. The same when Usopp has to join the crew. He acts as a vice captain in all the cases.

Of course, he's loyal to the bone and is #2 of the current strawhats in strength (i still maintain Sanji is nearly as strong but slightly lower) which makes him the right hand of Luffy. But its how in influences Luffy to make the right decision.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think you guys must refrain from calling each other trolls. I never thought King Moe's posts were troll just like nik87's post, barring the ones he himself claimed to be.

Regarding Zoro's #1 crewmate, this is absolute and cannot be argued upon. But that goes beyond strength, the reasons are:
1. first crew member to join
2. reflects his opinions to teh captain which the captain respects.

One best example for this is one of my fav lines from One Piece when Luffy says "it feels heavy" pointing to his heart as he feels the pain of beating Usopp for the ship, and Zoro says "its the burden of the captain". As much as i like Sanji, its only Zoro we see how brings about these kinda points to Luffy. The same when Usopp has to join the crew. He acts as a vice captain in all the cases.

Of course, he's loyal to the bone and is #2 of the current strawhats in strength (i still maintain Sanji is nearly as strong but slightly lower) which makes him the right hand of Luffy. But its how in influences Luffy to make the right decision.

That is derivative of loyalty, which I already address.

Great post tho! Of course I agree with you on the trolling part

 

[hokageji]

That is derivative of loyalty, which I already address.

Yes, but its hard to ascertain that Zoro is more loyal than others wihtout being specific about it and hence the post. I mean, Zoro put his life on the line, but Sanji did something similar in Zou and was ready to do put his life just like Zoro.

But realistically speaking, he can never be a captain, they'll end up in east blue the moment he takes command.

 

[thedude]

Those are traits, much different than character development.

He's loyal to a fault and powerful. That's it.

He has not had any meaningful development as a character (not counting battle development) since he fought Mihawk. Outside of that he is reduced to 1 panel badassness.

If zoro didnt have his battle prowess, he'd be a horrible character

He is exactly like Escanor and I cant unseen it lol

Oh, i think you are maybe going a bit far. He's had good character moments, like fighting Sanji to be the "sacrifice" for Luffy. And of course his scene with Mihawk that lead to the timeskip was definitely a character development, setting aside his dreams for the good of his crew, humbling himself in front of the man he wanted to defeat.

He's no Usopp or Nami or Sanji, but he has had some advancement.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 26, 2019 ---

Yes, but its hard to ascertain that Zoro is more loyal than others wihtout being specific about it and hence the post. I mean, Zoro put his life on the line, but Sanji did something similar in Zou and was ready to do put his life just like Zoro.

But realistically speaking, he can never be a captain, they'll end up in east blue the moment he takes command.

"Zoro, how did we end up on another Sky Island?"

 

[Pirate Queen]

Oh, i think you are maybe going a bit far. He's had good character moments, like fighting Sanji to be the "sacrifice" for Luffy. And of course his scene with Mihawk that lead to the timeskip was definitely a character development, setting aside his dreams for the good of his crew, humbling himself in front of the man he wanted to defeat.

He's no Usopp or Nami or Sanji, but he has had some advancement.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 26, 2019 ---

"Zoro, how did we end up on another Sky Island?"

Zoro taking Luffy's damage is under the umbrella of him showing loyalty to Luffy.

You said I'm going to far but it's an accurate assessment.

Zoro's character development leaves much to be desired. I'm not bashing him nor am I not giving him credit. And if you see it that way I encourage you to read all my comments on the topic and not just the one you are quoting.

I'm addressing his character worth, not anything else. You may ask anyone on here. I'm not biased to either Sanji or Zoro, I call things like i see them.

The conversation about Zoro one-shotting his opponents once he was able to damage them has led me to this realization (that I didnt have until this point) It just that his feats have been so impressive it actually has covered up his faults. He can be perceived as boring.

Even throwing away his pride to be trained by Mihaek was because he realized he was still too weak. And I already addressed that out side of strength and loyalty, he lacks development.

So no, I'm not going to far tho I do encourage you to counter my claims if you can

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2019 ---

"Zoro, how did we end up on another Sky Island?"

SH Crew : "Zoro... how did we end up on Raftel, we dont even have all 4 Rio Poneglyphs!"

Zoro: *Shrugs*

 

[thedude]

Zoro taking Luffy's damage is under the umbrella of him showing loyalty to Luffy.

You said I'm going to far but it's an accurate assessment.

Zoro's character development leaves much to be desired. I'm not bashing him nor am I not giving him credit. And if you see it that way I encourage you to read all my comments on the topic and not just the one you are quoting.

I'm addressing his character worth, not anything else. You may ask anyone on here. I'm not biased to either Sanji or Zoro, I call things like i see them.

The conversation about Zoro one-shotting his opponents once he was able to damage them has led me to this realization (that I didnt have until this point) It just that his feats have been so impressive it actually has covered up his faults. He can be perceived as boring.

Even throwing away his pride to be trained by Mihaek was because he realized he was still too weak. And I already addressed that out side of strength and loyalty, he lacks development.

So no, I'm not going to far tho I do encourage you to counter my claims if you can

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2019 ---

SH Crew : "Zoro... how did we end up on Raftel, we dont even have all 4 Rio Poneglyphs!"

Zoro: *Shrugs*

I wasn't saying that to argue, I just think there has been *some* character growth, whereas you say none. It's a matter of degree really.

I do agree in some respects that he's been a "boring" character apart from his fights (he is wandering lost half the time, naps 1/4 of the time, and does cool sword stuff the remaining 1/4 of the time). I've said here and on other threads that my favorite member of the crew is Usopp because I feel like he gets to have more real "character" growth moments than the rest, and as a weak character, I think he's most interesting. Nami as well.

I just think it's too easy to create huge umbrellas and then sweep aside any character development to them. "He just wanted to be stronger and loyal". Sure, but that doesn't explain the whole situation is what I'm saying. He also wants to be the strongest swordsman, really really bad. But in that moment, he assessed his life and found something bigger than himself, allowed himself to be humbled before an "enemy" and asked for help. That is character development.

Otherwise, i think we agree on most things here.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2019 ---

SH Crew : "Zoro... how did we end up on Raftel, we dont even have all 4 Rio Poneglyphs!"

Zoro: *Shrugs*

SH Crew: Zoro...after you shrugged we ended up on Fishman Island again...how did that just happen???

 

[hokageji]

"Zoro, how did we end up on another Sky Island?"

Zoro taking Luffy's damage is under the umbrella of him showing loyalty to Luffy.

This needs its own thread.
"Zoro: How did we reach this ocean? I can see fish from all the other oceans here"

Even throwing away his pride to be trained by Mihaek was because he realized he was still too weak. And I already addressed that out side of strength and loyalty, he lacks development.

Yea, my point on loyalty is that the others would've probably done the same given the opportunity, but lets consider the fact that Zoro got it and did as as proof that his loyalty surpasses the others.
He is aasured to be the vice-captain in regards to strength and loyalty.

 

[M3J]

Zoro had some development. He went from threatening to kill Luffy if he ever got in the way of Zoro's ambition to willing to sacrifice his dream for Luffy's sake. Zoro's development isn't so rapid or obvious though, I guess. I'm not sure if Zoro really had his own arc yet like Nami, Sanji, and others.

 

[thedude]

Zoro had some development. He went from threatening to kill Luffy if he ever got in the way of Zoro's ambition to willing to sacrifice his dream for Luffy's sake. Zoro's development isn't so rapid or obvious though, I guess. I'm not sure if Zoro really had his own arc yet like Nami, Sanji, and others.

He hasn't, and his flashback showing his history pre-SH crew was a tiny little thing where his friend died off panel by falling down stairs. Lol, i still laugh at how random that was. "Kuina died last night, she fell down some stairs". Today Oda would show her head bouncing off each step for 3 chapters....his pace has really slowed down lol.

But Sanji didn't really get an arc until just now (I suppose Baratie was more of an arc then Zoro's introduction, so Sanji was slightly ahead from the start), and I imagine he'll get one eventually.

 

[M3J]

Perhaps we'll get a more complex Zoro but otherwise with some few changes, he's still the same stoic guy, albeit a bit more laidback.

 

[thedude]

This needs its own thread.
"Zoro: How did we reach this ocean? I can see fish from all the other oceans here"

His best "getting lost" moment was Alabasta, when the Marines told him to go north and he interpreted that as "climb that tower".

 

[XXGenesis]

Why claim this and say "Sanji was able to locate Kimemo body inside dark waters" right after? Not Sanji, not Luffy, not anyone else we saw so far made an active usage of CoO, FS aside. There are no active in-combat applications of CoO.
Just remembered, Fujitora was using it actively in-combat, for obvious reasons.

Luffy & Katakuri both were making active usage of CoO during combat. Luffy's whole thing was forcing his CoO to Katakuri's lv.

Zoro actively used CoO to try and find Pica, he pretty much gave up on that route; Unlike Luffy.

Sanji finding Kimemon body is an active use.

Passive usage would be Luffy vs fodder early Wano, or Monster trio sensing Caribou in Ryuuga Palace.

Zoro has very low passive & active feats.

So yea, Zoro letting his guard down ok, i understand the reason, even though it's silly. His passive CoO could have kicked in.

Those are traits, much different than character development.

He's loyal to a fault and powerful. That's it.

He has not had any meaningful development as a character (not counting battle development) since he fought Mihawk. Outside of that he is reduced to 1 panel badassness.

If zoro didnt have his battle prowess, he'd be a horrible character

He is exactly like Escanor and I cant unseen it lol

Pretty much everything the dude said in return to you.

If you find him boring thats fine. That's your opinion, I even understand it, Zoro is kinda boring before Enies Lobby imo, compared to everyone else, but he's strong and kool that's all I need personaly.

His loyalty during thriller bark was development to hoe serious he takes his #1 Mate position & his unwavering loyalty to his captain a man he believe will really become PK

Like Dude said. It's the range that matters. Your saying none, that's simply not true. His development is there, it's just low compared to the other members. I believe it's simply the role Zoro plays as the #2 & personality we've been introduced to. But I agree that he needs more.

I get what your saying, Escabor comarison is your opinion. But it's not none. It's some lol

@hokageji
If your trolling for too long, your gonna get called a troll. Ppl need thicker skin, theres plenty worst names to be called lml. I don't care who likes who. I don't like unwarranted character bashing or hating..constructive criticism is kool so is harsh criticism. When a thread is about a specific character, no need to mention others then pit, them against another in a tit for tat. While bashing and hating and regular critism start a to shrink into un progressive bait war.

I like peace as much as everyone else. But we gotta let each other know when we"re being silly,dismissive,ignorant, unaware, lack attention, speculating, stating facts, or being an ass. In our posts

 

[Pirate Queen]

Luffy & Katakuri both were making active usage of CoO during combat. Luffy's whole thing was forcing his CoO to Katakuri's lv.

Zoro actively used CoO to try and find Pica, he pretty much gave up on that route; Unlike Luffy.

Sanji finding Kimemon body is an active use.

Passive usage would be Luffy vs fodder early Wano, or Monster trio sensing Caribou in Ryuuga Palace.

Zoro has very low passive & active feats.

So yea, Zoro letting his guard down ok, i understand the reason, even though it's silly. His passive CoO could have kicked in.




Pretty much everything the dude said in return to you.

If you find him boring thats fine. That's your opinion, I even understand it, Zoro is kinda boring before Enies Lobby imo, compared to everyone else, but he's strong and kool that's all I need personaly.

His loyalty during thriller bark was development to hoe serious he takes his #1 Mate position & his unwavering loyalty to his captain a man he believe will really become PK

Like Dude said. It's the range that matters. Your saying none, that's simply not true. His development is there, it's just low compared to the other members. I believe it's simply the role Zoro plays as the #2 & personality we've been introduced to. But I agree that he needs more.

I get what your saying, Escabor comarison is your opinion. But it's not none. It's some lol

@hokageji
If your trolling for too long, your gonna get called a troll. Ppl need thicker skin, theres plenty worst names to be called lml. I don't care who likes who. I don't like unwarranted character bashing or hating..constructive criticism is kool so is harsh criticism. When a thread is about a specific character, no need to mention others then pit, them against another in a tit for tat. While bashing and hating and regular critism start a to shrink into un progressive bait war.

I like peace as much as everyone else. But we gotta let each other know when we"re being silly,dismissive,ignorant, unaware, lack attention, speculating, stating facts, or being an ass. In our posts

I never said he had NO character development.

My first post I said he didnt have much (some) to begin with Nd my subsequent posts I stated that his development leaves much to be desired.

At no point did I say he has 0 development.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 27, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 27, 2019 ---

Yea, my point on loyalty is that the others would've probably done the same given the opportunity, but lets consider the fact that Zoro got it and did as as proof that his loyalty surpasses the others.
He is aasured to be the vice-captain in regards to strength and loyalty.

It seems we are in agreement here so I'm unsure the point you are trying to get across. I know his loyalty is #1, never said it wasnt.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 27, 2019 ---

I wasn't saying that to argue, I just think there has been *some* character growth, whereas you say none. It's a matter of degree really.

I do agree in some respects that he's been a "boring" character apart from his fights (he is wandering lost half the time, naps 1/4 of the time, and does cool sword stuff the remaining 1/4 of the time). I've said here and on other threads that my favorite member of the crew is Usopp because I feel like he gets to have more real "character" growth moments than the rest, and as a weak character, I think he's most interesting. Nami as well.

I just think it's too easy to create huge umbrellas and then sweep aside any character development to them. "He just wanted to be stronger and loyal". Sure, but that doesn't explain the whole situation is what I'm saying. He also wants to be the strongest swordsman, really really bad. But in that moment, he assessed his life and found something bigger than himself, allowed himself to be humbled before an "enemy" and asked for help. That is character development.

Otherwise, i think we agree on most things here.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2019 ---

SH Crew: Zoro...after you shrugged we ended up on Fishman Island again...how did that just happen???

I didnt think you were trying to argue. Sorry if I came off that was, I was just trying to address your post (probably more directly than I should have lol)

I was just wondering if you had a different way of viewing him.

These past few days I have actually had to reassess how I view Zoro and my Escanor comparison if him is damn near perfect as far as I can tell(except Zoro threw away his pride and Escanor is... the Sin of Pride lol), but that comes with cons as well.

The following is my personal opinion:

Pros:
-Loyal to a fault
-Strongest SH outside of Luffy
-Willing to throw away his pride for others
-Ambition (WSS)

Cons
- Lack of character development
- Boring fights (He is unchallenged often)
-Willing to throw away pride for others (both a pro and con)

 

[nik87]

Luffy & Katakuri both were making active usage of CoO during combat. Luffy's whole thing was forcing his CoO to Katakuri's lv.

Zoro actively used CoO to try and find Pica, he pretty much gave up on that route; Unlike Luffy.

Sanji finding Kimemon body is an active use.

Passive usage would be Luffy vs fodder early Wano, or Monster trio sensing Caribou in Ryuuga Palace.

Zoro has very low passive & active feats.

So yea, Zoro letting his guard down ok, i understand the reason, even though it's silly. His passive CoO could have kicked in.

I said Future Sight aside...

What I consider active usage of CoO is in the middle of a battle, when you are going back and forth with the enemy, while they are kicking/punching/slashing at the opponent and such application we do not have when it comes to serious battles. Few scenes of mocking the fodder is all we got. Everything that Luffy did in fight with Katakuri can be tied to future sight, that's what he was constantly trying to do and it was a pretty dumb way of doing it. Lots of plot armor just in those scenes, in the middle of hits exchange he closes his eyes and fails to see the future and gets wrecked. Good luck doing that against a swordsman or if Katakuri used a spear at that moment and landed a clean hit on his chest, either way, Luffy would have been dead.

Sanji finding Kinemon's body part is passive non-combat usage, simple observation. Zoro found Pica right when he was emerging from the ground, also passive usage. Sanji and Zoro picking up Vergo is passive as well, just as picking up Caribou.

As I said, FS aside, we still have to see active mid-combat usage of CoO from any character not named Fujitora.

 

[hokageji]

Zoro had some development. He went from threatening to kill Luffy if he ever got in the way of Zoro's ambition to willing to sacrifice his dream for Luffy's sake. Zoro's development isn't so rapid or obvious though, I guess. I'm not sure if Zoro really had his own arc yet like Nami, Sanji, and others.

I think the major concern about the development is post time-skip. Luffy's got so much attention and rightfully, but it leaves us hungry for more. While Sanji got an important arc for himself, Zoro hasnt.
I dont think we really need arcs specific to the other strawhats. WCI touched so much on Sanji's background but barely on his strengths. I woudlnt be interested in Zoro's background as much and hope we get to see him grow more.

If your trolling for too long, your gonna get called a troll. Ppl need thicker skin, theres plenty worst names to be called lml. I don't care who likes who. I don't like unwarranted character bashing or hating..constructive criticism is kool so is harsh criticism. When a thread is about a specific character, no need to mention others then pit, them against another in a tit for tat. While bashing and hating and regular critism start a to shrink into un progressive bait war.

I like peace as much as everyone else. But we gotta let each other know when we"re being silly,dismissive,ignorant, unaware, lack attention, speculating, stating facts, or being an ass. In our posts

How does calling out for trolling add to the discussion? I wont discuss anymore on this, lets move on.

It seems we are in agreement here so I'm unsure the point you are trying to get across. I know his loyalty is #1, never said it wasnt.

Well, i was trying to point out the specific case of loyalty, i wasnt disagreeing with you but just trying to add more to it... guess dont have the best writing skills :\

 

[XXGenesis]

I said Future Sight aside...

I didn't know what the hell you meant by FS..i know now.

I'm not putting aside FS because its the most practical, best usage of active CoO.

What I consider active usage of CoO is in the middle of a battle, when you are going back and forth with the enemy, while they are kicking/punching/slashing at the opponent and such application we do not have when it comes to serious battles. Few scenes of mocking the fodder is all we got. Everything that Luffy did in fight with Katakuri can be tied to future sight, that's what he was constantly trying to do and it was a pretty dumb way of doing it. Lots of plot armor just in those scenes, in the middle of hits exchange he closes his eyes and fails to see the future and gets wrecked. Good luck doing that against a swordsman or if Katakuri used a spear at that moment and landed a clean hit on his chest, either way, Luffy would have been dead.

Agreed. We are defining active usage of CoO the same. When it was introduced it kinda seemed like a passive ability that will be used as a extra 6th sense;intuition kinda thing. As we've seen its passive use, or subtle use, when context is given that CoO was uses to dodge.

FS shouldn't be left from the conversation. Because it's the practical active use of CoO; Or semi passive use like Cobi who can read/visualize a newspaper without seeing it.

Thing is, Oda has verified that FS like Katakuri is advance & so is Luffy's but its more of a active CoO than passive. As to the method Luffy used to achieve this, was yes impractical at times. However, Katakuri mentions you need to be calm. So to attain such high focus and level. We are gonna see characters like Luffy & Zoro close their eyes..In Luffy's defense he was able to endure those attacks, he was betting his life, he was outmatched..& wanted to progress through the challenge...unlike Zoro who juss used his opponents short comings to his advantage

Sanji finding Kinemon's body part is passive non-combat usage, simple observation. Zoro found Pica right when he was emerging from the ground, also passive usage. Sanji and Zoro picking up Vergo is passive as well, just as picking up Caribou.

As I said, FS aside, we still have to see active mid-combat usage of CoO from any character not named Fujitora.

Sanji finding Kimemon was semi-passive..or passive w/e...He was actively using it to accomplish a task..Zoro has not..

This could be head cannon or misread of the situation, I'm not emotionally tied to it being false or not. But Zoro may have used CoO to block Hordys water bullets..

Only other active CoO I can think of..

 

[nik87]

I didn't know what the hell you meant by FS..i know now.

Yeah, I get confused by those abbreviations sometimes too, when people use some which I am not familiar with.

I'm not putting aside FS because its the most practical, best usage of active CoO.

I am, because there are only 2 characters who can use it, possibly 3 if Aokiji has it as well and on Luffy, it feels like a plot element which will reappear only for a specific scene(s) and isnt being used since his fight with Katakuri. So basically, it's only Katakuri...
But yeah, we do agree that FS is the only active usage of CoO but the problem is that it is so rare.

"Sanji finding Kimemon was semi-passive..or passive w/e...He was actively using it to accomplish a task..Zoro has not..
This could be head cannon or misread of the situation, I'm not emotionally tied to it being false or not. But Zoro may have used CoO to block Hordys water bullets..
Only other active CoO I can think of.. "
Sanji looking for Kinemon parts is same like Zoro looking for Pica before he emerges, actively scanning for them, same situation but since it's not mid-combat I call it passive.
Yes, Zoro probably did use CoO to block Hody's water bullets but we mentioned such scenes, Luffy dodging blades in coliseum too, as instances of mocking the fodder...
I think we basically agree here.

 

[hokageji]

Sanji looking for Kinemon parts is same like Zoro looking for Pica before he emerges, actively scanning for them, same situation but since it's not mid-combat I call it passive.

If it is, then its proof that Zoro's CoO is worse than Sanji's. Zoro didnt use observation haki against Pica, he just kept cutting the stones and kept isolating Pica so the real ones emerged. To me, this was way cooler than identifying Pica and attacking him in one shot, or one slice.

I agree with you otherwise.